Can we replace the Archon fights with another regular mission?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, Vryheid said:

So let me see here. Spending 15 minutes on a once-per-week boss fight for some guaranteed endgame rewards is just too "mindless" and not "challenging" enough for your action packed, excitement-filled existence, but you think sticking in some generic starchart mission instead is somehow a better alternative? Do you realize sorties exist? Or steel path incursions? Or arbitrations? Or any of the other dozen variations on the standard game modes that we've had access to for years now? How are you going to pretend that turning the capstone Archon Hunt boss fight into Sortie 2.0 is somehow going to make it less boring? Play with a loadout that doesn't cheese through the boss mechanics if you want it more challenge to it, nobody is forcing you to go in on easy-mode with an invisibility frame and a Kuva Hek. 

 

I'd like to see some adjustments to damage attenuation and AI behavior to make the fight more about learning the boss mechanics and less of a DPS race, but removing the fights entirely is a terrible idea.

I’m saying it’ll be more mentally stimulating than just shooting at a thing and waiting for it to die for 20 minutes.

Honestly, I don’t understand the logic your argument is operating under here. Are you saying the Archon Fights aren’t boring simply because of the reward? Because my idea would still involve you getting an archon shard at the end.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, m_a_r_c_h_ said:

I understand your point of view, except I like to play for a little longer than most non endless missions and the hunt comes with what I feel are worthwhile rewards, so worth the time to do them. It’s just a matter of preference and most people playing WF seem to want to speed run missions. I have all the gear I need, so am not in a hurry like most. Like I mentioned, once a week and then go back to whatever you find fun. The Phenmor though, chef’s kiss!

Sorry, but just because you don’t see an issue with a boss that’s nothing but a 20 minute bullet sponge doesn’t mean there isn’t a serious issue with a boss who’s only real mechanic is being a 20 minute bullet sponge. That’s not engaging. That’s not challenging. And most importantly. It’s not fun.

preference does not excuse made game design.

[MutoManiac]

57 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Sorry, but just because you don’t see an issue with a boss that’s nothing but a 20 minute bullet sponge doesn’t mean there isn’t a serious issue with a boss who’s only real mechanic is being a 20 minute bullet sponge. That’s not engaging. That’s not challenging. And most importantly. It’s not fun.

preference does not excuse made game design.

I usually do sorties solo, but I’m enjoying going in pubs these days. What happened today was that the exterminate was over by the time I loaded in (I have 150 mbit down), then with the sabotage, the same happened and for the assassination pretty much as I was headed to the target the extraction icon appeared. That’s not fun or challenging either, so preferences do matter. And the archon boss phase takes anywhere between 5 and 10 minutes, not 20 and that’s with just very average players such as myself. I’m not saying the hunts are great game design, but there’s enough going on that it makes them more interesting than a lot of the other missions. So to the OP, no, we shouldn’t replace them with the same missions we do every day.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, m_a_r_c_h_ said:

I usually do sorties solo, but I’m enjoying going in pubs these days. What happened today was that the exterminate was over by the time I loaded in (I have 150 mbit down), then with the sabotage, the same happened and for the assassination pretty much as I was headed to the target the extraction icon appeared. That’s not fun or challenging either, so preferences do matter. And the archon boss phase takes anywhere between 5 and 10 minutes, not 20 and that’s with just very average players such as myself. I’m not saying the hunts are great game design, but there’s enough going on that it makes them more interesting than a lot of the other missions. So to the OP, no, we shouldn’t replace them with the same missions we do every day.

I literally timed it. It took me and 2 randoms 20 minutes to get through this weeks archon fight.

[-AncientWarrior-]

On 2023-04-19 at 11:32 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

At least until some change to them is maybe someday implemented probably?

Because I am getting sick of wasting 15-20 minutes of my life mindlessly shooting at a bullet sponge. There’s not even any challenge to it.

Mate, me and 1 or 2 clan mates do ours Mondays evening (NZ time), easy no fuss cruise nothing special .. 6 mins good run, 8-10 minutes when we stuff up .. you're welcome to come with us .. (we dont do public because of exactly what you said) :) 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

14 hours ago, quxier said:

To be honest you are the first user that says that they enjoy archon fight in current state (not from new war quest as OP/Drifter). I don't mean that there aren't people that enjoy it. However I don't think there are "many" of you. I think people are either neutral (that e.g. can trivialize fights by "one shooting" it) or don't like it.

 

I mean yeah, thats what I said "probably a larger subsection of players who are more neutral", but its also tricky too, because we are a very small and limited population/representative, of a much much larger group. There are other complications. Like there can often be a pattern, on certain platforms, for negative sentiment to be more frequently expressed than positive. Its a larger more nuanced topic, but such patterns can often be observed on say, this website. Its a well observed human behaviour and habit as well around conformity. Thats more complicated too, since you can have contrarians, deviation etc but as a general example, if you have a lot of people being negative about something. People who have a more positive outlook may not want to participate or express their perspective, because they may not want to defend or justify their stance to a room of angry individuals. Can work in the opposite as well. 

