Lock mission force start when someone is loading

[Wirlort]

I don't have Warframe installed on my SSD drive, so sometimes when i finish a mission with a squad, i find myself forced into a mission before i can finish loading. This is very irritating as it just completely waists my time. I also heard this is in issue in consoles so it will be a big problem when crossplay comes out.

So i propose a queue lock so that you can't force start a mission when someone in the party is still loading.

[Hobie-wan]

Seems reasonable. As long as there is some indicator that lets the other people in the squad know that someone is still loading and hasn't just stepped away or passed otu under their desk.

I do have WF installed on an SSD (though not an NVME) and the hobo camp takes forever to load in. I haven't had issues with being dragged into another mission, but fairly often the squad all leaves by the time I'm done loading. Sure it's when I'm doing pubs, but for stuff like the sortie missions, unless there was someone being disruptive or useless in the mission or a spy, it's pretty sure that everyone is going to continue on through with maybe a quick equipment swap.

[UltraRareSloth]

I think make force start not work in public setting it work fine in friend only and invite only or just kick anyone who not click agree to play out if someone have better gaming PC and want to go fast let them go and left anyone who slower behind this should good for both side.

[Drasiel]

1 hour ago, UltraRareSloth said:

I think make force start not work in public setting it work fine in friend only and invite only or just kick anyone who not click agree to play out if someone have better gaming PC and want to go fast let them go and left anyone who slower behind this should good for both side.

Force start is very useful in case someone in the squad cannot vote due to a bug. There's a few players in my clan who regularly get struck by the "can't vote bug".

Rather than preventing it's use when you are set to public having the game prevent a vote until everyone is loaded back to orbiter/camp would be better.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

The worst of it is, that someone doing a Force Start when another player is still loading

can Softlock that player

they can end up in a Black Screen, where they're basically in Limbo, able to hear the sound effects of mission, but unable to spawn. have to alt-f4 to get out of it

[Crash-Override]

On 28/09/2022 at 15:08, Wirlort said:

Eu não tenho Warframe instalado no meu drive SSD, então às vezes quando eu termino uma missão com um esquadrão, eu me vejo forçado a entrar em uma missão antes que eu possa terminar de carregar. Isso é muito irritante, pois acaba completamente com o meu tempo. Também ouvi dizer que isso está em questão nos consoles, então será um grande problema quando o crossplay for lançado.

Então eu proponho um bloqueio de fila para que você não possa forçar o início de uma missão quando alguém no grupo ainda estiver carregando.

I have Warframe installed on an SSD and sometimes this happens to me, I noticed that it started after the last update that made the loadings much slower

[Famecans]

I have ssd but i think this is a processing delay. my hardware is very old and the DE has already warned that I am on the list of hardware that will retire in warframe 2023.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Hear me out.  Mission force start has far, far more drawbacks than actual legitimate uses and should be removed from the game.

[Grommile]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Hear me out.  Mission force start has far, far more drawbacks than actual legitimate uses and should be removed from the game.

Mission force start can be fixed.

Just make it eject the people who haven't voted yet.

[Hobie-wan]

7 hours ago, Grommile said:

Just make it eject the people who haven't voted yet.

That's no good for when the vote just breaks and someone can't see it to click it though. It doesn't happen to me or randoms in a group too often, but it does happen. Usually all it takes is a quick check in chat to see if someone doesn't see it and then one can soy to force it. Of course polite squads like that who wait and check on that are generally the same people.

All we're saying is to wait for everyone to finish loading back into the orbiter or camp before the force option pops up. If someone is so impatient that they can't wait an extra 5-10 seconds for that, they can leave and go find another pub that's starting right that second. Just like there should never be a plain vote to kick, there shouldn't be one because of one's home base choice or slightly slower loading.

[CoffeeElemental]

В 28.09.2022 в 21:08, Wirlort сказал:

I don't have Warframe installed on my SSD drive, so sometimes when i finish a mission with a squad, i find myself forced into a mission before i can finish loading.

Having a SSD is not a problem here - I have Warframe installed on a SSD and still experience the same problem. The reason is whether network or shader caching. And it has been getting worse since before TNW released.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

2 hours ago, CoffeeElemental said:

Having a SSD is not a problem here - I have Warframe installed on a SSD and still experience the same problem. The reason is whether network or shader caching. And it has been getting worse since before TNW released.

my vote is shader caching

load times and hitches have been getting progressively worse as DE has been focusing on Shiny Graphics updates, but no real backside Programming updates.  -insert rant about DE having too many Artists and not enough Functional Programmers-

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2022-10-01 at 7:49 AM, Grommile said:

Mission force start can be fixed.

