DE should just go ahead and put out rules for how the game has to be played.

[Cerikus]

4 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

My point is to make it so that ST weapons are a viable alternative. 

I (as a player who likes to try many different weapons and tactics) can assure you MANY ST weapons are viable, but they are either not as effective or are difficult to use.

4 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

It doesn't matter if the Kuva Tonkor requires less aiming by virtue of being a grenade launcher. 

Weeeeell.. it kinda does and it obviously matters to DE. 

4 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

Warframe is an easy game.

And yet we had many people on forums angry about New War quest being impossible to complete... 

4 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

WHERE IS MY DAIKYU PRIME DE????

I feel you :D

---

2 hours ago, Corvid said:

Melee was originally far less viable than ranged attacks, to the point where its main use was for a physics glitch rather than as an actual combat tactic.

And Excalibur had super jump, parkour was non-existent and you had to equip abilites as mods. Is "Warframe 1" relevant to the discussion of balance in "Waframe 2"? And the best choices were still the more AOE ones.

2 hours ago, Corvid said:

which players generally didn't choose

Because it did self damage. So people used other AOE options. Like melee or Warframe abilities.

2 hours ago, Corvid said:

Seriously, I'm not sure what part of "the game's meta wasn't always all AOE all the time" is so hard to understand.

I undestand what you saying, it just don't belive you are right.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

10 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

No, it's not and no, I don't. DE is focusing on all of the disruptive elements of the game. Is it your intention to ruin everyone else's experience just so you can get what you want? Are you playing in pub, aka a team, but your intentions are to just get your stuff and say screw the squad? If so, then that's what solo is for.

Those are the issues that have ultimately caused these changes. "Git gud" is only shouted out because of the selfishness displayed by those players. If you're not good enough to tackle the harder missions solo, and you need a squad to help you get the rewards, then don't negatively affect the squad with a display of bad behavior. Of course, you just gave  a hint that you're unwilling to do this so, thanks to player feedback and DE's own data, corrections were put in place to help minimize the negative.

In essence, if negatively impacting other players is your style of play, then it should be eliminated or greatly reduced. DE, as the good people they are, wanted to at least meet everyone in the middle. It's just a shame that selfishness won't allow the middle ground to be met.

You said "no i don't expect you to play slower for me." Then went on to make an entire argument aboit how I need to play slower for slow people in squads.

[Skoomaseller]

11 hours ago, Cerikus said:

I (as a player who likes to try many different weapons and tactics) can assure you MANY ST weapons are viable, but they are either not as effective or are difficult to use.

that's what I'm saying, see, they could use a bump in power. again, not necessarily in the damage department.

11 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Weeeeell.. it kinda does and it obviously matters to DE. 

Perhaps. But what I was saying is that they're not taking it the right way. Of course, that is just my opinion, I'm not a game designer after all. I'm just tired of the endless cycle of nerf > something becomes popular > nerf again. It doesn't solve the deeper issues which leads to players picking the top weapons over and over again.

11 hours ago, Cerikus said:

I feel you :D

one day... one day it'll come.

[Skoomaseller]

12 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

No, it's not and no, I don't. DE is focusing on all of the disruptive elements of the game. Is it your intention to ruin everyone else's experience just so you can get what you want? Are you playing in pub, aka a team, but your intentions are to just get your stuff and say screw the squad? If so, then that's what solo is for.

Those are the issues that have ultimately caused these changes. "Git gud" is only shouted out because of the selfishness displayed by those players. If you're not good enough to tackle the harder missions solo, and you need a squad to help you get the rewards, then don't negatively affect the squad with a display of bad behavior. Of course, you just gave  a hint that you're unwilling to do this so, thanks to player feedback and DE's own data, corrections were put in place to help minimize the negative.

In essence, if negatively impacting other players is your style of play, then it should be eliminated or greatly reduced. DE, as the good people they are, wanted to at least meet everyone in the middle. It's just a shame that selfishness won't allow the middle ground to be met.

lmfao. what is this post. "bad behavior" just because people want to complete missions as effectively as possible. "selfishness" HAHA. Get off your high horse.

if you're entering pubs, you should already expect people to not play the same way as you do, and that game quality will vary from game to game. most just want the mission to be done quickly. 

if you have a problem with that, play solo. you have absolute control over the pace of your mission, and any mishap is on you (or the bugs DE still haven't fixed).

