It takes almost half a year to collect all the incarnon adapters- Timegated FOMO is the wrong direction for WF

[PublikDomain]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which doesnt solve the problem of evergreens added to Circuit to make people play it, since again those things are already stockpiled at this point in time.

How doesn't it?

• No use for extra stockpiled adapters = no reason to get more adapters = two less reasons to play each week
• Add use for extra stockpiled adapters = reason to get more adapters = two more reasons to play each week

Adding more evergreens adds more reasons to replay that content.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Plus how does more RNG items make a mode rewarding? Ah lets spend some hours here to maybe get a reward?

Well, yes. When the current expectation is spending hours to get no reward, obviously having more than no reward is more rewarding. How is it not? Anything is more rewarding than nothing.

And if specific Arcanes are all you care about (else why would Acrithis' RNG matter?) .... just buy those Arcane when they show up? Save your Clamps and buy it when it's available. There is no "maybe", it's guaranteed that every Arcane will show up in Acrithis' shop. They'd show up even more often if there were more than just 1 per day, as I've repeatedly brought up, which I think should be fine. Other Arcane token shops already offer the entire selection with no limits at all times, so you ain't gonna see me moaning about adding more options to Acrithis.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Worth it for most people at that point in the game i.e done with static Circuit rewards (adapters). Which likely isnt more clamps at an extremely slow rate. I'm honestly not sure what you (as in you you) need clamps for at that point, or how you see any worth in them. Or how you'd see clamps rewarded at such a slow rate as rewarding for your time spent. So ask yourself aswell, who should it be worth it to? You? 

"Most people" being who, people who think exactly like you? Because I don't see any value at all in Arcanes, and like anyone else keeping up I'm just about done with the Circuit's main rewards. And it's not like I've told you repeatedly what I'd like to spend Clamps on, maybe pay attention? But to answer my own question again, since you can't seem to: everyone. It should be worth it to everyone. Not just me, not just you, everyone. And that's the nice thing about a token shop: everyone is free to pursue things they value by spending tokens on what they find worth it. There's no little dictator decreeing that only Arcanes have any value as a reward, everyone is free to decide for themselves.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes that is exactly what I'm saying, clans having nothing to do since there is no endgame content to do

So your solution to this is.... do nothing and not have anything for people to do?

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm curious as to which games you've played that have had vast clan systems that have also managed to keep the game and clans alive for prolonged periods of time.

On just social systems? Very few. But that's why having more than just one type of endgame is so important, as I've repeated to you so many times. How many games have you played that have survived on just their "endgame" raids or whatever narrow band of content meets your criteria? I'd imagine about the same tiny amount. A wide, diverse endgame that contains many different options for its many different players will be more resilient than one that doesn't. It isn't rocket science.

Anyways, the first group that came to mind is ShackTac, which is an active community playing Arma games since 2006. All they do is play scenarios with themselves. I have a colleague still playing SW:TOR running a community of some sort, though I don't follow him closely enough to know what they do over there. VRChat is nothing but a big social system and it's seen constant growth over the last few years. Does Second Life still exist? That's been around for what, decades now? Plenty of communities there. People are still playing FF:XIV, which has a big emphasis on its social systems. I have a friend still playing RuneScape with his group. Plenty of examples are out there if you can be bothered to look.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

How doesn't it?

• No use for extra stockpiled adapters = no reason to get more adapters = two less reasons to play each week
• Add use for extra stockpiled adapters = reason to get more adapters = two more reasons to play each week

Adding more evergreens adds more reasons to replay that content.

Well, yes. When the current expectation is spending hours to get no reward, obviously having more than no reward is more rewarding. How is it not? Anything is more rewarding than nothing.

And if specific Arcanes are all you care about (else why would Acrithis' RNG matter?) .... just buy those Arcane when they show up? Save your Clamps and buy it when it's available. There is no "maybe", it's guaranteed that every Arcane will show up in Acrithis' shop. They'd show up even more often if there were more than just 1 per day, as I've repeatedly brought up, which I think should be fine. Other Arcane token shops already offer the entire selection with no limits at all times, so you ain't gonna see me moaning about adding more options to Acrithis.

"Most people" being who, people who think exactly like you? Because I don't see any value at all in Arcanes, and like anyone else keeping up I'm just about done with the Circuit's main rewards. And it's not like I've told you repeatedly what I'd like to spend Clamps on, maybe pay attention? But to answer my own question again, since you can't seem to: everyone. It should be worth it to everyone. Not just me, not just you, everyone. And that's the nice thing about a token shop: everyone is free to pursue things they value by spending tokens on what they find worth it. There's no little dictator decreeing that only Arcanes have any value as a reward, everyone is free to decide for themselves.

So your solution to this is.... do nothing and not have anything for people to do?

On just social systems? Very few. But that's why having more than just one type of endgame is so important, as I've repeated to you so many times. How many games have you played that have survived on just their "endgame" raids or whatever narrow band of content meets your criteria? I'd imagine about the same tiny amount. A wide, diverse endgame that contains many different options for its many different players will be more resilient than one that doesn't. It isn't rocket science.

Anyways, the first group that came to mind is ShackTac, which is an active community playing Arma games since 2006. All they do is play scenarios with themselves. I have a colleague still playing SW:TOR running a community of some sort, though I don't follow him closely enough to know what they do over there. VRChat is nothing but a big social system and it's seen constant growth over the last few years. Does Second Life still exist? That's been around for what, decades now? Plenty of communities there. People are still playing FF:XIV, which has a big emphasis on its social systems. I have a friend still playing RuneScape with his group. Plenty of examples are out there if you can be bothered to look.

It would have the same value as endo or credits at that point. Tell me how often you go and do random missions for endo or credits instead of specific ones like arbitrations, index or a specific disruption? How often do you go and do Void Storms to crack relics instead of just doing fissures or SP? Getting those things from Circuit would be the same deal, since there is a better option to get the same things. Unless of course you now want adapters to just be a new token straight up for a new store page. Which just makes us carry yet another token out of way too many already.

No anything isnt more than nothing, hence why we see complaints about endo and credits as is from all new content releases.

And arcanes isnt all I care about. I'm trying to come up with a reward that actually brings us back specifically to play Circuit. Like I've said, which you seem completely unable to comprehend is that adding clamp items to Acrithis would not bring players back to Circuit since it would not be an efficient way to obtain clamps. Like I asked up above, how often do/did you do those less rewarding missions for those rewards when something better was available? It is not a solution that would help Circuit to see higher usage. What is so hard to get with that. But here an example.

25 minute normal Experience/Story = 10 clamps.

25-35 minutes SP Experience/Story = 15 clamps. (skipping arcanes here)

1-2 hours of Circuit = Tier 5 15, 20, 30(?) clamps. Utter and total waste.

"Most people" would include DE that you yourself quoted as labeling arcanes as evergreen, which you agreed with (otherwise I'm not sure why you'd post it when asked what you think evergreen is). And you also seem to not really get the main point. Which isnt that arcanes must be it, just that arcanes from there would incentivice players to play Circuit specifically as opposed to an item you can farm more of elsewhere. We can add anything there which requires you to visit Circuit to get it, that is my main point. Arcanes were a quick example that would achieve that goal. Clamps just arent. As I said at first, games tend to solve it by puking millions of different tokens or currencies at you specifically tied to the mode.

