Universal-Exilus Formas compatible with any Mod Polarity

[(PSN)GoDz_Revoo]

The community has never suggested DE to add more Universal Formas same as the Aura Forma like for the Exilus and Normal modding panel to test new options for builds?

We have minimum 3 configurations for builds but all focused depending the polarities of Config A. Many mods are rotting because of this. Same its happening on the 8 normal panel mod slots where they could add a universal forma compatible with all polarities no matter if has to be limited to 2 per warframe as well as weapons. I personally enjoy testing multiple abilities from helminth and try different options of mods that seems interesting to use but the game giving that "limitation" its not worth it and to be honest making 3-4 different Nekros or 10 tenet weapons like the arca plasmor with different builds its just a big NO. On the weapons I have duplicates because of the different progenitors elemental damages but not because of a polarity inconvinience. Wonder if other players feels the same where they try to build on a new configuration to test something new but can't set a mod because its incompatible with a polarity of other Config

 

[Voltage]

Aura Forma and Stance have sound sense behind them (given that there are so many polarities in those two systems). Omni-polarities for non-Aura/Stance slots however don't, as the entire point of Forma and polarities is to have trade-offs when stacking the powerful and high cost mods. 

If you want to "have it all", you are going to need to specialize equipment and own multiple copies. However, successfully balancing trade-offs is also rewarding. I own one copy of everything, and a few exceptions for specialization with duplicates (Ivara Prime, Saryn Prime, Pyrana Prime and Zenith for example). You can certainly have a single Nekros Prime that can do Shadows of the Dead, Desecrate for squads with buffs, and Creeping Terrify, Desecrate, and buffs for things like Tusk Thumpers all on the same Forma settings. That's the one place modding does excel in. You are heavily rewarded with reducing overall grind for extra items if you can manage the trade-offs, but if you do want to have it all, you're free to own as many duplicates as you want.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Voltage

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GoDz_Revoo said:

The community has never suggested DE to add more Universal Formas same as the Aura Forma like for the Exilus and Normal modding panel to test new options for builds?

This is patently false.  The very same suggestion you are making here has been brought up time and again by other players.  It's something I would certainly welcome for exilus, but I doubt we'll get it.  It would, indirectly I think, make Primed Surefooted even easier to use, and that's probably not something DE wants to do.  It's already widely regarded as good to the point of being mandatory.

 

Again, I would welcome your suggestion for a universal polarity exilus forma.  But you aren't the first person to think of this.

[Tiltskillet]

29 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

But you aren't the first person to think of this.

I read it the same way at first, but I think it was a question, not a proclamation. :P

[Hexerin]

For weapons? Absolutely.

For frames? Absolutely not.

Weapons still maintain their exilus as an almost entirely utility slot, so there would be very little power gain in making it a universally polarized slot. It would keep mostly in the realm of quality of life, which is in line with what a utility slot is.

Frames, on the other hand, have a few generic exilus mods, and a few frame-specific exilus mods, that all add actual power. Making the exilus slot on frames universally polarized would be a big boost in power for some frames.

[(PSN)GoDz_Revoo]

Apparently some didn't understood what I tried to say. First this is a pacific discussion in a natural way to add value on the game.

In terms of building frames and weapons you can do many combinations with the current 5 polarities and excluding Aura because its apart and already has the Aura forma its just simple math...  but polarities limit players to go only one way direction.

In case someone doesn't get what Im saying, if I build a warframe (for example) mostly duration/range/efficiency on Config A including Rolling Guard/Adaptation then on Config B or C I can't try other ways/types of builds like with full strenght and stretch or maybe 1-2 augments... could even be an umbra mod just because of the polarities added on Config A were practically all Naramon &  Vazarin.

What just 1 polarity of Madurai to play with for Strenght on this situation and maybe the Augur Strenght with Naramon.. what about the others... 5 polarities and tons of mods

The same thing happens with weapons where practically most formas are added to the weapon with a Madurai polarity but what if I want to try other builds with Naramon the negative draining its the problem where increase a lot not allowing you to try multiple different mods for specific approaches.

That's a full problem in many ways and DE could do a vote and Im sure more than 80% of people had problems making new builds atleast once no matter if its a beginner or veteran playing with a specific warframe. I'm also sure most players don't like the current idea of having repeated warframes and weapons in their inventory just to do new builds. Excluding weapons as I've said with the lich/parvos sisters could have repeated weapons because of the elemental dmg added which makes it interesting and fun to play with.

Not to bring also the limitation of only one way of modding elemental reactions as Radiation/Viral because its impossible to have Gas/Viral or Magnetic/Viral  unless its a tenet or kuva weapon because try it just with mods... its IMPOSSIBLE and it takes 2 mod slots instead of 1 mod that could say 60% SC/60% Radiation or 90%-120% radiation... so i can use maybe puncture or increase slash... this is just to mention one elementary dmg combination because there are others but anyway not the topic here.

