One Tenno VS One Earth Nation During The 20th Century

[SneakyErvin]

28 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Time to pull out by scalpel.

Insertion tactics depend on stealth -_- , otherwise its an invasion. This is also where you are contradicting yourself we are not talking about conventional tools as warframes are not conventional by any sense of the word . We will have to draw a line as to what is "gameplay limitation and what is possible in universe limitation" anything either of us debates before then is only conjecture between two people about their opinions (fun as it may be).

The use of choppers and boats is a good example though , they have certain capacity , they can carry payloads and personnel, have a specific range up to which they can travel before refueling and they need a proper place to be at not just anywhere will do unless you want to risk potential damage either by collision or by arms fire.

Also What is a bomb? Anything that is designed to explode and cause damage in its immediate vicinity. Anything can be a bomb if you have the resoucres , and clearly you are of the opinion that the tenno would have the resources, right? cant run something as large as the orbiter without a few things that can go boom. Cant have all those shiny lights running without something that makes a spark.

The landing craft is more than capable of dropping a bomb conventional or otherwise.

Thats like your opinion man , the only active instance we have of cloaking is in railjacks , and that is shortlived and the enemy becomes aware of you if you start shooting them. And remember the part about drawing the line between gameplay and in universe limitation? here's another instance of the same. Not to mention the Orbiter is capable of interplanatery traversal because of solar rails , rails which don't exist in this day and age , so yes , you may actually get screwed cause you cant actually go anywhere without it. One of the reasons why i think it would not go as you think.

The void is unexplained and infinite , it is whatever you expect/dont expect it to be. You are also assuming the heart comes and the void can manifest before it was discovered, whats the basis of this assumption? And what makes you think the other tenno would allow you to take the one thing that gives them their power to be taken from them?

Extractors ? the drones you send to the planets? assuming they give back more than they themselves cost to upkeep? possibly , but they also have the potential to be damaged and destroyed , and i don't know if you can buy more BP from the market of the past :P, it is definitely possible to replenish part of the stock and manufacture some of it in the foundry , but if you always run the risk of losing your extractors thats a difficult position to maintain.

Conventional ammo? You could probably make , but what about non conventional ones? what about things that need resources from jupiter? no solar rails remember? no nitain , no argon crystals. no cryotic , no weird mushroom things either. again you seem to underestimate how easy it is to exploit or recycle natural resources without a steady supply of raw material.

And that was the point i was making , you will eventually run out or spares , resources and energy, the more you exert energy the faster you will drain your limited resources with very limited means to replensih it The only way you could possibly survive is by forming a partnership with those that might be able to .

What do you mean by the worst threat and only important threat? every threat is a treat , S#&$ can go either way in a conflict.

Ever hear of David and Goliath? , goliath may be a giant , but there are many many many davids and they just need to get lucky once with their slingshot.

And speed bumps can cause quite some problems over tie if you dont watch out for them. Warframes are not invincible despite being very resilient. and a string enough force could take them down , that why they work overtly , not in direct conflict.

Warframes do not repair though void power alone the operators do , the helminth room takes care of the "maintenance" of the frames and biological functions. It just never comes up cause it is not relevant to gameplay , but there is a very clear dialogue about it and the helminth does need to be fed to be functional. Again doesnt come up much in game but is absolutely there in universe. And , we dont know how well the void power will function if at all.

Which leads me to another very obvious issue which i forgot to highlight. Where will you get energy (or health ) orbs? for many of the frames to function it is necessary , and last time i checked you dont get energy orbs by slicing open people. So yes , there is absolutely a way to run out of resources for your frame to function.

Thats not a base , thats a camp. Whether or not it can be found is subject to the tenacity of the ones looking for it over time it will be found if you keep heading for it and all the air traffic control says that they are seeing anomalous movements in the region. Another point of in gameplay vs in universe possibility.

Good thing you arent invading during 40K i guess :P cause you wouldnt be lasting long.

Teleport over short distances? assuming you plan to use someone like nova/ash/loki for such things , do note that you cant switch between frames as you cant teleport back to command and again , no idea how you will gain energy to do so or how you plan to cross continents as warframes cant swim :P

Arch wings are absolutely going to be picked up on a radar and shot down as soon as possible, you cant even fly on the plains of eidolon without being shot down every few seconds forget about traversing large distances with A2A or S2A missiles following you everywhere.,

The things we dont actually make use of in the game should not be part of what we'd use in a what if scenario. So no home made bombs and so on.

We wouldnt need interplanetary traversal. You should look up where certain things come from. Yes we find fancy argon crystals in the void for instance, but argon is already an element on earth. A gas for that matter, which can in reality be harvested in such a case. And regarding out extractors, they seem to simply need to refuel or repower on their own, solar energy perhaps? Because we dont need to pay any upkeep for them. So there you'd have access to the materials we need overall. And Ordis will help us scan it potentially, since how else do we know where to send them in the origin system? And since we have access to the helminth and the foundry, we'd likely solve resource needs for ammo just as the tenno solved resource needs to build their own frames without access to orokin materials. So at worst we'd really run around with something similar to baseline items versus primes. Or we'd be stuck with battery weapons in the end.

And what I mean with only the worst case matters? If the worst case can be handled and the lesser threats can aswell, since they would pose no threat if the worst one doesnt. Hence why I made the army and cop examples.

And Warframes do repair through the void, the operator allows them too, either through being in their presence with certain configurations or by using repairing or healing abilities innate to the frame. Or they simply sustain themselves overtime passively like Nidus or Citrine, with what is considered Healing Factor in Marvel. I mean we can repair our frames on the field as much as we like to with the operator, which only drains void energy from the operator. Just as the relation between the two can cause harm to the frame through transference static when the operator isnt careful. All those things are canon.

And healing orbs is just a fancy game mechanic, nothing else. Likely based on something the nano-tech in the frame consumes or makes use of. Same with energy orbs.

Base or camp, semantics at best, since the orbiter is what we need as a base since it has everything. And why would we travel within the scope of a radar, at hights were it can spot us? Did our tenno suddenly turn retard for going back in time? Not all time travelers are Bill & Ted. 

And no with teleport I mean any frame using any archwing. Which in reality can travel great distances in a blink but is limited to shorter bursts in atmosphere due to map size limitations. And moving below radar is yet again a very real things. So we'd need a dumb as a door knob tenno for them to get caught or spotted. And what do you do in the open worlds when things start shooting at your Archwing? You blow it up and blink away and go about your business as usual.

18 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Well... It does. No one does the Jordans Boss fight without skipping the cutscenes anymore to see it so I will say this: the Landing Craft can turn invisible as well.

Ah true, forgot about that!

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The things we dont actually make use of in the game should not be part of what we'd use in a what if scenario. So no home made bombs and so on.

I will hold you to this , cause this statement invalidates the ability of a lot of things which you describe.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

We wouldnt need interplanetary traversal. You should look up where certain things come from. Yes we find fancy argon crystals in the void for instance, but argon is already an element on earth. A gas for that matter, which can in reality be harvested in such a case. And regarding out extractors, they seem to simply need to refuel or repower on their own, solar energy perhaps? Because we dont need to pay any upkeep for them. So there you'd have access to the materials we need overall. And Ordis will help us scan it potentially, since how else do we know where to send them in the origin system? And since we have access to the helminth and the foundry, we'd likely solve resource needs for ammo just as the tenno solved resource needs to build their own frames without access to orokin materials. So at worst we'd really run around with something similar to baseline items versus primes. Or we'd be stuck with battery weapons in the end.

Didn't you say we cant make anything you cant already make in game? so if you cant make bombs you cant make argon crystals either (not that it makes sense in the first place to make a crystal that doesnt really participate in chemical reactions).

It also raises the concern of how the extractors will "extract"your resources (if they can actually find it?) will there be a swarm of megalomaniac bots that extracts people teeth for calcium ?

Which also means you cant make any of the resources which you find as drops. and so you will over time run out of resources. so either your previous statement or this statement is false , pick one , cant have it both ways.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And what I mean with only the worst case matters? If the worst case can be handled and the lesser threats can aswell, since they would pose no threat if the worst one doesnt. Hence why I made the army and cop examples.

And i am saying that is not true ,  all threats are a threat , death by rock pelting or death by incineration or death by continuous EMP bombardment is still death. you are only one tenno (that cant even make bombs), the human population is legion.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And Warframes do repair through the void, the operator allows them too, either through being in their presence with certain configurations or by using repairing or healing abilities innate to the frame. Or they simply sustain themselves overtime passively like Nidus or Citrine, with what is considered Healing Factor in Marvel. I mean we can repair our frames on the field as much as we like to with the operator, which only drains void energy from the operator. Just as the relation between the two can cause harm to the frame through transference static when the operator isnt careful. All those things are canon.

Some can repair, but can they do so if the void energy does not exist, which you have not yet answered?

if your "operator" appears on the field and gets shot in the head by a sniper each time they appear, how long do you think your frame will last? you seem to not get the point i am making , no matter how many times you repair your single frame , it will wear down over time as you will keep losing resources until it is in a state that it can no longer function.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And healing orbs is just a fancy game mechanic, nothing else. Likely based on something the nano-tech in the frame consumes or makes use of. Same with energy orbs.

Fancy mechanics which don't exist at this time, so no energy or health orbs for you. So no abilities that can be used as frequently as you want. So your frames are more like deadpool or wolverine in a sense. Are you getting what i am saying? They are powerful sure , but they are not something that can take on an entire planet without their powers.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Base or camp, semantics at best, since the orbiter is what we need as a base since it has everything. And why would we travel within the scope of a radar, at hights were it can spot us? Did our tenno suddenly turn retard for going back in time? Not all time travelers are Bill & Ted. 

