Discussion: Frames vulnerable while in Operator.

[trst]

23 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

I'm going to ask this again, because I didn't get an answer from anyone:

 

WHAT, exactly, were people "cheese farming" while sitting in Void Mode?

Specifically.

 

This is the discussion's current question.

  You already got your answer:

9 hours ago, trst said:

And the things players farm by employing AKF strategies is literally everything that can drop out of enemies (resources, mods, affinity, focus, etc) while often also farming endless mission rewards. The issues with this should be very obvious.

There is no "specific" answer because it's literally anything that drops from enemies or the mission could be farmed in that way.

But a more concrete example would be how players used to AFK farm SP using Wukong. Take a overpowered enough AOE weapon, throw your clone out, and sit invulnerable or in a corner out of sight of enemies, and only tab back to the game to reset the AFK detection or recast the clone if it somehow died.

 

In case you need me to be more specific than that: AFK farming SP means Steel Essence, Steel Essence means Kuva, Kuva means Riven rerolling, good Riven rolls meant easy plat on the player market. Mind you this is all part of why Wukong, AOE weapons, and the SP shop were nerfed.

And if DE was willing to take the backlash those changes resulted in without budging you can be sure that they won't want to change a rather old mechanic in a way that has even a chance of enabling more AFK strategies.

[4thBro]

7 hours ago, trst said:

There is no "specific" answer because it's literally anything that drops from enemies or the mission could be farmed in that way.

So, when I sarcastically said "Rubedo," that was unironically the answer? Lol.

 

In short, they're farming resources that 1) have no impact on the platinum market, and 2) resources that most players have in mass just from playing the game normally.

 

If you really step back and look at it, it's - well, it's actually exactly as someone else already put it. "People using the best method to farm." (Granted, it certainly wasn't THAT, by a long shot, but let's just press onward with that presumption.) That being said, there will always be a best method. Do we just keep nerfing the best method until there's just no more methods and things are unfarmable? Really look at what you yourselves are saying here in this thread.

 

What do you care if someone farmed tons of Rubedo by sitting in Void Mode?

- Can you really not outfarm somebody doing this by playing actively? (How are they pushing AHEAD of you with this?)

- Does it affect you in any way, what they're able to farm and how they do it? (And in the same token, does the "fix" to them doing this affect you? Spoiler: These answers are No and then Yes, in that order.)

- Why does it matter if somebody chooses to play in a boring way and then stops playing the game because of it? EVERY game has this. And every game will always have this. There's no way to force people to play in a way that will objectively keep them interested and engaged, and there are many reasons for this that I shouldn't have to go into.

 

Okay, so the "specific" answer to what people are farming is... resources that drop off enemies, and infinite game mode rewards. None of these have any value whatsoever. Maybe... Condition Overload used to, I guess, but that's all I can really think of.

 

My next specific question:

What was the strategy? Specifically. What was the setup? One guy plays Frame A, while the other three people play Frames B C and D? What are the Frames? Guide me through the playstyle, step by step. So you say 3 people sit in Void Mode forever, but you can't do that forever, so what do they do while recovering Operator energy? In what way was this strategy super effective compared to 4 people actively playing? I want specifics, because without specifics, it's just hearsay, "This was super good, trust me."

 

I've heard multiple times in this thread, "Frame vulnerability isn't too bad, just find a place to hide your Frame while you go Operator."

But the very same thing can be said about these AFK buffers. You say they "abused Frame invuln while camping Void Mode," but if hiding your Frame works so well, allegedly anyway, then why couldn't the AFK buffers just buff their teammates and hide somewhere safe for the time being? Maybe we need to nerf hiding?

Maybe we should just remove all team buffs!!

 

(Do you see where I'm going with ANY of this?)

[4thBro]

8 hours ago, trst said:

In case you need me to be more specific than that: AFK farming SP means Steel Essence, Steel Essence means Kuva, Kuva means Riven rerolling, good Riven rolls meant easy plat on the player market. Mind you this is all part of why Wukong, AOE weapons, and the SP shop were nerfed.

Honestly, though, yes, I do need more specific.

What specific ability can you turn on, and it kills Steel Path enemies faster than an active player can? (lol)

 

Yes, let's pretend Frames are invuln on Operator. Okay, you throw on all the Strength possible. Let's even pretend all abilities have 0 energy cost. YOU KNOW WHAT, let's pretend you have 10,000% Ability Strength.