......

To @Voltage that said Im not the 1st obviously if in 10 years since its release nobody has said anything about it its like wow then this game doesnt have as many players as I thought. But since Im not the 1st then it could be a problem just numbers you know and who keeps the game alive? Players and Content Creators that are what... players too... just saying if you add more stuff into the game then you need to make something to balance it but also making the audience to be interested because what is the purpose of adding tons of mods and they are ROTTING on the inventory. As well as warframes that are ROTTING too in the inventory where most people dont use them.... my opinion thats a game with no value... just saying. However I love the game no matter the tons of bugs that has too... just imagine dude I like SP Circuit because thats something new no pet/sentinel companion to resurrect you. It makes you build all warframes and weapons... cant be used specifically because its random so sorry for those that has a specific frame witg a specific weapon with a specific companion lol come on the game literally fun and well developed.

I just brought something for discussion so whoever wants to say something bring their overview about it for a win-win situation for both company and players of a problem that its actually happening. I mean we have moderators here that can bring this to management or not? 

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2023-07-30 at 6:47 PM, (PSN)GoDz_Revoo said:

The community has never suggested DE to add more Universal Formas same as the Aura Forma like for the Exilus and Normal modding panel to test new options for builds?

The community has suggested it approximately once a month since the Exilus slot was released. It's practically on the Forum Bingo card.

DE's answer has been to completely ignore them.

The only loosely connected topic was the concept of any kind of Forma that provides more than one polarity (for anything except the Auras, which they only did as part of a large-scale community appeasement after multiple poorly executed updates in a row), to which DE said that it's 'not even on the table for discussion'.

That's about it.

In terms of news, there is no news. Their decision appears to be holding for several years now.

To be honest, I genuinely never want to see a situation where DE screw up so badly that they try to say sorry by adding something like this... that would have to be a major, major screw up.

[PollexMessier]

On 2023-07-30 at 11:48 AM, Voltage said:

Aura Forma and Stance have sound sense behind them (given that there are so many polarities in those two systems). Omni-polarities for non-Aura/Stance slots however don't, as the entire point of Forma and polarities is to have trade-offs when stacking the powerful and high cost mods. 

If you want to "have it all", you are going to need to specialize equipment and own multiple copies. However, successfully balancing trade-offs is also rewarding. I own one copy of everything, and a few exceptions for specialization with duplicates (Ivara Prime, Saryn Prime, Pyrana Prime and Zenith for example). You can certainly have a single Nekros Prime that can do Shadows of the Dead, Desecrate for squads with buffs, and Creeping Terrify, Desecrate, and buffs for things like Tusk Thumpers all on the same Forma settings. That's the one place modding does excel in. You are heavily rewarded with reducing overall grind for extra items if you can manage the trade-offs, but if you do want to have it all, you're free to own as many duplicates as you want.

The issue with this mindset is this is a major reason that causes a playerbase to gravitate towards metas and premade builds instead of experimenting and having fun with things.

I greatly appreciate warframe already doing much more to give players freedom to swap around their loadout however they wish while most other mmos often restrict you on this so hard you're pigeonholed into a few metas you can't change out of once you're in them, or need to straight up restart the game you've already sunk hundreds of hours in if you go your own way and it turns out to be absolute garbage in the endgame.

But forma is the one thing holding this game back from truly completely breaking out of that bubble and being totally free of this sort of thing.
You can say "just get another copy" all you want but 99% of players are gonna look at the prospect of doing that and just say "I don't have time for that"
Nobody (reasonable) wants to invest the time to grind out copies of a frame or weapon and forma them up multiple times just to have a one or two polarity difference between them and very little functional difference. It's easier, more time efficient, and less self inflicted torture to just polarize something for a generalized build and avoid trapping yourself into a specialization because the game just doesn't need that level of min maxing. And it also tends to just not be that good if an idea because in nearly every instance of anyone wanting to specialize a frame or weapon into multiple categories, there's already another frame or weapon that fills those other roles better which going for would be a better and more rewarding thing to do.

I see the give and take argument every time this comes up but nobody ever really gives a good reason as to why it should be that way to begin with. You've actually made the only reasonable argument for this I've seen to date which is that working around the limitation in and of itself can be fun and satisfying......
But most of the time I see this suggestion come up it's almost always: Just universal exilus, and maybe a single allowed universal slot for normal mods. Which still forces you to be careful with the other.... 4-6 polarities you'll have to have depending on what it is (Yes I do have 7 polarized normal slots on some of my gear, I hate it, and it's not even enough for what I want sometimes). Which still fulfills the role of working around limitations, just now a bit less. And they also frequently come with the caveat of "Even if it has to be as rare as umbra forma" which forces you to carefully consider which frames would make the most effective use of such a rare resource and has the soft limitation of "you can't ever put this on a non-prime frame cus it'll be a waste when the prime comes out" which maintains the current polarization limitations on newest... 12 or so frames, and whatever vaulted prime frames any given player doesn't have. And all but removes putting them on weapons as an option at all.

