PSA PSA: Heirloom Collection Platinum Changes & Lessons

[Prjkt_Shiro]

6 hours ago, Katinka said:

From what direction I've seen EU law going in, they are more likely to get in trouble for creating artificial scarcity than for going back on a small part of a bundle's description.  Even that's not going to happen any time soon though as the behaviour of came companies is not exactly a big priority for law makers.

Yeah FOMO should be illegal. Borderline addiction exploitation of customers. 😭

[PublikDomain]

4 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

what law prevents them from doing that? 

None. (edit: that I've seen suggested that actually hold up)

We've been through the whole "legal" thing already. The EULA states clearly that DE can make any changes they want to the game and that you've already agreed not to make a claim against them for it. Even if purchasing the packs entered you into some binding contract with DE, which it didn't, DE still protects themselves in the agreements you've already made with them. DE has also changed things that were sold after the fact many times just like they could here. They brought back early Prime Access cosmetics in the Prime Vault despite originally marketing these cosmetics as being exclusive to Prime Access, changed the Saita Prime operator suit's appearance after having already sold it to people, and brought back CB exclusives like the Lato and Braton Vandal despite them being, well, exclusive. Some might say "well those are different", but a change is a change and if it's been fine before it'll be fine again.

False advertising law, which is commonly suggested, would only apply if DE marketed these packs as exclusive but never actually intended to make them exclusive, or if they changed the exclusivity but not the advertisements. IE they'd need to be actively lying about in their current ads about their current offerings. Which, if they change their offering and update their ads to inform consumers of the change as they are legally obligated to do, would not be the case. Which is just what they've done in Prime Access FAQ where it now says that even new content will be exclusive to both Prime Access and Resurgence. They were not legally bound to never ever offer PA exclusives in any other form again, they just needed to inform consumers of that change.

About the most I've found otherwise is some Australian consumer protection law, which says that if a product or service has a major change you might be entitled to a partial refund or some other reimbursement if you ask for one. But I have my doubts that changing a piece of text in an ad would be very major, and even if it were it's not like DE isn't able to issue refunds. They just don't want to.

Edited February 17 by PublikDomain

[TARINunit9]

59 minutes ago, Prjkt_Shiro said:

Yeah FOMO should be illegal. Borderline addiction exploitation of customers. 😭

I support the sentiment but I wouldn't trust basically any human on the planet to try quantifying that in a legislative document. 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

Folks, come on, this is getting beyond ridiculous at this stage. The thing you're moaning about finished 47 days ago.

You're all bouncing nonsense about EULAs back and forth with no real knowledge of how any of it works, or how everything you're trying to discuss is already covered by the term End User, so you're not even discussing the correct thing.

And now you have some poor forum member stating "quantifying that in a legislative document" which makes absolutely no sense when you actually understand what the word quantifying means. You's literally have folks trying to use "big words" they don't understand just to try to fit in with conversations around "laws" that make less sense than that persons understanding of that word.

For your own sakes, let this go. It's been 47 days since the pack you failed to change or get any discount on with your behaviour in this thread ended. This isn't healthy behaviour. As soon as this thread takes a much needed 2 or 3 week break, someone kicks the hornet nest again and the same names start popping up again. Admittedly it was funny at first seeing all the "Law" talk but it's not anymore. Nothing new has been added to this thread in a very long time because it's all already been said.

The goal of the replies in this thread was to speak up and make your disapproval of the pack be heard. That's something everyone can at least understand. But the goal failed when those same people acted the way they did. Members and posts weren't removed for nothing.

So ask yourself, what exactly is the goal of keeping this going now?

[TARINunit9]

25 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Folks, come on, this is getting beyond ridiculous at this stage. The thing you're moaning about finished 47 days ago.

You must be new to the Internet. We have literally nothing better to do with our time

[Katinka]

29 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

You're all bouncing nonsense about EULAs back and forth with no real knowledge of how any of it works, or how everything you're trying to discuss is already covered by the term End User, so you're not even discussing the correct thing.