 

What ability is this?

What ability kills SP enemies faster than the average player can with a Nu'ub Kannin Tenet Arca Plasmor?

 

Because, keep in mind, these Void Mode Campers aren't ACTUALLY afk. They're still there, at their computer, managing their Operator energy, buffing on a timer, etc etc, they're still doing things, lmao. So, the point with that is that it's not like the player is going to work, coming home 8 hours later and they have +200 Steel Essences because the Acolytes couldn't stand a chance against this Super Amazing Mystery Ability that also creates Life Support in your pocket every 10 seconds and costs 0 Energy.

 

It's just such a weird-ass complaint, man. All this resistance in this thread is honestly surprising, weird, and kind of Twilight Zoney, if I'm being honest.

I dunno, dude.

It's weird.

I just want to play Void Cascade on Mirage, LMAO, that's one of the biggest things that sparked my creation of this discussion thread. And no, it's not viable to "find a safe place to park Mirage" every time I have to handle the main objective. That's totally ludicrous to even suggest, honestly. Maybe I'll just ask the Cascade timer to stop and wait for me while I parallel park every 25 seconds.

[0_The_F00l]

10 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

.

I just want to play Void Cascade on Mirage, LMAO, that's one of the biggest things that sparked my creation of this discussion thread. And no, it's not viable to "find a safe place to park Mirage" every time I have to handle the main objective. That's totally ludicrous to even suggest, honestly. Maybe I'll just ask the Cascade timer to stop and wait for me while I parallel park every 25 seconds.

I think you are the exact player that this mechanic is intended for.

[4thBro]

11 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I think you are the exact player that this mechanic is intended for.

???

Because I'm trying to play Mirage, and when Void Cascade forces me into Operator mode, my Frame dies?

 

Now I'm some kind of player that deserves to be punished? For... ... trying to play Mirage, I guess??? Or... what, exactly?

 

Mirage buffs don't even buff other players, lmao. (Unless you augment for Eclipse, which I don't, and maybe the game should check for that or something??? Maybe??? Before punishing me??? Also, Hall of Mirrors makes me vulnerable, and that NEVER buffs allied players???)

 

Like, you just threw out this total zero-accountability flame post. Care to elaborate on what you meant, there?? Lol.

Edited July 25, 2023 by 4thBro

[0_The_F00l]

2 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

???

Because I'm trying to play Mirage, and when Void Cascade forces me into Operator mode, my Frame dies?

 

Now I'm some kind of player that deserves to be punished? For... ... trying to play Mirage, I guess??? Or... what, exactly?

Yes , the player that wants to play mirage and not use her actively is to be punished for their heresy.

[4thBro]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Yes , the player that wants to play mirage and not use her actively is to be punished for their heresy.

Void Cascade!!

 

You HAVE to go Operator for the mission objective.

[0_The_F00l]

Just now, 4thBro said:

Void Cascade!!

 

You HAVE to go Operator for the mission objective.

Sounds like a Skill issue to me.

[taiiat]

19 hours ago, 4thBro said:

How in the actual universe is popping into Operator for a Zenurik rebuff and dealing zero damage for 1.5 seconds just as annoying as popping into Operator for a Zenurik rebuff and DYING? Come on, man.

if your Warframe dies in a Second or two of an additional 90%DR on top of w/e their EHP already is, while their Abilities are still active, then you would be dying even faster while you're in your Warframe and you don't have the free 90%DR.

 

12 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Because I'm trying to play Mirage, and when Void Cascade forces me into Operator mode, my Frame dies?

ah, if it's like unmodded Mirage sort of EHP, and were normally relying entirely on Parkour to survive, it'll be rough for sure.

it's a preventative measure blanketed to everything "just in case, to be on the safe side", so to speak. as it then covers all current and future Abilities.
also has a side effect of making Players put more weight into having some EHP, as some Warframes will need to if they have to be stationary for a significant amount of time.

[4thBro]

33 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Sounds like a Skill issue to me.

I think I'm being trolled.

 

13 minutes ago, taiiat said:

if your Warframe dies in a Second or two of an additional 90%DR on top of w/e their EHP already is, while their Abilities are still active, then you would be dying even faster while you're in your Warframe and you don't have the free 90%DR.