Plus universal exilus barely even frees up any limitations cus currently the exilus slot is really just the primed sure footed slot for those that have it, even if they don't use aoe weapons, cus enemy knockdowns are endlessly spammed in warframe nowadays and it is genuinely just the most unfun commonly used mechanic in games as a whole. It pretty much becomes a freedom awarded exclusively to the few frames that have their own knockdown negation mechanic. Or frames (that can have a reasonable duration) you wanna waste an ability slot on for spellbind. And when it's not the primed sure footed slot it's the "Whatever drift mod is most useful on this frame" slot which 9 times out of 10 is power drift. At most it opens up the door for dumb fun builds like max mobility.

[Voltage]

26 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

The issue with this mindset is this is a major reason that causes a playerbase to gravitate towards metas and premade builds instead of experimenting and having fun with things.

I greatly appreciate warframe already doing much more to give players freedom to swap around their loadout however they wish while most other mmos often restrict you on this so hard you're pigeonholed into a few metas you can't change out of once you're in them, or need to straight up restart the game you've already sunk hundreds of hours in if you go your own way and it turns out to be absolute garbage in the endgame.

But forma is the one thing holding this game back from truly completely breaking out of that bubble and being totally free of this sort of thing.
You can say "just get another copy" all you want but 99% of players are gonna look at the prospect of doing that and just say "I don't have time for that"
Nobody (reasonable) wants to invest the time to grind out copies of a frame or weapon and forma them up multiple times just to have a one or two polarity difference between them and very little functional difference. It's easier, more time efficient, and less self inflicted torture to just polarize something for a generalized build and avoid trapping yourself into a specialization because the game just doesn't need that level of min maxing. And it also tends to just not be that good if an idea because in nearly every instance of anyone wanting to specialize a frame or weapon into multiple categories, there's already another frame or weapon that fills those other roles better which going for would be a better and more rewarding thing to do.

I see the give and take argument every time this comes up but nobody ever really gives a good reason as to why it should be that way to begin with. You've actually made the only reasonable argument for this I've seen to date which is that working around the limitation in and of itself can be fun and satisfying......
But most of the time I see this suggestion come up it's almost always: Just universal exilus, and maybe a single allowed universal slot for normal mods. Which still forces you to be careful with the other.... 4-6 polarities you'll have to have depending on what it is (Yes I do have 7 polarized normal slots on some of my gear, I hate it, and it's not even enough for what I want sometimes). Which still fulfills the role of working around limitations, just now a bit less. And they also frequently come with the caveat of "Even if it has to be as rare as umbra forma" which forces you to carefully consider which frames would make the most effective use of such a rare resource and has the soft limitation of "you can't ever put this on a non-prime frame cus it'll be a waste when the prime comes out" which maintains the current polarization limitations on newest... 12 or so frames, and whatever vaulted prime frames any given player doesn't have. And all but removes putting them on weapons as an option at all.

Plus universal exilus barely even frees up any limitations cus currently the exilus slot is really just the primed sure footed slot for those that have it, even if they don't use aoe weapons, cus enemy knockdowns are endlessly spammed in warframe nowadays and it is genuinely just the most unfun commonly used mechanic in games as a whole. It pretty much becomes a freedom awarded exclusively to the few frames that have their own knockdown negation mechanic. Or frames (that can have a reasonable duration) you wanna waste an ability slot on for spellbind. And when it's not the primed sure footed slot it's the "Whatever drift mod is most useful on this frame" slot which 9 times out of 10 is power drift. At most it opens up the door for dumb fun builds like max mobility.

Well the reason it's the way it is because limitations promote thought. If someone's going to copy a build, the removal or reduction in Forma usage for them won't change that habit. 

Warframe isn't a massive sandbox game. There's a line between "promoting experimentation" and simply watering down the mod system to be so accessible and "free" that there's nothing of value the player puts into the loadout besides their awareness of all the mechanics at play. Choices and consequences are a natural way to approach a loadout system. Payday 2 uses this thought process as well. 

I can't agree that letting players have their cake and eat it too somehow changes how people approach modding besides absolutely not caring for what they're doing.

"Pigeonholed builds" come from the game offering almost always the same or similar game modes, and extremely accessible ways to disable or kill all enemies on your way to an objective or extraction with the enabled behavior of "one-man-army" loadouts. The way you spice up modding and builds is by changing the way the game plays at the macro scale, not just adding more ways for the player to be less engaged with maintaining their mods. Part of the reason Forma and polarities work well too is it prevents future proofing of equipment which removes the scenario where the player makes a build in 2018, but never feels compelled to change it.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Voltage

[Hexerin]

42 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

And all but removes putting them on weapons as an option at all.