[Achlevius]

14 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

It's not really the kind of mission, but low level relic runs with AoE to finish faster the mission

AoE doesn't finish low-level relic runs faster.  All it does is pad the stats of the host / player who loaded into the mission first.  I know this because I've had countless Axi relic runs where I loaded into the mission last with the strongest build I had and only ended up doing like 2% damage because everyone else already got there before I did.  And then everyone had to wait 20 seconds for me to get to the exit.
 

14 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

AoE on Disruption or Interceptions to farm relics...

AoE doesn't kill off single targets (e.g. the bomber in Disruption) any faster than a ST weapon, nor does it make the towers in Interception hack any faster.
 

14 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

In the past, some abilities that also uded to let players farm very fast were nerfed, even though some of them were not very used

Doesn't this just prove that the devs are nerfing abilities because they don't fit a particular design / vision or can be potentially / have been abused (even if by a minority)?

This, as opposed to what many pro-AoE folks here claim, which is that the devs nerf weapons / warframes / mods whenever they become fun / popular?
 

14 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

AoE really make it faster to farm resources (Nekors+AoE, or Hydroid+AoE), to farm relics on Disruptions

If you want to farm relics quickly and efficiently in Disruption, get a decently-geared, competent group.  Whether or not you bring AoE spam weapons into the group won't matter anywhere near as much as having a good group, so any potential nerf to AoE spam weapons isn't going to hurt you here.

[Achlevius]

23 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

With the constant nerfs to viability of CC, kill speed is a defensive tool.

OK, but this is a different argument than the one I was responding to, and what I keep seeing, which is that AoE spam is necessary to make an otherwise boring and tedious game bearable.

(And the irony there is that, it's entirely probable that AoE spam creates a type of gameplay where there is no real engagement with the game, and that is what is actually causing the game to be boring and tedious.)

 

[MechNexus]

12 minutes ago, Achlevius said:

OK, but this is a different argument than the one I was responding to, and what I keep seeing, which is that AoE spam is necessary to make an otherwise boring and tedious game bearable.

(And the irony there is that, it's entirely probable that AoE spam creates a type of gameplay where there is no real engagement with the game, and that is what is actually causing the game to be boring and tedious.)

 

This is why every dev needs to be proactive about shutting down cheese, no matter how sisyphean the task may seem - else we end up with this situation, where people have made the game incredibly boring for themselves, and think the whole game is boring even if it's actually quite fun - they just optimised it out for themselves. 

[Achlevius]

3 minutes ago, MechNexus said:

This is why every dev needs to be proactive about shutting down cheese, no matter how sisyphean the task may seem - else we end up with this situation, where people have made the game incredibly boring for themselves, and think the whole game is boring even if it's actually quite fun - they just optimised it out for themselves. 

On the other hand, they did just that when they fixed Styanax's Final Stand a week after release, and a ton of players complained.

It seems like the devs will get hate no matter what they do. 😅

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

27 minutes ago, Achlevius said:

OK, but this is a different argument than the one I was responding to, and what I keep seeing, which is that AoE spam is necessary to make an otherwise boring and tedious game bearable.

(And the irony there is that, it's entirely probable that AoE spam creates a type of gameplay where there is no real engagement with the game, and that is what is actually causing the game to be boring and tedious.)

 

It honestly is pretty tedious to me to have to individually go to every single enemy, because there are so many, and they never stop spawning.  This is why AOE outside of launchers has always been popular.  At least as long as spawns have been like this.

 

And I have the opposite reaction.  When someone in a squad is being "disruptive" I see it as competition.  It's more fun if someone is racing you for kills.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 18 minutes, Achlevius a dit :

AoE doesn't finish low-level relic runs faster. 

Oh, yes, it does. That's why people used to run relics with AoE and Wukong. That's why some players were considered as disruptive to others and that's why DE created the Steel Path Void Fissure missions.

il y a 20 minutes, Achlevius a dit :

All it does is pad the stats of the host / player who loaded into the mission first.  I know this because I've had countless Axi relic runs where I loaded into the mission last with the strongest build I had and only ended up doing like 2% damage because everyone else already got there before I did. 

This is a matchmaking problem. AoE make even solo missions faster.

il y a 21 minutes, Achlevius a dit :

And then everyone had to wait 20 seconds for me to get to the exit.

Open squads are not really the place where great grinders use to play, but on clan squads or solo and the reason is exactly that one you gave : waiting for others is useless. They farm for hours a specific relic on a sigle mission and then they open it to seel the set on the Market.

