Third-Party Software and You

[LeakingAmps]

I understand why you don't want to make programs marked as ok or not, but is it possible to get a non-exhaustive list of generally allowed (not approved, but allowed) use cases, rather than programs? For instance, Disability, Framerate, and avoiding CT/RSI seem like they're probably on the 'ok' list, but it would be best to get something from DE, even if unofficial.

Alternatively, some kind of complexity scale (for macros at least)? Like a key that just presses multiple other keys at the same time/presses the same key repeatedly, vs a macro to perform a full melee combo vs a macro that can do your entire power cycle for you on a defense objective.

Or maybe some kind of other rule? For macros, for instance, it could just be that it can't circumvent anti-afk on its own (whether by just being a movement ability, being too short to hit AFK, or not having movement)?

For instance, I use a macro button to toggle spam left click for spamming melee or non-auto guns, because I've had CT twice in my mouse hand, and once in my keyboard hand, and I'd rather not do that again. I know some people who play with something like FX SuperRez, and that's technically 3rd party. As is the Discord Overlay. Obviously those last two are fine, but the way it's listed above, they are explicitly not being marked as fine.

Or is this just not worth the time/effort cost to flesh out, for whatever reason? (If so, why?)

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

39 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Breaking Infested Pods does not contribute to the objective, hence why I didn't mention any AoE/nukes.

True but you don't need to spam the Arquebex for it to be effective in the fight. Mesa has to wait for the enemies to hatch just like everyone else. I NEVER use Mesa for anything and haven't had an issue Garv vs Tenno Bounty you speak of.  I honestly don't feel Specters in general are a detriment to the game with the exception of Wukong's Clone, in it's current state.  Most of the Syndicate ones are useless and the Tenno ones tend to die quickly and take up time and resources to manufacture so I don't see them being spammed in missions.  I just don't see the correlation between Ban-able Macros and Specters.  I think it's morally wrong for DE to NOT disclose which software can be used since clearly there are those in the gaming world that have limitations on their abilities and need to use a macro or an equivalent, to be able to complete missions in a timely manner, or just in general.  If DE cannot provide a valid list of acceptable software for those differently-abled individuals, then it would seem unfair to make those users who need to use such software, feel like they are criminals for using what is necessary to play the game, and to have the threat of being banned without any recourse, looming over their heads.  It's just another burden heaped on differently-abled individuals who just want to play a video game, but now they can be arbitrarily banned simply for using tools that are necessary.  Discrimination comes in many forms, and this just reeks of it. DE's complete lack of accountability for providing a valid list of acceptable macros or software that differently-abled users can utilize, for me doesn't seem right. 

[sammy6345]

3 hours ago, ABlindGuyPlays said:

An addendum:

I play on linux via Proton-GE.

IS THAT considered third party? It's not windows. It could have 'bad stuff' baked into the codebase. How do I know I won't get banned?

It has been a while since this has happened to me, but I've had wine specific error codes on the launcher, so they are definitely aware that it exists, and by extension that proton exists. There are specific ways to wine showing that, but at that point you should know what you are getting into. Additionally proton/wine is open source so they can look at exactly what it is doing anyway, making it extremely unlikely that your average user is doing anything malicious.

[LillyRaccune]

4 hours ago, Bismarck said:

No, the proper drug comparison would be the goverment telling people "do drugs at your own discretion, but we will sentence you for life if you do wrong ones, have fun". Fantastic form of prevention indeed.

You're right that my illustration has holes in it. But I think the moral of the story is "don't do drugs, unless you have a prescription" with the emphasis on the idea that no entity can actively control free will (that's where the "at your own discretion" part comes in). Either way it was just an illustration, it's not going to be perfect.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

True but you don't need to spam the Arquebex for it to be effective in the fight. Mesa has to wait for the enemies to hatch just like everyone else. I NEVER use Mesa for anything and haven't had an issue Garv vs Tenno Bounty you speak of.  I honestly don't feel Specters in general are a detriment to the game with the exception of Wukong's Clone, in it's current state.

I have tested loadouts extensively for Nights of Naberus Mother Token farming, and there is no contest between Specters/Mesa and other sources of killing. Killing Infested Spawn Pods hurts mission efficiency, something neither Mesa nor Specters do as they can't target (and therefor damage) objects.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

I honestly don't feel Specters in general are a detriment to the game with the exception of Wukong's Clone, in it's current state.  Most of the Syndicate ones are useless and the Tenno ones tend to die quickly and take up time and resources to manufacture so I don't see them being spammed in missions. I just don't see the correlation between Ban-able Macros and Specters.