To be fair, melee generally doesn't need to be forma'd at all if you aren't using umbral mods. Since you basically never want to use Sacrificial Pressure (because it's baseline weaker than Pressure Point, and Primed Pressure Point exists), that means you generally only ever use Sacrificial Steel. Dropping one (maybe two) standard forma is hardly asking much to gain the power that Sacrificial Steel provides, I would say. You never have to use umbral forma on melee, is the main point I'm making.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, PollexMessier said:

You can say "just get another copy" all you want but 99% of players are gonna look at the prospect of doing that and just say "I don't have time for that"
Nobody (reasonable) wants to invest the time to grind out copies of a frame or weapon and forma them up multiple times just to have a one or two polarity difference between them and very little functional difference. It's easier, more time efficient, and less self inflicted torture to just polarize something for a generalized build and avoid trapping yourself into a specialization because the game just doesn't need that level of min maxing. And it also tends to just not be that good if an idea because in nearly every instance of anyone wanting to specialize a frame or weapon into multiple categories, there's already another frame or weapon that fills those other roles better which going for would be a better and more rewarding thing to do.

To add to that: there are many mechanics in the game made specifically to counter this "just get another copy". It's an outdated mindset. We used to need duplicate mods to share between your weapons and your Sentinel's weapons. Now we don't. Why?

Quote

Over time, the amount of systems to put your time into have increased. The appeal of grinding out a Duplicate Mod for Sentinels just isn’t a proposition we want players to be faced with in the context of everything else the game has to offer! 

And why do we have A/B/C configs? Surely it's because having multiple different builds is a good thing, right? You can even buy additional configs if the base 3 aren't enough. Why can you buy extra configs if you're actually supposed to just build a second item? Why do we have Aura Forma? So you're supposed to build a second copy of your frame if you want to support a different build, unless you just want to swap your Aura and then that's OK? Then there's Helminth, which exists specifically to consume extra copies of frames: you're supposed to recycle them in this way. Helminth's ability overrides were also introduced with individual config compatibility and this was important enough to get dedicated focus in the workshops and demos leading up.

Quote

Do Configurations matter?
You can deeply customize by only replacing Abilities on certain Configurations, as seen in the Demo! But we would like to expand this further to demonstrate just how deep you can go.

You can have 1 different Ability infused PER config!

So if you have Excalibur in the chair - you could put Shock on Configuration A, Molt on Configuration B, and Firewalker on Configuration C!

For example, if you wanted Shock applied to Excalibur on Configuration A but wanted Configuration B and Configuration C to stay default with Slash Dash, you can do so!

Sounds like configurations do in fact mater... Or we could talk about how DE could benefit from not having duplicates and triplicates of items clogging up "muh database", or we could talk about how having duplicates has already caused issues with Duviri's weapon selection.

There's no good reason to need duplicates, and many mechanics that specifically discourage it.

[Voltage]

45 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

To add to that: there are many mechanics in the game made specifically to counter this "just get another copy". It's an outdated mindset. We used to need duplicate mods to share between your weapons and your Sentinel's weapons. Now we don't. Why?

And why do we have A/B/C configs? Surely it's because having multiple different builds is a good thing, right? You can even buy additional configs if the base 3 aren't enough. Why can you buy extra configs if you're actually supposed to just build a second item? Why do we have Aura Forma? So you're supposed to build a second copy of your frame if you want to support a different build, unless you just want to swap your Aura and then that's OK? Then there's Helminth, which exists specifically to consume extra copies of frames: you're supposed to recycle them in this way. Helminth's ability overrides were also introduced with individual config compatibility and this was important enough to get dedicated focus in the workshops and demos leading up.

Sounds like configurations do in fact mater... Or we could talk about how DE could benefit from not having duplicates and triplicates of items clogging up "muh database", or we could talk about how having duplicates has already caused issues with Duviri's weapon selection.

There's no good reason to need duplicates, and many mechanics that specifically discourage it.

You're not forced to own duplicates to make builds work, it's just the option for those that want to have absolute maximization. People ask things like "well how about universal Forma is capped at using X per item". DE already implemented that in the way Aura and Stance Forma are restricted. These types of threads are "given a foot and asking for a mile". Warframe builds have lots of freedoms already, and if we count all the non-mod mod slots, there's almost 20 unique slots that essentially function as a mod, and that's excluding stat-stick perks, Operators/Drifters and Focus. Weapons are the way they are because of homogenized stats, multipliers, and the function of a weapon always being the same: mod to kill.

I think the elephant in the room that this thread truly speaks to is stale repetition of AoE-DPS focused gameplay. Warframe's strong suit as a game is having a satisfying experience for when you can create the perfect tool for every job, and every unique mission offers unique builds that help you complete objectives in a streamlined fashion. The builds that speak the most fun to me are Profit-Taker, Plague Star, every past Operation I've participated in, Eidolons, Disruption, Adaro, and Trials. Modding for a Fissure Exterminate or a mode like Void Flood where your build doesn't matter at all is where you can probably feel pigeon-holed because you're being asked to mod something in such a boring manner.