People on open squads for relic runs can also use the AoE weapons or AoE abilities, as many content creators make the tactics available for everybody, but open squads is not the best place, that's why, most of the time, the player that wants to go faster will quit the squad if someone is making the squad wait and will put the player on the "ignore list" to prevent a future encounter (why do you think DE had problems with the "ignore list" in the past and had to limit it ? It was very often used to limit matchmaking on open suads to good grinders only).

il y a 29 minutes, Achlevius a dit :

AoE doesn't kill off single targets (e.g. the bomber in Disruption) any faster than a ST weapon, nor does it make the towers in Interception hack any faster.

Yes, it does. On low level a single Bramma shot kills the Demolysher and a key holder at the same time. You just have to nuke everything around. AoE will lose effectiveness only on high level and even there this can be used. I used to farm Prime Access relics on Steel Path Disruptions with Banshee+Kuva Zarr and it worked nice : much more efficient than any single-target weapon.

And for interceptions, when you have a bunch of mobs comming to your tower, what is faster : kill everybody at the same time with one single shot or kill one by one the mobs ? The answer is very easy. Also, there are many points where the enemies can try to control the tower, AoE can deal with all (or at least most of them) at the same time, but single-target can't.

il y a 34 minutes, Achlevius a dit :

Doesn't this just prove that the devs are nerfing abilities because they don't fit a particular design / vision or can be potentially / have been abused (even if by a minority)?

No. This proves that from the very beginning the AoE fits better the game and make farm/grind easier. If you look at an exemple from another game, the news about Overwatch 2 (that is a very different game from Warframe) are a bit curious : the game will become free-to-play and players are already complainig about the high farm needed to get some characters : of course they will develop a META to farm fast. That's what happened to Warframe and what happens to every single game where farm/grind is very important : the game tends to become a kind of second work instead of a real game.

il y a 38 minutes, Achlevius a dit :

This, as opposed to what many pro-AoE folks here claim, which is that the devs nerf weapons / warframes / mods whenever they become fun / popular?

I don't think the Devs nerf stuff when they get popular or fun. Not fun, because the META is almost all the time not fun (to me, META means Most Exasperating Tedious and Annoying). Some people can have fun with, but a great number will use the META only for its efficiency.

Some stuff fits better some game modes, this stuff becomes more used (META) and makes the farm/grind easier : and then it gets nerfed. If you can easily farm everything in a game, you don't need to invest money on that game and this would be very bad for a game developper. Each time the META becomes widely used, it will get nerfed. Stuuf that are populat but that don't have any impact on farm/grind, almost never gets nerfed. Amesha is the most OP archwing ever, and it never got nerfed, as an exemple. There are some clones that are much more used than others, and thay never got nerfed. The same for companions : only some sentinels got some changes (mostly the Carrier). Rubico Prime is much more used than many AoE weapons (Eidolon hunts are the reason) and it never get nerfed : curiously, nobody see the overuse of Rubico Prime on Eidolon hunts as a problem... Volt is extremely used for the same reason as Rubico Prime and it just got a little buff... Here, the dominance is no problem at all, but to AoE...

il y a 53 minutes, Achlevius a dit :

If you want to farm relics quickly and efficiently in Disruption, get a decently-geared, competent group.  Whether or not you bring AoE spam weapons into the group won't matter anywhere near as much as having a good group, so any potential nerf to AoE spam weapons isn't going to hurt you here.

A group ? What for ? A single AoE does it better. You don't even need to pay attention to the Demolisher and (dependaing on the rotation you want) you can activate more than one conduit, sometimes all the four conduits and just nuke everything around to kill just one Demolisher. Disruption rewards are designed in a way that they reward you even when you lose (in purpose) a conduit.

And the great grinders want the relics for them, not for the others.