And no with teleport I mean any frame using any archwing. Which in reality can travel great distances in a blink but is limited to shorter bursts in atmosphere due to map size limitations. And moving below radar is yet again a very real things. So we'd need a dumb as a door knob tenno for them to get caught or spotted. And what do you do in the open worlds when things start shooting at your Archwing? You blow it up and blink away and go about your business as usual.

Clearly , by your very first statement , the orbiter is limited in what it can produce , so you will need someone else to make many things for you so yes you will need actual factories to feed things to your orbiter , and a single tenno is unlikely to make that happen. And you cant take factories with you on the orbiter , they need to stay grounded.

And Yeah , why did your tenno go back in time and what are they actually trying to do ? haven't really answered that either yet have you? World domination ? silent vigilantism? creating a council of low and understanding?  Making a shawzin band ?

maybe they did turn retarded depending on what they want , you never know what time traveling will do to your head. Last time something like this happened we lost all our tenno powers and were 20 years older :P , or were we ? maybe we just went catatonic , in which our mind made up things we heard in a story book?

And Aren't you trying to cover large distances as soon as possible? so you will probably want to fly above cover , unless you want to crash into everything or fly slow enough to be targeted by ground fire. Your choice is targeted by fighter crafts or targeted by ground troops. And again , Archwing launchers cost resources you cant make. So running out of more resources the more you exert yourself.

You will eventually run dry and the last warframe will fall and then your ship will be out of power , then the planet may either push you into the sun, let the orbiter be your eternal prison or put you through more experiments.

 

 

[Loza03]

This is getting real good, remind me to read this properly through later

[Kaotyke]

In terms of how today's Earth vs 1 Tenno would go...

Well, the Tenno's arsenal would be limited. At least the more exotic resources would be scarce or nonexistent, like Cetus".

In terms of combat, depending on the Warframe used, Earth's forces would have no defenses. A direct confrontation is death to the Armies if we take away any gameplay limitation.

I saw a bit of the NUKES HELL YEAAAHHHH!! Here but... Guys, nukes need activation, they are launched and EVERYONE knows when one is and they have travel time. If the Tenno has a Cephalon providing overwatch from orbit they will also know and the Tenno will be extracted by the LC or, if the LZ is too hot, use Archwing.

LC can also turn invisible and remain nearby and Cephalons can hack enemy systems by virtude of being uploaded brains, we do not have defenses for that kind of threat.

But 1 Tenno is still 1. Quantity is a quality of it's own... Even if we are seeing it's a very poor one IRL right now aside from just in-game.

What would be the objective of the Tenno against the nation? Because we can win many battles but still lose the war if the objective is not complete. If it's to bring it's leadership down to it's knees, surgical strikes against head of states. Like make them fall off windows with 2 bullets holes on the back of their heads and it's declared a suicide.

[cute_moth.npc]

On 2023-05-22 at 5:38 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Partly, but we do also eat things that are considered next gen weaponry in this day and age, like railgun rounds from things like the lanka, aswell as direct explosive hits from rockets and explosive rounds. And as to tank rounds, we already eat those from Thumpers and we eat air to ground cannon rounds from both grineer and corpus ships. And old Jackal used to try and inpregnate us with full rocket salvos.

However there are things that would cripple frames. Magnets, small rocks and even sand grains if we sit on a "horse", doorframes (the most unstoppable frame of all), doors in general, water with magnets in it, 

Empirically, none of the weapons our enemies use in game would actually be considered any good by our standards. 

Explosives in Warframe damage everything around them, indicating that they're anti personnel weapons.

Anti armor weapons make a visible explosion but are a shaped charge that creates an intensely focused point of destructive power. You probably couldn't destroy a modern tank with a Kuva ogris, but a javelin missile would probably punch your Warframe in half.

We think we're so tough, but we're actually just lucky our enemies are too stupid to start using the right kind of ammo ^^;

[ShogunGunshow]

4 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Empirically, none of the weapons our enemies use in game would actually be considered any good by our standards. 

Explosives in Warframe damage everything around them, indicating that they're anti personnel weapons.

Anti armor weapons make a visible explosion but are a shaped charge that creates an intensely focused point of destructive power. You probably couldn't destroy a modern tank with a Kuva ogris, but a javelin missile would probably punch your Warframe in half.

We think we're so tough, but we're actually just lucky our enemies are too stupid to start using the right kind of ammo ^^;

I think the conceit is that enemies are using some scifi materials for their armor and construction. It doesn't look impressive to us, but if they were using modern materials, Tenno bullets would punch holes right through it. Probably.

We'd be able to keep secrets from them. It's Lotus, after all, that ferrets our targets for us. Our intel gathering capabilities are woefully limited, and we didn't bring her back in time. So we the Tenno'd be relying on ... Ordis, pretty much. 

I'm not even sure whether to count the orbiter's 'stealth' capabilities, since I'm pretty sure the devs have also forgotten they did that (you'd think that we would have made use of it when raiding Ballas' ship instead of getting shredded in the railjack). It probably wouldn't be impossible to track regardless, though, because at least its engines would likely be putting out a lot of thermal. 

Also like. One soldier, no matter how powerful, can only do so much. Without proper intel, a Tenno is going to be striking more or less at random against military targets, which after initial hostilities are likely to be decoys. Absent all other solutions, the military can likely just stalemate the Tenno.

Also, I joked earlier about just luring them to waist-high water, but use of the environment is a good option. Such as, say, luring them into the lower depths of a facility, then dropping thousands of tons of earth and rock down on their heads with controlled demolitions. Even if the Tenno survives and is eventually able to claw their way out - unlikely since, you know, it's proven that Warframes need air - you've had ample time to set up a wrath of god against them wherever they end up to finish them off. 

[cute_moth.npc]

58 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I think the conceit is that enemies are using some scifi materials for their armor and construction. It doesn't look impressive to us, but if they were using modern materials, Tenno bullets would punch holes right through it. Probably

A lot of them use "Ferrite" which is a real world group of iron oxide ceramics.. It's weird to think about Ferrite as armor, because we use it for making magnets in the real world.. I wonder what it's mixed with? I bet it's Ostron tears and worm paste, gross! Very protective though.

The other one is "alloy" which is like.. Seriously ambiguous.. Sometimes people refer to aluminum when they say alloy, but there are a lot of alloys ^^;

I guess my question is, are we trying to take over the world, or destroy it? If you could get close enough to the leader of a nuclear power using Nyx, you could put everyone around them into confusion, take over their mind long enough to get a war started and basically get humans to destroy themselves? I don't have to worry about engaging any military at all if that goes okay.. Mm.. Getting off the planet or at least out of the first blast zones fast enough might be kind of sweaty though.. Wait, I guess that depends on whether Mind Control is really mind control or it just kind of makes your enemy like you more..

Taking over the planet I would try not to do alone.

[0_The_F00l]

9 hours ago, Loza03 said:

This is getting real good, remind me to read this properly through later

This is your reminder as you had requested.

Please feel free to tip your notifier.

[---Merchant---]

4 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

A lot of them use "Ferrite" which is a real world group of iron oxide ceramics.. It's weird to think about Ferrite as armor, because we use it for making magnets in the real world.. I wonder what it's mixed with? I bet it's Ostron tears and worm paste, gross! Very protective though.

The other one is "alloy" which is like.. Seriously ambiguous.. Sometimes people refer to aluminum when they say alloy, but there are a lot of alloys ^^;

I guess my question is, are we trying to take over the world, or destroy it? If you could get close enough to the leader of a nuclear power using Nyx, you could put everyone around them into confusion, take over their mind long enough to get a war started and basically get humans to destroy themselves? I don't have to worry about engaging any military at all if that goes okay.. Mm.. Getting off the planet or at least out of the first blast zones fast enough might be kind of sweaty though.. Wait, I guess that depends on whether Mind Control is really mind control or it just kind of makes your enemy like you more..

Taking over the planet I would try not to do alone.

This could create immortal enemy that does nuclear blast level of damage to tenno with its mere presence and also keeps instantly teleporting right next to tenno till end of times. Depending purely on how you interpret this ability working.
I actually lost defense mission because team mate created enemy that had insane damage and 2 shot our defense target from 100% to 0%. but i do not remember if it was mind control or the other one. 

Alternatively it would not work at all, because every human is named(boss) and bosses are immune to most abilities. If there is ever child named Generic Soldier 3910, yeah sure you can mind control that one.  President or high ranking officer? There is no way we do not consider those guys to be "boss" even if we use definition more friendly to you they have like millions of underlings. Making everyone honorary fastfood manager would also make us immune if being unique named enemy is not enough for you.

Also nearly everything on earth is radioactive, and radiation stops this ability from working. One of the radioactive things is human. So even without the boss part, it could still simply not work ever. Again depending how nice we want to be to Nyx.

It really depends on how much "fan fiction" do we allow or if we go by how the skills actually work ingame, realistically tenno would have no chance. And from cinematics  tenno look much weaker(more real) than ingame. But very cool!
You can see that there is no shield gating or immortality in cinematics. Nova does not just teleport the projectiles away but die instead, tenno is stabbed and can run out of stamina faced even with just with few enemies...

First we gotta decide what universe are we in, if we are in warframe universe then we too have magic abilities, immortality, shield gating impossibro technology etc. Bunch of people that like to meditate could probably trap tenno with their third eye and naruto jutsu alone and convert him to scientology. Friendship also would become actual superpower just like in anime.
Our technology would also look much different with all these magical alloys, aliens and void-traders giving us for example UltraTennokiller2000 robot prism for 1 Davinci's Painting,. Or luxury leather shoes(cosmetic skin) He is merchant, not tenno's lover. If he has any morals he would likely preffer saving civilization compared to earning 100ducats every 2 weeks. And 5billion people have good potential to earn him many ducats even if he is profit driven.  If he wants to maximize his ducat ownership killing tenno is his number 1 priority because after tenno farms all prime stuff in universe, then the only way to get more of them is to steal it from tenno.