 

ah, if it's like unmodded Mirage sort of EHP, and were normally relying entirely on Parkour to survive, it'll be rough for sure.

it's a preventative measure blanketed to everything "just in case, to be on the safe side", so to speak. as it then covers all current and future Abilities.
also has a side effect of making Players put more weight into having some EHP, as some Warframes will need to if they have to be stationary for a significant amount of time.

90% DR isn't anything on its own. Level 1000+ enemies kill you through that with a single shot, and, hell, a level 200 Thrax will one-shot you through that, too.

It's not "unmodded EHP," it's shield gating survival, which obviously can't be done while in Operator. Mirage, along with MOST Frames in this game, can't build Health survival that allows you to live against high level enemies. Mirage has no inherent survival to speak of (since Eclipse isn't survival to speak of), so going off of mods alone (and a single Helminth, with Null Star being the beefiest survival possible through it, while also being inconsistent) isn't going to cut it.

 

I'm legitimately assuming most people in here are either Normal Moders, or Extract At 5'ers, and that's fine & all, but don't tell me that it's a "skill issue" that Mirage can't facetank enemies while my Operator deals with Void Cascade objectives every ~20 seconds.

 

I actually think I'm being trolled. I'll take a step back from this thread for a bit, lol.

[(NSW)Greybones]

So is the idea that you should be invincible in unbalanced Steel Path, the build-killing low-option game mode that will always be lower in build and playstyle variety than the standard game due to its nature and what it’s for…?

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, 4thBro said:

I think I'm being trolled.

You are free to think as you want , does not change the reality.

2 hours ago, 4thBro said:

90% DR isn't anything on its own. Level 1000+ enemies kill you through that with a single shot, and, hell, a level 200 Thrax will one-shot you through that, too.

It's not "unmodded EHP," it's shield gating survival, which obviously can't be done while in Operator. Mirage, along with MOST Frames in this game, can't build Health survival that allows you to live against high level enemies. Mirage has no inherent survival to speak of (since Eclipse isn't survival to speak of), so going off of mods alone (and a single Helminth, with Null Star being the beefiest survival possible through it, while also being inconsistent) isn't going to cut it.

 

I'm legitimately assuming most people in here are either Normal Moders, or Extract At 5'ers, and that's fine & all, but don't tell me that it's a "skill issue" that Mirage can't facetank enemies while my Operator deals with Void Cascade objectives every ~20 seconds.

 

I actually think I'm being trolled. I'll take a step back from this thread for a bit, lol.

Sure feels like someone is trolling in this thread if you are expecting effortless results at level 1000.

I retract my previous statements , it's not a skill issue , it feels more like a lack of common sense at this point.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, 4thBro said:

It's not "unmodded EHP," it's shield gating survival, which obviously can't be done while in Operator.

same difference as relying on Parkour, for these purposes. 

in Endurance People have always had to come up with alternative creative answers to the problems presented, hasn't really ever changed, save for some specific exceptions along those Years.

[4thBro]

49 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

So is the idea that you should be invincible in unbalanced Steel Path, the build-killing low-option game mode that will always be lower in build and playstyle variety than the standard game due to its nature and what it’s for…?

Nothing in Steel Path is even challenging, if you play casually. As long as you "extract at 5" (or whatever the equivalent), enemies never got strong, and the only thing that happened is you got some extra rewards. In my OWN opinion, players should default SP so that they get to enjoy the fun of planning some kind of build that at least cares a little bit. Normal Mode missions are like... you can practically go in with 8x ele mods for no reason whatsoever, and you'll absolutely dominate. How is that fun? Don't you at least want to feel like you designed something good?

And, I mean - maybe not, lol. Maybe that's just a Me thing.

 

Anyway...

 

16 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Sure feels like someone is trolling in this thread if you are expecting effortless results at level 1000.

I retract my previous statements , it's not a skill issue , it feels more like a lack of common sense at this point.

You keep saying things like "effortless results," and "I don't think a player should be invulnerable."

But let's try to keep this fallacy-free, please. Those are obviously strawman arguments. It's not like the players are invulnerable. That's an intentionally-misleading statement. Nobody is zipping around in a Warframe, blasting things for 20 million DPS in an AoE, all while invulnerable, now, are they?