Then you don't understand how they are abused. It's pretty simple to see they are a problem if you understand how they perform with certain weapons and the way their health/damage scale. There's a reason a while back DE had to change the way Specters handle Exergis.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

I think it's morally wrong for DE to NOT disclose which software can be used since clearly there are those in the gaming world that have limitations on their abilities and need to use a macro or an equivalent, to be able to complete missions in a timely manner, or just in general.  If DE cannot provide a valid list of acceptable software for those differently-abled individuals, then it would seem unfair to make those users who need to use such software, feel like they are criminals for using what is necessary to play the game, and to have the threat of being banned without any recourse, looming over their heads.  It's just another burden heaped on differently-abled individuals who just want to play a video game, but now they can be arbitrarily banned simply for using tools that are necessary.  Discrimination comes in many forms, and this just reeks of it. DE's complete lack of accountability for providing a valid list of acceptable macros or software that differently-abled users can utilize, for me doesn't seem right. 

DE is not going to spell out their terms or provide a list. This just teaches nefarious players all the loopholes and technicalities while not actually changing anything about the situation. The problem with this post is that it is a "duh" post. Most games have this policy or similar; they own your account and reserve the right to suspend you when they feel you act in bad faith. What you have running while you play is subject to repercussions should they feel the need to act.

What would be nice is DE acknowledging the way their anti-cheat, automated flagging/banning systems, and support ticket flow negatively impact all endless missions as a whole should a player stay longer than a few hours. People have been making threads and complaints about this for years now. One way to alleviate this somewhat is reducing the massive time requirements to scale enemies into the very high levels. This seems addressed in newer modes like Void Cascade and Disruption, but it would be nice if they revisited the older modes, namely Survival.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Voltage

[(XBOX)Shodian]

4 minutes ago, Voltage said:

One way to alleviate this somewhat is reducing the massive time requirements to scale enemies into the very high levels

Thats what Steel Path is for. There's also really no need to go past 40 minutes in survival.

[Voltage]

11 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Thats what Steel Path is for.

Steel Path was not exempt from my comment, it's included. Powercreep was added to alleviate the increased scaling for the target demographic, creating a situation back at square one for people who know how to use their mods and arsenal effectively.

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

There's also really no need to go past 40 minutes in survival.

There's no reason for you to go past 40 minutes. My comment was about and for those who like endless missions. I wouldn't have made the comment if I wanted to sit in Mariana Lith Fissure Exterminates all day.

[de1337er]

5 hours ago, Danielw8 said:

Time to update the game guys, add something like what overwolf does and warframe market ingame

Sounds really bad if you are veteran and you need a cheap external program to actually organize and sell your stuff

Steam Overlay has a web browser built in.
Warframe.market has a phone app.
There's even a "cheap external program" that adds-it.

DE is *never* going to add in-game market support. 📉

[Cazzzz]

10 hours ago, [DE]Dudley said:

While it is understood that some software is good and others are inherently bad or designed to assist in cheating, there are some cases where software falls into gray areas.

 

10 hours ago, [DE]Dudley said:

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.

Both of these two statements contradict each other on the front that there IS a massive grey area and it is difficult to know if something that helps with an impairment is going to get someone banned outright for using it. 

I think this is an issue that if you're going to go out of the way to address and make a statement on, it needs to be MUCH clearer than "Do so at your own risk". This is a PvE game, which matters because there is no competitive ladder that is being affected by someone using a macro to perform movements that more able players can perform regularly for hours on end. I do COMPLETELY agree that abusive play and external programs altering files/cheating is totally a bannable offense, but I have heard more instances of bans being issued (and only sometimes repealed) because of something completely benign to the game. 

Someone else said it as well, but if I can use a specter to play the game for me, take away all incentive for me to participate, and still net the same rewards, there is no reason that a LIVE player with, lets say, a broken wrist for an extended time, cannot actually be involved in the game if they would rather that then sit around with specters doing the work

 

. With how many nerfs/changes have been issued over the years to remove AFK playstyles, reopening the argument about third party programs, ESPECIALLY simple ones like Macros (Which are abundantly popular, mind you) is, frankly, obnoxious. As this other person said, in shorter terms:

6 hours ago, Tiikaan said:

At the moment it's basically 'Your are not banned until you are banned', which feels rather risky.

[0_The_F00l]

Wait ... So there already exists a list of banned applications ,

But you won't share what that is ? Cause ... Reasons ?

Sounds dubious and silly.

I only use the default OEMs software , but it has some capacity to run macros which i do not use , this post only confuses me further now cause i do need that software for using my hardware to its fullest.