[Drachnyn]

Why do we even care about people going slow, trying to pick enemies off one at a time. DE can claim it to be a valid gameplay style but their game design speaks otherwise. They made the game an AoE game and are now upset it's an AoE game. The "disruption of play" is nonsense. You are intentionally gimping yourself and by extension your squad by using snipers or whatever. Why does that need to be respected? If you wanna leech, fine. But why be so rightous about it? If someone clears faster than you that means they have just picked the better loadout. Instead of malding to the devs you could try to be a better asset to your team.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

The current meta wasnt playing at all it was nothing but people being lazy and exploiting AOE not having self damage and PSF to avoid knock down so could just shoot them selves in foot repeatedly and not even have to pay attention or even think.  they even referenced several streamed videos when they covered why they feel they had to address the meta for aoe being unintentional

[Drachnyn]

vor 55 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Cargan2016:

The current meta wasnt playing at all it was nothing but people being lazy and exploiting AOE not having self damage and PSF to avoid knock down so could just shoot them selves in foot repeatedly and not even have to pay attention or even think.  they even referenced several streamed videos when they covered why they feel they had to address the meta for aoe being unintentional

What is the functional difference between using the zarr to shoot at your foor and just using a melee weapon?

[PrimalordialBob]

6 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

What is the functional difference between using the zarr to shoot at your foor and just using a melee weapon?

Whichever path you take to kill an enemy, there isn't much skill. Single target weapons boil down to aiming in general direction and clicking. Melee is just spamming the E key. Ability is just spamming 1, 2, 3, or 4. AOE playstyle is like single target playstyle for the most part: aim in an enemy's general direction and click.

If AOE is a braindead way to play the game then pretty much all playstyles are brain dead imo.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

My guess you don't play at lvl 200 steel path fissures or lvl 500 arbitrations 

Yes I do with fissures, not with arbitrations since I tend to be bored after an hour there. It is also in the end content that things shouldnt be balanced around, since most people wont run it. It's simply very optional content, especially since things changed from eximus killing to acolyte killing in SP, which starts to pay off from rotation 1 and onward.

[Maen3]

On 2022-10-02 at 10:03 AM, Skoomaseller said:

ST weapons don't need to be as strong as an explosive AOE weapon. They just have to be a viable alternative, which, I feel, they currently are lacking in that.

ST weapons will never be a viable alternative unless every AOE weapon is useless, every melee weapon is useless and every aoe effect frame is useless. The problem for ST weapons is that the game simply isn't designed for them. Its a horde shooter where you either just run past all the enemies or you need to kill hordes of them as fast as possible. 

The only two exceptions so far is eidolon hunts, and archon hunts(last mission) because its not based around killing hordes of enemies. And big surprise other weapons are more popular for those modes. 

But even if they nerf all aoe effects to the ground you will still be left behind in low level fissures because the enemies still die from a single bullet from your ST weapons, and by the time you load the map the team will be 5 rooms ahead.

[Cerikus]

9 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

that's what I'm saying, see

But then the only solution is to rework ST weapons into AOE weapons and thats stupid.

I agree with the “don’t nerf specific weapons” and DE did not do such a thing. There is not a singular AOE weapon that doesn’t do the same thing it did before the “nerf”. It is what I call an ilusive nerf. DE just needed to scare away people, who don’t bother to try, think and learn.

And I 100% support that.

[Skoomaseller]

30 minutes ago, Maen3 said:

The problem for ST weapons is that the game simply isn't designed for them. Its a horde shooter where you either just run past all the enemies or you need to kill hordes of them as fast as possible. 

yes. I've already covered this in my main comment on the previous page.

[Drachnyn]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb Maen3:

ST weapons will never be a viable alternative unless every AOE weapon is useless, every melee weapon is useless and every aoe effect frame is useless. The problem for ST weapons is that the game simply isn't designed for them. Its a horde shooter where you either just run past all the enemies or you need to kill hordes of them as fast as possible. 

The only two exceptions so far is eidolon hunts, and archon hunts(last mission) because its not based around killing hordes of enemies. And big surprise other weapons are more popular for those modes. 

But even if they nerf all aoe effects to the ground you will still be left behind in low level fissures because the enemies still die from a single bullet from your ST weapons, and by the time you load the map the team will be 5 rooms ahead.

Absolutely correct. The game is by and large not designed for single target weapons to be good. Archon hunts are especially weird in this context because logically, snipers should be incredibly well suited for them, just like how snipers are good in eidolon hunts (atleast before redeemer prime came out). Damage attenuation proving to be the dumbest system imagineable screws that up however.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

11 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

You said "no i don't expect you to play slower for me." Then went on to make an entire argument aboit how I need to play slower for slow people in squads.

Slower? Where and when was "slow for me" ever introduced in anything I said.

I said "bad behavior". I am discussing bad behavior. DE is trying to correct bad behavior. People were complaining about players using bad behavior tactics, such as afk or randomly shooting launchers aimlessly with no regard to team visibility. And now, those players are complaining that they can no longer play the game using those bad behaviors, with some of those players outright saying it. 