If we are in our universe then tenno can not do any magic, because there is no magic source. They could still use what is just pure realistic technology, so Bo staff and that is about it, even prime version of same staff would disappear after arriving in this universe along with anything  else that is made of magic materials. You can not say that tenno ranged weapon will work when what powers it is magic crystal and magicium element with ancient unobtainablium dwarf-rune etching. I know that many weapons are destribed not as using "Spacemagic uranium" but instead it is called "oxorkonko sentient core" but it is effectively the same thing when arriving in our universe. Made up materials that can not or do not exist.

Tenno would be basically teenager with unmodded BO staff  after arriving on earth. Unable to control his warframes that would instantly vanish anyway because of the magic materials used to constuct them. And bioengineering that just makes no sense in our realm. For tenno to actually at least beat up 10 high schoolers, we already need to forgive too many unrealistic things.

I know that high-tech technology can look like magic, but in warframe it is actual magic. Void Energy=Mana in diablo 2 or world of warcraft. It has nothing to do with nano-bots or whatever. It is called Focus Schools not "Engineering schools" for reason. Even Star Trek with all its flaws is way more realistic than what we got here. Warframe is much closer to star-wars, magic crystal powered swords, actual space wizards... But luke skywalker arriving at earth to fight us would get shot by bow in to his knee and die to infection even if he comes 5000 years ago. Same for tenno, he would need to worry about starvation, freezing, tooth care not world domination.


This is ofcourse just like: who would win saitama from one punch man or superman? It depends purely on who writes the fan-fiction.
If it is anime fan he will say that saitama would win with... one punch. And if superman fan writes it then superman would win... without having to throw a punch at all he is so super after all!

So if we dismiss space magic, tenno has no chance, if space magic is a thing then we have no idea about how would the world look like so tenno could win easily by blasting us with voidfarts from the moon, or we would blast  him with voidfarts from earth and voidshield ourselves from him. Get voidfriends(everyone is enemy of tenno so that would be easy alliance to propose) and be ready with nullifier shields n other magical stuff.
Void is not tenno exclusive at all, we got void traders, sentients, captain vor, orokin drones, corrupted nulifiers and all void places are named after Earth Gods. Void is timeless so if we make alliance it would not matter what year it is, so potentially when tenno arrives here 3000years ago, we will have technology from billion years from future and tenno too. So i can only assume that billions of people with tenno technology and magical power level would beat one tenno. But that depends on who writes  the fan fic :^)

Tenno has what, 50 friends in  total? Tenno is worst guy in the multiverse when it comes diplomacy, and that he got like billion kills under his belt is cool bragging right but also makes him hated by everyone. If you went to me like "You know the guy that killed 1000000 of your people, at infinite resource cost in damages? We are about to kick his ass, will you help?" that is easy deal to make. With time travel any technological advantage makes no sense, because after you accept time travel technology is just in its peak perfect form everywhere and always, or nothing exists because said tech destroyed every particle in universe. There is no middle ground between these 2 things with time travel.  You can time travel infinitely to the the future and back but your technology is stuck only 100years ahead? Makes 0 sense. So what year does tenno arrive here does not even matter, if he comes in 1934 it is possible that there will be 0 humans already, everyone replaced by infested sentient voidblob powered tennoslaying machines that drink soylent for dinner or whatever else happens as consequence of time travel.

I would really not worry about tenno if magic and time travel were real. Because we would stop existing before even realizing that we could exist in first place. Same issue for Tenno, he will arrive at X-Y-Z coords in  A time? Well just send that message to the past, put rock, swords, grenade, poison or whatever else there and as he arrives he is instantly dead penetrated by rock. Put one where his computer is, prevents him from warning himself by sending message to the past about rock in said location. Is he going to magic that away? I will magic him back in. If you remove nearly all rules like this with fantasy nonsense there is no winning for anyone. That is also why fantasy where magic is much weaker and more grounded is more popular and celebrated. You do not want story about Gandalf instantly teleporting to the villain and making him disappear in fireball blast or villain doing that to main characters. You want story about relatable struggle. Glowing sword? Sure. Time traveling talking sword that has teleportation and can not be destroyed? That is way too much. People write themselves to such corners and then have to pretend that everyone is stupid for story to exist at all. Instead of calming down and saying stuff like "Most powerful wizard possible could cast one fireball per 1 year and then need to regenerate, and this ball would be capable of killing 1 armored knight or badly burning him" So he would instead use fire magic to light up oil-bombs and traps and suddenly he is limited by time, resources, wits. Needs to carry like 12 heavy oil-jars and train throwing, timing, lift weights.  Suddenly he becomes much more real  and relatable. And you can have talk like "Could he beat 2 archers?"  "Could he win against 30 soldiers in world war 2" and with some smart trap(tactic), he sure could. He could make the ammo depo explode, or grenades that are carried by soldiers.  But he can also get shot dead or die to food poisoning, freeze in winter without enough wood...  But immortal time traveling infinitely powerful perfectly technological advanced space ninja vs immortal infinitely powerful perfectly technologically advanced planet? Boring and you gotta make one of them very stupid for the other to win in your story. Or say "yes this tenno can time travel, but no one else can because uh uhm because i said so, not even any other tenno can do it"  Because you sure can find 1 tenno in infinite time and universe that does not like this other tenno genociding planet and time travel to prevent it.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I will hold you to this , cause this statement invalidates the ability of a lot of things which you describe.

Didn't you say we cant make anything you cant already make in game? so if you cant make bombs you cant make argon crystals either (not that it makes sense in the first place to make a crystal that doesnt really participate in chemical reactions).

It also raises the concern of how the extractors will "extract"your resources (if they can actually find it?) will there be a swarm of megalomaniac bots that extracts people teeth for calcium ?

Which also means you cant make any of the resources which you find as drops. and so you will over time run out of resources. so either your previous statement or this statement is false , pick one , cant have it both ways.

And i am saying that is not true ,  all threats are a threat , death by rock pelting or death by incineration or death by continuous EMP bombardment is still death. you are only one tenno (that cant even make bombs), the human population is legion.

Some can repair, but can they do so if the void energy does not exist, which you have not yet answered?

if your "operator" appears on the field and gets shot in the head by a sniper each time they appear, how long do you think your frame will last? you seem to not get the point i am making , no matter how many times you repair your single frame , it will wear down over time as you will keep losing resources until it is in a state that it can no longer function.

Fancy mechanics which don't exist at this time, so no energy or health orbs for you. So no abilities that can be used as frequently as you want. So your frames are more like deadpool or wolverine in a sense. Are you getting what i am saying? They are powerful sure , but they are not something that can take on an entire planet without their powers.

Clearly , by your very first statement , the orbiter is limited in what it can produce , so you will need someone else to make many things for you so yes you will need actual factories to feed things to your orbiter , and a single tenno is unlikely to make that happen. And you cant take factories with you on the orbiter , they need to stay grounded.

And Yeah , why did your tenno go back in time and what are they actually trying to do ? haven't really answered that either yet have you? World domination ? silent vigilantism? creating a council of low and understanding?  Making a shawzin band ?

maybe they did turn retarded depending on what they want , you never know what time traveling will do to your head. Last time something like this happened we lost all our tenno powers and were 20 years older :P , or were we ? maybe we just went catatonic , in which our mind made up things we heard in a story book?

And Aren't you trying to cover large distances as soon as possible? so you will probably want to fly above cover , unless you want to crash into everything or fly slow enough to be targeted by ground fire. Your choice is targeted by fighter crafts or targeted by ground troops. And again , Archwing launchers cost resources you cant make. So running out of more resources the more you exert yourself.

You will eventually run dry and the last warframe will fall and then your ship will be out of power , then the planet may either push you into the sun, let the orbiter be your eternal prison or put you through more experiments.

 

 

But what would we need any of that for when you interpret what I said in such a narrow way? We never need to refill anything in the game, so such a thing shouldnt be needed here either. And in reality the only thing we would ever actuall have to refill and sustain that we know of from gameplay is ammo, which the tenno wouldnt need to actually worry about, since we can already use any ammo according to game mechanics alone (which really shouldnt be used as a benchmark for a "real" situation), but we also have the option to modify weapons to effectively mutate whatever ammo we find. Which means aslong as the enemy has ammunition to shoot at us, killing that enemy will also give us more ammunition to shoot at them. My point regarding the bomb was simply that it is an unknow factor since we dont have anything like it in the game, nor do we know if the tenno is skilled enough in engineering to build one, or convert the warframe compartment into a bomb compartment and still retain the warframe compartment functions. There is a reason the tenno uses blueprints and a next level 3d printer that can also print biological mass.

Yes everything can be a threat, but if you can handle the hardest one we can assume the lower threats can also be handled it they arise. We can just look at other "super powered" concept and how trivial things like the police and so on get. We'd be Spiderman on crack for a cop for instance, and a mob trying to take us down with primitive tools would stand little chance.

Why would void energy not exsist? There would be no scenario to be had if it didnt. That is practically the foundation for there to even be a discussion regarding how the frames would match up versus the 30's to the end of the 90's or even now. The tenno would simply defeat itself by just going back without access to the void, so apparently it and the heart would exsist.

I'd also like to meet the sniper that manages to land a shot in the fraction of a second it takes the operator to appear and enter the void, which is likely not happening at the right range or in the crosshairs of the scope for starters. And considering the punishment we can take against massive amounts of enemies already without ever needing to self repair with the tenno, having to repair over and over wouldnt be needed. And since the OP has set the scenario of a fully stocked tenno, that means access to all arcanes aswell, so right there we have massive self repair options by just getting hit. Not only that, but if they go the sustain route through abilities, well they can also utilize infinite energy by slotting the right midifications for that. Which gets the frames into "Hulk" territory, the more you hurt them with conventional arms, the more durable they get.