The road DE has gone down over the last 3-4 years now is "every loadout is a hammer, and every mission is essentially a nail". That's where builds suffer. Shield-gating, Helminth, and various other additions to the game while on paper sound like major additions for players to experiment, result in extremely trivial build-crafting because you're essentially every possible role in a mission at the same time with a different coat of paint. The options to try cool synergies is there, but most players just care to slap on Eclipse or Gloom and pull out their favorite flavor of room-clearing. You can see this with Incarnons, as they're all AoE in one from or another. Universal polarities move in the same direction Helminth did in my opinion.

I also just want to clarify that I'm probably just showing my age and how much I like how the game used to be.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Voltage

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, Voltage said:

You're not forced to own duplicates to make builds work, it's just the option for those that want to have absolute maximization. People ask things like "well how about universal Forma is capped at using X per item". DE already implemented that in the way Aura and Stance Forma are restricted. These types of threads are "given a foot and asking for a mile". Warframe builds have lots of freedoms already, and if we count all the non-mod mod slots, there's almost 20 unique slots that essentially function as a mod, and that's excluding stat-stick perks, Operators/Drifters and Focus. Weapons are the way they are because of homogenized stats, multipliers, and the function of a weapon always being the same: mod to kill.

You're not forced to, but according to you that's exactly what you think should be done. And if you don't then you have to cut corners if you want to try different things, meanwhile the set-it-and-forget-it builder has to give up nothing. It's a limit that only manages to discourage experimentation and encourage settling in to one build that never changes.

And while mods have a lot of freedom, they could have more freedom. That's a good thing. And if that also means not having to pay the idiot tax just to try out something new, even better!

13 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Warframe's strong suit as a game is having a satisfying experience for when you can create the perfect tool for every job, and every unique mission offers unique builds that help you complete objectives in a streamlined fashion. The builds that speak the most fun to me are Profit-Taker, Plague Star, every past Operation I've participated in, Eidolons, Disruption, Adaro, and Trials. Modding for a Fissure Exterminate or a mode like Void Flood where your build doesn't matter at all is where you can probably feel pigeon-holed because you're being asked to mod something in such a boring manner.

Which is a pretty good explanation of why build freedom is a good thing to have. If you're here saying that creating the perfect tool for every job and playing with unique builds is one of this game's strengths, something I fully agree with, then how do you also defend a system that only serves to get in the way of that?

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

You're not forced to, but according to you that's exactly what you think should be done. And if you don't then you have to cut corners if you want to try different things, meanwhile the set-it-and-forget-it builder has to give up nothing. It's a limit that only manages to discourage experimentation and encourage settling in to one build that never changes.

That's the point though. You need to pony up if you want to have it all, but you can still make things work with a bit of compromise. I only own duplicates of items where I really do need a second copy to have specialization in one thing, but a more general loadout for another (like my Ivara Prime, Saryn Prime, or Zenith). I make an effort not to own duplicates if I can help it though, and part of that is what encourages me to carefully consider what I'm modding for in isolation as well as across all loadouts. Experiments aren't free. Is this a disguised request for "let me try everything I want in the Simulacrum for free"? Set-it-and-forget-it builders won't change their habit, it's about not encouraging people to join that crowd. Sure, the "experimenting" player will change modding options more often, but a Universal polarity system makes them a set-it-and-forget-it builder when it comes to polarities. I just don't understand how you can look at the current state of modding and still not be satisfied with the freedom and power it offers you for (honestly) quite a low cost. 

People sticking to builds and not changing them is human nature to resist change and perform comfortable habits, not the polarity system. I own an insane amount of equipment in my inventory with double digit Forma counts, because I've been around so long that I've had to adjust for so changes in the game. That doesn't bother me. I feel rewarded with my upkeep of builds and making sure things work for the various setups I want to use. 

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

And while mods have a lot of freedom, they could have more freedom. That's a good thing. And if that also means not having to pay the idiot tax just to try out something new, even better!

I feel builds and modding already offer enough freedom, between Arcanes getting detached from cosmetics, the Exilus Slot being added, Aura Forma, Stance Forma, Umbra Forma, Archon Shards, new Arcanes, Arcane Helmets, Focus, and so many other variables have given us plenty of freedom with very few inconsistencies (Cold should really be a Naramon polarity for example, Brief Respite can certainly be Vazarin, etc.). Sure, you can always give more, but too much and we're just playing Creative Mode in Minecraft, where everything is eye-candy and cool, but that's about it. Forma is one of the only instances of resource management that lasts from the start of the game until the end of the game, and that's a good thing. As players we blow by and trivialize every economy in our way, but the polarity system is always there to be relevant for us to consider. 

