Newest Wave Of Incarnons Will Be Purchasable With Platinum

[Silligoose]

5 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Pay to rush is what you keep describing. Pay 2 win requires necessity, ultimate advantage and exclusivtivity of power items through a pay wall. MR growth, star chart clearance, quest clearance, and SP access are all gates that prevent platinum from being an advantage. In essence, you have to be a vet to even access Incarnon Genesis content. An f2p player can reach that point at the exact same rate or faster...and there's absolutely NOTHING progression wise in the game a plat player can get that is out of reach of an f2p player who could simply trade item for item to get.  So, no, there's no winning with purchasing. 

In regards to the Incarnon platinum purchase idea, Reb clearly asked for feedback when she discussed the idea and outright asked if she's pushing it. I personally think it's fine if done as Pablo wants it but I will be watching out for their decision.

We discussed p2w in another thread and you came to the conclusion that this game has p2w elements yourself. You said as much in your discussion with PublikDomain. "Pay 2 skip,","pay 2 progress" and now "pay 2 rush" all describe p2w models. The additional parameters you've arbitrarily decided to add are not prerequisites for a game being p2w.

DE is going to do whatever they feel like doing and they seemingly tend to base those decisions on analytics. Whatever decision DE decides to make will invariably have people who agree with the decision and people who disagree, which means regardless of the decision they make, they can claim to have "listened to feedback", even if that feedback represents 5% of the community's sentiment.

[Felsagger]

5 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

 

Terms such as "pay2progress and "pay2skip" are terms used in lieu of p2w in an attempt to move a p2w game away from the stigma associated with the term p2w. I've come across it for over a decade now. I've seen it used by devs/publishers of certain p2w games, such as EA or Kixeye for that very reason, whilst also trying to obfuscate the business model and of course some fans of certain games cling to whatever replacement term is used, because they do not want to admit the game they enjoy has p2w elements or is p2w.

That is a deeply interesting topic. I know that P2W looks very accusatory because it throws DE on the red. They are at the same moral levels of EA and Activision. I think DE had a good PR apparatus to dissuade the bad reputation the P2W model bring in to their name. 

I wonder where these terms comes from and where they were originated. I think China has a lot to do with this market if I'm not mistaken. Pay to win models are EXTREMELY Popular in Asia. 

5 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I agree with your assessment regarding DE's approach to monetization and their reliance on analytics when it comes to decision-making. We've heard them touch on the subject in some devstreams or social media, where they discuss balance changes, strongly focussing on usage/popularity as a reason for the nerfs/buffs instead of strongly focussing on something that matters when it comes to balance, such as asset performance. We see the impact of analytics not only in decisions discussed, but it is all over the place in the game. People may question why certain resources/assets on the Market are priced what they are - because it makes money. Credits are sold in a package of 50k for 25 plat, because people buy it at that price. That price point is no accident and is the result of analytics. Keeping the game p2p 

I believe a greater focus on intrinsic play, retention of veterans and options regarding difficulty to serve the varied spectrum of players would serve the game well in the long run as well and I also have the concern that the game is being dumbed down for the mobile market. 

At the end of the day it seems DE's decisions are largely based on analytics, not actual player feedback, however, they will cite player as backing for their decisions, since there will invariably be people who agree with whatever they decide to do.

 

You perfectly resumed how DE works. DE will never design around player feedback ever. It is all about the probability and statistics of use and how the users react to this Rube Goldberg Pachinko machine. 

For better or worse we already know that DE decisions are based on estimates and market behavior. Quality of the game, intrinsics and asset values are on a second plane. DE always study their ROI always. DE developed an amazing analytical apparatus for the collection of their data. Their decisions are way too informed based on classical analytical algorithms processing this data generated by the users. It's something you already know. 

[Felsagger]

3 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

We discussed p2w in another thread and you came to the conclusion that this game has p2w elements yourself. You said as much in your discussion with PublikDomain. "Pay 2 skip,","pay 2 progress" and now "pay 2 rush" all describe p2w models. The additional parameters you've arbitrarily decided to add are not prerequisites for a game being p2w.

DE is going to do whatever they feel like doing and they seemingly tend to base those decisions on analytics. Whatever decision DE decides to make will invariably have people who agree with the decision and people who disagree, which means regardless of the decision they make, they can claim to have "listened to feedback", even if that feedback represents 5% of the community's sentiment.

The order of concepts that you chose in that bold sentence makes more sense in my head. I can see somehow the "clean sequencing" on these concepts. I think the general term here is P2W. The other terms are sub topics of the P2W main topic. 