There are health and energy "orbs" though. Like I said the orbs likely just represent something the frames consume in some way on the battlefield to sustain them, like the nano-bots in the helminth consuming pieces of corpses as the frame moves near them. Or it is simply an essence tied to the void being everywhere in everything, which is passively absorbed by the tenno. Which is the most likely headcanon due to the tenno being able to make use of those orbs aswell.

Again, why would we need things if you make use of "the bomb" comment so strictly. We need nothing then since we need nothing in the game to sustain our "war effort". You are really just assuming that we need a bunch of stuff that we actually have no clue about if we need or not. And we are afterall talking about tech from a highly advanced culture that makes the weapons the tenno currently uses look like sticks and stones in order to combat the sentient.

I dont know why the tenno would go back, that is up to the OP to decide. Our power really doesnt change based on why we went back. To live some old 1940's gangester life? Well no Warframe needed since the tenno can goof around as much as he likes since he's immortal. I mean, heck in most cases the tenno alone could do it all, since it cannot die aslong as the orbiter is intact. Nuke it? "Aw dagnabbit! Back in the chair again!" over and over. But considering what the OP presented, for a reason that involves earth nations and combat. I dont think a shawzin band would result in that, unless they really really suck.

Why would we want to cover large distances as fast as possible? What is the actual hurry? You have some very wierd scenario where we are at constant combat and everything is trying to shoot at us every single step we take. Imagine if that was the case, then we'd have no airplanes in the air these days when everyone wants to actually shoot at someone else in some part of the world. No, things would likely work as now, with warzones and cold zones where we simply traverse to get to the warzones. And when was the last time you played WF? Archwings havent required charges for many years now. They are just another tool just like our Mechs.

We'd only run out of frames if the tenno was tactical like a dead rock. But with the access to the frames we have, we would most likely never lose all or any frame for that matter. We have a tool for practically every job needed. We have high tech stealth frames perfect for assassination, either for direct effect or to spread discord and blame between nations, they are also ideal for sabotage. We have access to a gunship the size of a human foot, with firepower on the levels of a Thunderbolt aircraft atleast. Then we have frames that can face full armies head on, with so much destructive power and durability that practically nothing but the direct hit from a nuke could take them down. I mean we know we cant take a nuke hit due to the profit taker fight, but we also know we can survive a critical reactor meltdown from a mid sized vessel like the crewships. So in reality it would depend on how smart the tenno is, where it would start to knock things out. And quite franky, hitting up nuclear weapon locations with stealth to start would very likely be a smart move. It would lead to the loss of nuclear strike options and it would shift blame between nations early on, giving the tenno a good window to do this elsewhere aswell. Crippling or limiting the option severely across the globe. Ivara alone could cause so much damage to earth defenses and no one would ever know.

 

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Empirically, none of the weapons our enemies use in game would actually be considered any good by our standards. 

Explosives in Warframe damage everything around them, indicating that they're anti personnel weapons.

Anti armor weapons make a visible explosion but are a shaped charge that creates an intensely focused point of destructive power. You probably couldn't destroy a modern tank with a Kuva ogris, but a javelin missile would probably punch your Warframe in half.

We think we're so tough, but we're actually just lucky our enemies are too stupid to start using the right kind of ammo ^^;

Well yes and no. I think for instance the explosives thing is more of a "Hollywood" issue than a real intended implementation of explosives. I mean, how many movies, games or TV-shows do we see where explosions use real mechanics? When was the last time we saw an old soviet era bazooka (forgot the name) not just go "boom" as a ball of fire or look like it struck the ground like a bomb? When have we ever seen it actually penetrate and take the shape of the intended super heated "cone" outside of uhm Mythbusters? I dont think we can experience it in an "authentic" game like Battlefield or even Arma.

And while a Jav could surely wreck a frame, it would also need to hit it at the speeds and with the irratic movement it moves. Just locking onto a frame would likely be hard, are they even made up of components that the Jav system can lock onto? And for tanks I think it is more that nearly all Warframe guns that can utilize slash would render tanks dead in their tracks by being able to get through the armor and kill what is inside or screw up electronics. It is the anti-armor damage of Warframe, it doesnt destroy the armor it gets through it and kills what is inside. edit: Not to mention that we have access to punch through for all weapons, so any gun can really be turned into an anti-tank gun. And even with low punch through we are looking at something like 1.5 meters, no tank has armor that thick. So a supra with punch through or a well aimed arca plasmor shot would waste any tank.

edit2: Which also makes me think of how deadly all stealth frames would be for clearing covert based missions aslong as they bring a radar. Just kill everything silently through walls as you advance on the objective.

[0_The_F00l]

32 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You are really just assuming that we need a bunch of stuff that we actually have no clue about if we need or not.

Ding ding ding , we have a winner. Our entire discussion is based on conjecture, You assume certain things are true , i assume certain other things are true , neither of us is technically right  ,nor can we be wrong. So keep that in mind , i base my assumptions of the reality of our universe and certain laws of physics , you prefer to base it on the reality of the game that is based on hoodoo space magic. We cannot actually debate until we define the parameters of the universe (which is already full of many many plotholes) , thats why i am catching you in your own words as they themselves lack logical consistence.

Moving on to the rest of what you said,

39 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But what would we need any of that for when you interpret what I said in such a narrow way? We never need to refill anything in the game, so such a thing shouldnt be needed here either. And in reality the only thing we would ever actuall have to refill and sustain that we know of from gameplay is ammo, which the tenno wouldnt need to actually worry about, since we can already use any ammo according to game mechanics alone (which really shouldnt be used as a benchmark for a "real" situation), but we also have the option to modify weapons to effectively mutate whatever ammo we find. Which means aslong as the enemy has ammunition to shoot at us, killing that enemy will also give us more ammunition to shoot at them. My point regarding the bomb was simply that it is an unknow factor since we dont have anything like it in the game, nor do we know if the tenno is skilled enough in engineering to build one, or convert the warframe compartment into a bomb compartment and still retain the warframe compartment functions. There is a reason the tenno uses blueprints and a next level 3d printer that can also print biological mass.

Narrow? i am being on point , you are being too vague on the capabilities of Tenno , on one side you say the tenno is adaptable but also say that they cant make a basic incendiary device? it was less about the bomb and more about the capability of our orbiter to create things which it is not used to. If you cannot create a consistent logical basis then you can come up with any reason that may not actually be possible, anything you dont like is "only for gameplay simplification" and anything you do like is "canon and possible even across dimensions" get a bit more consistent with your own statements please.

Plus There are plenty of bombs in the game , so that statement is also false.

Ammo in game universe only comes as secondary ammo , primary ammo and heavy ammo does not get mutated, so it is possible to have ammo that cannot be mutated, What gurantee exists that the ammo in the old world will be compatible for mutation? there is none there is actually very less chance as the old ammo was mostly lead and metal . We dont know what are the conditions for mutation to be successful.

Just because you never see any usage of resources does not mean they dont happen.

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes everything can be a threat, but if you can handle the hardest one we can assume the lower threats can also be handled it they arise. We can just look at other "super powered" concept and how trivial things like the police and so on get. We'd be Spiderman on crack for a cop for instance, and a mob trying to take us down with primitive tools would stand little chance.

They can be handled , but low chance does not mean no chance , probability and numbers come into picture here. 1 % chance if there are more than 100 units is still a viable chance each time you engage. As i said , they only need to get lucky once.

53 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Why would void energy not exsist? There would be no scenario to be had if it didnt. That is practically the foundation for there to even be a discussion regarding how the frames would match up versus the 30's to the end of the 90's or even now. The tenno would simply defeat itself by just going back without access to the void, so apparently it and the heart would exsist.

It would not exist because it isn't discovered yet or as per eternalism it is a universe where the void has not manifested in the way we know. It may exist but can the tenno actually harness it ? Unknown , you assume it will be i assume it will not be after we make the jump. And if , if void energy does exist dont you think the people of the planet can also exploit it?

55 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'd also like to meet the sniper that manages to land a shot in the fraction of a second it takes the operator to appear and enter the void, which is likely not happening at the right range or in the crosshairs of the scope for starters. And considering the punishment we can take against massive amounts of enemies already without ever needing to self repair with the tenno, having to repair over and over wouldnt be needed. And since the OP has set the scenario of a fully stocked tenno, that means access to all arcanes aswell, so right there we have massive self repair options by just getting hit. Not only that, but if they go the sustain route through abilities, well they can also utilize infinite energy by slotting the right midifications for that. Which gets the frames into "Hulk" territory, the more you hurt them with conventional arms, the more durable they get.

A very good sniper. If you can time travel i can have a sniper with eagle eyes and extremely sharp intuitions. One is more likely than the other too.Fully stocked does not mean you can have everything at once. you will still be limited by what options are available. I would love to do an actual simulation ,lets say , you pick any waframe loadout combo and i will pick a suitable response that can disable it then we can argue about if it would be something possible or not.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

There are health and energy "orbs" though. Like I said the orbs likely just represent something the frames consume in some way on the battlefield to sustain them, like the nano-bots in the helminth consuming pieces of corpses as the frame moves near them. Or it is simply an essence tied to the void being everywhere in everything, which is passively absorbed by the tenno. Which is the most likely headcanon due to the tenno being able to make use of those orbs aswell

 

there is no way that they will be dropped in the world with no nano tech or sentient existing yet , your assumption again is wishful thinking based on conjecture. My point remains that any resources that sustain the tenno may not exist on which you base the resiliency of the frames.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Again, why would we need things if you make use of "the bomb" comment so strictly. We need nothing then since we need nothing in the game to sustain our "war effort". You are really just assuming that we need a bunch of stuff that we actually have no clue about if we need or not. And we are afterall talking about tech from a highly advanced culture that makes the weapons the tenno currently uses look like sticks and stones in order to combat the sentient.