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Which is a pretty good explanation of why build freedom is a good thing to have. If you're here saying that creating the perfect tool for every job and playing with unique builds is one of this game's strengths, something I fully agree with, then how do you also defend a system that only serves to get in the way of that?

I was sighting a very old strength of this game that I personally enjoyed (that I also miss dearly and long to see content that brings that satisfaction back, because it's gone from general content now). The Forma and polarity system never got in the way, as it rewarded you with reward/mission efficiency for your investment, and encouraged you to be a collector of gear and upgrades. The game coming to you and saying "this specific Hydroid setup is the best thing here, but you're going to have to turn your build upside-down" isn't "in the way", it's an investment cost with a reward attached to the end that is entirely voluntary. You can play Warframe like so many other players where they specifically invest in certain equipment and entirely ignore the rest. You can also play Warframe in a way where you're changing up your loadouts often and the combinations you're using. The game doesn't discourage the latter or encourage the former. If anything, it rewards the latter as most of the time you're gaming an efficiency metric, and more tools and loadouts gives more options to improve said metric. 

Polarities are a measure to prevent you from future-proofing equipment from re-investment and rewards the investment of experimentation. I don't understand why there needs to be a reduced cost in order to try what you want to try. Forma isn't insanely expensive either. Again, I think the problem here is several other issues clashing together, and this thread's solution is to ignore those issues and just let the player have their cake and eat it too. The game offers no good tutorials on various layers of mechanics, there's way too much multiplication going on with multipliers in this game, there's no introduction to "tiered" mods (you just find out by chance), and the gameplay revolves around similar player behavior even when objectives change.

The most anti-experimental part of Warframe is the complete failure and lack of information the player can find in-game on how something will work so that they don't have to try something that should already be documented. The Forma and polarity system are fine as they are, and even encourage trying alternative builds, but we're having this debate on "experimentation" when it's often you trying something that you don't know if it works because there's nothing in game to show you the math or proof on the behavior of what you're looking at.

I still stand by how I feel that we don't need universal polarities. They just further serve players who want to have it all with their configs and have even less compromises at play (as if modern Warframe even has that many to begin with). 

The most annoying part about feedback discussions on the Forums is that the solution to 10,000 different suggestions is often just fixing the absolutely broken foundation Warframe is sitting on. I understand why this is a suggestion, I've seen this suggestion several times before, but the negative feedback that causes this suggestion is from a failure within several layers of separate mechanics from modding, how the game plays in a practical sense, and the community DE endorses, not how you mod something in the fashion of choices and compromises.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Voltage

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Polarities are a measure to prevent you from future-proofing equipment from re-investment and rewards the investment of experimentation.

So it's a measure to prevent you from future-proofing, something that would allow you to try future things, but it's also supposed to reward experimenting with those future things? Am I the only one that sees the contradiction, here? It doesn't reward the "investment of experimentation", it taxes it. It is a payment you must make to experiment. Like you say, right now:

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Experiments aren't free.

And when you put a price tag on experimentation, is it really a surprise that so often those experiments don't even happen? Maybe experimentation should be encouraged at every chance in a game whose biggest strength is the experimentation?

Here, in the 2022 survey DE asked players if they felt the modding system encouraged experimentation. What do you think the results were, 90% of players saying "yes absolutely 6/6 it's the best most experimenty ever"?

Spoiler

Well, no, it's pretty well split. This should be a landslide 6/6 like bringing back Raids, but it's not. It turns out that a lot of people don't think that the system encourages experimentation, and this was one DE's key takeaways from the whole thing: "the Mod System could do with some TLC". Their words not mine. And if you look at feedback surrounding the mod system, polarity woes are one of the most common responses - and maybe that's for reason?

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

I just don't understand how you can look at the current state of modding and still not be satisfied with the freedom and power it offers you for (honestly) quite a low cost. 

It's simple: things can always get better, and better is better than not better. The modding system has so much potential for improvement, and could be so much more interesting and engaging, but that's held back and ultimately squandered by its many problems. This "no free lunch" mindset when it comes to experimentation being just one of them.

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Set-it-and-forget-it builders won't change their habit, it's about not encouraging people to join that crowd. Sure, the "experimenting" player will change modding options more often, but a Universal polarity system makes them a set-it-and-forget-it builder when it comes to polarities.

Right, and how do you suppose you prevent someone from joining that crowd? By making it easier to try new things, or by making it easier to settle in to a single build? Getting people to change modding options more often is a good thing, and you're not going to achieve that when experimenting has to come at a cost.

But to your larger point, sure: no disagreements there. Universal Forma would indeed make the polarity-picking process less involved and more set-it-and-forget-it. But between picking polarities on your mod slots and the mods you actually put in those mod slots, which do you feel contributes more to a build's efficacy and diversity? I would say the mods, certainly! Those are the part doing all the work, and shoveling a bunch of V polarities onto every weapon isn't exactly a thoughtful, creative task. You put the square peg in the square hole, and you're done. It's a simple matching minigame layered on top of Mod Capacity. So in return for becoming a set-it-and-forget-it builder when it comes to the little symbol matching minigame, something people already do anyways because the minigame discourages its own use, players become free to stop being set-it-and-forget-it builders when it comes to the part that actually matters: the mods themselves.

