Energy siphon is kinda useless

[Slayer-.]

12 minutes ago, Thorham said:

How exactly are they better than just going invisible for 34.32 seconds for 12.5 energy using Loki?

Ivara can go places Loki cannot.

[Thorham]

2 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

Ivara can go places Loki cannot.

With her zip line?

[Slayer-.]

Just now, Thorham said:

With her zip line?

Infiltrate mod.

[Thorham]

9 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

Infiltrate mod.

That's pretty nice. Easier to use than Switch Teleport (which I never use 😅).

[nslay]

I think Energy Siphon is OK on frames that don't cast abilities a lot. For example, it works well on a weapons platform Revenant since you don't really need to cast Mesmer Skin all that often. Oh, you might suggest that would you get an Energy Orb often enough. Maybe... I've had some bad times in SP Circuit where energy wasn't so plentiful on more energy-hungry frames.

As for Spy... I remember @-CdG-Zilchy telling me (and showing me!) that Nova is the most efficient Spy warframe. Indeed, Nova can do Spy missions at record speeds that are nearly impossible on any other frame in the game. I personally prefer Limbo and Loki for Spy. Sorry Ivara, you're just too slow.

[Aruquae]

7 minutes ago, nslay said:

Nova is the most efficient Spy warframe

Excuse me?

What is this unholy sentence my eyes were cursed to read? Teach me the ways

[isbergen]

Siphon is now completely and utterly outclassed by Energy Nexus. It was bad before, now it's just a joke.

[nslay]

4 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Excuse me?

What is this unholy sentence my eyes were cursed to read? Teach me the ways

Shouldn't be that surprising with her Wormhole. Here's the example Zilchy showed me some years ago where Nova does Lua Spy in 2 minutes, 20 seconds.

Spoiler

 

 

[Thorham]

16 minutes ago, isbergen said:

Siphon is now completely and utterly outclassed by Energy Nexus.

I forgot about that one 😅

 

[ECCHOSIERRA]

31 minutes ago, Thorham said:

I forgot about that one 😅

 

Its especially good if youre using nourish with decent duration because it multiplies the energy regen.

[Slayer-.]

11 hours ago, nslay said:

As for Spy... I remember @-CdG-Zilchy telling me (and showing me!) that Nova is the most efficient Spy warframe. Indeed, Nova can do Spy missions at record speeds that are nearly impossible on any other frame in the game. I personally prefer Limbo and Loki for Spy. Sorry Ivara, you're just too slow.

I use Nova with wormhole bypasses everything.

10 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Excuse me?

What is this unholy sentence my eyes were cursed to read? Teach me the ways

Like mentioned wormhole goes through all defence lasers/beam walls and cameras.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

On 2023-12-29 at 7:34 PM, SDGDen said:

at that point, wouldn't it be better to simply scrap energy as a factor and go for cooldowns instead?

 

think about it, if you have energy regen on a build that only spams one power, you're effectively already playing with a cooldown. 5 energy per second spamming a 25 energy power = 5 second effective cooldown on that power.

switching to a cooldown system would both prevent the meta from shifting to higher and higher energy regen builds (especially with nourish subsume now being a thing alongside energy nexus) and would make it so your effective cooldowns on your abilities are independent (thus meaning that previously unused abilities now become useful due to their now cooldowns. currently on for example ember you basically have the issue of "why would you ever waste energy on fireball if you could cast inferno instead", with cooldowns you could cast fireball when inferno is on cooldown)

for a cooldown system, i'd personally propose the default values of 10, 20, 30 and 40 seconds, with these values being offset a bit based on the type of warframe (casters for example would have lower base cooldowns especially on the ability they're supposed to be spamming, for example saryn's spores would have a lower base cooldown) with efficiency working the same way it does now (50% extra efficiency = halved cooldown duration, 75% = a quarter, which is also the maximum). 

i'd imagine this would require a lot of mods to be altered if they have anything to do with energy (for example quick thinking, energy nexus and the augur set bonus). things that give energy could simply lower or reset cooldowns, and things that used to give energy regen over time could give flat numerical cooldown reductions (for example energy siphon could lower your squad's cooldowns by 2 seconds flat) 

 

in all honesty, switching from energy to cooldowns at this point has a lot of benefits, but people will still dislike it because they can't spam their 4 every 2 seconds anymore (although i'd imagine there would be ways to do that: some abilities like garuda's bloodletting would be "cooldown resets", rage would lower cooldowns when taking damage and i'd imagine something like arcane energize being reworked into a chance of instant cooldown resets whenever you pick up an energy orb (with energy orbs lowering your cooldowns by 25% on pickup))

 

It doesn't really make any sense to completely overhaul every aspect of the Energy system, including Mods, Focus Schools, Passive/Weapon Effects and Gear items just to add a cooldown as you've stated. Plus, that doesn't sound like any better of an option if energy orbs just reduce the cooldown and sounds like you're mostly just shifting the goal post more than fixing the underlying issue. It by default would also have more limitations, Cooldown Reduction only really goes as far as "remove x seconds", "remove time entirely" and "has a chance to not go on cooldown". I think you'd be giving yourself more work overall for a system you couldn't add as much variety to and one you'd have a tougher time balancing since there's more limited ways of decreasing cooldown in general you can't just pinpoint and nerf/buff accordingly.