We need plenty of things , its just not in your face all the time most of it is handled by ordis , lotus and helminth that take what they need over time, probably not shown in your supply and managed through different channels, The missions themselves could be payment of resources needed to sustain themselves. If we were completely self reliant we wouldn't need to do missions in the first place just create a colony of orbiters to act as a sanctuary. Nor would The orokin need to colonise other planets and star systems.

So no, there is no "perfect terrarium" that can sustain itself without external input indefinitely you will need resources over time.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont know why the tenno would go back, that is up to the OP to decide. Our power really doesnt change based on why we went back. To live some old 1940's gangester life? Well no Warframe needed since the tenno can goof around as much as he likes since he's immortal. I mean, heck in most cases the tenno alone could do it all, since it cannot die aslong as the orbiter is intact. Nuke it? "Aw dagnabbit! Back in the chair again!" over and over. But considering what the OP presented, for a reason that involves earth nations and combat. I dont think a shawzin band would result in that, unless they really really suck.

Intent is important , psychology plays a virtal role in defeating your enemies or manipulating them into breaking themselves,

If your core purpose is to cause destruction wherever you go , you bet your ass you will always be wanted by every single agency in the world with no time to rest.

If your intention is to covertly take out the man on the throne , you might achieve it temporarily , you will then have another person on the throne and nothing really changes.

If you want yourself to be on the throne (or in its shadow) then you will have to setup a loyal administration , commit time away from your warframes , and ocassionally be in public. Any of these could be used against you in multiple ways of sabotage and if you chose to share your tech then it could also be used against you.

Not to mention the warframes might be able to bear physical attacks but our tenno are not immune to "EMOTIONAL DAMAGE!" and have been in the past easily manipulated by many entities,

SO that is why intent matters , Intent that is not yet clear.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Why would we want to cover large distances as fast as possible? What is the actual hurry? You have some very wierd scenario where we are at constant combat and everything is trying to shoot at us every single step we take. Imagine if that was the case, then we'd have no airplanes in the air these days when everyone wants to actually shoot at someone else in some part of the world. No, things would likely work as now, with warzones and cold zones where we simply traverse to get to the warzones. And when was the last time you played WF? Archwings havent required charges for many years now. They are just another tool just like our Mechs.

 

You are the one that said you are using archwings to teleport , you wanna use archwings to cover short distances? sure go ahead waste of resources and more likely to get spotted if you ask me , And that is where again intent comes in the picture you can absolutely be in a continuous combat situation .

oh yeah , archwings totally need resources , they just dont show up cause it would get in the middle of gameplay :P ordis just keeps a separate budget for it and buys grokdul and fish oil stocked for a few runs.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

We'd only run out of frames if the tenno was tactical like a dead rock. But with the access to the frames we have, we would most likely never lose all or any frame for that matter. We have a tool for practically every job needed. We have high tech stealth frames perfect for assassination, either for direct effect or to spread discord and blame between nations, they are also ideal for sabotage. We have access to a gunship the size of a human foot, with firepower on the levels of a Thunderbolt aircraft atleast. Then we have frames that can face full armies head on, with so much destructive power and durability that practically nothing but the direct hit from a nuke could take them down. I mean we know we cant take a nuke hit due to the profit taker fight, but we also know we can survive a critical reactor meltdown from a mid sized vessel like the crewships. So in reality it would depend on how smart the tenno is, where it would start to knock things out. And quite franky, hitting up nuclear weapon locations with stealth to start would very likely be a smart move. It would lead to the loss of nuclear strike options and it would shift blame between nations early on, giving the tenno a good window to do this elsewhere aswell. Crippling or limiting the option severely across the globe. Ivara alone could cause so much damage to earth defenses and no one would ever know.

 

You are assuming the opponent would be equally dead rocked , underestimating your enemies shows exactly the flaw in your tactics :P. Pride comes before the fall after all.

we have a gunship the size of a human foot? what now? when did that happen? do you mean the sentinels? or the robo cleaner units? so confused , Or do you mean the railjack?

The Railjack would be pretty useless , as there are no solar rails to jack into.

And as i have repeated mltiple times  the tenno can cause a lot of chaos but it cannot do so indefinitely , and there is no way a single being (no matter how powerful) , can bring new order without some sort of an administration to back them.

[Loza03]

17 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

We'd be able to keep secrets from them. It's Lotus, after all, that ferrets our targets for us. Our intel gathering capabilities are woefully limited, and we didn't bring her back in time. So we the Tenno'd be relying on ... Ordis, pretty much. 

In fairness, Ordis took on the Lotus's role pretty darn successfully. Granted, any new situations that came up he handed off to other groups, but the guy was handling what was pretty well.

But in turn, there's another problem. This thought experiment is set in the 1900's. Most of the information is stored on paper. Ordis can't hack paper. Granted, a Tenno that learns where the stuff's stored via interrogation would be easily able to grab it, and no encryption at the time would stand a chance (I mean, it's the 1900's) but we'd need to get it first.

However, a counter counterpoint is that early digital and radio communications would probably be very easily intercepted by Ordis's sensors.

17 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I'm not even sure whether to count the orbiter's 'stealth' capabilities, since I'm pretty sure the devs have also forgotten they did that (you'd think that we would have made use of it when raiding Ballas' ship instead of getting shredded in the railjack). It probably wouldn't be impossible to track regardless, though, because at least its engines would likely be putting out a lot of thermal. 

I mean, it's the 1900's. Even if they found the Orbiter, what exactly are they going to do about it. Launch a chemical-fuel rocket at the FTL-capable ship? The landing craft is also most likely only visible for a few moments, when the Tenno is exiting and entering. Vulnerable then, but you'd need to be ready.

17 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Also like. One soldier, no matter how powerful, can only do so much. Without proper intel, a Tenno is going to be striking more or less at random against military targets, which after initial hostilities are likely to be decoys. Absent all other solutions, the military can likely just stalemate the Tenno.

Initially. But the Tenno aren't dumb. Whilst the Lotus and Ordis do the brunt of the work, the Tenno has shown on multiple occasions that they at least understand tactics and strategy, even if only from having done them for so long (Jupiter Sabotage, the Sacrifice and the New War have the Tenno take initative in their missions without major hitches), so their first priority would be to gather adequate information, though you make a good point about decoy locations. Then again, Ordis would likely be able to identify warring nations, and thus be able to gather intelligence on one nation by stealing intel from another. Less accurate, but you get that first strike against unprepared targets quite a few times.

Tenno are also trained in Guerrilla tactics as well as their fire superiority, so whilst they lack many options for really utilising either, they're quite capable of putting up a fight against a materially superior opponent.

17 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Also, I joked earlier about just luring them to waist-high water, but use of the environment is a good option. Such as, say, luring them into the lower depths of a facility, then dropping thousands of tons of earth and rock down on their heads with controlled demolitions. Even if the Tenno survives and is eventually able to claw their way out - unlikely since, you know, it's proven that Warframes need air - you've had ample time to set up a wrath of god against them wherever they end up to finish them off. 

The main problem is getting them there though. Whilst decoys are good, you'd need to both confirm their existence (and it'd probably take at least a while before anyone in charge believed people yammering about a 'magic death monster', though granted less given that there'd clearly be something happening), as well as accurately guess where the Tenno is going next. Tenno tend to fight efficient. Single objective, in, out, done. Hiding intel in the basement is the best bet, but you are also risking losing whatever it is the Tenno wants in the first place. Plus, as I've said before, it is a complement of Warframes piloted by one Tenno, so the trick probably isn't going to work twice, though if you've put up enough of a fight for the Tenno to have picked a frame especially well suited (Saryn or the aforementioned Revenant), you quite possibly could get rid of that particularly dangerous frame, which is at least somewhat of a win.

 

I think a seperate condition is to consider what the Tenno's win condition is - is the objective to completely eradicate the military, force surrender from a country or end a major conflict. Completely crushing a military is one thing, but alternate win conditions are more possible. A Tenno could easily get their hands on launc cods for both sides of the Cold War, once they knew what those were, and then effectively broadcast a message of 'Play nice, or or the rest of the planet won't have to worry about your respective nations anymore.'

 

 

14 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

This is your reminder as you had requested.

Please feel free to tip your notifier.

Here is your tip 

Spoiler

 

[0_The_F00l]

20 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Here is your tip 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

*nom nom nom*

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ding ding ding , we have a winner. Our entire discussion is based on conjecture, You assume certain things are true , i assume certain other things are true , neither of us is technically right  ,nor can we be wrong. So keep that in mind , i base my assumptions of the reality of our universe and certain laws of physics , you prefer to base it on the reality of the game that is based on hoodoo space magic. We cannot actually debate until we define the parameters of the universe (which is already full of many many plotholes) , thats why i am catching you in your own words as they themselves lack logical consistence.

Moving on to the rest of what you said,

Narrow? i am being on point , you are being too vague on the capabilities of Tenno , on one side you say the tenno is adaptable but also say that they cant make a basic incendiary device? it was less about the bomb and more about the capability of our orbiter to create things which it is not used to. If you cannot create a consistent logical basis then you can come up with any reason that may not actually be possible, anything you dont like is "only for gameplay simplification" and anything you do like is "canon and possible even across dimensions" get a bit more consistent with your own statements please.

Plus There are plenty of bombs in the game , so that statement is also false.

Ammo in game universe only comes as secondary ammo , primary ammo and heavy ammo does not get mutated, so it is possible to have ammo that cannot be mutated, What gurantee exists that the ammo in the old world will be compatible for mutation? there is none there is actually very less chance as the old ammo was mostly lead and metal . We dont know what are the conditions for mutation to be successful.

Just because you never see any usage of resources does not mean they dont happen.