Regarding how many games I've played that have survived on just their "endgame". All of them. They'd died or dropped to near death due to eventually getting abandoned or put into maintenence mode, resulting in no more updates and no more endgame.

The games you bring up are not of the same genre as WF though. Arma isnt a looter shooter or arpg or a loot hunt game. WF is not a chat or social system. And the other games you mention are MMOs, that need social systems to work. But they dont live thanks to those systems, they live thanks to their constant updates through either patches or expansions. Where new endgame encounters are added on a constant basis. And that Runescape is alive still is no indication of it being to a social system, just as DaoC is still alive, or FFXI. DaoC lives on the RvR, FFXI lives on the oldschool MMO PvE. One could say those two benefit from social aspects since you need to party, or in DaoCs case you need to organize raids for RvR, both for defense and offense etc. In the end though it comes down to the combat and the rewards you eventually are rewarded.

Considering how poorly people act regarding new mechanics in updates, like RJ, Drifter and so on, imagine the exodus if DE were to focus on a vague social release that only brings stuff to the dojo and some social systems and calling it "endgame". Like some Sims module for WF.

[Tellmeninetails]

On 2023-04-30 at 6:42 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

I like having things to do in game.

This is it. This trumps any argument. 

[PublikDomain]

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And you also seem to not really get the main point. Which isnt that arcanes must be it, just that arcanes from there would incentivice players to play Circuit specifically as opposed to an item you can farm more of elsewhere. We can add anything there which requires you to visit Circuit to get it, that is my main point.

Which isn't the point of adding evergreens. You're the one not getting it, lol. The point of adding evergreens (and other "personal endgame goals") is to incentivize players to play the game, not specifically the Circuit. Hence why your "but grinding muh experience is more efficient" is so irrelevant. If adding an evergreen to the Circuit gets a few more people to play more of the Circuit for longer (and thus, the game), great! If some people would rather play the Experience for longer (and thus, the game), great! Or if they would rather go play elsewhere for longer (and thus, the game), great! That's all fine. What's not fine is having no reason to engage with big chunks of content because the only rewards there have dried up and there's nothing else.

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It would have the same value as endo or credits at that point.

...

25 minute normal Experience/Story = 10 clamps.

25-35 minutes SP Experience/Story = 15 clamps. (skipping arcanes here)

1-2 hours of Circuit = Tier 5 15, 20, 30(?) clamps. Utter and total waste.

And if you don't value it, so what? Don't get it. Or go play the Experience if you think it's so much better. You're free to spend your time however you like. Ideally we all would be, hence the value of things like token shops that let everyone choose what they find valuable for themselves.

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No anything isnt more than nothing

Could you care to explain why you think 1 is not greater than 0? Because I'm missing a mathematical proof here or something. And even Endo and Credits is better than nothing. Nothing is zero. Endo and Credits are not zero. Not much more than zero for you and I, maybe, but it's better than nothing. Even I would take Endo and Credits over nothing. And get this: you're not the only person playing the game. Some people do value Endo and Credits. 😱 Maybe you can't see past yourself to understand that, but that's not my problem.

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Regarding how many games I've played that have survived on just their "endgame". All of them. They'd died or dropped to near death due to eventually getting abandoned or put into maintenence mode, resulting in no more updates and no more endgame.

Maybe think about what this means some more... This isn't anything to brag about, dude. Because in other words, that one type of endgame you're fixated on has been unsustainable. I'm not sure how you say these games have "survived" when "they've died or dropped to near death". How have they survived if they're dead??? And they've died because the content has stopped and nothing else was there to sustain them??? That's not good!? "My examples are dead" just isn't very convincing.

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The games you bring up are not of the same genre as WF though.

So? You asked for examples of games with groups that have stayed alive for a long time, I provided:

On 2023-08-10 at 4:31 AM, SneakyErvin said:

I'm curious as to which games you've played that have had vast clan systems that have also managed to keep the game and clans alive for prolonged periods of time.

I don't see some goofy qualifier like "they must be on a list of examples I approve". And they seem to be doing a lot better than all of the games you say have died off. 🙄

While we're at it, I'll add to that list the huge number of communities in games like Minecraft. Great example, not sure how it slipped my mind. No "endgame" of the type you're so adamant about yet plenty of healthy communities who get by on the game's constructive and social systems. Microsoft could say "piss off we're done" and never update Minecraft again and that game would continue along like nothing happened because of its in-built resilience and naturally sustainable gameplay and communities.

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Considering how poorly people act regarding new mechanics in updates, like RJ, Drifter and so on, imagine the exodus if DE were to focus on a vague social release that only brings stuff to the dojo and some social systems and calling it "endgame". Like some Sims module for WF.

Exodus, lol. Yeah, how terrible that clans might have a use for their dojos again other than the trading post and dry dock. And in case you aren't paying attention, which it seems like you're not, DE adds things to IkeaFrame all the time. Where's the exodus, Sneaky? This is just another "if it's not content I approve of the game will die :(((".

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Which isn't the point of adding evergreens. You're the one not getting it, lol. The point of adding evergreens (and other "personal endgame goals") is to incentivize players to play the game, not specifically the Circuit. Hence why your "but grinding muh experience is more efficient" is so irrelevant. If adding an evergreen to the Circuit gets a few more people to play more of the Circuit for longer (and thus, the game), great! If some people would rather play the Experience for longer (and thus, the game), great! Or if they would rather go play elsewhere for longer (and thus, the game), great! That's all fine. What's not fine is having no reason to engage with big chunks of content because the only rewards there have dried up and there's nothing else.

And if you don't value it, so what? Don't get it. Or go play the Experience if you think it's so much better. You're free to spend your time however you like. Ideally we all would be, hence the value of things like token shops that let everyone choose what they find valuable for themselves.

Could you care to explain why you think 1 is not greater than 0? Because I'm missing a mathematical proof here or something. And even Endo and Credits is better than nothing. Nothing is zero. Endo and Credits are not zero. Not much more than zero for you and I, maybe, but it's better than nothing. Even I would take Endo and Credits over nothing. And get this: you're not the only person playing the game. Some people do value Endo and Credits. 😱 Maybe you can't see past yourself to understand that, but that's not my problem.

Maybe think about what this means some more... This isn't anything to brag about, dude. Because in other words, that one type of endgame you're fixated on has been unsustainable. I'm not sure how you say these games have "survived" when "they've died or dropped to near death". How have they survived if they're dead??? And they've died because the content has stopped and nothing else was there to sustain them??? That's not good!? "My examples are dead" just isn't very convincing.

So? You asked for examples of games with groups that have stayed alive for a long time, I provided:

I don't see some goofy qualifier like "they must be on a list of examples I approve". And they seem to be doing a lot better than all of the games you say have died off. 🙄

While we're at it, I'll add to that list the huge number of communities in games like Minecraft. Great example, not sure how it slipped my mind. No "endgame" of the type you're so adamant about yet plenty of healthy communities who get by on the game's constructive and social systems. Microsoft could say "piss off we're done" and never update Minecraft again and that game would continue along like nothing happened because of its in-built resilience and naturally sustainable gameplay and communities.