I think this kind of system could work as well if you tweaked it a bit more to include very harsh restrictions stacking multiple Cooldown sources couldn't just outright ignore like we currently don't have with Energy. Though again, that's adding a fixed Cooldown in a game like Warframe where people generally prefer spam casting. This is why I suggested an Energy Regen rate at a fixed duration, it functions pretty much the exact same as you pointed out, but you have a few more options for what can actually play into it and it would (hopefully) require less work to actually implement than a full cooldown overhaul would, and I'm personally not a fan of removing the uniqueness of Warframes like Lavos or unique restrictions from things like Augment Mods if I don't have to. It could definitely work, I just don't see it as very likely when the playerbase clearly doesn't like it, and we already have examples of how that can be abused with things like Railjack wherein all you've really done is make it take a half second longer to kill something since you've allowed cooldown reduction to exist.

Energy Regen is basically a Cooldown when you fully run out of Energy, and could potentially lead to more gaps in casting when you don't always want to just dump all your Energy at a moments notice. It's just a little less strict towards the beginning while cooldowns are front loaded with how strict they are, and as other games with cooldown reduction have showed us, it doesn't really solve the problem unless it's an actual series of hard limits you can't just bypass with more stuff.

Edited January 26 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[Slayer-.]

Cooldowns can burn in hell, players play Lavos for the cooldowns at a guess. ^{_{never did stop to learn that frame, trying to remember all the others I play all the time is enough.}}

[Berzerkules]

On 2024-01-05 at 8:10 AM, nslay said:

I think Energy Siphon is OK on frames that don't cast abilities a lot. For example, it works well on a weapons platform Revenant since you don't really need to cast Mesmer Skin all that often. Oh, you might suggest that would you get an Energy Orb often enough. Maybe... I've had some bad times in SP Circuit where energy wasn't so plentiful on more energy-hungry frames.

As for Spy... I remember @-CdG-Zilchy telling me (and showing me!) that Nova is the most efficient Spy warframe. Indeed, Nova can do Spy missions at record speeds that are nearly impossible on any other frame in the game. I personally prefer Limbo and Loki for Spy. Sorry Ivara, you're just too slow.

I always wondered what happened to Zilchy. I liked them. Hope they are OK.

[Dunkelheit]

Am 15.8.2023 um 16:15 schrieb (PSN)LoneRatatouille:

The energy it generates (0.6 per second, ) is simply to small to be worth dedicating your aura slot to  it especially since every  other energy generation method (zenurik well spring, arcane energys, equilibrium...)  by far out shines it.

If it gave 2 energy per second like archon stretch or (even better increased the energy provided by energy sources like grendel's nourish [matching the name energy siphon even better]) the mod might finally be effective enough to be worth using over other aura's

 

For starters, please tell me about all the other Auras that are super useful and absolutely needed.

[Hexerin]

57 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

For starters, please tell me about all the other Auras that are super useful and absolutely needed.

I mean, Corrosive Projection is the obvious one to bring up since it's the most ubiquitous for a whole list of various reasons that apply to half the warframe roster.

[Aldain]

3 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

For starters, please tell me about all the other Auras that are super useful and absolutely needed.

The ones that come to mind for me aside from Siphon are:

Growing Power (Not super common due to Grove farming)

Steel Charge (For when you can't run Power Donation without dinking your build and need extra capacity)

Power Donation (When you don't care about your Strength whatsoever)

Corrosive Projection (Pretty much a universal plus with all the damn things that have Armor these days)

And one MIGHT be able to make an Argument for Shield Disruption if you're fighting things that ONLY have shields to worry about and also ignore Toxin bypass for whatever reason.

Everything else feels crazy situational I will admit, the next best thing I can think of Ready Steel if you want initial combo without having to use a Melee lost for it, but that mod is still comically new and stupidly low in the drop chance department.

[TheKurtiStryke]

energy siphon rework idea:
 

option A)

2 energy per second

energy orbs grant extra 10% energy

 

option B

 2 energy per second

1.5 energy per second WHEN toggle abilities are active(works on those abilities that negates energy regen when actives)