They can be handled , but low chance does not mean no chance , probability and numbers come into picture here. 1 % chance if there are more than 100 units is still a viable chance each time you engage. As i said , they only need to get lucky once.

It would not exist because it isn't discovered yet or as per eternalism it is a universe where the void has not manifested in the way we know. It may exist but can the tenno actually harness it ? Unknown , you assume it will be i assume it will not be after we make the jump. And if , if void energy does exist dont you think the people of the planet can also exploit it?

A very good sniper. If you can time travel i can have a sniper with eagle eyes and extremely sharp intuitions. One is more likely than the other too.Fully stocked does not mean you can have everything at once. you will still be limited by what options are available. I would love to do an actual simulation ,lets say , you pick any waframe loadout combo and i will pick a suitable response that can disable it then we can argue about if it would be something possible or not.

there is no way that they will be dropped in the world with no nano tech or sentient existing yet , your assumption again is wishful thinking based on conjecture. My point remains that any resources that sustain the tenno may not exist on which you base the resiliency of the frames.

We need plenty of things , its just not in your face all the time most of it is handled by ordis , lotus and helminth that take what they need over time, probably not shown in your supply and managed through different channels, The missions themselves could be payment of resources needed to sustain themselves. If we were completely self reliant we wouldn't need to do missions in the first place just create a colony of orbiters to act as a sanctuary. Nor would The orokin need to colonise other planets and star systems.

So no, there is no "perfect terrarium" that can sustain itself without external input indefinitely you will need resources over time.

Intent is important , psychology plays a virtal role in defeating your enemies or manipulating them into breaking themselves,

If your core purpose is to cause destruction wherever you go , you bet your ass you will always be wanted by every single agency in the world with no time to rest.

If your intention is to covertly take out the man on the throne , you might achieve it temporarily , you will then have another person on the throne and nothing really changes.

If you want yourself to be on the throne (or in its shadow) then you will have to setup a loyal administration , commit time away from your warframes , and ocassionally be in public. Any of these could be used against you in multiple ways of sabotage and if you chose to share your tech then it could also be used against you.

Not to mention the warframes might be able to bear physical attacks but our tenno are not immune to "EMOTIONAL DAMAGE!" and have been in the past easily manipulated by many entities,

SO that is why intent matters , Intent that is not yet clear.

You are the one that said you are using archwings to teleport , you wanna use archwings to cover short distances? sure go ahead waste of resources and more likely to get spotted if you ask me , And that is where again intent comes in the picture you can absolutely be in a continuous combat situation .

oh yeah , archwings totally need resources , they just dont show up cause it would get in the middle of gameplay :P ordis just keeps a separate budget for it and buys grokdul and fish oil stocked for a few runs.

You are assuming the opponent would be equally dead rocked , underestimating your enemies shows exactly the flaw in your tactics :P. Pride comes before the fall after all.

we have a gunship the size of a human foot? what now? when did that happen? do you mean the sentinels? or the robo cleaner units? so confused , Or do you mean the railjack?

The Railjack would be pretty useless , as there are no solar rails to jack into.

And as i have repeated mltiple times  the tenno can cause a lot of chaos but it cannot do so indefinitely , and there is no way a single being (no matter how powerful) , can bring new order without some sort of an administration to back them.

The first thing that needs to happen is you accepting that the void would be present and usable i.e heart and everything is with us. If that wont happen it is pointless to discuss a what if, since the tenno would be dead in the water before ever reaching earth, since the void is needed for both frames and transference. So without it, a bunch of husks and a kid drifting in space. So if you cant accept that you can ignore the rest I'm gonna write.

As to ammo and frame maintenance (if you still think that is needed). Here are simple endless solutions that need nothing. Protea, Protea specter or simply dispensery on any other frame would allow for infinite ammunition and health of the appropriate kind. Protea specter would be ideal since it could be on duty 24/7 on the orbiter producing ammunition for all weapons and health/energy "orbs" as the tenno is on missions. Citrine occupying the same area as other frame would provide infinite repairs/regeneration or whatever we wanna call frame healing, the same would apply with azure shards or actively using Oberon, Trinity or other healers during downtime on the Orbiter. And since we wouldnt have to worry about gameplay variables, like trying to min-max are farming potential around loot/hour, going all out on dps etc. wouldnt be needed, so slotting azure shards for health replenishment wouldnt be a drawback.

For materials, well the RJ solves all of that, since it allows us to go anywhere we need really, because it uses a reliquairy drive just like the Zariman, which is powered by the finger and allows void travel. So no need for rails etc. to travel between planets. Not that we'd need it with the Orbiter either, it would just take longer to get where we wanna go. Rails were created to allow for safe travel. The main question is what materials are proccessed or not and which materials we'd actually need.

Regarding a frame scenario. Ivara or Loki with a dispensery slotted and energy efficiency modifications maxed out. With Loki also focusing on increasing the range of his powers aswell as having his disarm augmented to cause infighting and confusion. Both with fully silenced weapons, potentially a Incarnon Burston or Torid along with a Laetum. And just for utility a Helios sentinel to scan things. With weapons equppied since we arent limited to moron pet A.I in such a scenario. Ivara obviously with Infiltrate. No Decoy on Loki and no Navigator on Ivara.

Also, regarding your foot sized gunship question. Isnt it quite obvious when we only have a single foot sized thing in the game? The answer is Titania.

As to your last statement. Well sure, but the tenno wouldnt be alone. They'd work in a similar way to Victor Von Doom in Marvel. A single ruler making use of automated units to maintain order and provide to the people. The tenno could easily win the hearts of earth if they didnt act like a villain. By providing things like Protea, Citrine, Wisp or Trinity specters to allied armed forces or regional health care. I mean who wouldnt want those options as part of their health care plan for free, or have several risks removed from an active combat situation? And who wouldnt love to have Clem show up at their birthday party? We would in addition to that also have what I'd consider family to help us, like our crew along with Kahl and friends that are part of our camp family.

[BornWithTeeth]

As the person who posted this thread, cool, let's raise the level of engagement. 

Now it's four Tenno, four Orbiters, at least two Railjacks, and a Clan Dojo station. The Tenno Orbiters are equipped with, get this, remember, it's a real thing in game, deployable Resource Extractor drones.

 

Now what?

[Felsagger]

On 2023-05-24 at 10:55 AM, SneakyErvin said:

The things we dont actually make use of in the game should not be part of what we'd use in a what if scenario. So no home made bombs and so on.

We wouldnt need interplanetary traversal. You should look up where certain things come from. Yes we find fancy argon crystals in the void for instance, but argon is already an element on earth. A gas for that matter, which can in reality be harvested in such a case. And regarding out extractors, they seem to simply need to refuel or repower on their own, solar energy perhaps? Because we dont need to pay any upkeep for them. So there you'd have access to the materials we need overall. And Ordis will help us scan it potentially, since how else do we know where to send them in the origin system? And since we have access to the helminth and the foundry, we'd likely solve resource needs for ammo just as the tenno solved resource needs to build their own frames without access to orokin materials. So at worst we'd really run around with something similar to baseline items versus primes. Or we'd be stuck with battery weapons in the end.

And what I mean with only the worst case matters? If the worst case can be handled and the lesser threats can aswell, since they would pose no threat if the worst one doesnt. Hence why I made the army and cop examples.

And Warframes do repair through the void, the operator allows them too, either through being in their presence with certain configurations or by using repairing or healing abilities innate to the frame. Or they simply sustain themselves overtime passively like Nidus or Citrine, with what is considered Healing Factor in Marvel. I mean we can repair our frames on the field as much as we like to with the operator, which only drains void energy from the operator. Just as the relation between the two can cause harm to the frame through transference static when the operator isnt careful. All those things are canon.

And healing orbs is just a fancy game mechanic, nothing else. Likely based on something the nano-tech in the frame consumes or makes use of. Same with energy orbs.

Base or camp, semantics at best, since the orbiter is what we need as a base since it has everything. And why would we travel within the scope of a radar, at hights were it can spot us? Did our tenno suddenly turn retard for going back in time? Not all time travelers are Bill & Ted. 

And no with teleport I mean any frame using any archwing. Which in reality can travel great distances in a blink but is limited to shorter bursts in atmosphere due to map size limitations. And moving below radar is yet again a very real things. So we'd need a dumb as a door knob tenno for them to get caught or spotted. And what do you do in the open worlds when things start shooting at your Archwing? You blow it up and blink away and go about your business as usual.

Ah true, forgot about that!

 

 

THIS IS A DEEPLY interesting post. There are profound interesting gameplay elements contained here in this explanation that is lore oriented. 

[Felsagger]

16 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

As the person who posted this thread, cool, let's raise the level of engagement. 

Now it's four Tenno, four Orbiters, at least two Railjacks, and a Clan Dojo station. The Tenno Orbiters are equipped with, get this, remember, it's a real thing in game, deployable Resource Extractor drones.

 

Now what?

 

That changes the rules. 

In our current state of technology, knowledge and organization, that can't be stopped. 

The difference here is TLC or the technology of information and communication on the Clan Dojo Station. A clan Dojo Station is a game over for our forces. 

 

[Loza03]

29 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

and a Clan Dojo station

Oh, oh this changes the game. 

See, a clan Dojo, even if it's just a single clan, canonically hosts 1,000 Tenno, and probably more non-Tenno individuals given that we see NPC's in the drydock, storage. That gives the Tenno an actual working base of operations that 1900's individuals have a 0% chance of accessing because it's in space and can be comfortably outside earth's Sphere of Influence. So we're looking at a very, very comfortable opportunity to stage a realistic resistance movement.

We don't really necessarily know how effective the resource extractors are though, since we don't know if Ferrite is the real-world Ferrite, or a magic supermaterial called Ferrite after millenia of Orokin Meddling. 