Exodus, lol. Yeah, how terrible that clans might have a use for their dojos again other than the trading post and dry dock. And in case you aren't paying attention, which it seems like you're not, DE adds things to IkeaFrame all the time. Where's the exodus, Sneaky? This is just another "if it's not content I approve of the game will die :(((".

Which is already solved by the mode itself since it awards arcanes and dupe adapters for the people that might want multiples to put them on all weapons. So there is already a purpose for that mode itself if people want to engage with it further. If they are past the point of needing adapters they miss out on loot in 2 out of infinite tiers. Which really isnt unlike the rest of the game where we might have mod X already from whatever rota.

It isnt as simple as being about math. Certain things are simply worth nothing, or less than nothing at a certain point in time in these types of games. And since this is SP content, endo and credits is just that, worth less than nothing. Adding something equally worthless wouldnt really help in any way, much less so when it is tied to 2 tiers only awarded once per week. I dont see any point in adding something as worthless as that to something that is so limited. Feels like a total waste in devtime really. People that keep playing the mode likely just enjoy it and wouldnt play it more or less if something as worthless as clamps, endo or credits were added to those two tiers.

But those games have had other systems aswell, just not the types of systems the players played the game for. So when only that social content was left together with old "endgame" content, the games dies because the social aspects couldnt sustain it. And how is what WF does unsustainable? Or how is it unsustainable in the other games? Seems pretty sustainable for games like WoW that turns 20 next year and FFXI and DaoC that are already older than that.

You really need to read context mate. Or uhm maybe start reading in general. No one said there was an exodus, I said imagine if they added an update with only social stuff and labeled it endgame. As in only that and nothing else for the game. I have zero problem with them adding things to the dojo or cosmetics overall etc. since the game needs it and it is released together with other things. But lets face it, we arent playing Simsframe, so if they were to add a social update only it would recieve worse backlash than what we've already seen. Do you not remember the reactions regarding the classroom showcase of TNW where people went nuts and thought it would be some social minigame similar to Persona (that is the name right?). I could see a social aspect added, like the re-introduction of solar conflicts, but since the game isnt an MMO or even run on dedicated servers it would just be another mess on the pile of host migrations and connection issues.

[PublikDomain]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which is already solved by the mode itself since it awards arcanes and dupe adapters for the people that might want multiples to put them on all weapons.

Which is a finite process that ends. I'll just let @SneakyErvin explain to you why this is:

On 2023-08-11 at 3:28 AM, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-08-10 at 3:58 PM, Binket_ said:

Personally? Arcanes.
There's a few good ones in there, Arcane Reaper comes to mind.

I'm not saying it's THE BEST option, but having them tradable is a far cry from making Circuit more dead than it is now sooooo...

Well yeah but we only need them once, after that there is no point. And with the 5 adapters per rotation, by the time you have your own you very likely also have nearly all the arcanes. Since if you are farming them, you probably already do Experience in addition to the weekly Circuit tiers.

So it sounds like nothing is actually solved if you only need them once and after that there's no point in getting more? I should probably just let this guy explain things to you... 🤔

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Certain things are simply worth nothing

* to you

And you're not everyone.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But those games have had other systems aswell, just not the types of systems the players played the game for.

And so they died. Maybe if those other systems were more developed they wouldn't have? There are far more factors than just having an endgame when it comes to the long-term success of a game, but having bored players that have nothing to play the game for is a pretty direct route to failure.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And how is what WF does unsustainable? Or how is it unsustainable in the other games?

Already went over that:

On 2023-08-06 at 6:20 PM, PublikDomain said:

DE was so behind on Duviri they had to move two full frame releases forward to pad for time (Voruna was originally planned to be a Duviri frame). Railjack was delayed for a long time and still had a lackluster release. Nightwave was originally intended to be pumping out 6 week or whatever short stories, now they sprawl for months and we're on our 5th Intermission in a row. Of the 10 Nightwaves, only 3 have been unique stories like originally intended. Dog Days is late and many other seasonal events have been delayed this year as well. Someone here is living in a "dreamworld", and it definitely ain't me. Wake up and pay attention. DE can't keep up and hasn't ever been able to. You might be taking your time crawling through content, but it's getting consumed far faster than that by the rest of us.

@SneakyErvin touched on it as well:

On 2023-08-11 at 4:35 AM, SneakyErvin said:

They'd died or dropped to near death due to eventually getting abandoned or put into maintenence mode, resulting in no more updates and no more endgame.

None of this is sustainable. Sustainable would be adding one piece of content that lasts for years and years without requiring constant upkeep and expense. Alerts, for example, were very sustainable. They ran with virtually no changes or further input for over half a decade until they were largely replaced with a system that requires constant upkeep and development resources and, surprised Pikachu, immediately failed to keep up and was relegated to "maintenance mode" after just 3 unique seasons.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I said imagine if they added an update with only social stuff and labeled it endgame. As in only that and nothing else for the game.

Why would an update be like that? "Imagine if they did something in the dumbest way possible". Ok? It's a dumb scenario. Where has anyone suggested such a thing?

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You really need to read context mate. Or uhm maybe start reading in general.

And if you can understand that catering an entire update to only one preference would be a bad thing, why can't you also accept that catering an entire reward to only one preference would be a bad thing too? If you can understand that updates should be varied so everyone can receive something they enjoy, why can't you also accept that rewards should be varied so everyone can receive something they enjoy too?

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

@SneakyErvin touched on it as well:

I'll just answer this part since you seem to read what you want anyways and not what is actually written.

I never touched what you imply. Since you talk about updates getting delayed and abandoned in isolation, while I talk about games getting abandoned by not getting new content. And saying alerts were sustainable is just stupid, since all of what they provided were finite things for the most part. NW is just as, if not more sustainable since it is based on a currency throughout a season. So you dont need to monitor alerts. You're also not required to do sleeping pill low level content for it if you dont like.

And we already have what you demand from a game, content that lasts years and years on end. Not every single release needs to follow that idea. Like uhm today I just did fissures, which is something I did back in 2017 aswell. That is content that has lasted since I started playing and prior to that aswell. I also did it as SP, another content addition added that is used years after it released. Why the obsession with everything having to be infinitely playable? Clearly quests in the game is a horribly design direction in your mind aswell.

[PublikDomain]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Since you talk about updates getting delayed and abandoned in isolation, while I talk about games getting abandoned by not getting new content.

And I'm sure all the nameless games you're talking about had their individual updates abandoned in isolation, too, right up to the point the entire game became abandoned. It's the same thing.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And saying alerts were sustainable is just stupid, since all of what they provided were finite things for the most part.

Is this another semantics thing? Because a system running hands-free for, what, six years sounds pretty sustainable to me.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

NW is just as, if not more sustainable since it is based on a currency throughout a season. So you dont need to monitor alerts.