Pay to skip

Pay to progress

Pay to rush 

These three resumes perfectly DE's market model. Comes to mind the concept of Forma, The Riven, and the time skip on getting the items. 

[Hypernaut1]

I feel like I'm fortunate to be one who actually enjoys playing Warframe and look forward to having reasons to play and earn new content.

My biggest gripe is the power jump without challenging content to go with it. Incarnons are starting to make the most difficult content feel like the starchart. 

This also means that new weapons will soon have to be as powerful as incarnons at base or feel pointless. The incarnons aren't just small buffs, it's a whole new class of power. 

I think the power creep is the most dangerous thing to the game, but people are arguing over plat purchases? 

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Terms such as "pay2progress and "pay2skip" are terms used in lieu of p2w in an attempt to move a p2w game away from the stigma associated with the term p2w. 

Nope that is not true.

P2Skip, P2Progress, P4Conveniance and so on came along first in games with options similar or identical to those in WF, we are even talking text based games here. Not until later down the line was P2W coined, when the previous acronyms were no longer able to cover the monetization of a game. And at first P2W was coined to describe PvP and competative games where you could pay for significant power and advantages over other players. Where P2Skip and P2Progress could turn into P2W due to the game having a clear competative aspect between players.

WF doesnt have a competative aspect, it doesnt have a clear power progression path either, weapon A that is "hard" to get and also purchasable with plat isnt automatically better than weapon B that is practically free to get with no real work involved. Just look at some trivial things like Kuva weapons, Torid, Furis, OG incarnons and so on, accessible for free with no way to purchase them for plat, they are also some of the strongest weapons in the game overall. There is no way for anyone to pay to "win" over a person that owns those weapons, which everyone can for that matter, without doing anything really.

Then when it comes to genesis adapters, they are guaranteed loot from doing a few runs of circuit each week, content you'll very likely do eitherways for other rewards at the same time. Then since there is no clear power progression path, there is no guarantee those weapons will be more powerful than anything you own out of the non-purchasable adapters. So you dont win anything, you skip something, potentially pay for conveniance since you dont really like circuit, or you just pay to rob yourself of content.

[Silligoose]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope that is not true.

P2Skip, P2Progress, P4Conveniance and so on came along first in games with options similar or identical to those in WF, we are even talking text based games here. Not until later down the line was P2W coined, when the previous acronyms were no longer able to cover the monetization of a game. And at first P2W was coined to describe PvP and competative games where you could pay for significant power and advantages over other players. Where P2Skip and P2Progress could turn into P2W due to the game having a clear competative aspect between players.

WF doesnt have a competative aspect, it doesnt have a clear power progression path either, weapon A that is "hard" to get and also purchasable with plat isnt automatically better than weapon B that is practically free to get with no real work involved. Just look at some trivial things like Kuva weapons, Torid, Furis, OG incarnons and so on, accessible for free with no way to purchase them for plat, they are also some of the strongest weapons in the game overall. There is no way for anyone to pay to "win" over a person that owns those weapons, which everyone can for that matter, without doing anything really.

Then when it comes to genesis adapters, they are guaranteed loot from doing a few runs of circuit each week, content you'll very likely do eitherways for other rewards at the same time. Then since there is no clear power progression path, there is no guarantee those weapons will be more powerful than anything you own out of the non-purchasable adapters. So you dont win anything, you skip something, potentially pay for conveniance since you dont really like circuit, or you just pay to rob yourself of content.

These are blatant lies pertaining to p2skip, p2progress and p4convenience. We've gone through this whole exercise before I where cite source after source after source and give example after example after example in Warframe that shows it is p2w, but you keep trying to add parameters to the definition that has no bearing on whether something is p2w, trying to change the narrative, so you can pretend Warframe doesn't make use of that business model, all so you can tell yourself you don't support p2w games.

Here you are again making the same inaccurate statements, like saying "WF doesn't have a competitive aspect", to which I reply, just like before:

• "Conclave is PvP. That is an example of WF having a competitive aspect.
• Some activities have leaderboards. That is an example of WF having a competitive aspect.
• Third party website are used by players to log their speedruns. That is an example of WF having a competitive aspect.

I'm sure, just like before, you are ready to type out "oh but not a lot of people play Conclave so it doesn't count because arbitrary reasons and not many pay attention to leaderboards and you don't win prizes so it doesn't count oh and blah blah blah...". It was funny at the start, then it became sad.

A game is considered p2w when a player can gain an advantage over non-paying peers. In Warframe, that advantage is not having to grind as much, skipping the grind altogether, not having to wait due to timegates etc.

If you don't get it, you don't get.