How does the term 'End User' already cover this in a manner that means we aren't discussing the correct thing?

29 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

So ask yourself, what exactly is the goal of keeping this going now?

General spit-balling to remind DE that people still aren't happy while they think about what to do next time?  When would you like us to discuss it?  Apparently there was no point discussing it when it was leaked before Tennocon because it wasn't final and we should wait until it was actually released, but then when it was released there was no point in us trying to convince them to change anything because it was in writing that it was a limited time exclusive and they couldn't change that term of sale once it was on sale.  If not now, then when should we be telling DE that we don't want limited time exclusive skins at premium prices that devalue the Platinum we've already bought?

Edited February 17 by Katinka

[(PSN)MYKK678]

1 hour ago, Katinka said:

How does the term 'End User' already cover this in a manner that means we aren't discussing the correct thing?

General spit-balling to remind DE that people still aren't happy while they think about what to do next time?  When would you like us to discuss it?  Apparently there was no point discussing it when it was leaked before Tennocon because it wasn't final and we should wait until it was actually released, but then when it was released there was no point in us trying to convince them to change anything because it was in writing that it was a limited time exclusive and they couldn't change that term of sale once it was on sale.  If not now, then when should we be telling DE that we don't want limited time exclusive skins at premium prices that devalue the Platinum we've already bought?

It's weird isn't it? So many times people in here are pretending to "throw themselves on the sword" in order to try to "protect" others from "FOMO practices", and yet it's so easy to get a knee jerk reply like the one above that highlights it has nothing to do with protecting anyone from anything, and is simply a grudge over Platinum.

You aren't reminding anyone of anything I'm afraid. Any Constructive Criticism ended about 70 pages back, around the same time that everything meaningful was already said. This isn't a reminder of the "courageous few still fighting the good fight", you just remind folks of that one person still hanging around in the kitchen refusing to go home despite the houseparty ending 2 hours ago.

[Katinka]

I'm hardly throwing myself on my sword.  I'm making posts in my spare time after getting an alert that there was activity while watching Youtube in another tab and playing Warframe in another window.  And what does it matter if it's about Platinum?  Can't it be about that and also be about disliking FOMO?  DE is a business and they make money off Platinum sales.  I'm a customer giving feedback about why I've stopped buying Platinum on a regular basis, I stopped so I could save up for this bundle and I haven't started again because I have no idea what they plan to do next time around.

I notice though that my questions were avoided.  What was meant by "everything you're trying to discuss is already covered by the term End User, so you're not even discussing the correct thing" and when do you think is the appropriate time to give feedback?

[Prjkt_Shiro]

2 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

So ask yourself, what exactly is the goal of keeping this going now?

If you cannot tell, my comment started this again after the discussion went silent.
I'm a new participant to the forums here and found them when Googling information about the Heirloom set.

Having known it existed and excitedly and patiently waiting for cross-save/platform data migration to open up on PC since I no longer had access to my Xbox device. At that time, I never looked into the Heirloom set aside from my general knowledge about it that "hey cool frost and mag skin, can't wait to get to PC". I did not know it was limited time until after I came to the forum. After I finally got my account back into an active state when migration was opened again in January '24 on PC I found out the Heirloom set was vaulted when I could not find it in the store in the game.

So I came to also write and express my disappointment and dejection regarding it. It may have ended 47 days ago, but I'm a returning player as of 20ish days ago and just found this information out. I apologize if this created frustration.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

2 hours ago, Katinka said:

I'm hardly throwing myself on my sword.  I'm making posts in my spare time after getting an alert that there was activity while watching Youtube in another tab and playing Warframe in another window.  And what does it matter if it's about Platinum?  Can't it be about that and also be about disliking FOMO?  DE is a business and they make money off Platinum sales.  I'm a customer giving feedback about why I've stopped buying Platinum on a regular basis, I stopped so I could save up for this bundle and I haven't started again because I have no idea what they plan to do next time around.