And yet it requires constant upkeep. "You don't have to monitor alerts"... so? Neither did DE. Alert machine went brrr for half a decade and didn't need to be constantly updated. Meanwhile DE has to write stories and build cutscenes and boss fights and create new enemies and weapons and invest their time and energy into building out new cosmetics and Augments and tasks every time they want to do another Nightwave. More sustainable? They've had to run "maintenance mode" Intermissions 7 times out of 10. They had to do that after the very first one it was so immediately unsustainable. Nightwave is the epitome of the "just make more content" mindset. It's been such an obvious, abject failure in that regard and anyone that thinks that DE can "just add more content" as a reason not to care about making things sustainable isn't paying any attention.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not every single release needs to follow that idea.

Why not? Is it better for content to be replayable, or for it to not be replayable? You're still playing Fissures, aren't you? Isn't it good that you can do that and still find them valuable? Or would you prefer for Fissures to be abandoned content that never gets played?

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Why the obsession with everything having to be infinitely playable?

And my question is why this obsession with not having things be infinitely playable? This weird defensive attitude arguing for not improving the game and making it more sustainable and more playable and more accessible for more people. Why are so many around here so obsessed with stagnation? That nothing should change unless they personally approve of it? With content dying off and being abandoned left and right, all while they lament other nameless games that have gone the same way, yet wanting nothing to be done to prevent the same here?

Especially when it's often as simple as letting you sell a useless duplicate item to an NPC or adding some different items to a shop. Not adding something as trivial as this...

... is the core of what you've been arguing with me about for 3 pages now. Why such stubborn resistance to this like it'll ruin the game? It's downright bizarre.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Clearly quests in the game is a horribly design direction in your mind aswell.

Not sure why you're bringing this up but yes, absolutely. Big cinematic quests are cool and all but they take months and years to develop yet only get played once or twice (if DE even bothers to make them replayable at all). It's incredibly wasteful.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And I'm sure all the nameless games you're talking about had their individual updates abandoned in isolation, too, right up to the point the entire game became abandoned. It's the same thing.

Is this another semantics thing? Because a system running hands-free for, what, six years sounds pretty sustainable to me.

And yet it requires constant upkeep. "You don't have to monitor alerts"... so? Neither did DE. Alert machine went brrr for half a decade and didn't need to be constantly updated. Meanwhile DE has to write stories and build cutscenes and boss fights and create new enemies and weapons and invest their time and energy into building out new cosmetics and Augments and tasks every time they want to do another Nightwave. More sustainable? They've had to run "maintenance mode" Intermissions 7 times out of 10. They had to do that after the very first one it was so immediately unsustainable. Nightwave is the epitome of the "just make more content" mindset. It's been such an obvious, abject failure in that regard and anyone that thinks that DE can "just add more content" as a reason not to care about making things sustainable isn't paying any attention.

Why not? Is it better for content to be replayable, or for it to not be replayable? You're still playing Fissures, aren't you? Isn't it good that you can do that and still find them valuable? Or would you prefer for Fissures to be abandoned content that never gets played?

And my question is why this obsession with not having things be infinitely playable? This weird defensive attitude arguing for not improving the game and making it more sustainable and more playable and more accessible for more people. Why are so many around here so obsessed with stagnation? That nothing should change unless they personally approve of it? With content dying off and being abandoned left and right, all while they lament other nameless games that have gone the same way, yet wanting nothing to be done to prevent the same here?

Especially when it's often as simple as letting you sell a useless duplicate item to an NPC or adding some different items to a shop. Not adding something as trivial as this...

... is the core of what you've been arguing with me about for 3 pages now. Why such stubborn resistance to this like it'll ruin the game? It's downright bizarre.

Not sure why you're bringing this up but yes, absolutely. Big cinematic quests are cool and all but they take months and years to develop yet only get played once or twice (if DE even bothers to make them replayable at all). It's incredibly wasteful.

I'm honestly not sure what you are even trying to say with your first part. I'm talking about you making an isolated example within a game. That is content that has gotten used as intended and then new content gets released instead of just adding more to the current mode. Not really sure what you even mean by "abandonded in isolation", it makes absolutely zero sense.

Nope, not semantics, clearly it wasnt very sustainable, hence why it got removed for something better. People doing the odd alert isnt really something sustainable for the whole system, since that is what happened after people obtained each of the one time things and nitain. With NW I engage for atleast 30 ranks whenever it is refreshed. Even if that gets delayed I still use NW several times more than I did alerts.

How poor is your comprehension? We the players had to monitor alerts in order to know when something useful was up or not, to the point people made use of alert tracking through twitter etc. With NW I log on at the update, check the tiers and then I check acts once per week and do them as needed. When that is done I dont have to put another thought on the system until the next monday comes around, which I repeat until I have what I want and need from the season.

Read again what was said. Not all content needs to have replay value. Too many things is just bloat. We already have several different methods to interact with the star chart and the work put into those nodes and missions. We have Normal, SP, fissures and SP fissures at the "base" then we have Siphon, Flood and Nightmare missions, ontop of that we have Liches/Sister, Arbitration and Invasions. And with those it is successful, since all of them provide something unique tied to the mode. With content where similar things have been done, like Railjack getting Void Storms, the mode was abandoned fast even though it has evergreen rewards tied to it, since farming Traces and cracking relics in Void Storms is not efficient. The materials gained in RJ are also far too limited in use, much like Duviri materials. So the same outcome would likely come from Circuit getting a pointless tier reward added.

But it isnt improving the game. It just adds bloat and solves nothing. Again I'm not against adding rewards, I'm against adding something completely pointless that would change nothing. Add something that actually makes it worth the time doing the tiers after having obtained the adapters or as a choice instead of the adapters. Practically anything but endo, credits or clamps would do. Specific relics, a huge chunk of kuva, rivens, forma, taters, other adapters, and hey, lets throw your fetish clamps on the list aswell along with huge chunks of endo and credits for people that want that. Since it is tied to T5 and T10 it should be without RNG unlike the other tiers.

[Circle_of_Psi]

On 2023-04-29 at 8:57 PM, Kaiga said:

EDIT 7/27: because the thread merge is used as a tool to consolidate negative feedback around here:

Now the most recent wave of incarnons are purchasable with platinum, to skip the gate entirely. Looks like we were right in this being a thing that's staying.

I can't tell, is this a good thing or not?

[PublikDomain]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope, not semantics, clearly it wasnt very sustainable, hence why it got removed for something better. People doing the odd alert isnt really something sustainable for the whole system, since that is what happened after people obtained each of the one time things and nitain. With NW I engage for atleast 30 ranks whenever it is refreshed. Even if that gets delayed I still use NW several times more than I did alerts.

I think you're confusing the sustainable development practices I've been talking about with something else. Just so you understand that, here: you told me that the way you think GaaS games stay afloat is...

On 2023-08-05 at 6:59 AM, SneakyErvin said:

By adding new content on a constant basis.