Edited August 24, 2022 by 0_The_F00l

[Uhkretor]

10 hours ago, ABlindGuyPlays said:

I play on linux via Proton-GE.

IS THAT considered third party? It's not windows. It could have 'bad stuff' baked into the codebase. How do I know I won't get banned?

I don't think that a different OS falls into "third party" category, otherwise any WinOS would fall into the same category, considering the amount of hazardous crap the last 4 WinOS have running allegedly "under the hood"...

The only thing that may happen differently is that DE won't even consider bug reports from the Linux playerbase unless the bugs match exactly to the ones happening in a WinOS... Funny thing though, I've had a lot less bugs happening just by switching to Debian so~ I don't know... Maybe something else is causing unexpected bugs... 🤔

 

... Either way, I don't think people are going to be banned just because they're playing Warframe through Wine (or, to facilitate the understanding of some users, the chef flavored profile creator called "Proton")... Especially when the Linux playerbase has been slowly but steadily growing, most of those being platinum buyers with actual cash...

[60framespersecond]

12 hours ago, ABlindGuyPlays said:

I play on linux via Proton-GE.

IS THAT considered third party? It's not windows. It could have 'bad stuff' baked into the codebase. How do I know I won't get banned?

This is a recent answer on that related to the Steam Deck.

By very definition, of course it is third-party. And so is your Windows OS and your GPU driver and so much more stuff. And all of that directly interacts with WF. So where do you even start/stop with some kind of "whitelist"? "But is this new nvidia whatever something.or.other driver version allowed? please put on whitelist". "Oh, there was this recent beta driver update to my weird sound interface, is this whitelisted?". I'm usually very critical of DE, but while the OP might not be perfect (some wording could definitely be made more clear for non-native speakers), it is a reasonable stance on the subject.

[quxier]

15 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Alternatively / additionally, albeit controversially, it might help to point to some sort of macro software that is allowed. That way, if DE doesn't want to go the route of supporting those features in-game, there's at least one known, accepted piece of software people can flock toward. If that needs to be updated for the discovery of some exploit, then so be it, but in lieu of more accessibility in-game, it would go a long way to quelling worries over getting banned for trying to prevent RSIs.

Bonus points if people are able to share scripts for that. Extra points if DE provides scripts for the same sort of "peace of mind" reasons. I get accessibility features in Warframe can be a PITA, so scribbling up a few accepted AutoHotkey scripts might very well be easier.

+1

I had similar suggestion about macro system:

17 hours ago, quxier said:

I wonder why not just make simple "macro engine" for stuffs like this. Person can download & upload their code. If code is bad then people will get some message instead of bans (for few first cases).

 

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

11 hours ago, Voltage said:

Then you don't understand how they are abused

No I understand, I just don't care, since there are so many other balancing issues (AOE Weapons, Warframes, etc.) that far overshadow players using Specters during missions.  

[DragonManipulator372]

Are crosshair overlay programs permitted? Normally I don't really need one, but regarding piloting a necramech, having their crosshair not change color via the settings is...unintuitive?
It's hard to see where I'm aiming with the arquebex a lot when the crosshair is a small white dot and the world around me is also white.

[KIREEK]

I remember once watching a streamer that controled warframe using his mouth, which was an achievement on his own, so macros and other software to aid these players needs to be allowed otherwise the gameplay itself will ban them, they sometimes can't physically play the same way as other players.

Obviously there is an issue here, because autobans do happen and if support gives no way for the user to prove his innocence because "it's hard" and potentially takes to much time then the results may not be fair, however giving time and an explanation can give you worthwhile details, dismissing things and just reading the "what to do in X situation" may give you sub par results.

I'll give you an example (which is real) where the act of doing things fast and easy do not work and effort will work.

Someone out of nowhere, decides to lure users into RMT or asking users into account selling/buying in the official warframe discord, how to deal with this? I understand that Discord veterans will say "right click, ban from server" problem solved right, you followed the instructions, clearly you did good right?
When you remove someone from the server, you remove the ability to search for his previous posts, you can only search keywords, but not for the posting history, so by removing the user, you are aiding the infractor in hiding from everyone, you are aiding the RMT business, it will continue and in the end you're just cleaning the shoulders, shifting the responsibility of any issues elsewhere.
What is the optimal way to do it?

1. You take a screenshot, including his discord profile, remove the message  (if no IGN is mentioned) and/or mute the user
2. You stall the user in the server, saying via DM "you were muted temporarily, we will unmute you in a couple minutes", giving hope that he will come back, don't scare him away with "you can't do that, if you do it again you're out", no, just be neutral, ommit the fact he will be banned, just mention something to keep him around.
3. search his posting history with "from: user#0001" and check for any posts with his ign, which may exist
4. Submit a support ticket, with the screencaps you took and his associated IGN, so that support can check manually other accounts tied with the discord ID, hardware ID, IP and give it a look so that when the account changes owner (or even before that), the user can be banned.
5. once ticket is done, remove user from discord server.