Just make it eject the people who haven't voted yet.

I'm sitting here picturing all the newbies that ask for help in recruit, then force start the mission as soon as I join squad instead of letting me change my loadout and I'm laughing.

 

Because 9 times out of 10, they force start it over and over instead of respecting the vote.

 

Or the people that force start it in between missions on sortie or archon hunts because they can't wait for someone to change gear.  I always make sure to mention in chat that it wasn't me, because that's rude af.  

 

All that would do is give people the ability to eject someone from the squad without anyone else's say, and that's way too much power to give these people.

[(XBOX)Cotton Tail]

I've noticed in crossplay situations that the end of mission loading screen is faster for the PC players. I'm consistently seeing the other PC squad members have already accepted the next mission before the XBox returns. A force start makes this worse - no chance to make any changes/refine a relic in the 5(?) seconds allowed before we're off again.... 

[Drasiel]

12 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I'm sitting here picturing all the newbies that ask for help in recruit, then force start the mission as soon as I join squad instead of letting me change my loadout and I'm laughing.

 

Because 9 times out of 10, they force start it over and over instead of respecting the vote.

 

Or the people that force start it in between missions on sortie or archon hunts because they can't wait for someone to change gear.  I always make sure to mention in chat that it wasn't me, because that's rude af.  

 

All that would do is give people the ability to eject someone from the squad without anyone else's say, and that's way too much power to give these people.

Is it though? I don't really see how letting other players start a mission and not drag everyone else into extra loading screens is granting them more power than they already have if they leave the squad and start the next mission on their own. Like the scenarios work out this way in my head:

Scenario 1 Current behaviour: You aren't ready to start the next mission and someone force starts the mission. This sucks for you, you either have to sit through two extra loading screens to go back to orbiter or you just suffer through the mission.

Scenario 2 Current behaviour: You aren't ready to start the next mission and someone gets impatient so they leave the squad. If the leaver was host either the squad is lost or you might get a host migration. If the leaver wasn't a host the squad remains.

Scenario 3 Proposed behaviour: You aren't ready to start the next mission and someone force starts the mission. The person who force started (and anyone who was also ready) Leave the squad. If one of the leavers was host either the squad is lost or you might get a host migration. If the leavers weren't the host the squad remains.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious but it really seems like a glass half empty/half full perspective issue: one perspective is them kicking you out of the group, the other perspective is them leaving the group. About the only additional downside to the 3rd scenario I can think of off the top of my head is that because the squad is broken up you might encounter more host migrations prior to entering a mission.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

1 hour ago, Drasiel said:

Is it though? I don't really see how letting other players start a mission and not drag everyone else into extra loading screens is granting them more power than they already have if they leave the squad and start the next mission on their own. Like the scenarios work out this way in my head:

Scenario 1 Current behaviour: You aren't ready to start the next mission and someone force starts the mission. This sucks for you, you either have to sit through two extra loading screens to go back to orbiter or you just suffer through the mission.

Scenario 2 Current behaviour: You aren't ready to start the next mission and someone gets impatient so they leave the squad. If the leaver was host either the squad is lost or you might get a host migration. If the leaver wasn't a host the squad remains.

Scenario 3 Proposed behaviour: You aren't ready to start the next mission and someone force starts the mission. The person who force started (and anyone who was also ready) Leave the squad. If one of the leavers was host either the squad is lost or you might get a host migration. If the leavers weren't the host the squad remains.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious but it really seems like a glass half empty/half full perspective issue: one perspective is them kicking you out of the group, the other perspective is them leaving the group. About the only additional downside to the 3rd scenario I can think of off the top of my head is that because the squad is broken up you might encounter more host migrations prior to entering a mission.

Well the first scenario I gave literally happens to me regularly, where newbies don't respect the vote. 

 

And also, because I'm thinking about this from a third perspective.  Not the guy being left, and not the impatient person.  I'd guess that in my experience, about 75% of the time the person force starting is not the person contributing the most.  It's almost always someone getting hard carried.  I don't want that person making the choice for me that I'm going to keep playing with them and not wait for the other person.