But adding new content on a constant basis is not sustainable since it requires constant input, as seen by so many examples including Nightwave's inability to keep up with the content demand, large delayed content releases like Duviri, small delayed seasonal events like Dog Days, etc. It's also not the only way that GaaS games stay afloat, it's just one part. The other big part is retention, typically by providing lots of different "personal endgame goals" as you call it.

That's not to say that Nightwave is entirely bad, and I've never said that. It's actually a pretty good system when it comes to its ability to create "personal endgame goals", and it's a fantastic example of a token shop with evergreens that lets everyone pick the rewards they personally find valuable. Y'know, sorta like what I'm saying in regards to the Circuit? So in that regards, yes, Alerts were absolutely replaced with a "better" system, and DE outlined 4 reasons why. Note the lack of mention about sustainability? Because they expected they could keep up with that. Spoiler: they could not.

Quote

Nora’s Mix Vol. 1 will be similar to Nora’s Choice in regards to scope. For us, Nightwave is the best way to present weekly goals for Tenno to complete. Currently, our development efforts are better focused on the Post-New War content we’re all eagerly waiting for!
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1301281-nora’s-choice-end-date-the-future-of-nightwave/

 

So it's a downright terrible system when it comes to sustainability, and is a fantastic example of why floating a game on "adding new content on a constant basis" alone is such a flawed idea.

Hopefully this clears up your confusion.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not all content needs to have replay value.

But it's better when it does. If you think having some additional rewards to choose from or reasons to play a piece of content is "bloat", then you can simply choose not to participate. Go be efficient somewhere else, no one is stopping you. No need to get in the way of other people replaying content. 🙄

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It just adds bloat and solves nothing.

No, it solves something you don't care about. In your mind it might be solving "nothing", but that's just you and you're not everyone. I think it solves quite an important issue looming very closely on the horizon.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Specific relics, a huge chunk of kuva, rivens, forma, taters, other adapters, and hey, lets throw your fetish clamps on the list aswell along with huge chunks of endo and credits for people that want that. Since it is tied to T5 and T10 it should be without RNG unlike the other tiers.

Which you can buy with Clamps... Other than different Adapters (easily solved by just making them generic), Acrithis sells all of these things for Clamps... They achieve literally what you're saying here? Have you been confusing Clamps with Rune Marrow or something?

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

But adding new content on a constant basis is not sustainable since it requires constant input, as seen by so many examples including Nightwave's inability to keep up with the content demand

But Nightwave is just a system, not a content release as such. Nightwave just brings replay value to old content by having us revisit it. New content means something new to see and experience, bringing back old players and attracting new ones. While early NWs had some of that it was more an overarching system applied to old content releases. This is also about alerts versus NW and alerts had less reasons for us to go back. NW clearly improved that by getting everyone something to engage with for atleast 30 ranks, while alerts died quickly and served no real need. I was done with alerts in less than a year, after that you more or less just hoped you wouldnt miss too many tater or forma alerts as you were sleeping, at work/school or doing something else important IRL. I'm also not sure what content demand NW is supposed to keep up with according to you.

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

like what I'm saying in regards to the Circuit?

I'll get back to this later together with another segment you wrote.

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

So it's a downright terrible system when it comes to sustainability,

I dont see how that is the case when it clearly shows they can do whatever with it so it doesnt impact other development while still giving us weekly goals. I mean you even managed to quote DE and not see that very clear part of their reasoning.

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

But it's better when it does. If you think having some additional rewards to choose from or reasons to play a piece of content is "bloat", then you can simply choose not to participate. Go be efficient somewhere else, no one is stopping you. No need to get in the way of other people replaying content. 🙄

If it has worthwhile rewards yes. It is bloat when you add pointless things that may aswell not be there. Why add something that might attract a few when you can add something that would attract far more players to that specific mode?

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

No, it solves something you don't care about. In your mind it might be solving "nothing", but that's just you and you're not everyone. I think it solves quite an important issue looming very closely on the horizon.

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Which you can buy with Clamps... Other than different Adapters (easily solved by just making them generic), Acrithis sells all of these things for Clamps... They achieve literally what you're saying here? Have you been confusing Clamps with Rune Marrow or something?

But it solves nothing of that which you've tried to push throughout this thread while also denying that you are pushing it. Look back up at the part I bolded from you. Again you are back to mentioning Circuit specifically. You clearly want to give reasons to play Circuit and give it longevity and replay value. Yet for some reason you also denied that to further push the stupid clamp reward. Like i've said, adding clamps to Circuit will be like Void Storms all over again when it comes to using them instead of fissures. It just did nothing to actually attract players beyond getting the 1-time rewards. And here with clamps or adapter turn ins you'll end up with the same, since nothing unique is tied to Circuit at that point to give a reason to play it for the rewards that are placed on the vendor. Adding things to the tier choices however will give incentive to play Circuit specifically, since you get something from it you cannot get elsewhere.

If there was a weekly cap on say clamps from experience/story and circuit added a way to obtain more above that cap it would be one thing, but right now it would just be clamps that have no cap and come from other places just the same. It's like if they'd add so you can cap garrison currency by running another archon hunt each week where each stage rewards 35 tokens. Most would likely never do Kahl again since there would be no unique rewards tied to it.

So the question is, do you want Circuit to actually be played again or do you simply want to just add some random reward for the sake of adding rewards? For me personally, I'll still do Circuit from time to time, atleast tier 1-4 incase a forma, warframe adapter, tater or something else worthwhile ends up at one of those tiers. I will however not play beyond that tier since the time investment at that point just isnt worth it.

[Vaml77]

The immediate culture of some players reveals that they suffer from anxiety. Anxiety is also a lack of focus.

[FiveN9ne]

The only way i'd keep playing circuit is if they added an Archon shard at tier 5 and a Tauforged at tier 10.

[PublikDomain]

Again, you're confusing sustainable development practices with something else.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm also not sure what content demand NW is supposed to keep up with according to you.

You know Wolf of Saturn Six? How it has the big relay boss fight? Or Emissary, how it has the lantern boss fight? Or Glassmaker, which has all the detective scenes to wander around in and a boss fight? And how they all have the diorama cutscenes and stories? And they all came with a full track of cosmetics? And new enemies, and weapons?  Where do you think all of that stuff comes from? The models, textures, maps, enemies, voice-overs, and new mechanics? It doesn't just poof out of the aether and suddenly exist. It has to be made. Content has to be created. And why do you think DE isn't making as much of that content anymore? Can't they just "[add] new content on a regular basis" like you suggest? Why do you think that they're not doing that, and are instead making (or upcycling) only a few new cosmetics and a couple of augments every 4-6 months and recycling the rest? Because...

Quote

Currently, [their] development efforts are better focused on the [next new] content we’re all eagerly waiting for!

They don't have the effort to spare making this content. They've said that out loud. They cannot keep up with that content demand. Creative demand. Content requirement. Creative budget. Man-hours. Whatever you want to call it. They say that out loud all the time. A system that needs constant development time to constantly add more models, textures, enemies, voice-overs, and new mechanics is not sustainable. And so now we instead get the "maintenance mode" version without all the "new content on a constant basis" you suggest.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If it has worthwhile rewards yes. It is bloat when you add pointless things that may aswell not be there. Why add something that might attract a few when you can add something that would attract far more players to that specific mode?