No. If they're invulnerable, they're sitting there, idle, literally doing nothing at all.

 

For the 100th time... Please, tell me what crazy strong ability can be left enabled on a would-be invulnerable Warframe that can kill level 1000+ enemies in a timely manner.

Please. Please. Tell me. If you're unable to tell me, and decide to just frisbee the next fallacy at my forehead, then just know that we'll all see it being done in plain sight.

 

This back & forth with the fallacies has really killed the discussion. I hate that conversations can never be held because of that.

[4thBro]

3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

same difference as relying on Parkour, for these purposes. 

in Endurance People have always had to come up with alternative creative answers to the problems presented, hasn't really ever changed, save for some specific exceptions along those Years.

Yeah, that's great. I've also "come up with alternative creative answers," but some things don't have an answer. Mods and 1 Helminth ability can only do so much. The core Frame still needs to cover holes of its own.

 

Okay, let's build a Mirage tanky.

- Arcane Blessing, easy big HP. (Although HP is the single least important defensive factor, but having a buffer amount is nice.)

- Yolo, let's say Arcane Ultimatum, we'll play Naramon for reliable finishers. (Or maybe Bronco, whatever.)

- Hell, let's also say Health Conversion. (And with this and Arcane Blessing going on, we're going to magically pretend Health Orbs are flowing in just fine, even though that's far from the reality in a natural setting without a way of forcing them to drop.)

- Adaptation, of course.

- Now for a creative touch, and extra layer of a defensive multiplier, let's go Quick Thinking. We'll put Flow, and we'll put Gladi Finesse, too. We'll do Pain Threshold for the exilus.

- What to Helminth? Normally, due to the Quick Thinking, I might say we go Nourish and Zenurik. However, we've already asked a genie to grant us a good supply of Health Orbs. So we'll say we also don't run into Energy issues, and we'll go straight to Null Star for ANOTHER big layer of a defensive multiplier.

 

So let's take a look at what we have on Mirage!

- 2725 armor, which is roughly 90% reduction.

- Quick Thinking + Gladi Fine, which is 66% reduction (if your energy is being hit).

- Adaptation, which is up to 90%.

- Null Star, which is up to 90%.

- And, of course, Eclipse, which is up to 95% reduction. (We asked our genie for a 3rd wish of having ability strength. With a build like this, god knows where we have the time to also get strength, range, efficiency, and duration, but that's what the genie is for! By the way, Null Star needs 300% duration, lmao.)

 

THIS IS A TON OF REDUCTION!

...

But is it??? I mean, sometimes, yes, it will be. But outside a sheet of paper, what are we looking at?

 

The armor is admittedly nice. Although, heat procs would halve it, which suddenly makes it a very low amount of armor in the realm of high level enemies.

Quick Thinking mechanic could be a good layer, but Mirage has 638 energy, and if we imagine that's our health pool instead (which it would be), then suddenly that doesn't seem very high, now, does it? Plus we'll be getting staggered. And although Pain Threshold can help, it won't stop us from dying to the bigger hits, like a Bombard or something. Or a Thrax.

Adaptation is nice in theory, but it has to ramp up. It's merely a complimentary source of defense. If the first few hits kill you, then it doesn't matter, right?

Null Star is hefty, but it requires huge amounts of duration. Luckily, our genie granted it to us! But even still, as enemies get close to you, you lose the charges rapidly. Additionally, you lose them FASTER with more ability range, and gutting your range means Slight of Hand will reach nobody, severely hurting your CC capabilities, forcing you to constantly take the brunt of all incoming damage. And losing even just a mere 5% reduction per charge means you're very likely to die just for missing 2 or 3 charges.

And Eclipse? I mean... oh look, you're in the light, Eclipse does nothing, please come again.

 

There's only so much you can do. And we haven't even touched up on how you plan on healing your Frame. You might have 1500 HP with Arcane Blessing, but if you can't instantly heal it on command with no cooldown, it just means you'll die to two Detron Crewman shots instead of one. (This is why HP is the least important defensive layer. Going from 300 HP to 1500 HP is merely the equivalent of gaining 80% damage reduction against a single instance of damage, if you're not immediately healed to full HP after that instance.)