 

Completely removing force start only creates issues in super niche scenarios, most of which would be solved by fixing actual bugs or a better UI.  And it prevents impatient people from making choices for the rest of the pub.  No matter what way you frame it, that person is making choices for everyone else.  

 

If the person lagging behind happens to be someone you're playing with on purpose and just have a couple pubs along too, then an impatient little pubbie can split you two or even three up because THEY want to go and don't want to respect the vote.  That's 100% more power than they have now.  And the impatient ones aren't the ones that need more authority over the group.

 

There's a lot more situations to look at than just 4 randos who don't care who stays.  Your example only covers that situation with that mindset.  And even in that situation, I care because that ish is rude.  I cannot stand it when people don't respect the vote.

 

Why do people think it's there?  Just to be ignored?  Because you're the only one that matters?  Force starting is total BS.

[Drasiel]

12 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Well the first scenario I gave literally happens to me regularly, where newbies don't respect the vote. 

 

And also, because I'm thinking about this from a third perspective.  Not the guy being left, and not the impatient person.  I'd guess that in my experience, about 75% of the time the person force starting is not the person contributing the most.  It's almost always someone getting hard carried.  I don't want that person making the choice for me that I'm going to keep playing with them and not wait for the other person.

 

Completely removing force start only creates issues in super niche scenarios, most of which would be solved by fixing actual bugs or a better UI.  And it prevents impatient people from making choices for the rest of the pub.  No matter what way you frame it, that person is making choices for everyone else.  

 

If the person lagging behind happens to be someone you're playing with on purpose and just have a couple pubs along too, then an impatient little pubbie can split you two or even three up because THEY want to go and don't want to respect the vote.  That's 100% more power than they have now.  And the impatient ones aren't the ones that need more authority over the group.

 

There's a lot more situations to look at than just 4 randos who don't care who stays.  Your example only covers that situation with that mindset.  And even in that situation, I care because that ish is rude.  I cannot stand it when people don't respect the vote.

 

Why do people think it's there?  Just to be ignored?  Because you're the only one that matters?  Force starting is total BS.

force start might resolve super niche issues but I've encountered a few players over the years that literally would never be able to play in a premade group without it. For whatever reason if it's premade and they are not host they cannot vote. Due to how niche that bug is, it just doesn't get fixed and when you try to reproduce the issue with other hardware it simply doesn't happen. I'm also not sure if the issue is still really common on xbox still but it used to be much more common on xbox than it was on PC.

At least for me personally, granting the offending player the power to split up the group is a much lesser evil than forcing the entire group to go through an extra loading screen at best and 2 at worst. Mostly because it's easy to remake the group especially if you've played one mission already as they go in recent players.

I agree that not respecting the vote when there are no issues is definitely rude but being able to force start has been very beneficial in my experience.  At the very least you shouldn't be able to force start if the entire group hasn't finished loading into the liset or camp first.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

21 hours ago, Drasiel said:

force start might resolve super niche issues but I've encountered a few players over the years that literally would never be able to play in a premade group without it. For whatever reason if it's premade and they are not host they cannot vote. Due to how niche that bug is, it just doesn't get fixed and when you try to reproduce the issue with other hardware it simply doesn't happen. I'm also not sure if the issue is still really common on xbox still but it used to be much more common on xbox than it was on PC.

At least for me personally, granting the offending player the power to split up the group is a much lesser evil than forcing the entire group to go through an extra loading screen at best and 2 at worst. Mostly because it's easy to remake the group especially if you've played one mission already as they go in recent players.

The first part is a bug and needs to be fixed, and I've reported the various versions ofnit and what causes it to be repeatable on console many times.

 

The second part makes me think we're not on the same page.

 

I'm talking about giving the offending player zero power.  No force start.  They can vote and they can leave if they don't like it taking an extra 30 seconds for someone to swap loadouts.  Not giving them the lesser of two evils.  Zero evil.  They don't get to make choices for anyone but them.  I absolutely hate players that don't respect the vote.

 

The ONLY downside is if you have a premade of 2 or 3 and pubs aren't voting so you have to regroup.  That's on DEs crappy squad system though.  Force start does nothing but let impatient people have power over everyone else, and solve a handful of niche issues that would be solved by bug fixes and a competent squad system like nearly any other game has.

[Drasiel]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

The first part is a bug and needs to be fixed, and I've reported the various versions ofnit and what causes it to be repeatable on console many times.