And so we circle back to "worthwhile for who". You can keep saying the reward needs to be "worthwhile" and not "pointless", but you're not the one that gets to decide what rewards are worthwhile or pointless for other people. Everyone should be able to decide that for themselves. And the only way to ensure that everyone can decide for themselves is to let everyone pick their own rewards. And whatever "something that would attract far more players" you can come up, whether it's Kuva or Tau Shards or the Arcanes you value, all of them can be distributed using the very same token shop using the very same tokens that already exist.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Again you are back to mentioning Circuit specifically. You clearly want to give reasons to play Circuit and give it longevity and replay value.

And adding value to the two dead, useless rewards at tiers 5 and 10 will clearly help achieve that. Leaving those two tiers dead and useless will clearly not.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yet for some reason you also denied that to further push the stupid clamp reward.

Quote me, then. Where have I denied wanting to give the Circuit more longevity and replay value? I've certainly denied this weird insistence that the only way to do that is to give it unique rewards you can't get anywhere else, and I've definitely denied this goofy idea "muh efficiency" idea, but I've explained to you why multiple times. The "stupid clamp reward" you keep poo-pooing on is the way to give the Circuit more longevity and replay value.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So the question is, do you want Circuit to actually be played again or do you simply want to just add some random reward for the sake of adding rewards?

That's the same thing. Improving rewards adds a reason to play it again. I'm just not interested in forcing participation with unique rewards or a token caps like a little tyrant.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Again, you're confusing sustainable development practices with something else.

And where are your numbers regarding it not being sustainable development practices? Do you have a list of earnings tied to different development approaches from different games to prove these claims? I'd say it is quite sustainable otherwise they wouldnt do it.

18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

You know Wolf of Saturn Six? How it has the big relay boss fight? Or Emissary, how it has the lantern boss fight? Or Glassmaker, which has all the detective scenes to wander around in and a boss fight? And how they all have the diorama cutscenes and stories? And they all came with a full track of cosmetics? And new enemies, and weapons?  Where do you think all of that stuff comes from? The models, textures, maps, enemies, voice-overs, and new mechanics? It doesn't just poof out of the aether and suddenly exist. It has to be made. Content has to be created. And why do you think DE isn't making as much of that content anymore? Can't they just "[add] new content on a regular basis" like you suggest? Why do you think that they're not doing that, and are instead making (or upcycling) only a few new cosmetics and a couple of augments every 4-6 months and recycling the rest? Because...

Ah so because one system wasnt sustainable in its approach it means no system is sustainable unless it has infinite replay value to you? NW is still sustainable though, they just cut parts from it that took too much time and resources. Things that have absolutely zero impact on NW itself and the purpose of the mode, which was to replace alerts, which it still does perfectly fine without story fluff. And the reason it took too much time and resources was because they worked on other more persistant additions to the game aswell, development that had to take a backseat in order to also make NW stories. NW doesnt have to be more than it is right now. It is also funny you are up in arms over this when you also admited that you think quests are a waste of time more or less, which in essence NW stories are. NW is currently sustainable as it is.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

They don't have the effort to spare making this content. They've said that out loud. They cannot keep up with that content demand. Creative demand. Content requirement. Creative budget. Man-hours. Whatever you want to call it. They say that out loud all the time. A system that needs constant development time to constantly add more models, textures, enemies, voice-overs, and new mechanics is not sustainable. And so now we instead get the "maintenance mode" version without all the "new content on a constant basis" you suggest.

That is normal for gaas games though due to veterans. I also get this sense you have even less experience with gaas games and MMOs than I thought due to how you use "maintenance mode". We are getting content on a constant basis. We are afterall just 3 months after a major release that have had 2 smaller updates done to it after that. And we are currently waiting for news on the next big upcoming feature aswell as some smaller ones either prior to or post that release. That is a pretty normal cycle, going hand in hand with seasons for instance in other games while being more of a hybrid between seasonal updates and free expansions. That is what I refer to as "on a constant basis" since that is normal for these games.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And so we circle back to "worthwhile for who". You can keep saying the reward needs to be "worthwhile" and not "pointless", but you're not the one that gets to decide what rewards are worthwhile or pointless for other people. Everyone should be able to decide that for themselves. And the only way to ensure that everyone can decide for themselves is to let everyone pick their own rewards. And whatever "something that would attract far more players" you can come up, whether it's Kuva or Tau Shards or the Arcanes you value, all of them can be distributed using the very same token shop using the very same tokens that already exist.

Which was also my example, picking what people want to get as tier rewards. And again, no they cant be distributed through the shop to give the same purpose, which is to make the specific mode played.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Quote me, then. Where have I denied wanting to give the Circuit more longevity and replay value? I've certainly denied this weird insistence that the only way to do that is to give it unique rewards you can't get anywhere else, and I've definitely denied this goofy idea "muh efficiency" idea, but I've explained to you why multiple times. The "stupid clamp reward" you keep poo-pooing on is the way to give the Circuit more longevity and replay value.

On 2023-08-11 at 7:38 PM, PublikDomain said:

The point of adding evergreens (and other "personal endgame goals") is to incentivize players to play the game, not specifically the Circuit.

So you dont want rewards specifically for Circuit but for the game, while you've also been pushing the Circuit will get abandoned narative. A narative that wont get any less real by just offering clamps from the tiers. My suggestion effectively solves both those things, since you'd add something unique to circuit that people would want more off per week, so they'd play the game more to get those things while doing so inside the circuit, giving it more playtime aswell. Because you seem to not want individual modes to die, considering how you've reasoned regarding things overall.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

That's the same thing. Improving rewards adds a reason to play it again. I'm just not interested in forcing participation with unique rewards or a token caps like a little tyrant.

But you arent improving the rewards because there is no real reason to play the mode for those specific rewards. Like I said earlier, the approach has already failed in content like void storms. Why do you think this mode would have a different outcome? The point of improving something is in order to get as many as possible to play it. My suggestion solves that since it provides something for nearly everyone through that mode. Helping it since it is the mode that actually needs the help. Adding clamps to it while increasing the vendor wouldnt help Circuit much. It would give more incentive to Duviri overall, which isnt really needed since the vendor already gives reason enough to run a few wyrms per week. And for people that are already done with everything Duviri related it would be no different, since many have weeks upon weeks upon weeks worth of clamps already.

I'm at 900 something clamps at the moment, so I'm looking at uhm 15 weeks (depending on which weekly awards show up) or something of not touching anything Duviri related but Circuit for T5 weapons and some T10 for the latest batch.

[PublikDomain]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And where are your numbers regarding it not being sustainable development practices? Do you have a list of earnings tied to different development approaches from different games to prove these claims? I'd say it is quite sustainable otherwise they wouldnt do it.

"Otherwise they wouldn't do it"....? Uh, they stopped doing it. It's been 5 Intermissions in a row. It's been nothing but Intermissions since Glassmaker, the last unique Nightwave which ended two years ago.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

NW is still sustainable though, they just cut parts from it that took too much time and resources.

