PSA PSA: Heirloom Collection Platinum Changes & Lessons

[Kerlism]

I see a lot of cope posting saying that this sort of monetization is alright purely because games like apex and path of exile do similar and it’s okay there, yet for some reason they can’t except that maybe these kinds of overpriced cosmetics in games are rather scummy innately. I feel as if this is some sort of warning for what’s to come and it’s a shame some people are so brainwashed they coddle DE into thinking this is okay, however let it be known that we shouldn’t accept this as the new norm. For now though, I think I’ll play something that respects me more than this.

Edited September 7, 2023 by (NSW)Kerlism
Hit submit by accident

[(PSN)UmbralHalo]

vor 35 Minuten schrieb Voltage:

I agree with the rest of your post and gave you an upvote as I feel the same in many ways, but I just wanted to quote you and maybe help you out (even if slightly off topic).

The FOV bug you are experiencing may be the same as the one on PC that you get from logging out and logging back in without closing the game. This is fixed by using Transference in the Orbiter twice (going into Operator/Drifter and then back into your Warframe). It's a very old issue, and if it's the same, maybe I just helped you.

Cheers. (PS: your English is not bad at all).

Oh, thank you. I'll give it a try. I really appreciate your suggestion. 

[-SilverWolfPrime-]

On 2023-08-30 at 2:31 PM, PublikDomain said:

This is not an acceptable response. I do not want to, but I am cancelling my artbook order. I cannot support this kind of monetization and will vote with my wallet accordingly. You have learned nothing and all you have chosen to celebrate is short-term greed.

There are three core problems with these packs that you are not addressing:

The "10 year supporter" accolade being an exclusive part of the bundles is offensive.
I guess it doesn't matter to you that I bought $80 of Regal Aya and a $25 Tennocon ticket in 2021, and spent $140 for a Prime Access and $25 for another Tennocon ticket in 2022, and that I bought $80 more Regal Aya and yet another $25 Tennocon ticket earlier this year, and that bought a $180 artbook the second it was announced at Tennocon, nor does it matter to you that I've bought various Tennogen items and small amounts of plat here and there since 2013.

Selling this accolade says loud and clear that you don't think anyone is a real "10 year supporter" unless they cough up another $30-$90 to show it. Frankly it's disgusting, and you're supposed to be better than this.

Give the "10 year supporter" accolade to everyone who has supported you over these 10 years, whether it be by buying plat or merch or Prime Access or tickets to see you at Tennocon. We all lift together, right?

There is no reason for the Heirloom skins to be either cash-only exclusives or time limited exclusives.
There is nothing "heirloom" about the Heirloom skins besides the marketing surrounding them, they're just Deluxe skins same as any other. To illustrate this point, please identify the two skins that are different from the others:

They're just Deluxe skins. And all Deluxe skins have (up until now) shared these two very important properties:

1. They are always available on the ingame market for plat.
   Not one Deluxe skin has ever been a cash exclusive.
2. They are never time limited exclusives.
   The very first two official Deluxe skins added in 2015 were time limited offerings, but after only a few months with the addition of Rhino Palatine you learned your lesson and made all Deluxe skins permanent market offerings, even the Proto Excalibur and Nyx Nemesis skins that predated them. They have all been this way since.

I do not understand how you can honestly say to us that "the Heirlooms were designed with the celebratory nature of this year's TennoCon and 10-year anniversary" when the only ones allowed to "celebrate" are the ones willing to give you new money for them. There is nothing to be celebrated when you're only interested in celebrating those that will fork over another $90.

Add these skins to the ingame market permanently for platinum. Now that you have added platinum to these supporter packs they are a genuinely good value that stand on their own, and there is no need or reason to continue relying on toxic, artificial exclusivity and fear of missing out.

These packs encourage the same toxic elitism and harassment felt from and because of the Founders program still to this day.

https://old.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/164ms5l/dont_be_a_$&*^_to_people_who_bought_the_heirlooms/

https://old.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/16394ip/it_has_come_to_my_attention_that_some_of_yall/

You can also find some posters here on the forums, though I won't name names, who have been engaging in negative behaviour speaking down to those that take issue with these packs.

There is not one single reason for the Heirloom skins to be cash-only FOMO exclusives, and they embody only the worst qualities of modern F2P monetization.

To turn your back on eight years of fair monetization and "F2P done right" just to make a quick buck is wrong.