I notice though that my questions were avoided.  What was meant by "everything you're trying to discuss is already covered by the term End User, so you're not even discussing the correct thing" and when do you think is the appropriate time to give feedback?

Well 2 things.

1) You somehow managed not to hit the quote button, so if someone else hadn't have replied to me in here, I wouldn't have even known this reply existed. Strange how the sycophants didnt even notice that either. Anyway, it's probably in your best interest not to highlight the idea of avoiding things.

2) You just called yourself a Customer. I've run into folks like that before, thinking they were Customers instead of End Users and disagreeing with the literal definition of both terms and the defining differences between them. It always ends up as wasted time. I included it in the post so that the weird attachment to the EULA would stop and so someone finally pointed you all in the right direction. However you don't pay me to spoon feed you legal breakdowns, so it's your job to take that info and look into it yourself. Or not. Likely not. It's not like anyone actually looked into and understood the EULA after all.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

2 hours ago, Prjkt_Shiro said:

If you cannot tell, my comment started this again after the discussion went silent.
I'm a new participant to the forums here and found them when Googling information about the Heirloom set.

Having known it existed and excitedly and patiently waiting for cross-save/platform data migration to open up on PC since I no longer had access to my Xbox device. At that time, I never looked into the Heirloom set aside from my general knowledge about it that "hey cool frost and mag skin, can't wait to get to PC". I did not know it was limited time until after I came to the forum. After I finally got my account back into an active state when migration was opened again in January '24 on PC I found out the Heirloom set was vaulted when I could not find it in the store in the game.

So I came to also write and express my disappointment and dejection regarding it. It may have ended 47 days ago, but I'm a returning player as of 20ish days ago and just found this information out. I apologize if this created frustration.

I can tell thanks. The Forum has timestamps above people who reopen dead threads. They tell you "3 weeks later" or "2 months later" and so on.

Just out of interest though, was this the only one? I'm curious if this "depression" kicked in only for the Heirloom Pack or for anything else? All the Archon Shards you've missed? The Rounds of Nightwave you've missed? What about the Twitch exclusives for watching Tennocon? I'm just genuinely curious why this is different?

[Katinka]

46 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

1) You somehow managed not to hit the quote button, so if someone else hadn't have replied to me in here, I wouldn't have even known this reply existed. Strange how the sycophants didnt even notice that either. Anyway, it's probably in your best interest not to highlight the idea of avoiding things.

Oh, so you aren't following this thread?  I assumed you were since you chimed in without having been quoted earlier.  My bad.  Wasn't trying to avoid anything.  Bit weird to be claiming I have 'sycophants' though.  The post has two likes and no further comments based on it, not like I'm going viral or anything here.

46 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

2) You just called yourself a Customer. I've run into folks like that before, thinking they were Customers instead of End Users and disagreeing with the literal definition of both terms and the defining differences between them. It always ends up as wasted time. I included it in the post so that the weird attachment to the EULA would stop and so someone finally pointed you all in the right direction. However you don't pay me to spoon feed you legal breakdowns, so it's your job to take that info and look into it yourself. Or not. Likely not. It's not like anyone actually looked into and understood the EULA after all.

Terms of Use Agreement defines "you," "your," "user," & "users" as "all customers, visitors, users of the Website and Game and its respective and related pages" so everything in the EULA that says "you" or "user" also applies to customers, which generally means anyone who buys goods or services from a business.  I have bought both physical goods and virtual services from DE so I am both a customer and a user.  It's not your job to explain the EULA, but if you make a claim about it then you have the burden of proof if you expect anyone to actually believe you.  For example if I say DE have the right to make a change to any virtual item and we as users have agreed not to bring any claim against them then I would back that point up by referring to Virtual Goods and Game Currency section c where it says:

Quote

YOU AGREE THAT YOU WON’T ASSERT OR BRING ANY CLAIM AGAINST US, OUR AFFILIATES, DIRECTORS, OFFICERS, EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, OR LICENSORS (THE “COMPANY PARTIES”) RELATING TO (A) A CLAIM THAT YOU HAVE A PROPRIETARY INTEREST IN ANY GAME CURRENCY OR VIRTUAL GOODS; OR (B) A CLAIM FOR AN ALLEGED MONETARY VALUE OF GAME CURRENCY OR VIRTUAL GOODS LOST UPON (I) DELETION OR SUSPENSION OF YOUR ACCOUNT, (II) ADJUSTMENTS TO THE GAME THAT RESULT IN THE VALUE OF VIRTUAL GOODS OR GAME CURRENCY CHANGING, OR (III) MODIFICATION, TERMINATION, OR EXPIRATION OF THIS EULA.

In particular (B)(II), adjustments to the game that result in the value of virtual goods or game currency changing, which I would think covers any suggestion that the exclusive status of Heirloom skins has a perceived value that would be lost if they were no longer exclusive.  Now, this section does apply "except as otherwise prohibited by applicable law" so there may be jurisdictions in which this part of the agreement wouldn't apply to exclusive items that lost their exclusive status, but the burden of proof would lie with the person making that claim and it is not on me to try to prove that DE can't do that as it isn't my claim.

45 minutes ago, Jarheadlead said:

Give me excalibur prime please

If it was in my power to make him available, I would.

Edited February 18 by Katinka

[Prjkt_Shiro]

52 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

I'm just genuinely curious why this is different?

 It is the only one.

Those are all game rewards that I missed in my absence from the game and absence from participating in the community (like Twitch). All of those are pretty typical for live-service games.

Yet, for me, the Heirloom pack is what drew my attention back to Warframe. Either I was too excited to return to Warframe and missed the words that explained these items were going to be limited-time, or store entries did not clarify as clearly as they could have that it was limited-time. I could not see them in-game in the Market, as I did not have access to my platform. I do not know if there was a time limit viewed within the Market, but did not see them externally. So my excitement had to be contained as I patiently waited for cross-save/migration to open. It was delayed to January. The pack was not also pushed back to include those who are waiting for those gates to open. As those gates opened, and I got my account again - I now find out that it was removed. 😔

Which led me here.

So now (at least for me) it's become less of a celebratory item, and more of a middle finger.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

4 hours ago, Katinka said:

Oh, so you aren't following this thread?  I assumed you were since you chimed in without having been quoted earlier.  My bad.  Wasn't trying to avoid anything.  Bit weird to be claiming I have 'sycophants' though.  The post has two likes and no further comments based on it, not like I'm going viral or anything here.

Terms of Use Agreement defines "you," "your," "user," & "users" as "all customers, visitors, users of the Website and Game and its respective and related pages" so everything in the EULA that says "you" or "user" also applies to customers, which generally means anyone who buys goods or services from a business.  I have bought both physical goods and virtual services from DE so I am both a customer and a user.  It's not your job to explain the EULA, but if you make a claim about it then you have the burden of proof if you expect anyone to actually believe you.  For example if I say DE have the right to make a change to any virtual item and we as users have agreed not to bring any claim against them then I would back that point up by referring to Virtual Goods and Game Currency section c where it says:

In particular (B)(II), adjustments to the game that result in the value of virtual goods or game currency changing, which I would think covers any suggestion that the exclusive status of Heirloom skins has a perceived value that would be lost if they were no longer exclusive.  Now, this section does apply "except as otherwise prohibited by applicable law" so there may be jurisdictions in which this part of the agreement wouldn't apply to exclusive items that lost their exclusive status, but the burden of proof would lie with the person making that claim and it is not on me to try to prove that DE can't do that as it isn't my claim.

If it was in my power to make him available, I would.

Oh cool. Skip past the part where you likely didn't reply on purpose and now refering back to the thing you really, really should know at this stage doesn't apply. What's the next move after this?

 

3 hours ago, Prjkt_Shiro said:

 It is the only one.

Those are all game rewards that I missed in my absence from the game and absence from participating in the community (like Twitch). All of those are pretty typical for live-service games.