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I feel like I'm fortunate to be one who actually enjoys playing Warframe and look forward to having reasons to play and earn new content.

My biggest gripe is the power jump without challenging content to go with it. Incarnons are starting to make the most difficult content feel like the starchart. 

This also means that new weapons will soon have to be as powerful as incarnons at base or feel pointless. The incarnons aren't just small buffs, it's a whole new class of power. 

I think the power creep is the most dangerous thing to the game, but people are arguing over plat purchases? 

Power creep is a massive issue in this game. Thing is, being able to purchase power with real world money makes the game fit the description of p2w very well. A lot of people aren't too concerned, since Warframe is mainly played PvE.

What players forget is the p2w business model can affect many aspect of the game even if it was only PvE. It can affect grinds, with devs inflating grinds for the sake of encouraging people to want to skip it. It can lead to decisions to implement timegates and it can contribute to power creep: devs want to incentivise buying the newest shiny so they make it a little stronger. They may go so far as to nerf whatever used to be the strongest/most popular in order to encourage players to get the new thing. Look at changes in balance to Warframe: One of the ways AoE was nerfed was by way of ammo changes. Now we have Incarnon Genesis Adapters that turn weapons in AoE where ammo is far less of a concern.

I don't mind Warframe using the p2w business model, but I think it is important for players to recognize it, so they can recognize how it may affect various aspects of the game.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I feel like I'm fortunate to be one who actually enjoys playing Warframe and look forward to having reasons to play and earn new content.

My biggest gripe is the power jump without challenging content to go with it. Incarnons are starting to make the most difficult content feel like the starchart. 

This also means that new weapons will soon have to be as powerful as incarnons at base or feel pointless. The incarnons aren't just small buffs, it's a whole new class of power. 

I think the power creep is the most dangerous thing to the game, but people are arguing over plat purchases? 

Perfect example of "smart people" that need to go outside. 

Whatever definition of p2w they make up doesn't matter. 

It's like arguing over if Pluto is a planet or not: it's really not important and won't affect your life even if you decide on a definition.

[Hypernaut1]

56 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Perfect example of "smart people" that need to go outside. 

Whatever definition of p2w they make up doesn't matter. 

It's like arguing over if Pluto is a planet or not: it's really not important and won't affect your life even if you decide on a definition.

I don't think it's p2w. I think "paying" to not play the game is silly. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

I don't think it's p2w. I think "paying" to not play the game is silly. 

And for some, you enjoy the game and play to a point where you end up barely using plat because you know how to get something in a decent amount of time. 

[Felsagger]

Games are not supposed to be a second job. They are labeled as ENTERTAINMENT. 

Let us begin with the foundation of COMMON SENSE. 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

Just look at the requirements for entry:

-Complete every Quest, getting to Angel's of Zariman, getting to Cavalero.

- Get the required MR to use the weapon.

- Unlock the Steel Path to farm The Circuit on Steel Path.

The ONLY way you could consider it P2W is if your purchase bypasses ALL OF THAT  and grants you immediate access to it, along with SP, bypasses all the quest and MR requirements.

That's just not happening here.

I mean if I started a new game today, I could buy Gauss and have him before I even get to Disruption on Sedna, where hes farmed.

Buying Gauss was never a problem, but the second they add Incarnon Adapters as purchaseable it's time to get the pitch forks out?

Makes literally no sense. I'd honestly say buying a Warframe has more impact then buying an Incarnon at that point considering what's required of you to even get to that point right?

[(XBOX)ONI LawIiet]

incarnons are THE reward for playing circuit.

if you can buy the reward

why play?

[ShogunGunshow]

26 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I don't think it's p2w. I think "paying" to not play the game is silly. 

And yet a lot of people do it, especially when 1) they want something, 2) it's powerful, and 3) the devs arbitrarily decide to gate it off with time-locks.

In the past, this is absolutely something DE would have just made easier/more convenient to acquire in game. Now you just pull out your wallet for DE and bypass Steel Path Circuit. 

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

Power creep is a massive issue in this game. Thing is, being able to purchase power with real world money makes the game fit the description of p2w very well. A lot of people aren't too concerned, since Warframe is mainly played PvE.

What players forget is the p2w business model can affect many aspect of the game even if it was only PvE. It can affect grinds, with devs inflating grinds for the sake of encouraging people to want to skip it. It can lead to decisions to implement timegates and it can contribute to power creep: devs want to incentivise buying the newest shiny so they make it a little stronger. They may go so far as to nerf whatever used to be the strongest/most popular in order to encourage players to get the new thing. Look at changes in balance to Warframe: One of the ways AoE was nerfed was by way of ammo changes. Now we have Incarnon Genesis Adapters that turn weapons in AoE where ammo is far less of a concern.