It should be beneath you to resort to these sorts of tactics.

And, like, it's just bad press. Some of the top subreddit posts and news articles overshadowing an otherwise excellent Tennocon:

• The new Heirloom cosmetics are NOT available for plat, and can only be bought with real money. What does everyone think of this?
• My problem with the Heirloom Collection is that it does every microtransaction sin at once.
• Let me address some of the arguments I keep seeing regarding the Heirloom Collection.
• For the same price as the new Heirloom Collection, you could buy Baldur's Gate 3 and still save money
• The warframe heirlooom collection it's a shameful demonstration of how NOT this game made it to 10 years.
• The Heirloom Collection is the worst, most predatory thing DE has done so far, and the worst thing they could do on their most important day of the year, along with such an important celebration.
• DE, attaching a bunch of aya to a skin bundle just to inflate the price is not cool.
• DE Needs To Understand Why Players Are Frustrated with the Heirloom Collection
• Warframe fans enraged as new Tennocon skins cost more than Starfield https://www.pcgamesn.com/warframe/heirloom-skins
• Warframe players outraged over ‘exceptionally egregious’ new Heirloom Collection https://www.dexerto.com/gaming/warframe-players-outraged-over-exceptionally-egregious-new-heirloom-collection-2267131/
• "The worst, most predatory thing DE has done so far" - Warframe community expresses concerns over the expensive Heirloom Collection https://www.sportskeeda.com/mmo/the-worst-predatory-thing-de-done-far-warframe-community-expresses-concerns-expensive-heirloom-collection
• Warframe’s Heirloom Collection Draws Criticism from Community https://gameishard.gg/news/warframe-players-outraged-over-exceptionally-egregious-new-heirloom-collection/52722/
• Warframe Faces Backlash for Heirloom Collection https://%&^enwasanni.com/news/warframe-faces-backlash-for-heirloom-collection/247444/
• Warframe’s Heirloom Collection Faces Backlash from the Community https://citylife.capetown/uncategorized/warframe-players-outraged-over-exceptionally-egregious-new-heirloom-collection/354202/

There was never a reason to have launched these collections the way they are. To leave them as is and not resolve these issues tells the community where your real priorities are.

Anything I could say in regards to the unacceptable nature of the Heirloom skin packs, I direct to here. It outlines every one of my thoughts as well and I don't intend to buy more from DE until a more acceptable response is made.

You're better than this, DE. We absolutely know you're better than this.

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

17 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

Certain people in certain positions, with certain data, don't necessarily look at situations through the lens of "this is okay and this clearly isn't" because sometimes, data, trends, and other info they may have assorted and been advised on, will model and predict short term and long term negatives and positives, risks and benefits. 

People, on the whole, broadly speaking, can tend to be emotional, fickle, moody, and so on. In many situations, its still worth making a decision that can draw ire, outrage, negativity, if there is reasonable data or prediction models, that indicate a bigger payout. I am being broad because there are so many examples of this, as far as products, and human behaviour. Consider how a lot of semi famous minor celebrities can end up wealthier, more influential and powerful after scandals and controversy and a whole lot of people being critical of them. In five years, how many people in this thread will still think about this issue? I'll probably personally consider it, because I am the type to think about such things in the lens of consumer rights and gaming companies decisions and consequences but... 

This is why whilst frustration, ire, negative emotions are valid and good for creating attention, its also important to have long term memories, more objective and refined criticism, and in general advocate for consumer rights. Why laws need to be updated and refined as well. The stronger consumer rights are in general, the more ways to corral greed. With this situation specifically, whilst a bit hard and vague, could be a real point to DE, that they are trading years of goodwill and positive reputation to become "another EA, or Activision, or countless other companies" because whether an individual believes they are "that bad" or that such companies are "that bad" its arguable that its a selling point for the game, as is the idea of community, and warmth, and we all lift together, and how much they do for charity, and generally being more consumer and fan friendly. Except like I said before, thats. a bit of a vague concept sometimes to put into monetary value. Games like Diablo 4 probably don't need everyone who plays games to think its consumer friendly. Overwatch 1 probably made so much money, Overwatch 2 could fail and stop right now, that several Activision Blizzard higher ups could get additional yachts, summer homes. Why would they care if some "poor people online" are complaining about the games Devs. 

"Clearly isn't okay" isn't necessarily something that certain people need to worry about, when they can think "in two months, most people unhappy will probably not care anymore, and if they do... they were probably already unsatisfied anyway, and we made up the difference in players who are fine and or new anyway". 