 

All of this being said, it's hard enough to survive on an HP Mirage as an active player defending themselves. But you wanna talk about an HP Mirage facetanking level 1000+ enemies while you spend ~10 seconds doing a Void Cascade node??? Yeah, I promise you, that free 90% damage reduction aint gonna buy you any tickets.

 

Now, do me a favor. Don't cherrypick the specific defensive layers I've chosen for this example. The reality is that, however it is that YOU might build a Frame like Mirage, the fact of the matter is that a Frame needs to be able to cover certain departments on its own. This is ESPECIALLY true for building a Frame defensively via HP (versus shield gating). Helminth only has Null Star for defensives, minus several good armor options, but EVERYONE can get pretty good armor pretty easily. But big armor isn't even remotely close to good enough. And so, all you're left with is a bunch of makeshift mods that not only don't reliably provide you with what you're even equipping them for, but also don't leave you with any room for actual ability stats.

 

It just doesn't work.

 

Again - yes, it works for Hydron.

But, no, it does not work for high level game modes. And so, that's why a lot of Frames play shield gating. (Trust me, I much prefer non-shield gating gameplay, but a lot of Frames have to do what they have to do.)

And then, shield gaters get punished for going Operator, because now their squishy Frame is exposed and vulnerable, all because you guys got mad at the guy that farmed Rubedo at a speed of 10 per hour with... Equinox, or something.

Even though they could just as easily spam CC everything instead of sitting in Void Mode.

But let's just cherrypick only one of the hundred different things they could do. And change it in one of the worst ways of the options available.

And now let's defend all of these bad decisions on the forums...

Because things aren't ever allowed to change...

 

Because change is scary...

 

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH, okay, going to bed again, guys, lmao.

Always fun. Always a pleasure. Cheers! :)

[0_The_F00l]

44 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

You keep saying things like "effortless results," and "I don't think a player should be invulnerable."

I haven't said the invulnerable part stop wasting time with false quotes.

44 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

But let's try to keep this fallacy-free, please. 

Difficult to do since the whole topic is based on nonsense and illogical reasoning. But let's try.

44 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Those are obviously strawman arguments. It's not like the players are invulnerable. That's an intentionally-misleading statement. Nobody is zipping around in a Warframe, blasting things for 20 million DPS in an AoE, all while invulnerable, now, are they?

No. If they're invulnerable, they're sitting there, idle, literally doing nothing at all.

Yes , because of the current mechanics that prevent it from being ridiculous , the same thing you are asking to remove.

Players aren't invulnerable if you choose to do said things.

44 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

For the 100th time... Please, tell me what crazy strong ability can be left enabled on a would-be invulnerable Warframe that can kill level 1000+ enemies in a timely manner.

Please. Please. Tell me. If you're unable to tell me, and decide to just frisbee the next fallacy at my forehead, then just know that we'll all see it being done in plain sight.

 

This back & forth with the fallacies has really killed the discussion. I hate that conversations can never be held because of that.

Very well , 

Xaku grasp and gaze , mirage (explosive ledgerdemain preferably paired with any area Armor removal mechanic) , umbra / wukong with kitgun or weapon having battery , Vauban with nail mine , Saryn , Octavia.

Combine with suitable focus for more observable results.

 

Just cause you lack the ability to notice the potential issues does not mean they do not exist 

Edited July 25, 2023 by 0_The_F00l

[4thBro]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Very well , 

Xaku grasp and gaze , mirage (explosive ledgerdemain preferably paired with any area Armor removal mechanic) , umbra / wukong with kitgun or weapon having battery , Vauban with nail mine , Saryn , Octavia.

Combine with suitable focus for more observable results.

 

Just cause you lack the ability to notice the potential issues does not mean they do not exist

Hey, at least you stepped up and named some things. Finally someone did.

 

Of course, my responses are:

1) These won't outfarm an active player. But more importantly...

2) Why not fix this by having anything from your Frame deal 0 damage while you're in Operator? This causes ZERO problems in other parts of the game, while the current "fix" not only causes problems in other parts of the game, but it also technically STILL ALLOWS people to sit in Operator and do these things still. As I keep being reminded, you DO get +90% damage reduction, right? And also as I keep being told, this SHOULD be enough to keep me alive, right? Well it goes both ways, not just the way that's against my position. If that free reduction can keep me alive while I'm trying to do Void Cascade and my Frame is outputting zero damage, then it should certainly be able to keep people alive that are doing this "afk void mode" strategy while their Frame DOES have damage output.