I don't mind Warframe using the p2w business model, but I think it is important for players to recognize it, so they can recognize how it may affect various aspects of the game.

This is why Warframe feels like a second job. Correct. 

The psychology of this game revolves around Pay to skip, Pay to rush, Pay to progress and pay for convenience. This is the STICK AND CARROT system of the game. People MUST recognize the Rube Goldberg Pachinko machine and understand how the business model works. 

The system that DE proposes is clearly acceptable under Canadian Law. This is a business model like any other. However the critique here is that such business model hampers the quality of the game in the strict definition of what a game is in classical terms. 

The project Warframe reduces to a VANITY PROJECT due to this approach. Designing a project of this nature compromises factors that are quotidianly seen in other great games. Due to this system the game suffers. 

Yes, this vanity project contains a successful business model but a downfall on game development. The name of the developer is irrelevant because this approach may affect the best developer in the market. There are many examples in the list of offenders. 343i tried but failed. Bungie tried but ended with 50/50 results. Now they return to ONI under the umbrella of Sony. 

Warframe SURVIVED ten years gravitating on this successful model where the developer skips the renovation of titles such as Warframe 2, Warframe 3 and all the publishing advertisements. The business model doesn't represent a problem for multi platform titles since the project accommodates the weakest platforms such as IOS phones. This happened due to the success of the market model DE proposed. This market model was and still is POPULAR IN ASIATIC countries. 

Should I reject what the project offer? Where I stand as a player. "To play or not to play". Well, if the market offers me great WARFRAME like experiences such as Titanfall 2 and Armored Core 6 Fires of the Rubicon then I'll navigate my boat towards those titles instead of Warframe. The series of Horizon Forbidden West, Frozen Wilds, Horizon Zero Dawn and Burning Shores gave me a good taste of other aspects that I enjoyed in Warframe. Let not forget the great boss battles made by From Software. 

Now Final Fantasy 16 provides a better approach in the PS5. It's strange that FF16 makes the NUMBER game more interesting with a true dynamical system. when we talk about the boss fights. 

Yes, DE, plugged a system that works as an economic model perfectly but is highly questionable for game design, quality delivery, and upgrade development. All their attempts will gravitate around the orbit of their business model as expected. In the end Warframe becomes an AVERAGE game in strict terms. It's not bad, it's not good, just average. 

[Felsagger]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)ONI LawIiet said:

incarnons are THE reward for playing circuit.

if you can buy the reward

why play?

Correct. 

This is how the common sense of a normal adjusted person works. We are not even considering smart individuals in this conversation. We are simply talking about the normal people who makes use of reason. 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)ONI LawIiet said:

incarnons are THE reward for playing circuit.

if you can buy the reward

why play?

It's 2 rewards with 10 tiers. And that's if you also don't complete the tiers after 10 to get additional rewards which are generally arcanes.

So buying the Incarnons doesn't unlock every other tier for you. So there's still reason to play it. 

I don't see an issue having them purchasable with Platinum when you can bypass entire planets or ESO in Khoras case by purchasing a warframe you want.

[Felsagger]

Excuses. 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

2 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Excuses. 

For what exactly? 

So buying Khora is OK but it's not when DE adds Incarnon Adapoters in the store? 

That makes total sense. 

[Felsagger]

If the intention is to make people play then leave them as pure rewards. 

If the intention is to sell then make available the whole repertoire at once with a purchase cap. 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

25 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

If the intention is to make people play then leave them as pure rewards. 

If the intention is to sell then make available the whole repertoire at once with a purchase cap. 

Considering that Warframes and Primes are also apart of the market that I can purchase Day 1 of playing, Incarnons are a non issue.

Being able to purchase a Warframe Id argue has a lot more impact on the player. 

Khora would be a great example. Day 1 I could purchase her and not have to farm her in ESO. 

Or Mesa. Or Ash. Or Hildryn. 

Vs an Incarnon Adapoter that requires hundreds of hours of playtime, MR requirements, All Quests and completing the entire Star-Chart to unlock the opportunity to even sniff them. 

I mean the difference is staggering. Offering the Adapters is really no different then a Warframe/Weapon currently in the game market. 

And I don't have the time each week to play Circut. So for me, the convince of getting it with plat....is great for me when I'm personally never hurting for platinum in the first place.

And if the store only reflects either the current or previous rotation only: Great. We don't need all 35 incarnons active in the store anyway, so that works.

That's a great middle ground.