Yet, for me, the Heirloom pack is what drew my attention back to Warframe. Either I was too excited to return to Warframe and missed the words that explained these items were going to be limited-time, or store entries did not clarify as clearly as they could have that it was limited-time. I could not see them in-game in the Market, as I did not have access to my platform. I do not know if there was a time limit viewed within the Market, but did not see them externally. So my excitement had to be contained as I patiently waited for cross-save/migration to open. It was delayed to January. The pack was not also pushed back to include those who are waiting for those gates to open. As those gates opened, and I got my account again - I now find out that it was removed. 😔

Which led me here.

So now (at least for me) it's become less of a celebratory item, and more of a middle finger.

Actually the Heirloom Pack also qualifies alongside the others as something you missed in your absence. There is no divide there. You weren't around for all the other stuff I mentioned, and being the 20 days returned player you yourself disclosed, you weren't around for the Heirloom either.

My question was why it's different from all the other stuff you missed too, under the assumption that you were aware they all fit in the same category. Now that that's been clarified, why is it different?

[Katinka]

43 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Oh cool. Skip past the part where you likely didn't reply on purpose and now refering back to the thing you really, really should know at this stage doesn't apply. What's the next move after this?

What thing doesn't apply, and why doesn't it?  Don't just assert your position, back it up with something.

[Slayer-.]

 

9 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Folks, come on, this is getting beyond ridiculous at this stage. The thing you're moaning about finished 47 days ago.

8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

You must be new to the Internet. _{^{We have literally nothing better to do with our time}}

 

8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

_{^{You must be new to the Internet.}} We have literally nothing better to do with our time

 

[Prjkt_Shiro]

1 hour ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Why is it different?

I have already explained this, but this will be the last time. These are the kinds of runaround conversations I expected to have back on the Destiny forums.

I saw an item for purchase and patiently waited to acquire, knowing full well I'd be jumping back into Warframe the moment I could, was vaulted before I even got near it because the cross-save/account migration tool was pushed out to January. I was unaware it was a limited time item.

You asked me why it was different. I told you why it was different.
You did not accept why I said it was different and asked it again expecting a different answer.

These were celebratory items for the whole Warframe community. 10 years. A game reaching 10 years for the first time only happens once.
There's always another Nightwave, another Archon Shard, or another Twitch drop.
There will never be another 10th Anniversary.

These gripes are my own, not yours. So I apologize that this was not the answer you were looking for.

Happy 10th, Warframe. Wish I didn't miss it. 👊

[PublikDomain]

Quote

Several previously available Supporter Packs are also coming to the in-game Market permanently this month!

Now do Heirlooms.

[----Legacy----]

On 2024-02-17 at 10:39 PM, Prjkt_Shiro said:

So now (at least for me) it's become less of a celebratory item, and more of a middle finger.

"One time never coming back" cosmetics bundled with unwanted stuff to inflate the price and not even an accolade or somethimg similar for players who have been around for 10 years, either intermitently or legit playing mainly warframe most of the time... Yeah, it was indeed less of a celebratory pack and more of a middle finger for many players.

Edited March 2 by ----Legacy----

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

On 2024-02-18 at 10:58 AM, Prjkt_Shiro said:

I apologize if this created frustration.

 

Sorry this is late, but you really don't have to apologise. Your feedback and input is just as valid and welcome as anyone else. 

I think you were articulate, fair and respectful with your posts. I imagine DE is fine with it too, even if just having a place for people late to the discussion to share their two cents, or even if people just vent a little. If they weren't, they could instruct someone to close the thread. However they also plan on making changes to Heirlooms in the future, so maybe they consider it okay to have one spot where people can air there take, positive, negative, critical, or neutral, and potentially valuable as far as future changes and modifications. 

Take care. 

[Binket_]

Hey DE.

Remember how you did this nonsense?
Me too, let's never do that again.