Right... They cut off the unsustainable parts. The parts "that took too much time and resources". The parts that required adding a bunch of "new content on a regular basis". Because "adding new content on a regular basis" to every single system and mechanic in the game to keep it relevant isn't sustainable. Designing systems that can run on their own without a constant injection of new content is.

I'd reply to some of the other things you bring up, but instead of just repeating myself maybe we could move on since it seems like we're in agreement that replacing the rewards in some way would be a good thing:

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which was also my example, picking what people want to get as tier rewards.

So what's left is implementation. It sounds like we agree that there should be alternate rewards for Tier 5/10, so how should those rewards be delivered? I've been suggesting using the existing method to pick rewards we already have: Acrithis' token shop. It's already there, it's already been developed, just sell Clamps for Adapters and add some more offerings and you're done. You seem to be suggesting a brand new reward selection system that's intentionally kept as separate from that shop as possible in order to push more people into the Circuit specifically:

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And again, no they cant be distributed through the shop to give the same purpose, which is to make the specific mode played.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But you arent improving the rewards because there is no real reason to play the mode for those specific rewards.

It's this "specific modes/specific rewards" thing I'm talking about. Delivering alternate Circuit rewards using Acrithis is bad according to you because it doesn't "give the same purpose", but the "purpose" you're stuck on is unnecessary. I don't care about it because it doesn't matter. That's probably why you seem confused at this supposed contradiction you think I'm making:

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So you dont want rewards specifically for Circuit but for the game, while you've also been pushing the Circuit will get abandoned narative. A narative that wont get any less real by just offering clamps from the tiers.

But there is no contradiction, you've just tacked on a qualifier and moved the goalposts in order to make it contradictory. Making the Circuit more rewarding by replacing unusable rewards with usable ones is good, as we seem to agree on, but the difference is I don't care if those rewards can be earned by playing the Experience too because it doesn't matter. If anything it's even better, because someone that likes the Experience more than the Circuit could choose to play that instead. Everything I've been saying about endgame or your "personal endgame goals" is about how those goals exists for retention: to keep people playing the game in any way period. It doesn't matter where it is, as long as someone is playing. Like I've already explained to you:

On 2023-08-15 at 10:36 AM, PublikDomain said:

I'm just not interested in forcing participation with unique rewards or a token caps like a little tyrant.

If you want to play the Experience instead then have at it. Go get another 900 Clamps, I do not care. That's not a problem, you're just making it into one while sabotaging yourself in the process by insisting that you continue to have nothing to spend them on. So instead of reinventing the wheel just to force people into the Circuit and solve this problem that doesn't exist, I think it'd be a lot better if the existing systems were just expanded in a way that lets people choose for themselves what they'd prefer to play. Then you could play the Experience and spend your 900 Clamps, and I could play the Circuit and have a reward for Tier 5/10. We could each play the content we choose for ourselves.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

It's this "specific modes/specific rewards" thing I'm talking about. Delivering alternate Circuit rewards using Acrithis is bad according to you because it doesn't "give the same purpose", but the "purpose" you're stuck on is unnecessary. I don't care about it because it doesn't matter. That's probably why you seem confused at this supposed contradiction you think I'm making:

No it isnt unnecessary. A reward addition should be as wide as possible if they are to implement it so it has a chance to attract everyone as you yourself said earlier. Clamps or just turning in dupes for clamps clearly wont result in that. You and I are proof of that since one of us is over the top happy about some clamps while the other sees it as 100% pointless. Adding rewards of our choice from the tiers would attract both of us i.e everyone in this case.

Rewards of our choice would be the best solution since it is the widest way to reach as many as possible of the users.

And you as someone who has brought up sustainablility must understand that adding something so generic as you suggest will not sustain the game mode itself. And The rest of Duviri doesnt need more help to sustain it, since the vendor does that well enough already. This is what you said earlier aswell.

On 2023-08-03 at 7:27 PM, PublikDomain said:

Having more reasons to do the Circuit (or Kahl or Archons or Arbitrations or Eidolons or any other activity) is a good thing.

But clearly that doesnt apply to my idea that would give more reasons to do Circuit than your own. You also said that more is better than less, while also specifically pointing out "more reasons to replay that content". And I dont know about you, clamps alone tied to a vendor clearly means less reasons to "replay that content" in comparison to adding several different tier rewards to pick from that are unobtainable through the other "that content" which is already self sustaining. Since Experience isnt the same content as Circuit and you now say it doesnt matter which of the two are played I'm not sure why you'd specify "replay that content" earlier.

[PublikDomain]

17 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

A reward addition should be as wide as possible if they are to implement it so it has a chance to attract everyone as you yourself said earlier. Clamps or just turning in dupes for clamps clearly wont result in that. You and I are proof of that since one of us is over the top happy about some clamps while the other sees it as 100% pointless. Adding rewards of our choice from the tiers would attract both of us i.e everyone in this case.

And Clamps can be used to buy the rewards of our choice. If you think Clamps are "pointless", then why are you so against giving them a point?

17 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

This is what you said earlier aswell.

On 2023-08-03 at 10:27 AM, PublikDomain said:

Having more reasons to do the Circuit (or Kahl or Archons or Arbitrations or Eidolons or any other activity) is a good thing.

But clearly that doesnt apply to my idea that would give more reasons to do Circuit than your own. You also said that more is better than less, while also specifically pointing out "more reasons to replay that content". And I dont know about you, clamps alone tied to a vendor clearly means less reasons to "replay that content" in comparison to adding several different tier rewards to pick from that are unobtainable through the other "that content" which is already self sustaining.

Of course it applies. But you're suggesting that DE reinvent the wheel instead of using what has already been developed, and the only reason you've provided for why they should go through that extra effort is for the sole purpose of excluding people who would prefer to play the Experience. Are those players not included in everyone? Is it really such a problem if those users are reached too?

On the other hand I don't care if people who prefer the Experience are benefited too, because the Experience is included in that "or any other activity" catch-all in the quote you've selected. If it makes the Circuit more desirable for people who prefer the Circuit, and the Experience more desirable for people who like the Experience, and makes your 900 Clamps less pointless, then great! I don't need some unobtainable item those dirty Experience players aren't allowed to touch just to feel rewarded for my time. Rewards aren't cheapened just because someone else can get them too.

[Hexerin]

On 2023-08-13 at 9:52 AM, PublikDomain said:

Not sure why you're bringing this up but yes, absolutely. Big cinematic quests are cool and all but they take months and years to develop yet only get played once or twice (if DE even bothers to make them replayable at all). It's incredibly wasteful.

Speak for yourself, bucko. Lore is one of the most attractive features of any game for me. It takes an exceptionally well crafted gameplay loop to get my attention if you don't have interesting lore attached to your game. Warframe would 100% be a game I would've tossed in the trash if it wasn't for the lore carrying the entirely mid gameplay loop.

The lack of lore a decade ago is literally why I ended up dropping the game after a couple weeks, only returning recently.

[SneakyErvin]

6 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And Clamps can be used to buy the rewards of our choice. If you think Clamps are "pointless", then why are you so against giving them a point?