2 clicks to solve an issue isn't going to work, anyone can do that, that's why the aproach will only perpetuate the RMT user, thanks to the moderator that handle it.

In this particular case you're only shifting the blame onto automated systems that may flag things incorrectly, so making a topic to warn users and call it "job done" may not weild the best results, again, anyone can make a topic, adressing the issue that a particular user has is more difficult, so giving a chance for them to explain isn't a bad idea, it can't make things worse for them, yes users may lie and mislead, but try and give support more tools to check if the user is lying or why they used such software or macros, replying to the user with:

• this decision is final
• you cannot appeal
• if you message us again, we will remove your priviledges to contact support

is going to sound super irritating to someone that was unfairly banned.

Edited August 24, 2022 by KIREEK

[mycroft_]

On 2022-08-23 at 9:07 AM, [DE]Dudley said:

Hello, Tenno!

With respect to recent conversations, we wanted to bring this previously posted PSA to the forefront:

It still has the same problem today, guys.

It was vague and unhelpful and unclear the first time. Posting it again is not helpful and does not clear anything up.

The reason Overwolf is being discussed more is that we would like to see an official API for the information they seem to be accessing. It would make Warframe better. It would be an improvement all around. Please consider it.

[Kalvorax]

ok cool...so can we get a hold to melee option now? so tired of HAVING to resort to using a Logitech (G605 and G600 mice) macro to melee and not hurt my fingers.....same for semi auto weapons....there are a few that ARE a pain to use that are semi auto only that automatic or burst fie helps a ton with.

accessibility and all that jazz yeah?

Edited August 25, 2022 by Kalvorax

[Danielw8]

On 2022-08-23 at 9:43 PM, de1337er said:

Steam Overlay has a web browser built in.
Warframe.market has a phone app.
There's even a "cheap external program" that adds-it.

DE is *never* going to add in-game market support. 📉

que ?

[Venus-Venera]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb Kalvorax:

ok cool...so can we get a hold to melee option now? so tired of HAVING to resort to using a Logitech (G605 and G600 mice) macro to melee and not hurt my fingers.....same for semi auto weapons....there are a few that ARE a pain to use that are semi auto only that automatic or burst fie helps a ton with.

accessibility and all that jazz yeah?

i have been using g900 for years. old mouse and it has usable buttons. software is ok and autoclicker is possible here.
only that's a lousy option and I have to switch that extra for warframe... well!
here it has to be solved in the game, because why design useless nonsense that nobody can use at all? because many weapons have several shots per second!!!! who is so sick and will click a button several times a second????????????

[eboomer]

You do realize that this literally clarifies nothing at all right?  Like... am I not allowed to have Discord or Spotify running in the background while Warframe is running?  Do I need to close all of my hardware drivers, especially my mouse and keyboard drivers that I use for custom lighting) to not get banned?  Am I allowed to have antivirus software running?  Who in the world doesn't have ANY additional software running besides the bare minimum needed to play a video game?  What planet are you guys living on???  You guys do actually use computers in the real world, right???

[eboomer]

So like... I think that it's something like... 'software that modifies game files in ways that give an unfair advantage, or macros that automate gameplay to allow for afk overnight farming, are things DE may well want to ban you for, but otherwise, DE is probably not coming to get you'. 

I think it would be helpful to give some sort of vague sense such as that, as to the nature of DE's concerns, regarding the player's use of external software.  But a vague 'we may ban you at any time for reasons we won't tell you anything about'... is not particularly helpful, but just makes me worry about getting randomly banned for BS non-reasons.

Edited August 26, 2022 by eboomer

[Vaemarr]

On 2022-08-24 at 1:07 AM, [DE]Dudley said:

Hello, Tenno!

With respect to recent conversations, we wanted to bring this previously posted PSA to the forefront:

We have seen a few requests lately, specifically requesting that we provide a list of software that we do and do not allow to run in conjunction with Warframe. While it is understood that some software is good and others are inherently bad or designed to assist in cheating, there are some cases where software falls into gray areas.

The reason for this post is to have an updated reference about our policy on external, third-party software, and the potential pitfalls of using such software in conjunction with Warframe.
 

The simple, golden rule is this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.