 

...

 

?????

[0_The_F00l]

38 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Hey, at least you stepped up and named some things. Finally someone did.

I think some were already mentioned , but not the point.

38 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Of course, my responses are:

1) These won't outfarm an active player. But more importantly...

Maybe not , (really depends how much the active player is interested in farming) but it is more about the ability to do so with little to no engagement than the speed of rewards. Things that can encourage passive acquisition are things that can be exploited.

38 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

2) Why not fix this by having anything from your Frame deal 0 damage while you're in Operator? This causes ZERO problems in other parts of the game, while the current "fix" not only causes problems in other parts of the game, but it also technically STILL ALLOWS people to sit in Operator and do these things still. As I keep being reminded, you DO get +90% damage reduction, right? And also as I keep being told, this SHOULD be enough to keep me alive, right? Well it goes both ways, not just the way that's against my position. If that free reduction can keep me alive while I'm trying to do Void Cascade and my Frame is outputting zero damage, then it should certainly be able to keep people alive that are doing this "afk void mode" strategy while their Frame DOES have damage output.

 

...

 

?????

You assume things are as easy and as segregated as having a switch to turn things on or off between light and dark.

That's not really the case. And not all passive abilities do damage directly , some passively do other things , like citrine giving everyone a DR or nekros give loot , 

While you would rather have the ability "switch off" others would rather that not happen and stay active while they gain some passive benefits while they use operators.

There is also no guarantee that can actually work, you are too flippant in thinking your issues are the only issues that can arise out of the changes you propose.

And the poor example you have kinda proves the point , it stops players from doing exactly what you are describing. And you are not expected to stay in void mode indefinitely.

So Stop acting like your problems are the only ones that exist and anyone disagreeing with you is just trolling.

Edited July 25, 2023 by 0_The_F00l

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

- Yolo, let's say Arcane Ultimatum, we'll play Naramon for reliable finishers. (Or maybe Bronco, whatever.)

i mean, before all the rest of that, if you're going to have reliable Finishers, i'd just say use Arcane Trickery. much easier than trying to stack enough DR to survive vs lv1000+ Enemies.

and the Duration of that is 30 Seconds, so that should be enough to comfortably deal with whatever outside of your Warframe, and you don't need to find a pit to disable your Abilities with.

[(NSW)Greybones]

4 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Nothing in Steel Path is even challenging, if you play casually. As long as you "extract at 5" (or whatever the equivalent), enemies never got strong, and the only thing that happened is you got some extra rewards. In my OWN opinion, players should default SP so that they get to enjoy the fun of planning some kind of build that at least cares a little bit. Normal Mode missions are like... you can practically go in with 8x ele mods for no reason whatsoever, and you'll absolutely dominate. How is that fun? Don't you at least want to feel like you designed something good?

And, I mean - maybe not, lol. Maybe that's just a Me thing.

 

Anyway...

I mean sure, Steel Path is the place to go to test powerful builds, where the goal of designing a build to dominate and remove the challenge is the point, while the rest of the non-SP game is to design a build plays well and can be fun to use (and the standard game is a lot more balanced and facilitates alternative ways to build and play that Steel Path, with its 4-player spawnrate for one player and crazy armour-scaling that makes direct damage a lot less of an option than bypassing armour, doesn’t). I don’t think players should be defaulting to SP though because the build and playstyle variety is so low and undermines most of the total grind while rewarding only a fraction of it; it’s definitely something that works a lot better as an every-so-often thing if someone has a particularly powerful build they want to test to see how it fares instead of as a “I live in Steel Path now and I’m taking this one build everywhere”, because understandably it gets a little stale.

And it’s not like “Designing something good” only applies to max number invulnerability builds; making builds that give the desired gameplay and facilitates desired equipment behaviour for a mission requires alternative knowledge than just following some Meta guide, like knowing when you’re overbuilt or underbuilt in the first place so that you know when you’re doing something like rocking redundant mods that could be replaced for something different. Personally I love playing around with the elemental effects and building my gear to fulfill a role for the mission while interweaving use across all my kit, but most of the fun comes just from fighting and the scenarios that can occur when the game gets a chance to be a game, and a build that gives me fun is a good build.