 

The second part makes me think we're not on the same page.

 

I'm talking about giving the offending player zero power.  No force start.  They can vote and they can leave if they don't like it taking an extra 30 seconds for someone to swap loadouts.  Not giving them the lesser of two evils.  Zero evil.  They don't get to make choices for anyone but them.  I absolutely hate players that don't respect the vote.

 

The ONLY downside is if you have a premade of 2 or 3 and pubs aren't voting so you have to regroup.  That's on DEs crappy squad system though.  Force start does nothing but let impatient people have power over everyone else, and solve a handful of niche issues that would be solved by bug fixes and a competent squad system like nearly any other game has.

I agree it needs to be fixed, but it hasn't been in over 5 years, and I don't believe it's maliciousness or due to neglect, at least on the PC end. There are a lot of hardware specific bugs that are almost impossible to replicate without the exact same hardware/software/system updates which slows down resolutions massively. Low frame rate transference issues are a good example of this that keep popping up with different factors. So if the bug was fixed and never occurred again I absolutely agree there is no reason to have a force start option at all. That's not our current reality though so I'd rather keep the force start option until it's resolved and maybe update it to suck less as a stopgap solution.

We are definitely not on the same page because you are talking about your ideal solution while I was responding to these two comments about force start dragging people into missions vs splitting off the people who hit force start

On 2022-10-01 at 4:49 AM, Grommile said:

Mission force start can be fixed.

Just make it eject the people who haven't voted yet.

On 2022-10-30 at 10:20 PM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I'm sitting here picturing all the newbies that ask for help in recruit, then force start the mission as soon as I join squad instead of letting me change my loadout and I'm laughing.

 

Because 9 times out of 10, they force start it over and over instead of respecting the vote.

 

Or the people that force start it in between missions on sortie or archon hunts because they can't wait for someone to change gear.  I always make sure to mention in chat that it wasn't me, because that's rude af.  

 

All that would do is give people the ability to eject someone from the squad without anyone else's say, and that's way too much power to give these people.

so purely in the context of the choosing the lesser evil between force start ejecting squad mates and force start dragging unwilling players into misisons. I find the former to be the better solution to what we have currently in game. In a perfect world No voting bugs and no force start would be ideal though.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

9 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

I don't believe it's maliciousness or due to neglect

I do.  There are extremely repeatable, long standing (like since the release of fortuna) bugs that are absolutely detrimental to gameplay that have been repeatedly reported numerous times and have never been fixed.  There are UI bugs that have been around for multiple waves of sweeping changes to the UI.  I used to keep a list of constant, repeatable bugs in a notepad on on my PC, before I realized none of them were getting fixed.

This is a company that holds contests for dojos, and spends resources putting in new dojo decorations, and has whole sections of the forum for things like the contest entries and yet they absolutely destroyed my dojo with 100% bugged, cannot normally be this size, oversized decorations that screwed up whole sections of my dojo and didn't even acknowledge it.  I report an exploit and I get responses from everyone I reported it to and it's fixed in literally less than 24 hours.  I go to those same people telling them their update broke my dojo and not a single one of them would even respond.

DE picks low hanging fruit for bug fixes and lets plenty of this stuff fester like it's not a problem, so you'll have to forgive me if I firmly believe that all of these matchmaking bugs and UI issues could be resolved and they just don't care.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

I was responding to these two comments about force start dragging people into missions vs splitting off the people who hit force start

The comment you responded to was part of a chain, and my original comment that started that chain was me saying that it needs to go entirely.

[Drasiel]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I do.  There are extremely repeatable, long standing (like since the release of fortuna) bugs that are absolutely detrimental to gameplay that have been repeatedly reported numerous times and have never been fixed.  There are UI bugs that have been around for multiple waves of sweeping changes to the UI.  I used to keep a list of constant, repeatable bugs in a notepad on on my PC, before I realized none of them were getting fixed.

This is a company that holds contests for dojos, and spends resources putting in new dojo decorations, and has whole sections of the forum for things like the contest entries and yet they absolutely destroyed my dojo with 100% bugged, cannot normally be this size, oversized decorations that screwed up whole sections of my dojo and didn't even acknowledge it.  I report an exploit and I get responses from everyone I reported it to and it's fixed in literally less than 24 hours.  I go to those same people telling them their update broke my dojo and not a single one of them would even respond.