While we could technically issue blanket bans on everything that alters the game files, the fact of the matter is that there's some software that can be useful and helpful for members of our community. This is where context is very important. The difficulty here is that it's incredibly hard for players to prove that they are not using a program nefariously, and while it is certainly possible that there are false positives (which a ticket to support can resolve), the ban will remain in place until your ticket can be processed.

This leads into why a list is not provided. If you have a piece of Macro software that is normally tolerated, but is then discovered to be the source of a future exploit, that software may get added to a ban list, and you could potentially be caught up in the automatic drag net. As stated above, there is no easy way to prove that the software used is benign.

Bans for altering game files, cheating and/or exploiting Warframe are hefty and final. Our stance on using such software is firm, and appealing against that ban is very difficult if we have reason to believe that you have been using said software for cheating, exploiting, or AFK farming.

The only way you can reliably, 100% avoid a ban for using external software is to simply not use it. 

Again, if you take anything away from this post, it should be this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.
 

8/23/2022
As of more recently, we’re aware of recent conversations around Overwolf and their apps. The above also applies to those apps (and all other third-party software). We would like to make it clear that our involvement with Overwolf is simply that we’ve had conversations to ensure that Warframe’s EULA and ToS are not being breached in any way.
 

I understand the position you are taking but I do not agree with it.

If a piece of software that is normally tolerated ends up becoming the unintentional source of an exploit then that should be investigated, the context of the exploit considered, and efforts to eliminate the specific behaviour put into place. If, at the time, the exploit cannot be eliminated without banning the use of the software then that should be announced in a PSA to give people a chance to be aware of the situation and then respond by stopping use of the software.

I'm not ignorant to the fact that you need to give your developer and moderation teams sufficient flexibility to respond to these matters but taking the neutral stance of "take it at your own risk" and "maybe you are cheating, maybe you're not" "maybe that is considered cheating....maybe its not" does not help anyone in the community stay within the safe boundaries of the rules.

Essentially it comes down to a matter of interpretation and who wields higher authority which we all know comes down to DE. Anything from a simple macro I use with legitimate software that came with my mouse, an overlay that gives me valuable information, to game altering files could all be considered cheats...or maybe they won't? I'll never know and if DE decides to ban me for my infinite spam of melee then technically they're within their rights.

If the DE won't give the community the features they want, and the community cannot make supplimentary add-ons with the peace of mind in knowing they won't be banned, then that is a downright **** of a move to make.

DE really needs to rethink the stance and and give the community a framework to adhere to that is fair for everyone and outlined in their acceptable use policy. The current stance is a joke and passing the buck to avoid responsibility.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Vaemarr

[Sahysa]

So the clarification is its all bad but enforcement is at will and whim of how DE feels this month?  So its still justified to blame them for dragnets since they're the moving party in that scenario... alright gotcha. 

I'm currently enjoying the Streisand effects of this post.  We wouldn't attempt to improve our experience if we didn't care. 

[UmbraAtrox]

Why does this post even exist? 

Your EULA clearly states https://www.warframe.com/eula

Quote

2. "You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:" 

Quote

2.f "use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software, tools or content designed to modify the Software, the Service or the Game experience;"

Do WFinfo and AlecaFrame "modify the Game expirience"? Yes, else we probably wouldn't bother. 

Quote

2.h "h. use any unauthorized third-party software that intercepts, “mines”, or otherwise collects information from, within or through the Software or Service, including without limitation, any software that reads areas of RAM used by the Software to store information about a character, in-game items or the Software environment; provided, however, that Digital Extremes may, in its sole discretion, allow the use of specified third party user interfaces;"

Now i'd love to know How does overwolf/AlecaFrame get its data with such speed and accuracy while not reading rom Ram? Afaik the whole reason WFinfo only takes screenshots to analyze is to not break eula but when GamingBrandXYZ™ comes and does it anyway its all fine? #corpo4corpo ?

On 2022-08-23 at 5:07 PM, [DE]Dudley said:

We would like to make it clear that our involvement with Overwolf is simply that we’ve had conversations to ensure that Warframe’s EULA and ToS are not being breached in any way.

So all in all my question is: How does overwolf/AlecaFrame not break your eula?
A simple statement in how overwolf/AlecaFrame does acquire its data and why this way is fine would be enough. You telling us won't change anything about a possible cheater situation as someone who can reverse Warframe to make cheats probably also can reverse Overwolf or Alecaframe to check what it is doing to avoid getting banned. 

All we really want is to be officially allowed to obtain the same data as overwolf/AlecaFrame so we can build similar tools which we wanted to build for years without having to be owned by a company. 
It's unfair to your community when you tell GamingBrandXYZ™ what is allowed while all you say to us is "... do so at your own risk."

 

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by UmbraAtrox