Reddit has a larger base of people than these Forums, and even here (in fact the reply right after mine) can have more positive sentiment towards Archoms. Amongst friends who play the games, in other social media, other types of feedback like surveys... I still remember how negative people were about Angels of Zariman update in the forums, but a few weeks later, Surveys trends much more positively. 

Then there is also individuals capacity and skill in assessing all this on top. Plus the awareness of lack of data. I personally use a lot of qualifying terms, like probably, tend to, depending, based on, just because again, sample size, potential flaws in observation and experience, depth of records we have access to. 

Regardless since this topic comes up a bit, its still surprising to me, to realise that a "decent" chunk of people enjoy the Archon bosses besides me, because I see them in such threads. Then it gets more complicated because of what you can extrapolate from that (many exclusive Forum users often have really flawed understanding of what the larger base desires or prefers, but again thats complicated too and depends on specifics). Naturally its not a Warframe thing, its a people and perception thing in general. You add in any sort of numbers and statistics and things can potentially get even more inaccurate. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Eh, there is decent challenge and simulation in making sure you are close enough to the Archon to ensure your Alt Fire lands a clean hit, ensuring all the multishot/pellets hit the head box. They do move, so you need to have some accuracy and timing. You also need to have some awareness of the landscape to avoid being killed, plus some of the buffs for your weapon require killing or shooting adds. 

Of course, all this doesn't mean that individuals may find the challenge satisfying or well crafted, but the thing with language and bias? Is that anyone could name any challenge they consider gratifying, great or well designed or executed and I can find a way to employ reductive language to make it sound less than. 

Gets more complicated too, since challenge can be defined in different ways, and also solved in different ways. Flexibility is often a solution to many times of difficulty, but not all players are necessarily as flexible as others, whether by choice, preference or ability. 

Its also independent to such things as fun, as well as not necessarily being inherently positive or negative. 

[AntifreezeUnder0]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Sorry, but just because you don’t see an issue with a boss that’s nothing but a 20 minute bullet sponge doesn’t mean there isn’t a serious issue with a boss who’s only real mechanic is being a 20 minute bullet sponge. That’s not engaging. That’s not challenging. And most importantly. It’s not fun.

preference does not excuse made game design.

If your group takes 20 mins to deal with it, means you were not prepared correctly. 

[(XBOX)K1jker]

For me the archon fight is more fun than the 2 boring missions that have to be completed first.. especially when it's defense 🤢 or boring hide and seek disruption 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

If your group takes 20 mins to deal with it, means you were not prepared correctly. 

Yeah I know “just exploit the damage attenuation delay. Problem solved”.

9 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Eh, there is decent challenge and simulation in making sure you are close enough to the Archon to ensure your Alt Fire lands a clean hit, ensuring all the multishot/pellets hit the head box. They do move, so you need to have some accuracy and timing. You also need to have some awareness of the landscape to avoid being killed, plus some of the buffs for your weapon require killing or shooting adds. 

Of course, all this doesn't mean that individuals may find the challenge satisfying or well crafted, but the thing with language and bias? Is that anyone could name any challenge they consider gratifying, great or well designed or executed and I can find a way to employ reductive language to make it sound less than. 

Gets more complicated too, since challenge can be defined in different ways, and also solved in different ways. Flexibility is often a solution to many times of difficulty, but not all players are necessarily as flexible as others, whether by choice, preference or ability. 

Its also independent to such things as fun, as well as not necessarily being inherently positive or negative. 

Just because the boss moves around doesn’t mean making it a bullet sponge is a good design.

[Mediloric]

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Just because the boss moves around doesn’t mean making it a bullet sponge is a good design.

 

I don't consider the boss a bullet sponge. I can beat them solo or in a group in less than 30 seconds with a few different guns and builds. 

Not that I consider your experience with these bosses as being a bullet sponge inaccurate either. The Phantasma makes many Steel Path Acolytes bullet sponges for example. You just don't want to prepare or pick the tools that would make the fight faster, and correct me if I am wrong, you are under the belief that you shouldn't have to right? That the boss should be designed in a way where you don't have to? Which yeah, sure, thats the nature of preferences and opinions over such matters. 

[AntifreezeUnder0]

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Yeah I know “just exploit the damage attenuation delay. Problem solved”.

even with hirudo on solo i can manage sub 20 min. And i use grendel.  Just you need dmg buffed , heavy hitter wep, preferably with multi shot. Chroma just wipes floor with archon if shots properly.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

On 2023-04-19 at 9:02 AM, drnlmza said:

Although it is somewhat unfortunate that the final mission of the Archon Hunt, which should be something of a capstone mission in the game (only available once a week, valued rewards, etc) is also one of those missions where warframe's public multiplayer breaks down. You have several aspects (the increasing health with squad size, the timing aspects of the damage attenuation (requiring more attention to when people are engaging with the boss), the revive mechanics (requiring more attention on the state of the squad) and so on) that all discourage trying to run this with a public squad.