I also don’t think that Steel Path should be what is designed around because changing fundamental systems like Warframe vulnerability affects more than just those who try and prove themselves through endurance runs, it affects everyone across the whole, and personally I like having to think a little and being punished for bad decisions in most of the content I do and build for

[Loza03]

To be honest, it makes some sense that the frame should be vulnerable in Operator mode more often. It makes both logical and design sense. The Operator is in an extremely awkward spot due to how much power the ability to activate a mode where the thing that causes you to fail the mission if it dies is now invulnerable. I mean, your operator needs to die five times before your frame does, and after you invest, even if your frame dies, you get a nearly-free revive from last gasp.  Which means that the Devs can't really invest in making Operators cool, because they have a lot of exploit potential.

 

If fewer exploits are the price for Operators to be cooler (and, like, probably have a whole bunch of cool exploits because of it, let's be real), then I'm for Frames being vulnerable in Operator mode

[Loza03]

Additional note:

 

it seems the core problem of this thread is not 'Frames being Vulnerable', but rather, the problems with Warframe's rather Haphazard scaling systems. Which, at this rate, I am pretty sure you could link a full three quarters of the game's issues back to at this point.

[Her_Lovely_Tentacles]

On 2023-07-24 at 9:20 AM, emmyemi said:

[...]

I 100% agree that being overpowered is pretty much the end goal of gameplay here, but what is a goal without obstacles to overcome? Why should leaving your Warframe unattended, surrounded by enemy forces, for any extended period of time not be considered, at the very least, an extreme tactical risk?

Leaving your Warframe unattended with active defensive skills is a tactical risk.

Leaving it unattended without any defenses is not a risk at all.

Does that not seem backwards to you?

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, Her_Lovely_Tentacles said:

Leaving your Warframe unattended with active defensive skills is a tactical risk.

Leaving it unattended without any defenses is not a risk at all.

Does that not seem backwards to you?

[4thBro]

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You assume things are as easy and as segregated as having a switch to turn things on or off between light and dark.

Are we talking about, like... programming? No, I'm not assuming they can just make something that's true become false, or whatnot. But they CAN very easily just slap a x0 damage multiplier on your Frame if you're in Operator. Yes, they CAN do that, very easily.

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

That's not really the case. And not all passive abilities do damage directly , some passively do other things , like citrine giving everyone a DR or nekros give loot , 

And I think at THIS point you're just nitpicking. You really do need to figure out your line in the sand. At what point do you no longer care if people have invuln Warframes? It can't be always. Because, at this rate, you'd complain if an entire player slot was being spent on giving its allies +5% credit drop wHiLe BeiNg iNvULneRabLe.

Seriously. Who the freak cares, dude? WHY are we in this thread defending this mechanic so vehemently? It's SO weird. There are literal game modes where literal Frames literally can't participate. All because somebody farmed some Rubedo, SLOWER than you can, but they put in less effort than you did, so... therefore... they deserve nothing???

It's SO WEIRD!

It's so weird...

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

While you would rather have the ability "switch off" others would rather that not happen and stay active while they gain some passive benefits while they use operators.

What the hell, is this not EXACTLY what you're been saying is what the whole mechanic is trying to PREVENT, that you SUPPORT???

 

It's like I'm taking CRAZY PILLS!

 

8 hours ago, taiiat said:

i mean, before all the rest of that, if you're going to have reliable Finishers, i'd just say use Arcane Trickery. much easier than trying to stack enough DR to survive vs lv1000+ Enemies.

... You're gonna nitpick my defensive Mirage example, and you're gonna throw Trickery at me?? 15% chance to go invisible??

AND for Void Cascade, you're suggesting me this??

 

I'm supposed to spend literal minutes fishing for the Trickery proc, while I got Cascades building up? Yeah, that aint it.

 

1 hour ago, Her_Lovely_Tentacles said:

Leaving your Warframe unattended with active defensive skills is a tactical risk.

Leaving it unattended without any defenses is not a risk at all.

Does that not seem backwards to you?

Omg, thank you. Maybe I'm not in the Twilight Zone after all.