[Zz3rkz]

april 2024 and i 'm still terribly disapointed and sad that i couldn't get an affordable option at the time to get the mag skin,i can't get over it,the fomo,the price, the aya, the plats just to inflate the price of an allready overpriced skin packs with no option to get just one skin ...it broke something ,i still feel really bad about the heirloom skins,i will never have that mag skin that i wanted so much but couln't afford,i still feel it in my throat every time i play and see someone with the mag Heirloom skin, it remember me how much of a disabled  poor i am,how much despite loving this game,i couldn't support it,and how nothing has been done to course correct exept a tone deaf" we added more plat to justify the price"; i feel like sh*t since this moment each time i think about it and how it turned out to not being a celebration but an event that made me feel excluded as never before.

[Karyst]

2 hours ago, Zz3rkz said:

april 2024 and i 'm still terribly disapointed and sad that i couldn't get an affordable option at the time to get the mag skin,i can't get over it,the fomo,the price, the aya, the plats just to inflate the price of an allready overpriced skin packs with no option to get just one skin ...it broke something ,i still feel really bad about the heirloom skins,i will never have that mag skin that i wanted so much but couln't afford,i still feel it in my throat every time i play and see someone with the mag Heirloom skin, it remember me how much of a disabled  poor i am,how much despite loving this game,i couldn't support it,and how nothing has been done to course correct exept a tone deaf" we added more plat to justify the price"; i feel like sh*t since this moment each time i think about it and how it turned out to not being a celebration but an event that made me feel excluded as never before.

You're not excluded, having Heirloom mag or not plays no part in that. Don't feel bad over things you have no control over. Having provision is one of those things.

[Shodian87]

2 hours ago, Zz3rkz said:

april 2024 and i 'm still terribly disapointed and sad that i couldn't get an affordable option at the time to get the mag skin,i can't get over it,the fomo,the price, the aya, the plats just to inflate the price of an allready overpriced skin packs with no option to get just one skin ...it broke something ,i still feel really bad about the heirloom skins,i will never have that mag skin that i wanted so much but couln't afford,i still feel it in my throat every time i play and see someone with the mag Heirloom skin, it remember me how much of a disabled  poor i am,how much despite loving this game,i couldn't support it,and how nothing has been done to course correct exept a tone deaf" we added more plat to justify the price"; i feel like sh*t since this moment each time i think about it and how it turned out to not being a celebration but an event that made me feel excluded as never before.

You shouldn't feel bad if you weren't able to afford it. You gotta look after yourself first. You're still supporting the game by playing it. :)

These packs were just a little something extra if you wanted to get them.

[RiddleMeNani]

I'm majorly late to this party -
But here is MY two cents.

Around the times the Packs were available my job was on the line, thus I wasnt able to make enough money to keep my lights on AND spend some pocket money afterwards.

I can understand not wanting to remove the exclusivity of certain items for very special events. 10 YEARS is very special! most games do not get that kind of time and attention! But even with this fix, it still sets a bit of a bad taste for players who- like me, just did not have the opportunity for the time gate given to us. The Time-Gating was especially wrong of someone to do. 

Personally, I feel it would have been a better idea to at least let it be around till the next Anniversary event. That is just the bare minimum, if you absolutely had to give it an Exclusive Time-gate. Just like how now, the Dex Nikana is available All year of 2024. It is obviously something that CAN be done for in game rewards.

My suggestion for a future pack?

Yes! Absolutely make something new for the next big milestone, But also give the past the opportunity to be remembered. They dont have to have all the cool glyghs, badges, the platinum, or anything. Only a simple remembrance pack of past skins and accessories for big milestones. 

Believe me when I say, if its cool enough, and two for the price of a discount, many people would absolutely be willing to pay 50$ USD for a chance. 

They still retain their big purpose, a gift for the good long years due for celebration, and you can still offer the big pack with all the special stuff of a newer duo set. It's easy money and business. Keeping these 100% exclusive is just bringing back the bad blood of the Founders program, which has already been stated to never come back or be done again in different form.

That is why so many people are/were upset.