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Third-Party Software and You


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2 hours ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

've been downloading all sorts of programs, from games to drivers & more. If anything that I'm running in the background triggers a red flag in their system,

 

On 2022-08-26 at 11:20 PM, eboomer said:

Like... am I not allowed to have Discord or Spotify running in the background while Warframe is running?  Do I need to close all of my hardware drivers, especially my mouse and keyboard drivers that I use for custom lighting) to not get banned?  Am I allowed to have antivirus software running?  Who in the world doesn't have ANY additional software running besides the bare minimum needed to play a video game? 

I don't know how people can assume that any random program can get them banned now. Do any of those inject themselves into Warframe process? No they don't (edit: discord does for overlay, but that is whitelisted by every anticheat and doesn't break EULA as it doesn't alter the gameplay etc.), so warframe doesn't care at all. What Warframe and it's EULA do care about is if a 3rd party app attaches itself to warframe so it can mess with the running process, just like overwolf and every cheatsoftware do.  
 

 

Edited by UmbraAtrox
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32 minutes ago, UmbraAtrox said:

 

I don't know how people can assume that any random program can get them banned now. Do any of those inject themselves into Warframe process? No they don't, so warframe doesn't care at all. What Warframe and it's EULA do care about is if a 3rd party app attaches itself to warframe so it can mess with the running process, just like overwolf and every cheatsoftware do.  
 

 

Transparency makes a world of different for computer-illiterate folks like myself, and for those who worry about conflicts regarding certain programs. With cross-progression on the horizon, every little piece of info that can be scrounged is invaluable. If false red flags have been an issue in the past, players need to know this in order to prepare.

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If you really were computer illiterate, you would say "I don't know any programs that can do that, they aren't on my computer so I should be fine". That is literally how simple the solution is. Wanting information and "needing" to know information is suspicious and counter-indicative of someone who claims ignorance.

I'm calling shenanigans!
Brandon Scott Jones Reaction GIF by CBS

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3 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

If you really were computer illiterate, you would say "I don't know any programs that can do that, they aren't on my computer so I should be fine". That is literally how simple the solution is. Wanting information and "needing" to know information is suspicious and counter-indicative of someone who claims ignorance.

I'm calling shenanigans!
Brandon Scott Jones Reaction GIF by CBS

You're welcome to make whatever claims you want, but I'm not interested in losing years of in-game progress because of some nonsensical program interactions that I'm not aware of.

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44 minutes ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

If false red flags have been an issue in the past

They haven't afaik. 

Apps run in their own little space in memory for security and data integrity reasons. If an appA wanted to read write memory from appB, appB either has to map a space which is accessible to other apps or appA has to attach itself to appB.

Injectors like discordhelper64 or steamapi.dll , whatever teamspeak has etc. are obviously known, whitelisted by virtually every anticheat and don't break tos as they only add their overlay while not messing with the game itself. 

 

Just don't use Overwolf, Cheatengine or any purposemade cheats for warframe and you will be fine. 

Edited by UmbraAtrox
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20 hours ago, UmbraAtrox said:

Injectors like discordhelper64 or steamapi.dll , whatever teamspeak has etc. are obviously known, whitelisted by virtually every anticheat and don't break tos as they only add their overlay while not messing with the game itself. 

Just don't use Overwolf, Cheatengine or any purposemade cheats for warframe and you will be fine. 

That's a fair bit of info to go off of, and it helps put some anxiety to rest. Much appreciated.

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On 2022-08-29 at 6:49 PM, UmbraAtrox said:
  • Are we allowed to READ ram?(read inventory, mastery, map, whatever happens ingame) -- [Yes, solo only]
  • Are we allowed to WRITE ram? -- [Hell no! Don't even try!]

For me it's very crucial to free RAM. I have 8GB and my Windows likes to push a lot of stuffs into Standby memory and after it run out of 8GB... use HDD.

I run RamMap to free "Standby memory" from time to time while running Warframe. Makes gaming much better.

I'm not sure how it's "write" or is it just "freeing" memory.

ps. by reading RAM you can decipher certain data. It could be used for "wrong" stuffs.