This is where the multiplayer is supposed to kick in....because all that time acquiring experience and knowledge (and gear) is supposed to lead up to that point. 

The game is assuming you played for awhile and reached certain stages to even access the fight.

On 2023-04-20 at 10:15 AM, quxier said:

I'm not sure if people like bullet sponges with boss design. Boss are supposed to be somehow challenging. What's challenging in hitting rock for e.g. 5 minutes? There is no challenge.

Bosses should show some of their move however having huge health shouldn't be only thing that defines boss.

Oh, it's good to know. I'm using "stuff" and "thing" with similar meaning and 2nd word has plural form (or however it's called).

It's not a bullet sponge if the fight is still easy. There are still plenty of games out now with 30 minute to 2 hour + boss fights. 

This seems more like a person having adjustment issues since they've done 2 minute captures for years on end. 

On 2023-04-20 at 11:06 AM, Pizzarugi said:

If you already know how the fight goes, making the boss be an absolute bullet sponge for several minutes doesn't add new challenge. You know how to avoid getting hurt, you know their mechanics, hell you may even be using a frame that makes their attacks a non-issue (eg. Rhino, Nezha, Revenant). Why do we need to drag this fight out for longer than it's welcome?

Typically I use a Phenmor and while it's not a cheese weapon since it has no burst power, the infinite ammo in its Incarnon form means I don't spend the entire mission shooting it in the face and then run out of ammo due to its damage attenuation kicking in.

This is basic experience you're describing, and comes with learning anything. There shouldn't be any issues completing the fight in a timely manner if you have the knowledge you claim you do.

You're arguing that 5 to 15 minutes is some ridiculously long amount of time when it's not. 

On 2023-04-20 at 5:09 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Sorry, but just because you don’t see an issue with a boss that’s nothing but a 20 minute bullet sponge doesn’t mean there isn’t a serious issue with a boss who’s only real mechanic is being a 20 minute bullet sponge. That’s not engaging. That’s not challenging. And most importantly. It’s not fun.

preference does not excuse made game design.

I'll also repeat what another user said above: there's an issue with your group alone if your fights are 20 minutes. 

[quxier]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

On 2023-04-20 at 4:15 PM, quxier said:

I'm not sure if people like bullet sponges with boss design. Boss are supposed to be somehow challenging. What's challenging in hitting rock for e.g. 5 minutes? There is no challenge.

Bosses should show some of their move however having huge health shouldn't be only thing that defines boss.

Oh, it's good to know. I'm using "stuff" and "thing" with similar meaning and 2nd word has plural form (or however it's called).

It's not a bullet sponge if the fight is still easy. There are still plenty of games out now with 30 minute to 2 hour + boss fights. 

That's exactly bullet sponge definition: boss doesn't come with too much challenge expect huge hp.

[Pizzarugi]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You're arguing that 5 to 15 minutes is some ridiculously long amount of time when it's not. 

It is when the boss isn't posing much of a challenge and you're just standing there holding the mouse button down while aiming at their face, watching their health bar chip away very slowly.

When you're new to Archon Hunts, they are challenging. Once you understand how to fight them, they're high level bullet sponges.

[Vaml77]

Archon missions turned out to be worse than sorties....they take much longer and the reward at the end is almost always the same...endo/anasa/credit boosters or zaw/kitgun. I don't do these missions anymore and neither do the sorties...the truth is that I stopped playing warframe. Nothing convinces me to waste my precious time on warframe anymore....I have much better things to play...that's the truth.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

8 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

It is when the boss isn't posing much of a challenge and you're just standing there holding the mouse button down while aiming at their face, watching their health bar chip away very slowly.

When you're new to Archon Hunts, they are challenging. Once you understand how to fight them, they're high level bullet sponges.

And that's literally every game. Especially when you describe it that way. You're pressing buttons and collecting 0s and 1s that you're not even gonna remember in 30 years. So it sounds like you're just bored or played the game too much and it's affecting your judgement.

Challenge is different to everyone. 

Whatever you magically think is the best challenge....someone else isn't going to agree with you. 

So what is it? Puzzles? Coordinated switches? If you want a shorter fight, that's going to be boring and underwhelming to others. 

So what's your all-encompassing, super original and new solution that you think every player wants to have ultra mega fun?

[quxier]

9 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

It is when the boss isn't posing much of a challenge and you're just standing there holding the mouse button down while aiming at their face, watching their health bar chip away very slowly.