Of course it applies. But you're suggesting that DE reinvent the wheel instead of using what has already been developed, and the only reason you've provided for why they should go through that extra effort is for the sole purpose of excluding people who would prefer to play the Experience. Are those players not included in everyone? Is it really such a problem if those users are reached too?

On the other hand I don't care if people who prefer the Experience are benefited too, because the Experience is included in that "or any other activity" catch-all in the quote you've selected. If it makes the Circuit more desirable for people who prefer the Circuit, and the Experience more desirable for people who like the Experience, and makes your 900 Clamps less pointless, then great! I don't need some unobtainable item those dirty Experience players aren't allowed to touch just to feel rewarded for my time. Rewards aren't cheapened just because someone else can get them too.

Because they are already obtainable from a different mode. So adding them to Circuit would not make them appealing to everyone, so it wouldnt be an improvement for everyone.

They dont have to reinvent the wheel. Instead of picking our tier reward they can just add another specific token to T5 and T10 and then use the vendor at that point with a page dedicated to those tokens. Each items only being purchasable once per week, so you can pick two out of X items if you do both T5 and T10. The idea is to improve a mode that could use the help, Experience is already sustained by weekly offerings and repeatable purchases represented across 3 different categories.

And it isnt about just doing it more desirble for people that prefer the mode. It is about making it more appealing for those that do not really like it aswell i.e trying to attract everyone. Like you said before, more is better than less, which applies to attracting as many players as possible to engage with a mode aswell as having as many rewards as possible for there to be something for each player that engages with it.

Again Circuit is what needs help, not Duviri overall. So clamps would in the end be detrimental to Circuit because it would not solve the actual problem rooted in the Circuit reward setup. Trying to attract people to actually play it is what is needed. Right now you sound more like you just want more loot. Maybe you are sitting on piles of clamps and just use this as an excuse to demand more loot to buy?

[PublikDomain]

10 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Speak for yourself, bucko. Lore is one of the most attractive features of any game for me. It takes an exceptionally well crafted gameplay loop to get my attention if you don't have interesting lore attached to your game. Warframe would 100% be a game I would've tossed in the trash if it wasn't for the lore carrying the entirely mid gameplay loop.

The lack of lore a decade ago is literally why I ended up dropping the game after a couple weeks, only returning recently.

Are big cinematic quests the only way to deliver lore? There's far more lore in the Fragments and Codex entries and environmental storytelling and old events and small quests than there is in the small handful of big main quests most people play once and never touch again. Like I said, big quests are cool. They're neat. I really enjoy them. But they're also expensive and take a long time to produce for the few hours of gameplay they actually provide. Lore can and has been delivered in much simpler and cost-effective ways throughout the game's history.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Because they are already obtainable from a different mode. So adding them to Circuit would not make them appealing to everyone, so it wouldnt be an improvement for everyone.

Why does a reward being obtainable from a different mode make it not appealing? Are things like Forma and Kuva and potatoes and unlockers and Rivens not appealing because they're obtainable from different modes?

I'm also wondering what otherwise-unobtainable rewards you think should be offered instead, since previously you suggested Duviri and Eidolon Arcanes:

On 2023-08-05 at 6:59 AM, SneakyErvin said:

An Arcane of our choice, cannot pick the same for both the tiers. Let the player pick from all Eidolon and Duviri uncommons and rares.

Yet are these not also already available in different modes? Eidolon Arcanes are already available from Eidolon Hunts and are available from the regular Circuit (minus Energize/Barrier/Grace), and Duviri Arcanes are all already available through Acrithis and through the bonus SP Experience portals and through the SP Circuit main track. Why is it that you can suggest adding rewards already obtainable from a different mode but I can't? Or have you changed your mind again and are suggesting something different now?

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They dont have to reinvent the wheel. Instead of picking our tier reward they can just add another specific token to T5 and T10 and then use the vendor at that point with a page dedicated to those tokens. Each items only being purchasable once per week, so you can pick two out of X items if you do both T5 and T10. The idea is to improve a mode that could use the help, Experience is already sustained by weekly offerings and repeatable purchases represented across 3 different categories.

So now you're saying the exact same thing I am in regards to a token shop, except you think it'd be better to use a brand new token and a brand new shop - for the sole reason of spiting the Experience. I don't see how spiting the Experience is very "appealing to everyone".

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And it isnt about just doing it more desirble for people that prefer the mode. It is about making it more appealing for those that do not really like it aswell i.e trying to attract everyone.

Oh I don't agree with that at all. If someone doesn't like the Circuit, I don't think they should be forced into it. There are many reasons to not like it beyond just rewards, and pushing someone in when they don't like the gear RNG or the gameplay or the difficulty is just mean. Why would it be good to make someone miserable playing content they don't like every week for perpetuity? I'm much more interested in benefiting the people who already enjoy or are open to playing it, and letting those that don't find some other activity (like the Experience) that they might enjoy more instead.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Again Circuit is what needs help, not Duviri overall.

And if an improvement to the Circuit improves Duviri overall, it's still an improvement to the Circuit. Improving something is not contingent on nothing else being improved at the same time. If both are improved, great.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Right now you sound more like you just want more loot. Maybe you are sitting on piles of clamps and just use this as an excuse to demand more loot to buy?

Says the guy bragging about his muh 900 Clamps and demanding unique loot that no one else is allowed to get. 🙄

[Amolistic.]

Fear of missing out is misused here.

It is not like the incarnon adapters will suddenly be sunsetted if you dont grind it out quick. Yes you cant get them all immediately, which is not unexpected, it's a live service, the game always wants you to come back, but most importantly, not like you wouldn't be able to grind them out after the rotation.

Warframe itself is a very low FOMO game in a market where FOMO is massively abused. Not by defending, but the only FOMO in warframe I can probably think of are just prime resurgence and possibly Nora which either of them have very long lasting period that should majority of the players get the ultimate reward they want.

Im kinda grateful tbh, especially for students like me who have no much time to spare.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 hour ago, Amolistic. said:

Fear of missing out is misused here.

It is not like the incarnon adapters will suddenly be sunsetted if you dont grind it out quick. Yes you cant get them all immediately, which is not unexpected, it's a live service, the game always wants you to come back, but most importantly, not like you wouldn't be able to grind them out after the rotation.

Warframe itself is a very low FOMO game in a market where FOMO is massively abused. Not by defending, but the only FOMO in warframe I can probably think of are just prime resurgence and possibly Nora which either of them have very long lasting period that should majority of the players get the ultimate reward they want.

Im kinda grateful tbh, especially for students like me who have no much time to spare.

It used to be low fomo but that has changed for the worse since veilbreaker. While I agree you can eventually get the incarnons as they will never go away, waiting almost 2 months now is extremely anti player and completely unnecessary. It is exactly not the way to gain player retention and involvement and in fact has not worked for DE. I am talking in circles though and this has already been said. Publik and Ervin, you two will never see eye to eye lol.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Publik and Ervin, you two will never see eye to eye lol.

Yeah, I'm about done. Isn't the first time I've had this kind of chat with him.