Go as fast as you want bro. As long as you now know you can't fire off unlimited aoe blasts and, hopefully soon, not shoot at your feet, you should still be fine to finish the mission asap. 

[Skoomaseller]

47 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

But then the only solution is to rework ST weapons into AOE weapons and thats stupid.

I agree with the “don’t nerf specific weapons” and DE did not do such a thing. There is not a singular AOE weapon that doesn’t do the same thing it did before the “nerf”. It is what I call an ilusive nerf. DE just needed to scare away people, who don’t bother to try, think and learn.

And I 100% support that.

It's not the only solution. As I've said in my main comment, the other solution is to directly fix the deep systematic gameplay issue that leads many players to select weapons/frames that can deal with crowds easily.

But as I've also said, realistically speaking I don't think they're willing to spend resources to rework that. Even though it probably is in my opinion the best long-term solution they have.

I don't think giving ST weapons AOE capabilities is a silly idea. I mean it just makes sense given what the game has become today. And to some degree it already exists – weapons are able to be modded for, or already have innate punch through. But it simply isn't enough.

Obviously, this isn't a one-and-done solution – I don't think simply (just giving a hypothetical here) turning weapons like the Prisma Gorgon into an auto-rocket rifle will solve everything.

But I nonetheless still feel a bump to their ability to clear crowds could really help turn these weapons into picks worth considering, instead of picks not even worth looking at outside of "bored vet hopping into mission with his favourite gun" situations (me and my daikyu, and my Prisma Gorgon, and my twin grakatas, and [incoherent rambling]).

I don't think it's right to say the changes did nothing. It introduced a new balancing lever in the form of ammo pickup and ammo max – this I am fine with and I welcome the change. Even with an ammo mutator, you still need to be careful (i.e., use your brain, as you've implied). That's fine and good.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

Just now, Drachnyn said:

Absolutely correct. The game is by and large not designed for single target weapons to be good. Archon hunts are especially weird in this context because logically, snipers should be incredibly well suited for them, just like how snipers are good in eidolon hunts (atleast before redeemer prime came out). Damage attenuation proving to be the dumbest system imagineable screws that up however.

I used the Daikyu against Boreal and it worked flawlessly! Learning the attenuation timing is key but we took it out within 5 minutes with my bow being the main damage dealer. Other sniper type weapons are equally as good but, just like our adaptation mod, the faster the damage types hit, the faster the DR kicks in. I hope they keep attenuation!

[Proscriptor]

@OP, about your loki scenario:

latron prime with double tap (and punch through coming from prime shred of course) is devastating

invisiblity is amazing

wall latching enables proton snap toxin bonus which means you can save a slot on the weapon (just fit primed cryo) enabling you to fit hunter munitions

legitimate playstyle for many situations

[Drachnyn]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PSN)GEN-Son_17:

I used the Daikyu against Boreal and it worked flawlessly! Learning the attenuation timing is key but we took it out within 5 minutes with my bow being the main damage dealer. Other sniper type weapons are equally as good but, just like our adaptation mod, the faster the damage types hit, the faster the DR kicks in. I hope they keep attenuation!

Ah so when attenuation fails to do what it is designed to achieve then you like it. Hmmmm, I'm sure people one shotting archons with a kuva hek dont mind it all that much either. But those are where the system fails to do what it is meant to do. At a fundamental level it tries to invalidate modding. And that's bad for a game all about modding.

[Achlevius]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

It honestly is pretty tedious to me to have to individually go to every single enemy, because there are so many, and they never stop spawning.

If you find "shooting guns" to be "pretty tedious", then maybe the game isn't for you (anymore)?  I mean, why are you even playing?  If you already have a Kuva Bramma / Zarr, what's the purpose of farming up yet another ST weapon when it will never be good for any of the content in the game?

 

8 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

At least as long as spawns have been like this.

Are we talking Steel Path here?  Railjack?  Outside of those two modes, I've never found the spawn rate of enemies to be particularly overwhelming, unless my weapons were not modded properly (ST or AoE).

In fact, playing solo non-SP / non-RJ tends to have so few spawns that I end up running around looking for enemies.  I refuse to do solo Excavation because the f***ing power carriers spawn so rarely that I end up wasting huge amounts of time with dead excavators.