Is the idea of converting augments into archon shards considered power creep? (that takes two slots instead of one)

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Most of my warframes utilize a tight umbral build that gives them good amount of health while balancing all power stats around 160+%, i can occasionally work around this build to add different mods for Warframes that don't need some stats like Hildryn(energy, efficiency), or Loki(strength)

however with that build it is kind of awkward adding an augment without sacrificing umbral vitality mod or an important stat like efficiency

so i let my imagination go and pictured the idea of converting one augment into an archon shard that takes two slots instead of one.

 

is that considered power creep? some augments don't really make or break Warframes and some are mandatory like Baruuk's reactive storm, so i don't know.

[cute_moth.npc]

I feel like it's hard to classify as power creep and I would not think of it as a straight example? Archon shards themselves are an easy example of power creep, we didn't have to make any kind of sacrifice on our builds, it's just a free new thing to add power with. Consuming shard slots to get an augment is a sacrifice though and in my mind it kind of balances out?

With 2 shard slots I am giving up, I could get 75% casting speed instead of Natural Talent which is a whole mod slot and only gives 50%. Even the basic shards will give me 50%.

Or get +150% extra energy on pick up which is enough to straight up remove Energize on a lot of frames, then a player could do something like putting on a weapon arcane that really boosts damage, etc. I actually got like 80% more DPS on Titania by carefully working shard choices to get 1 arcane slot and 2 mod slots back, they can be very powerful depending on your build.

It's hard to figure out what shard slots are even worth because that varies wildly depending on what you do with your build and what kinds of stats you want to replace but it's not hard to get basically one whole mod slot back out of 2 shards if you are working it right, so it feels fair to me?

I mean.. Convincing the devs to do it is another thing but it's one of the distinctively less crazy ideas that people have and it sounds neat!

[Voltage]

This feels like the meme of the clown putting on his makeup and hair with each panel just being more mod slots. It's getting kinda ridiculous.

[0_The_F00l]

I have supported an alternative to augment slots , or a seperate slot for quite some time.

So i wouldn't mind this personally,

But i can partially already do this , by just replacing some mods in my build with shards and then adding an augment in the space that is freed up.

[L3512]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

is that considered power creep?

Yes.

The core issue here is the same as always, some augments are really powerful and pretty much the centre piece of a build while others are useless. There needs to be some limitations on builds and more mod slots just removes the compromises that players need to balance, which is already very simple. 

[AntifreezeUnder0]

Logical would be if augments had their special bracket. Under action tab. 

Like pre-rework grendel could incorporate all 3 augments and be still deadly in dmg apartment. Now catapult and nourish is somewhat usable , but gourmand is just a joke, and dmg is non existent. And pretty much give nourish to any other frame and can call him better grendel than grendel himself.

 

[taiiat]

yes and no at the same time, Archon Shards functionally represent the same Stats that you can have in your Mod Slots, so it's maintaining your constesting for Slots.
however it's still potentially able to let you Equip more stuff with less tradeoffs, so it can also be yes.

inversely, you could drop a bit of Ability Stats and move them to Archon Shards, and that would give you nearly the same effect too.

 

i don't have a strong opinion either way since it's kinda some of both.

[(XBOX)INe Saninus]

(Reads thread)

 

(Looks around confused)

 

...you realize that shards allow you to replace mods in your build with whatever you want which would include augments, right?

[ReddyDisco]

You can add a bunch of blue shards to replace primed flow or red shards to replace primed continuity/ power strength mod. you can add an augment in that freed up slot.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)INe Saninus said:

(Reads thread)

 

(Looks around confused)

 

...you realize that shards allow you to replace mods in your build with whatever you want which would include augments, right?

Yeah I know that, but for example, if i want to add one augment on my build, i'd have to remove primed continuity and have 4 crimson archon shards and one tau to accommodate for that 55% duration.

 

which is now i think is a good tradeoff and balanced at the same time. 

it's basically the same things i said but instead of augments taking two shard slots they take all 5  

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

This feels like the meme of the clown putting on his makeup and hair with each panel just being more mod slots. It's getting kinda ridiculous.

you know what? this is exactly what it feels like, my bad lol

[Tyreaus]

Main problem with this, and actually one of the seldom-leveraged advantages of a mod slot, is that it treats all augments as equal.