Which seems to be one of the key differences here. I value modding for the mods and the builds and how they go together. The polarity matching minigame is just a roadblock to that, a one-time fee to pay at the start of the process to make my build fit and a future burden to have to pay again if I ever want anything to change. So, I plan my build ahead of time so it works the first time and rarely does anything change afterwards. Little to no experimentation is done past that point because I've gotta pay every time I do. Very rarely do I replace an already-installed polarity, and when I do it's never an enjoyable experience. It's a "god damnit, I have to go to ESO again".

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Again, I think the problem here is several other issues clashing together, and this thread's solution is to ignore those issues and just let the player have their cake and eat it too. The game offers no good tutorials on various layers of mechanics, there's way too much multiplication going on with multipliers in this game, there's no introduction to "tiered" mods (you just find out by chance), and the gameplay revolves around similar player behavior even when objectives change.

Well I think you're wrong here, and provably so if you'll accept a little thought experiment. Here: let's say that magically all of these other issues are fixed. There's an awesome tutorial now, everyone fully understands everything about modding, all the foundational issues are addressed, poof and it's done. But even then polarities could still end up mismatched and get in the way of having multiple builds on different configs. It's a property inherent and unavoidable when having different polarities that copy across configs. It's not a child issue of the other equally important problems, it's its own thing.

[PollexMessier]

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

These types of threads are "given a foot and asking for a mile"

This phrase generally suggests that what we're asking for severely inconveniences the person we're asking.
That they're losing something to appease us

But what is DE actually giving? They maybe lose some forma sales and play time from the... fraction of a percent of players that'll go out of their way to get duplicates and re-forma gear multiple times. And they need to develop it but most of the code is already there, it'd be easier than making a new weapon.

But then they get potentially multiple times more play time and forma sales than they lost, from basically the entire playerbase, if they just make it time consuming to get and have a multiple forma cost to make, like every other universal polarity forma does. With basically 0 impact on game balance.

So what's the negative to them? What mile are we taking exactly?

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

Polarities are a measure to prevent you from future-proofing equipment from re-investment and rewards the investment of experimentation. I don't understand why there needs to be a reduced cost in order to try what you want to try.

What future proofing from re-investment? I can scarcely think of one single time DE's reworked a frame or added a new mod and I've gone and changed the polarities on anything to adjust for the change. Pretty much just galvanized aptitude And ember's rework years ago are the only times that's ever happened. DE's stated they don't want to do massive reworks like Ember anymore, also that was really just a stand out case, and the galvanized mods still required a lot of reorganizing builds and adding forma to fit them anyways just by virtue of their capacity cost, so polarity issues or not it still would've gotten about as much forma and grind out of the players anyways.

And why should it be cheaper to experiment? Just about the most obvious answer imaginable. So people actually do it. Why incur the cost at all when what you have works well enough? To have fun? Is spending hours grinding out forma and gear ranks, or entire additional copies of stuff you already have, just to see how your build fairs with a little extra survivability and a little less range fun? Why does it have to be a chore? Does making it less of a chore make it less fun?

[nslay]

This has been asked for many times over the years!

With SP Circuit and the randomizer, everyone is incentivized to build as many frames and weapons as possible. So, at this point, I really don't see a hypothetical Universal Exilus Forma for frames/weapons really affecting DE's Forma sales at all. In fact, they could charge significantly more for this special kind of Forma. And much like the Warframe Aura Forma BP, could have a steep crafting cost of 4 normal Forma.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

A universal forma would be great. Maybe only one could be placed per weapon, frame or anything else to limit it.

[PublikDomain]

27 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

They maybe lose some forma sales and play time from the... fraction of a percent of players that'll go out of their way to get duplicates and re-forma gear multiple times.

18 minutes ago, nslay said:

So, at this point, I really don't see a hypothetical Universal Exilus Forma for frames/weapons really affecting DE's Forma sales at all.

It's also not hard to come up with other reasons to encourage appling more Forma. Add weapon prestiges or something, if you put in 10 Forma your weapon gets a little icon next to its name, 20 and it gets cool gold text on the player list, 30 and you get a free rename. If DE is would really lose out on Forma sales (which I highly doubt since most builds aren't going to need 8+ Forma anyways), then they can just add something new to offset it.

[(PSN)GoDz_Revoo]

On 2023-08-01 at 6:43 PM, PollexMessier said:

The issue with this mindset is this is a major reason that causes a playerbase to gravitate towards metas and premade builds instead of experimenting and having fun with things.