DE picks low hanging fruit for bug fixes and lets plenty of this stuff fester like it's not a problem, so you'll have to forgive me if I firmly believe that all of these matchmaking bugs and UI issues could be resolved and they just don't care.

 

 

The comment you responded to was part of a chain, and my original comment that started that chain was me saying that it needs to go entirely.

*shrug* My clan leader lost control of his frame to animation locks every single time we played an archon mission and he used transference. 100% repeatable, super easy steps to reproduce: Be on his PC, be client in an archon mission (included frame and loadout info), use transferance at any point in the mission, Locked up character. Those reproduction steps? absolutely useless for reproducing the issue because it was his hardware triggering an issue due to low framerate which couldn't be replicated by intentionally throttling your frame rate when you had better hardware.

That's not even getting into bugs that happen because of one incredibly minor deviation in behaviour you have that can be missed when reporting. I had a reload bug with a gun that only occurred specifically when you input two S and one W input before manually reloading.

There was a bug with Yareli where if you got knocked down while on merulina your controls would be locked up for a specific amount of time. This was reported for months by scores, perhaps even hundreds of users but couldn't be fixed because it couldn't be replicated (DE's had gone in threads asking for more info because they couldn't reproduce it). I found the replication, it was very specific knockdowns (one was corpus laser doors don't remember the rest anymore) and what happened is that normally you would be knocked down and your character would lie on the floor until you pressed the input to get up, if you don't press anything that animation eventually ends on it's own and you stand back up. Well when the knockdown happened on merulina and you were animation locked the lock lasted for the exact same time to the millisecond of that lying down animation. You were knocked down and the game treated you as if you were locked in that animation (no inputs except the get up input works in that state, even esc menu and chat is locked out) but because you actually weren't knocked down the get up input doesn't work so you can't leave the animation early. With that information the bug was finally fixed in the next major update.

Us being able to replicate it 100% of the time is definitely more likely to have it be fixed but that's only if QA can also replicate it 100% of the time.

If I haven't changed your mind that's totally fine, I too can get very frustrated with the long standing bugs I can reliably trigger and completely understand and accept why you feel that way.

I didn't actually see your first replay to that chain so I was just going off of your post and the comment quoted in it since the warframe forums don't do nested quotes for some reason. Mystery solved I guess lol.

 

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

20 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

My clan leader lost control of his frame to animation locks every single time we played an archon mission and he used transference. 100% repeatable, super easy steps to reproduce: Be on his PC, be client in an archon mission (included frame and loadout info), use transferance at any point in the mission, Locked up character. Those reproduction steps? absolutely useless for reproducing the issue because it was his hardware triggering an issue due to low framerate which couldn't be replicated by intentionally throttling your frame rate when you had better hardware.

Refresh me on this, what does this have to do with force starting a mission again?  Genuine question.

[Drasiel]

On 2022-11-01 at 10:07 PM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Refresh me on this, what does this have to do with force starting a mission again?  Genuine question.

It's a tangent we wandered into because of the longstanding Squad UI bug that locks people out of voting. Since the bug hasn't been fixed it's a reason for keeping force start around. The examples of those other bugs are a response to your opinion that maliciousness or negligence are the reason bugs like the squad ui lockout aren't fixed when they are 100% reproduce-able on our end. The frame rate bugs could be replicated very reliably but that replication didn't actually help unless you had similar hardware to test it on.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

7 hours ago, Drasiel said:

It's a tangent we wandered into because of the longstanding Squad UI bug that locks people out of voting. Since the bug hasn't been fixed it's a reason for keeping force start around. The examples of those other bugs are a response to your opinion that maliciousness or negligence are the reason bugs like the squad ui lockout aren't fixed when they are 100% reproduce-able on our end. The frame rate bugs could be replicated very reliably but that replication didn't actually help unless you had similar hardware to test it on.

I've never been one to argue for bad mechanics because they bandaid a bug that the devs can't figure out.  I get that this can be a thing a very small set of players need, but DE just needs to fix those issues.  

[Drasiel]

15 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I've never been one to argue for bad mechanics because they bandaid a bug that the devs can't figure out.  I get that this can be a thing a very small set of players need, but DE just needs to fix those issues.  

I agree they 100% need to be fixed and a fix plus the removal of force start would be the absolute best solution. I'm just falling back on the practicality that because it's not fixed at this time force start is better than nothing even though it brings it's own set of problems to the table.