On 2022-08-29 at 6:49 PM, UmbraAtrox said:

OT: On another note, i was curious what Staff is posting and stopped at Rebecca when i noticed she has 7050 posts but no matter what i search for i only find the 7 posts shown in her profile. What's up with that? Where did her other 7043 posts go? Would be a waste if they were gone.

https://forums.warframe.com/profile/4-derebecca/
https://forums.warframe.com/search/?&q=can&author=[DE]Rebecca&search_and_or=or
https://forums.warframe.com/search/?&q=you&author=[DE]Rebecca&search_and_or=or
 

Edit: Lol, her posts are definitely disappearing its only 3 now. 

This forum is bad.

First compare 2 things.

- Look for "focus" using forum's search engine. Add "[DE]Rebecca" (just start typing and you will find her), and search for all contents (content type, results in etc). You will find nothing.

- Try using google with

Quote

"[DE]Rebecca" focus site:https://forums.warframe.com

It will find something. It's not perfect but my google fu is not very good. Still you can find posts by DE Rebecca within results with "focus" world.

 

ps. Not sure about admin/mod posts but normal users tends to be hidden from search and locked after some time (year?). After that time you can only google it (as fair I remember).

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1 hour ago, quxier said:

I run RamMap to free "Standby memory" from time to time while running Warframe. Makes gaming much better.

I'm not sure how it's "write" or is it just "freeing" memory.

 

 That's just freeing memory, all that app can do is to tell windows to unallocate space reserved by inactive apps, which might rely on these data and either crash or rebuild. In any case memory gets allocated again as soon as that app becomes active. All you do by "freeing memory"  is to temporarily make space for warframe in physical ram while the background apps which used it to begin with have to realocate space in swap (what you call standby memory)

You should consider getting a 2nd stick of ram, or better get a 16GB kit from your craigslist equivalent. 

 

1 hour ago, quxier said:

 

ps. by reading RAM you can decipher certain data. It could be used for "wrong" stuffs.

No you can't. Windows does not allow you to access any apps ram contents afaik. If you want to access an app's ram you need to hijack the app, which for Warframe breaks EULA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_protection

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14 hours ago, UmbraAtrox said:

All you do by "freeing memory"  is to temporarily make space for warframe in physical ram while the background apps which used it to begin with have to realocate space in swap (what you call standby memory)

Not sure if I get it correctly. "standby memory" is not swap (no HDD usage). It's used for REusing certain resources (e.g. running game again.

14 hours ago, UmbraAtrox said:
16 hours ago, quxier said:

ps. by reading RAM you can decipher certain data. It could be used for "wrong" stuffs.

No you can't. Windows does not allow you to access any apps ram contents afaik. If you want to access an app's ram you need to hijack the app, which for Warframe breaks EULA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_protection

Hmmm.... I guess I could read unused memory (that may contain some trash from previous apps). My knowledge about C is very rusty.

14 hours ago, UmbraAtrox said:

You should consider getting a 2nd stick of ram, or better get a 16GB kit from your craigslist equivalent. 

I have changed from 4 to 8 (it's low end laptop). It's old one so I think I would rather buy new one with more ram (16 or more). But yeah, 8GB is must, 16+ is preferable.

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27 minutes ago, quxier said:

Not sure if I get it correctly. "standby memory" is not swap (no HDD usage). It's used for REusing certain resources (e.g. running game again.

Ye, my bad. Did a googling, apparently standby memory is just space allocated by an app which may be inactive or terminated without unallocating space. TIL how inactive reserved space is called properly.
https://superuser.com/questions/1579851/what-is-standby-memory-in-ms-windows-os

 

 

10 minutes ago, Gojo_Satoru1 said:

I have cheat engine on my computer, but I don't use it when I play warframe, will this cause my account to be banned?

if you don't attach it to warframe it depends on if DE anticheat scans for it or not. If you want to be safe terminate cheatengine when playing games with anticheat. 

 

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1 hour ago, Gojo_Satoru1 said:

I have cheat engine on my computer, but I don't use it when I play warframe, will this cause my account to be banned?

It can, Cheat Engine can be used to cheat with and hooks into your computer's memory which anti-cheats scan for, best bet is after you've had fun in your single player games with it REBOOT your computer to clear the memory and be 100% safe.

Seen so many ban appeals when I worked for an anti-cheat company about I only used Cheat Engine. :facepalm:

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On 2022-09-04 at 12:43 AM, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

a good question i thought of is could you get banned for simply having something like Teamspeak or wallpaper engine running?