I greatly appreciate warframe already doing much more to give players freedom to swap around their loadout however they wish while most other mmos often restrict you on this so hard you're pigeonholed into a few metas you can't change out of once you're in them, or need to straight up restart the game you've already sunk hundreds of hours in if you go your own way and it turns out to be absolute garbage in the endgame.

But forma is the one thing holding this game back from truly completely breaking out of that bubble and being totally free of this sort of thing.
You can say "just get another copy" all you want but 99% of players are gonna look at the prospect of doing that and just say "I don't have time for that"
Nobody (reasonable) wants to invest the time to grind out copies of a frame or weapon and forma them up multiple times just to have a one or two polarity difference between them and very little functional difference. It's easier, more time efficient, and less self inflicted torture to just polarize something for a generalized build and avoid trapping yourself into a specialization because the game just doesn't need that level of min maxing. And it also tends to just not be that good if an idea because in nearly every instance of anyone wanting to specialize a frame or weapon into multiple categories, there's already another frame or weapon that fills those other roles better which going for would be a better and more rewarding thing to do.

I see the give and take argument every time this comes up but nobody ever really gives a good reason as to why it should be that way to begin with. You've actually made the only reasonable argument for this I've seen to date which is that working around the limitation in and of itself can be fun and satisfying......
But most of the time I see this suggestion come up it's almost always: Just universal exilus, and maybe a single allowed universal slot for normal mods. Which still forces you to be careful with the other.... 4-6 polarities you'll have to have depending on what it is (Yes I do have 7 polarized normal slots on some of my gear, I hate it, and it's not even enough for what I want sometimes). Which still fulfills the role of working around limitations, just now a bit less. And they also frequently come with the caveat of "Even if it has to be as rare as umbra forma" which forces you to carefully consider which frames would make the most effective use of such a rare resource and has the soft limitation of "you can't ever put this on a non-prime frame cus it'll be a waste when the prime comes out" which maintains the current polarization limitations on newest... 12 or so frames, and whatever vaulted prime frames any given player doesn't have. And all but removes putting them on weapons as an option at all.

Plus universal exilus barely even frees up any limitations cus currently the exilus slot is really just the primed sure footed slot for those that have it, even if they don't use aoe weapons, cus enemy knockdowns are endlessly spammed in warframe nowadays and it is genuinely just the most unfun commonly used mechanic in games as a whole. It pretty much becomes a freedom awarded exclusively to the few frames that have their own knockdown negation mechanic. Or frames (that can have a reasonable duration) you wanna waste an ability slot on for spellbind. And when it's not the primed sure footed slot it's the "Whatever drift mod is most useful on this frame" slot which 9 times out of 10 is power drift. At most it opens up the door for dumb fun builds like max mobility.

You see thats practically to not say exactly what Im talking about... adding of what you say it takes forever to grind for a frame why would I want more than one copy warframe or weapon just to throw it away because I didnt liked how was built. And definitely one of the reasons most players just copy/paste other people builds instead of looking for something that can go all the way with a different approach and still have fun with it. I mean as Ive said TONS of mods to use always the same  and what... 10-15 mods overall for all types of warframes and weapons. Then why DE keeps adding mods if its bot worth the time to checking it out... then just eliminate all those mods most people dont use... oh no cant do that because maybe someone brings something different and yeah others will copy/paste if it works. Thats not fun the idea is everyone using different types of builds and discovering and enjoy the game. If Warframe would be a single player game without cross platform or friends to talk would be already out of market because its boring farming forever and thinking should I put a forma on this... when it takes a day to get one lol imagine the Umbra its totally rare 1-2 every couple of months. That's not convinient at all considering all the polarities the game has and keeps adding stuff but also giving "limitations" to players because its something of convinience at a certain point.

Once players hit Steel Path they just want to discover the perfect way to sustain damage and have survavility to go generally further lvl 500 but how many players have seen atleast above lvl 1000 just a few because they always get knocked Ive seen it by experience and have to keep helping them... thats not fun more when you have to defend an objective or we are 4 vs 50 enemies all at the same time attacking you... this is why us players have to discover by their own playstyle how to reach there without having a lot of struggles or making teammates constantly reviving you.

Then there is DE where it still has the same pattern of modding nope come on bring something that we can achieve goals and not by thinking everytime you are building a warframe or weapons "should I put this forma what if I dont like it... what if its not worth it..." 

No wonder why a lot of people Ive met since I started playing years ago leaved the game. I also leaved for couple of month multiple times because at the end the game its boring in a exponential way when there is not something interesting to do... and yes warframe has a lot to do but not every player its new to the game many has years playing it and building their warframes, weapons and riven rolls are one of the ways people spend time on the game. 

So yes mostly everyone copy/paste builds and definitely dont waste formas doing their own experiments because its a pain disliking something that will not work well to grind again or spend overpriced US dollars on exchange of just a couple of platinum the game gives... this is excluding the sales on trades where somehow moves the in-game currency but could be better.