[MouadSaqui]

I really don't wanna hear it, It's not like DE is broke and need money, They knew exactly what they were doing to this game and they did it anyway, Warframe is no longer a game by the community for the community, right now Warframe feels like a true tencent game. So I really don't wanna hear excuses this time.

[kamisama85]

We are 7 pages into this discussion, but why has discussion completely omitted that you are paying plat for just the incarnon adapters and not straight up the entire weapon?

1. You are buying just an adapter. You still need the weapon. You will have to craft it or acquire it accordingly. That takes time and resource.
2. You have to meet the requirements for the weapon MR levels to acquire or trade since these are not MR bypass weapons like lich/sister weapons.
3. You can't even install the adapter without talking to Cavalero. Which means you have to complete all the content in between before you can even get there.
4. Nobody knows their weapon performance relative to the current incarnons. Nothing but speculation on how good they are to justify the intensity of the p2w argument.

2 Primaries, 2 Secondaries, and 1 Melee accordingly:

• Gorgon (MR 3 with BP)
• Gorgon Wraith (MR 7 and RNG from Invasions)
• Gorgon Prisma (MR 11 and purchase from players or Baro)
   
• Boar (MR 2 with BP)
• Boar Prime (MR 11)
   
• Gammacor (MR 2 with BP)
• Synoid Gammacor (MR 7 and Syndicate Standing for Cephalon Suda Max Rank)
   
• Angstrum (MR 4 with BP)
• Prisma Angstrum (MR 8 and purchase from players or Baro)
   
• Anku (MR 3 with BP)

This entire thread has gone off the deep end tangent with such a reaction to paying plat for something. Nobody is stopping to see the reality of what that purchase actually looks like, instead jumping to the conclusion that DE is just out to get you time and again. This exaggerated response to something that is literally standard across the industry is ridiculous. 

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, MouadSaqui said:

I really don't wanna hear it, It's not like DE is broke and need money, They knew exactly what they were doing to this game and they did it anyway, Warframe is no longer a game by the community for the community, right now its a Warframe feels like a true tencent game. So I really don't wanna hear excuses this time.

When was this game ever BY the community?  It's always been a game by DE developer made for a profit.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

23 minutes ago, MouadSaqui said:

I really don't wanna hear it, It's not like DE is broke and need money, They knew exactly what they were doing to this game and they did it anyway, Warframe is no longer a game by the community for the community, right now its a Warframe feels like a true tencent game. So I really don't wanna hear excuses this time.

It's really not though....

If the farm was unreasonable and it's exclusive to only being accessed through platinum, then it would be and I would agree with you but ultimately it's not.

It's not being forced upon you at all. It's simply for convince. 

There's warframes in the in-game market that have existed for years that would meet that criteria more then any Incarnon Adaptor. 

I mean if I can skip Khora's farm in ESO or Baruuk's acquisition through Little Duck, is it really THAT big a deal? 

Some people just don't have the time every week to do the 4hour commitment to get the incarnons. 

Sure you can buy them now but I still would miss every other reward in The Cicuit that's also worth getting.

10 minutes ago, kamisama85 said:

We are 7 pages into this discussion, but why has discussion completely omitted that you are paying plat for just the incarnon adapters and not straight up the entire weapon?

1. You are buying just an adapter. You still need the weapon. You will have to craft it or acquire it accordingly. That takes time and resource.
2. You have to meet the requirements for the weapon MR levels to acquire or trade since these are not MR bypass weapons like lich/sister weapons.
3. You can't even install the adapter without talking to Cavalero. Which means you have to complete all the content in between before you can even get there.
4. Nobody knows their weapon performance relative to the current incarnons. Nothing but speculation on how good they are to justify the intensity of the p2w argument.

2 Primaries, 2 Secondaries, and 1 Melee accordingly:

• Gorgon (MR 3 with BP)
• Gorgon Wraith (MR 7 and RNG from Invasions)
• Gorgon Prisma (MR 11 and purchase from players or Baro)
   
• Boar (MR 2 with BP)
• Boar Prime (MR 11)
   
• Gammacor (MR 2 with BP)
• Synoid Gammacor (MR 7 and Syndicate Standing for Cephalon Suda Max Rank)
   
• Angstrum (MR 4 with BP)
• Prisma Angstrum (MR 8 and purchase from players or Baro)
   
• Anku (MR 3 with BP)

This entire thread has gone off the deep end tangent with such a reaction to paying plat for something. Nobody is stopping to see the reality of what that purchase actually looks like, instead jumping to the conclusion that DE is just out to get you time and again. This exaggerated response to something that is literally standard across the industry is ridiculous. 

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^