I'm going to offer you a quick and dirty...but there' a lot more to be covered.

 

The ban on third party application is for those item which either alter memory or access data that the default game does not (primarily), or secondarily they alter input from the player.  The idea here is not to mess with your client and do something that DE doesn't want.  

 

What do I mean here?  Well, imagine that you have a 10 button combination to draw a weapon, fire, repeat, run 5 meter forward to get items, run 5 meters back, and repeat.  This is the basic idea of camping...and DE frowns upon it because it removes the grind.  Basically, they want players not bots.  Their anti-cheat here generally seems to be input inspection, verification of non repeating inputs, and it's good enough.  As such, it seems like the more consistent the input, for longer, the more likely you are "cheating."  I cannot speak to the voracity of this method...but it seems like they often start with trade bans instead of hard gameplay bans.

 

The memory alteration stuff is harder core hacking.  Imagine if you altered the value for your health to be a constant 1000.  Imagine if you forced rewards such that instead of getting 1 dropped neuroptics you get 10.  Better yet, imagine if you can dump the program and actually have the knowledge to dissect it.  That's the nightmare scenario, and it's why stuff reading player data from active memory is such a touchy subject for DE.  It's a huge no-no for security.

 

 

But what about other programs?  Well, you could go old school punk buster.  That searched active programs for stuff named like an identified cheating program...and it was less hit and more miss.  Not cool in the modern age when most people have dozens of background applications all named with literally no conventions that can be counted upon.  This is why anti-cheat is not based upon program names...though the fringe benefit is that an anti-cheat trolling your active program listing and reporting that back to the game company was an issue that sunk many older anti-cheat programs.

Do I think tangentially linked programs will lead to a ban?  No...because it's far easier to identify behavior than program names as a threat.  That said...if you run on a console there's literally no reason to worry.  The walled gardens all have to work together in their own ecosystem...so there's basically no rational reason to start banning anyone for software.  

 

Why then do I worry about anything?  I mean, if you don't do anything wrong you have nothing to fear.  Right?  Well, that's not right.  Imagine if I wanted to search out what relics contained a specific reward.  I'd have to go to the relic terminal, search for the name, troll through the list, and determine what I wanted to enrich before going to the match session start.  This means if I select a mission, want an Oberon Prime Chassis, but choose the wrong relic level I am stuck without any idea of where to get it...barring spamming missions.  It's silly to structure it as such...but that's our UI.  Now, imagine that somebody created an overlay where you typed in Oberon Prime Neuroptics, it pulled inventory data showing you have 4 and 2 of the containing relics (example pulled straight from my backside, so take the grain of salt relevant there), allowed you to enrich them, and listed the active missions so in one screen you can start with a goal, see your inventory, mess with that inventory, and start a mission without having 3-4 separate screens to go through.

That's what these third party apps are doing...because to access your inventory they either have to make a call to DE or read data from your active memory...and DE views both as a security risk.  

 

Being crass, Mo' function means mo' security risk.  DE's policy is written with that in-mind...not on thing like streaming, recording, or even code designed to never make memory calls outside of its allotted memory area.

 

 

 

 

Now, this is a 40% answer.  It's generalizing a lot, and not particularly technically accurate.  That said, it's designed as an "executive" summary.  One that highlights the general whys.  If you'd like something better I'd suggest you look into API call functions, memory allocation, memory assignment, and good practices on coding.  All of that will get you to a 90% answer...with the remaining 10% being DE laziness.  Being fair, that is not a criticism.  Laziness in this case is simply allowing themselves the rights to do anything, because writing a policy that actively evolves with the technology would be a joke.  It's much more economical to be Eric Cartman, than Perry Mason.

 

I feel sad now.  For those born much too early, Perry Mason was a person who upon discovery would often have a moment where little things would align, and demonstrate a much greater truth.  In coding and the law this means a blanket protection is easier, requires less updates, and carries no logical issues to being implemented.  IE, it's simpler, cheaper, and less effort.  Hence DE will never update policies...because despite any criticism levelled they are not idiots...or at least legal isn't.

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb UmbraAtrox:

Then correct it instead of just saying its incorrect. 

Or you get your information straight before you post info which can affect your fellow Tennos, no?