The nations would also need to take out 208 warframes, not 52, so that makes things harder there too.

[SneakyErvin]

57 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

As the person who posted this thread, cool, let's raise the level of engagement. 

Now it's four Tenno, four Orbiters, at least two Railjacks, and a Clan Dojo station. The Tenno Orbiters are equipped with, get this, remember, it's a real thing in game, deployable Resource Extractor drones.

 

Now what?

With extractors as a given we would be able to get several materials, but there are many we still wouldnt be able to obtain since they dont exsist until the Orokin empire does. Extractors could potentially give us ferrite, gallium and other real world related materials. And depending on how the extractors work they could provide us with things like polymer etc. by uhm stealing(?) it. Plastids and nano-spores could be obtained if we can get helminth to create them from something else we feed it. But Orokin Cells, Morphics and such would be out of reach. Though, depending on how Lavos really works canonically, he could potentially be used to transmaute what we need through his alchemy.

And with a Dojo and 2 railjacks we would never need to park close to earth. We could make a base of operations on the Dojo station near whatever planet we jump back in time from. Then use RJs to travel across Sol, since they use the voidfinger to travel. And transference doesnt seem to have any real distance limitations.

[0_The_F00l]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The first thing that needs to happen is you accepting that the void would be present and usable i.e heart and everything is with us. If that wont happen it is pointless to discuss a what if, since the tenno would be dead in the water before ever reaching earth, since the void is needed for both frames and transference. So without it, a bunch of husks and a kid drifting in space. So if you cant accept that you can ignore the rest I'm gonna write.

So yes , in the scenario where the void is not present the only thing that goes back is a derelict ship. That is one possible scenario and gameover on arrival. Which i feel is a likely possibility , but that's just one possible scenario.

Another possible scenario is that the void does allow travel but it reduces the means of transference (same as when the heart was damaged) That also severely cripples the ability of tenno and frames (also likely).

And finally the Void allows full functionality and literally "bleeds" into the old world , in which case it would be reasonable to think there can be void storms created , and all the modifiers that apply to regular missions also apply here. Including the ability of enemy forces to gain resilience as time goes on ,i.e. enemies gain levels , yes? we will go with this scenario.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

As to ammo and frame maintenance (if you still think that is needed). Here are simple endless solutions that need nothing. Protea, Protea specter or simply dispensery on any other frame would allow for infinite ammunition and health of the appropriate kind. Protea specter would be ideal since it could be on duty 24/7 on the orbiter producing ammunition for all weapons and health/energy "orbs" as the tenno is on missions. Citrine occupying the same area as other frame would provide infinite repairs/regeneration or whatever we wanna call frame healing, the same would apply with azure shards or actively using Oberon, Trinity or other healers during downtime on the Orbiter. And since we wouldnt have to worry about gameplay variables, like trying to min-max are farming potential around loot/hour, going all out on dps etc. wouldnt be needed, so slotting azure shards for health replenishment wouldnt be a drawback.

Any specters would need resources that will be used up over time , they would also not be as resilient or intelligent with a penchant to end up dead soon. Adding dispensary to every frame? sure , that could work if you really want to do that. But you need energy to cast it in the first place if you get causght at just the wrong time , then no more energy and no more abilities. Could probably take care of that with zenurilk free cast or energy siphon (if you can survive long enough), so yes that is one possible way to maintain self sustain.

I concede on that point :)

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

For materials, well the RJ solves all of that, since it allows us to go anywhere we need really, because it uses a reliquairy drive just like the Zariman, which is powered by the finger and allows void travel. So no need for rails etc. to travel between planets. Not that we'd need it with the Orbiter either, it would just take longer to get where we wanna go. Rails were created to allow for safe travel. The main question is what materials are proccessed or not and which materials we'd actually need.

Hmm , yes the rail jack could move between regions relatively quickly i suppose. But since it doesnt have any extractors of its own , it will not be able to obtain any resources it cant smash in space. And barring titanium most of the resources needed are things we "scavenge" from caches and there would be no chance of getting these things. There is also the question of fuel. If the rail jack has fuel intake it needs fuel , usually provided from a dry dock. So where will you get compatible fuel from that can power the necessary functions? so no , railjack will be pretty useless in the past. Just as an EV will be pretty useless without a charging station. The reliquary drive is like the engine , but a craft is more than an engine.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Regarding a frame scenario. Ivara or Loki with a dispensery slotted and energy efficiency modifications maxed out. With Loki also focusing on increasing the range of his powers aswell as having his disarm augmented to cause infighting and confusion. Both with fully silenced weapons, potentially a Incarnon Burston or Torid along with a Laetum. And just for utility a Helios sentinel to scan things. With weapons equppied since we arent limited to moron pet A.I in such a scenario. Ivara obviously with Infiltrate. No Decoy on Loki and no Navigator on Ivara.
 

Gas chamber with deadlocks and non visual sensors (pressure , temperature , trip wires ) with persistent toxin supply and magnets thrown in for good measure :P,

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also, regarding your foot sized gunship question. Isnt it quite obvious when we only have a single foot sized thing in the game? The answer is Titania.

 

I really though that was a sentinel , we do have a number of those.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

As to your last statement. Well sure, but the tenno wouldnt be alone. They'd work in a similar way to Victor Von Doom in Marvel. A single ruler making use of automated units to maintain order and provide to the people. The tenno could easily win the hearts of earth if they didnt act like a villain. By providing things like Protea, Citrine, Wisp or Trinity specters to allied armed forces or regional health care. I mean who wouldnt want those options as part of their health care plan for free, or have several risks removed from an active combat situation? And who wouldnt love to have Clem show up at their birthday party? We would in addition to that also have what I'd consider family to help us, like our crew along with Kahl and friends that are part of our camp family.

Wouldn't be alone? *looks at Topic title* you sure about that bud? you also lack the ability to make an automated army , unless you want to create sentient beings.

you would also need to be actively in those frames to use them cause spectres shoot everything that is not part of their faction and i have a distinct feeling that "friendly fire" will be on with very high possibility of collateral damage, or are you saying you will give some other people transferrence ability (thats bound to go smoothly)? or spend your whole time in a hospital healing the sick and the needy - gonna be spending a long long time doing that? in which case the scenario is not one tenno vs the world , its one tenno assisting the world. In which case i will just manipulate you though a motherly figure into doing things that i want you to do. Not like that hasnt before :P that is a back that is just waiting to be stabbed.

There is also no clem , you are alone with no one to talk to other than the mad cephalon and an infected room. Alone means alone , if you make alliances then the scenario has failed.

 

 

[Felsagger]

It's nice to play forum games about those 'what if'. 

 

Is it Warframe entertaining enough? Out of curiosity....:3

[SneakyErvin]

20 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So yes , in the scenario where the void is not present the only thing that goes back is a derelict ship. That is one possible scenario and gameover on arrival. Which i feel is a likely possibility , but that's just one possible scenario.

Another possible scenario is that the void does allow travel but it reduces the means of transference (same as when the heart was damaged) That also severely cripples the ability of tenno and frames (also likely).

And finally the Void allows full functionality and literally "bleeds" into the old world , in which case it would be reasonable to think there can be void storms created , and all the modifiers that apply to regular missions also apply here. Including the ability of enemy forces to gain resilience as time goes on ,i.e. enemies gain levels , yes? we will go with this scenario.

Any specters would need resources that will be used up over time , they would also not be as resilient or intelligent with a penchant to end up dead soon. Adding dispensary to every frame? sure , that could work if you really want to do that. But you need energy to cast it in the first place if you get causght at just the wrong time , then no more energy and no more abilities. Could probably take care of that with zenurilk free cast or energy siphon (if you can survive long enough), so yes that is one possible way to maintain self sustain.

I concede on that point :)

Hmm , yes the rail jack could move between regions relatively quickly i suppose. But since it doesnt have any extractors of its own , it will not be able to obtain any resources it cant smash in space. And barring titanium most of the resources needed are things we "scavenge" from caches and there would be no chance of getting these things. There is also the question of fuel. If the rail jack has fuel intake it needs fuel , usually provided from a dry dock. So where will you get compatible fuel from that can power the necessary functions? so no , railjack will be pretty useless in the past. Just as an EV will be pretty useless without a charging station. The reliquary drive is like the engine , but a craft is more than an engine.

Gas chamber with deadlocks and non visual sensors (pressure , temperature , trip wires ) with persistent toxin supply and magnets thrown in for good measure :P,

I really though that was a sentinel , we do have a number of those.

Wouldn't be alone? *looks at Topic title* you sure about that bud? you also lack the ability to make an automated army , unless you want to create sentient beings.

you would also need to be actively in those frames to use them cause spectres shoot everything that is not part of their faction and i have a distinct feeling that "friendly fire" will be on with very high possibility of collateral damage, or are you saying you will give some other people transferrence ability (thats bound to go smoothly)? or spend your whole time in a hospital healing the sick and the needy - gonna be spending a long long time doing that? in which case the scenario is not one tenno vs the world , its one tenno assisting the world. In which case i will just manipulate you though a motherly figure into doing things that i want you to do. Not like that hasnt before :P that is a back that is just waiting to be stabbed.

There is also no clem , you are alone with no one to talk to other than the mad cephalon and an infected room. Alone means alone , if you make alliances then the scenario has failed.

 

 

But neither of those scenarios are valid. Because none if it works that way. Wally hasnt happened in the past, so ripples from the void would not happen in the past, so scenario three wouldnt be possible. Albrecht needs to discover it to unleash Wally to begin with and as a future cause of that are the ripples across Sol. And scenario two would also not work, since we straight up need the heart. While the void is timeless, Deimos itself isnt and it is not resting in the Void either. Which means the only way for a scenario to get of the ground is by having it all with us. Since at that point we actually know the limitations, everything else would just be speculations on how it could be, but we cannot know since we dont have access to that knowledge.