When you're new to Archon Hunts, they are challenging. Once you understand how to fight them, they're high level bullet sponges.

I would argue that they are challenging at first (not counting New war version). When I first started archon stuff by my pretty good frame I get melted. My knowledge about surviving where for nothing. I've picked easy stuff - almost immortality. That's not challenge at all.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

And that's literally every game. Especially when you describe it that way. You're pressing buttons and collecting 0s and 1s that you're not even gonna remember in 30 years. So it sounds like you're just bored or played the game too much and it's affecting your judgement.

You have to read "deeper".

@Pizzarugi said:

- stand still (aka not moving)

- shoot it

- watch its hp slowly drain

In lots of games I have to at least move. For example in 1st Bloodrayne there is bullet sponge boss. I cannot just stand and hit it. I need to move.... and if I remember correctly I have to even escape it from time to time (move away from the enemy).

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Whatever you magically think is the best challenge....someone else isn't going to agree with you. 

So what is it? Puzzles? Coordinated switches? If you want a shorter fight, that's going to be boring and underwhelming to others. 

So what's your all-encompassing, super original and new solution that you think every player wants to have ultra mega fun?

Sure, it's subjective however just prolonging fight won't magically make fight better.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

51 minutes ago, quxier said:

I would argue that they are challenging at first (not counting New war version). When I first started archon stuff by my pretty good frame I get melted. My knowledge about surviving where for nothing. I've picked easy stuff - almost immortality. That's not challenge at all.

You have to read "deeper".

@Pizzarugi said:

- stand still (aka not moving)

- shoot it

- watch its hp slowly drain

In lots of games I have to at least move. For example in 1st Bloodrayne there is bullet sponge boss. I cannot just stand and hit it. I need to move.... and if I remember correctly I have to even escape it from time to time (move away from the enemy).

Sure, it's subjective however just prolonging fight won't magically make fight better.

....you can move and shoot in warframe....

But him deciding to arbitrarily move around or go attack an eximus isn't what he wants to do. 

 

[quxier]

34 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

....you can move and shoot in warframe....

33 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

 

But him deciding to arbitrarily move around or go attack an eximus isn't what he wants to do. 

That wasn't the point. Of course you can move while shooting. The point they were making is that you don't have to move to kill boss.

ps. I think he mentioned Archons not Eximus.

 

[Pizzarugi]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

ps. I think he mentioned Archons not Eximus.

Yes, I was talking about Archons. Eximus isn't a problem at all for anyone who isn't new to the game.

[Yamazuki]

20 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It's not a bullet sponge if the fight is still easy. There are still plenty of games out now with 30 minute to 2 hour + boss fights. 

Bullet sponge, or sandbag, is just a term for an enemy with unreasonably high health. It has nothing to do with difficulty. The existence of long fights in other games are irrelevant and you're omitting important context. A lot of them have similar health to standard end-game bosses but get dragged on by the fact you're dealing with either multiple enemies or a series of mechanics that have to be dealt with or you'll fail. To equate archon fights to any of that is beyond silly.

The archon fights are just cheat DE's mitigation mechanic or be punished with a drawn out extremely dull boss. The fights have no legitimate mechanic, you're just slapping the enemy around without caring about anything. There's no side objective or anything else you are required to focus on. If DE doesn't want people instantly killing these standard enemies cosplaying as bosses, I would prefer phases with alternate objectives between them, you know, making it so having their health reaching 0 isn't the only goal.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

20 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

Bullet sponge, or sandbag, is just a term for an enemy with unreasonably high health. It has nothing to do with difficulty. The existence of long fights in other games are irrelevant and you're omitting important context. A lot of them have similar health to standard end-game bosses but get dragged on by the fact you're dealing with either multiple enemies or a series of mechanics that have to be dealt with or you'll fail. To equate archon fights to any of that is beyond silly.

The archon fights are just cheat DE's mitigation mechanic or be punished with a drawn out extremely dull boss. The fights have no legitimate mechanic, you're just slapping the enemy around without caring about anything. There's no side objective or anything else you are required to focus on. If DE doesn't want people instantly killing these standard enemies cosplaying as bosses, I would prefer phases with alternate objectives between them, you know, making it so having their health reaching 0 isn't the only goal.

There's already a phase with an alternate objective....

And since you're claiming the fight is dull, I'm assuming you've never gone more than 15 minutes in a mission, correct? 

Any game can be dull and boring depending on the human's state of mind that plays it, along with a whole host of other factors like time in game, how long they've been sitting down and playing that day, gear, teamwork, team knowledge etc. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 hours ago, quxier said:

That wasn't the point. Of course you can move while shooting. The point they were making is that you don't have to move to kill boss.

ps. I think he mentioned Archons not Eximus.

 

And adding some final fantasy style mechanic, where a large highlighted area tells you to move to avoid danger doesn't miraculously make the fight any more interesting.