I have written whole essays on the issue. I am not going to correct everyone who thinks spreading misinformation makes them look cool. AHK is a very prominent example which got people banned as well.

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Very vague, maybe instead of giving someone a ban straightaway, give them a crash, a short term suspension or a warning when a program is detected. Other games have managed to do this and are way more competitive compared to Warframe which is all about grinding. This would save a lot of headaches and support tickets if implemented well and I speak from experience as I was falsely banned once but thankfully unbanned.

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4 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

Or you get your information straight before you post info which can affect your fellow Tennos, no?

 

What? "i know but i won't tell you" ?? Did i end up in Kindergarden? 

 

4 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

AHK is a very prominent example which got people banned as well.

So i missed one. That's the issue? Or is what i said plain wrong? Is a ahk script one writes to autoclick in warframe included in "any purposemade cheats"? Or is just solely ahk process without it interacting with the game getting people banned? I don't know because you won't tell, but then i question why you said anything at all. 

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On 2022-08-23 at 12:53 PM, RoninSAngel said:

I'm curious what qualifies as a third party program. I've ran genshin impact while running warframe because I had forgotten to do something on one or the other. I also have been known to listen to YouTube while just cracking relics. I also wonder, though I highly doubt, about discord as well since a lot od people use it to communicate with friends.

3rd party program is literally any program not made by DE or is not Warframe. Legally DE has defined third party programs within the End User license Agreement sections F through H as the following:  

f. use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software, tools or content designed to modify the Software, the Service or the Game experience;

g. exploit the Software, the Service, the Game experience or any portion thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation, (i) use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site without the express written consent of Digital Extremes; (ii) for gathering in-game currency, items or resources for sale outside the Software; or (iii) performing in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Software (e.g., power-leveling and similar activities);

h. use any unauthorized third-party software that intercepts, “mines”, or otherwise collects information from, within or through the Software or Service, including without limitation, any software that reads areas of RAM used by the Software to store information about a character, in-game items or the Software environment; provided, however, that Digital Extremes may, in its sole discretion, allow the use of specified third party user interfaces

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  • 3 weeks later...
Le 23/08/2022 à 17:07, [DE]Dudley a dit :

Hello, Tenno!

With respect to recent conversations, we wanted to bring this previously posted PSA to the forefront:

We have seen a few requests lately, specifically requesting that we provide a list of software that we do and do not allow to run in conjunction with Warframe. While it is understood that some software is good and others are inherently bad or designed to assist in cheating, there are some cases where software falls into gray areas.

The reason for this post is to have an updated reference about our policy on external, third-party software, and the potential pitfalls of using such software in conjunction with Warframe.
 

The simple, golden rule is this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.

While we could technically issue blanket bans on everything that alters the game files, the fact of the matter is that there's some software that can be useful and helpful for members of our community. This is where context is very important. The difficulty here is that it's incredibly hard for players to prove that they are not using a program nefariously, and while it is certainly possible that there are false positives (which a ticket to support can resolve), the ban will remain in place until your ticket can be processed.

This leads into why a list is not provided. If you have a piece of Macro software that is normally tolerated, but is then discovered to be the source of a future exploit, that software may get added to a ban list, and you could potentially be caught up in the automatic drag net. As stated above, there is no easy way to prove that the software used is benign.

Bans for altering game files, cheating and/or exploiting Warframe are hefty and final. Our stance on using such software is firm, and appealing against that ban is very difficult if we have reason to believe that you have been using said software for cheating, exploiting, or AFK farming.

The only way you can reliably, 100% avoid a ban for using external software is to simply not use it. 

Again, if you take anything away from this post, it should be this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.
 

8/23/2022
As of more recently, we’re aware of recent conversations around Overwolf and their apps. The above also applies to those apps (and all other third-party software). We would like to make it clear that our involvement with Overwolf is simply that we’ve had conversations to ensure that Warframe’s EULA and ToS are not being breached in any way.
 

Can you be even more vague, I almost an idea of what to avoid

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  • 1 month later...
  • 3 weeks later...

I've been thinking about getting AlecaFrame, but I'm a bit worried about being banned or whatnot. Can anyone just give me a concrete answer on whether or not DE is okay with it's use?

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm pretty sure it's okay as TheKengineer made a whole video about it, many people use it, and DE has never said they are against it. I just want to be safe.

Edited by Mazifet
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