Where do you have the knowledge from that specters need resources? Protea and Revenant aswell as others are perfectly fine after all the years that have passed between the old war and our awakening. So a single specter could in essence work until it dies from getting killed. And Warframes always replenish energy, otherwise we wouldnt start every mission with a starting pool based on "capacity strain". Preperation is also a good solution to this if needed, since PSF wont be a cheese mod because in a real setting self damage is very likely a thing.

No fuel in RJ, the engine is powered by the void. Which seems to power the rest of the ship aswell. We use void power to use the systems, draining our frames even.

How would earth know about WF weaknesses when not even the corpus or grineer do? I mean, you are currently in meta-GM cheese territory by applying your knowledge about the game instead of what the world would actually know.

OP said fully stocked, so that would imply we have access to everything upon departure from tennotime.

No, we wouldnt need to be in them. You need to stop thinking about game mechanic limitations. Think quest Protea, given a duty from Parvos, or even simple, junction guards. Just because the game A.I is limited it doesnt mean the specters would act like that in the real world.

Again, fully stocked according to OP.

[0_The_F00l]

48 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But neither of those scenarios are valid. Because none if it works that way. Wally hasnt happened in the past, so ripples from the void would not happen in the past, so scenario three wouldnt be possible. Albrecht needs to discover it to unleash Wally to begin with and as a future cause of that are the ripples across Sol. And scenario two would also not work, since we straight up need the heart. While the void is timeless, Deimos itself isnt and it is not resting in the Void either. Which means the only way for a scenario to get of the ground is by having it all with us. Since at that point we actually know the limitations, everything else would just be speculations on how it could be, but we cannot know since we dont have access to that knowledge.

*Buzzzz* wrong answer , if scenario 3 isnt possible then scenario 1 or 2 are the only valid options . If the void is not discovered then there is no means for doing anything that the tenno currently do as the tenno are conduits of the void - as according to you that is the source of all our energy. No void = no energy for all the things you talk about.

53 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Where do you have the knowledge from that specters need resources? Protea and Revenant aswell as others are perfectly fine after all the years that have passed between the old war and our awakening. So a single specter could in essence work until it dies from getting killed. And Warframes always replenish energy, otherwise we wouldnt start every mission with a starting pool based on "capacity strain". Preperation is also a good solution to this if needed, since PSF wont be a cheese mod because in a real setting self damage is very likely a thing.

i know that specters need resources From all the rescue missions i do that reward me the spectre BP and how i have to build them in the foundry. And i need to actively deploy a limited consumable in order for them to appear.

Warframes dont always replenish energy , it depends on how they are charged before leaving the ship and what mods and intrinsic ability they have (or dont have)

58 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No fuel in RJ, the engine is powered by the void. Which seems to power the rest of the ship aswell. We use void power to use the systems, draining our frames even.

Refer Cy quotes mentioning fuel intake systems. Fuel intake = fuel needs to be provided from external source = it is a resource that needs to be replenished

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

How would earth know about WF weaknesses when not even the corpus or grineer do? I mean, you are currently in meta-GM cheese territory by applying your knowledge about the game instead of what the world would actually know.

With time all is revealed , also "throw whatever we have until something sticks" is a tried and tested method :D

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

OP said fully stocked, so that would imply we have access to everything upon departure from tennotime.

i am not sure what you mean by this. A ship being stocked does not mean it has infinite space or is stocked for eternity , it is just at full capacity not that it has everything that you can pull out of your head or elsewhere. There is a limit to what all can be carried. and it will eventually run out over time.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

No, we wouldnt need to be in them. You need to stop thinking about game mechanic limitations. Think quest Protea, given a duty from Parvos, or even simple, junction guards. Just because the game A.I is limited it doesnt mean the specters would act like that in the real world.

Protea (technically the original frame with time bending ability and not a spectre strictly) - Attacks you the moment you arrive,

Junction guards - attacks you the moment you arrive.

So what is your point here exactly , sounds like i am right about what i am saying and the specters would perform exactly as they perform in game. There is no reason to believe they would act differently. You cant nitpick where it suits you and ignore things when they dont , it doesnt make a convincing debate, you are starting to bore me with these rabbits out of hats with obvious holes in them.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Again, fully stocked according to OP.

Fully stocked does not mean infinite capacity with every single personnel you can pull out of your address book. The OP lacking operational understanding of logistics does not make his claims more true than laws of physics and reality. One tenno = no allies.

You are free to disagree with me , but that invalidates the premise of the title.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

*Buzzzz* wrong answer , if scenario 3 isnt possible then scenario 1 or 2 are the only valid options . If the void is not discovered then there is no means for doing anything that the tenno currently do as the tenno are conduits of the void - as according to you that is the source of all our energy. No void = no energy for all the things you talk about.

i know that specters need resources From all the rescue missions i do that reward me the spectre BP and how i have to build them in the foundry. And i need to actively deploy a limited consumable in order for them to appear.

Warframes dont always replenish energy , it depends on how they are charged before leaving the ship and what mods and intrinsic ability they have (or dont have)

Refer Cy quotes mentioning fuel intake systems. Fuel intake = fuel needs to be provided from external source = it is a resource that needs to be replenished

With time all is revealed , also "throw whatever we have until something sticks" is a tried and tested method :D

i am not sure what you mean by this. A ship being stocked does not mean it has infinite space or is stocked for eternity , it is just at full capacity not that it has everything that you can pull out of your head or elsewhere. There is a limit to what all can be carried. and it will eventually run out over time.

Protea (technically the original frame with time bending ability and not a spectre strictly) - Attacks you the moment you arrive,

Junction guards - attacks you the moment you arrive.

So what is your point here exactly , sounds like i am right about what i am saying and the specters would perform exactly as they perform in game. There is no reason to believe they would act differently. You cant nitpick where it suits you and ignore things when they dont , it doesnt make a convincing debate, you are starting to bore me with these rabbits out of hats with obvious holes in them.

Fully stocked does not mean infinite capacity with every single personnel you can pull out of your address book. The OP lacking operational understanding of logistics does not make his claims more true than laws of physics and reality. One tenno = no allies.

You are free to disagree with me , but that invalidates the premise of the title.

No they arent, since they give us no actual ground of knowledge. The only thing we know is how things work when we have access to the void as represented in the game and what happens when the heart doesnt work. So the only scenario in order to move forward is if we have all that with us. Otherwise as I said there is no scenario, because at that point we make stuff up regarding how frames and tenno work.

Which the OP covered, the tenno have access to everything, a fully stocked orbiter. So we have everything built before we depart. So no upkeep needed. We might eventually run out if they get destroyed, but they are as durable as a frame on their own.

Warframes always recharge because you always start missions with a set amount of energy per frame and capacity to spare. With prep they start with full energy.

Fuel can mean anything, in this case the intake can simply be how the void from the drive is diverted elsewhere throughout the ship, to the engines etc. Because we know all railjacks were powered by a void drive, while we have had it improved to a reliquairy drive using the direct part of a potential void entity. We are afterall talking about something that was created thousands of years into the future by an extremely advanced civilization i.e the Orokin. A civilization that can terraform planets, have access to limited time alteration, can access a 4th dimension among other things.

Still not an actual tactic. It would take time before earth even realized what the threat was in such a case. And it isnt like earth has tech to actually hide their sensors, since the tenno still have access to scanners and passive radar capabilities. Things that can see enemies and objects through walls, and provides the tenno all information about the target aswell once scanned. And you mentioned magnets, what type of magnets? They'd have to use EMPs, which would screw up themselves aswell since we dont exactly have access to pinpoint small sized EMPs these days. Or are we gonna make things up regarding what earth has access to? Also, what would gas do? Gas =/= Toxin. While we can have toxic gas, that isnt the same as it being toxic in the sense of toxin damage within gameplay.

Of course fully stocked doesnt mean infinite anything. It just means we have everything to use when we get there. All frames, all weapons, a good amount of gear, mechs, archwings and so on. If things go really really bad we'll eventually run out of things like specters etc. But there must be a reason to run out. And it isnt like say we send a specter to area X and it gets destroyed and we just send another until we are empty.

According to the quest it is a specter of the actual Protea. And yes junction guards and protea attack us since that is their mission, to not let anyone in, we are tresspassers. They dont do it because of some random need to attack everything, they do it because it is their order. A specter spawned by the tenno would be spawned for the task we command them. So if we were to place a Citrine specter in say a hospital we'd order it to be there to heal the injured, that would be their order. Trinity, cure the sick. Or a Protea placed with armed forces, support them and lay down heavy fire on the enemy, potentially with a side directive for following the highest ranking officer aslong as no tenno gives another order. Because again, in the real world there wouldnt be gameplay limitations like "hold position" or "follow".

Of course fully stocked it doesnt mean that. But we arent talking every personnel either. We are talking about a limited crew living with us along with a normal WF arsenal at our disposal, which includes different forms of specters, mechs, omnitool, archguns, archwing, "strike" charges and so on. The problem is more that you seem to be of some mindset that as soon as something is used it is magically destroyed by some counter. And also that earth knows everything about what they possibly cant know. Not even the grineer or corpus know what we actually are, or how to counter us properly. And they've dealt with the tenno far more than earth, with people dating back to the orokin empire aswell and still lack vital knowledge. The queens were nearly there and still failed after more or less luring us into a trap, which also happens before we have the full potential of our powers unlocked. And Stalker, another WF, caught us of guard and struck us in our home and we still survived.

And I'm not saying the tenno wouldnt fail at times, it would just take alot to deplete their resources. Since the tenno just have so many tools at their disposal to allow for an insane amount of different approaches if they were to travel back for some reason. Plus game limitations that you still seem to account for would not be a thing, since this would be "real world" scenarios.