At least with a mod slot, you can adjust augment costs based on how powerful or important a given augment is. It's seldom advocated, but you can.

This is two shard slots, flat, for any augment. And that's the extent of the cost.

[(XBOX)INe Saninus]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

Yeah I know that, but for example, if i want to add one augment on my build, i'd have to remove primed continuity and have 4 crimson archon shards and one tau to accommodate for that 55% duration.

 

which is now i think is a good tradeoff and balanced at the same time. 

it's basically the same things i said but instead of augments taking two shard slots they take all 5  

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse and I think you could sense my lighthearted humor attempt, but...

 

...Primed Continuity is probably not a fair mod for this comparison.

While Primed Flow is an easier target (and something I replace regularly with a few blue shards), they are still PRIMED mods.

I guess I was more referencing Augur Secrets or Message. Mods we use to hit break points or Natural Talent...  things like that.

 

[Skoomaseller]

i think all this just shows how poorly the mod system has aged

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)INe Saninus said:

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse and I think you could sense my lighthearted humor attempt, but...

 

...Primed Continuity is probably not a fair mod for this comparison.

While Primed Flow is an easier target (and something I replace regularly with a few blue shards), they are still PRIMED mods.

I guess I was more referencing Augur Secrets or Message. Mods we use to hit break points or Natural Talent...  things like that.

 

I don't use any of that on my most of my heavy builds

most of the mods i use are the ones from the derelict vaults, like fleeting expertise, narrow minded etc.

i made a build, like i said above, that gives me a lot of health and +60% on every power stat...which makes for a very efficient and effective Warframe that relies on all of their abilities and need a lot of stats

so the only mod i would have to remove that wouldn't mess with that balance and would be easy to counteract with Archon shards is primed continuity.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

22 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

is that considered power creep?

it's only a problem when you aren't willing to make any compromises. something has to give in a build: IMO, unless the frames kit dictates avoiding a certain stat (like Power Strength on Loki as an example), personally I find it's easiest to give efficiency the boot and make up for it with Arcane Energize or Zenurik Focus, typically if your efficiency is at 75% it's not a problem, you just can't spam quite as fast as you would at 100% efficiency unless you have energy support, like Trinity or Harrow as an example. that's just me though, you may choose to mod differently based on which powers you prefer to use.

most augments aren't worth it though, and I sure as hell don't see them being converted for something as precious as Archon Shards. older Augments as a whole need a rework, and Ideally DE could do it at the same time as they rework a particular frame, so for example, Hydroid's rework would buff his augments or change them to something else, depending on exactly how he is reworked. 

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

18 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

I don't use any of that on my most of my heavy builds

most of the mods i use are the ones from the derelict vaults, like fleeting expertise, narrow minded etc.

i made a build, like i said above, that gives me a lot of health and +60% on every power stat...which makes for a very efficient and effective Warframe that relies on all of their abilities and need a lot of stats

so the only mod i would have to remove that wouldn't mess with that balance and would be easy to counteract with Archon shards is primed continuity.

Yeah it's understandable. Certain warframe can't have negative stats. Like Xaku for example. You're just going to give up a mod slot if you really want that augment. One of the many reason why lots of tenno want a dedicated augment slot. 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

On 2/8/2023 at 8:55 PM, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

some augments don't really make or break Warframes and some are mandatory like Baruuk's reactive storm, so i don't know.

This is the main problem for me. I think augments would need to get a lot more balanced before a big change to build-crafting like this can be made. Knowing DE's balancing history, especially with augments, I don't have much hope.

I could see some sort of augment ranking system that determines how many shard slots a particular augment would take up (like Energy Transfer would take 1-2, but Accumulating Whipclaw would take 5), but that's another unintuitive feature that adds more unnecessary complexity, and it's a dial DE would probably neglect turning in the future.

When it comes to augments, I think there are 2 best solutions: You can buff the augment, which obviously makes it more worthy of the mod slot; or you can buff the frame, which makes it easier to drop necessary mods to fit in those augments. Most of the build-craft problems involving augments are limited to individual frames, so those frames should be individually targeted.