To be super clear though, none of above is defending such behaviour, but we as consumers need to understand it to address it, short term and long term. In general, and specifically. Hope that makes sense. Cheers! 

I don't know why they would just put a 70 to 90 dollar pack out there without thinking that a 25 to 30 pack would do very good it would probably be there best seller if they did that 

Edited September 7, 2023 by (XBOX)toughdragon17
Typo

[StalwartSpirit]

1 hour ago, ConDucktorWhirl said:

So did you guys enjoy your break @[DE]Megan? Because I didn't enjoy you taking that little break right after you committed this little #*!%ey wuckey. Answer. The. Criticism.

It wasn't just a random break, DE should be able to take holidays off. Also I'm pretty sure (100% sure) Megan is just the messenger here and not the one deciding how these packs are handled. This sort of thing smells like a corporate decision. The platinum bandaid is probably all they can do for now, and hopefully future skins (if they happen) will be handled different.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

7 minutes ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

I don't know why they would just put a 70 to 90 dollar pack out there without thinking that a 25 to 30 pack wouldn't do good that would probably be there best seller if they did that 

 

Same.

If I had to hazard a guess, and to be clear, its really just a very blind guess, as I don't know how such decisions are made, or who makes them (though I do know that DE has a lot of important and people in important positions that we rarely see or hear about, and that the people we do have names and faces to, generally tend to be on more of the creative and gameplay side, than the business/financial), then... There was probably some internal data and research combined with trends and patterns elsewhere in the games industry that they have looked into and made comparisons with, that suggested to them the price points and ways to make that price point seem more appealing. 

Its not necessarily true that lower tier bundles/price points would lead to greater sales. It might/could be, but they probably have people whose livelihood and career is looking at lots of info and data and trying to use actual real data to find out relative pricing points and how/why consumers react to them. Which doesn't mean they can't be wrong, but also doesn't mean, random anonymous people online, with no risk or data can make as consistent as good as predictions about what would/wouldn't sell. 

Not that I disagree with where you are coming from. Ideally? Whoever the people who are in DE who discuss such issues, is getting the message, that a substantial portion of the fanbase isn't cool with - well a lot of criticisms, points, arguments people have made. Hopefully more than anticipated. A cynic could say, they may have anticipated backlash, and left wiggle room to say, add Plat, but are otherwise still making substantial profits, so much so, a "bit" of negativity doesn't matter. 

[Cerikus]

20 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

-snip-

I will just drop this one here again: https://www.pathofexile.com/purchase

They have 10$, 30$, 40$, 60$, 70$ and 90$ packs.
All of those are "inflated" with aditional premium currency (Points, which can be used to buy aditional cosmetics or stash tabs).
All of those are cosmetics only - not affecting gameplay or power.
All of those are time limited and leave the store forever after the current season ends.

Inb4 I am harrased again for supposedly condoning predatory tactics. I am NOT saying it's ok, but vast majority of PoE players will tell you their monetization system is great and fair. The game is F2P and you can play the whole campaign with no obstacle. Only if you want to grind the endgame, you really need to invest into stash tabs, which you can easily compare to frame and weapon slots in Warframe, but it's fair to mention that you cannot farm Points in PoE. So stash tabs are their reliable income. But then again, you buy them once and you own them forever.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Cerikus

[(NSW)Master2873]

8 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

They eliminated the cheapest packages so that people only buy the most expensive one.  I mean, can they remove packages without legal problems, but they can't add them? Ridiculous.

This exactly. They wanted them to be as expensive as possible (to obviously make more per purchase), and during the most anticipated time for Warframe with the announcements, and what they shown at TennoCon to try to reduce the blowback. The leak didn't do them any favors, but I have a feeling it would have gone the same way anyways. It's too egregious not to.

Honestly the best way to put it is to show somebody who knows nothing about Warframe the skins then see their reaction, then you show them the price and look at the reaction then. If they then want to go down the rabbit hole of how it's valued out, I almost bet their reaction will not change, but they would also be in a better position to have the regal aya.

Also, adding packs wouldn't take away what people already bought. People bought what they bought because they wanted it. I almost bet that a majority of people here that don't care, and clearly like what they bought wouldn't have changed their mind if they could buy the skin separately or without all the added fluff. The lack of options just is lost sales overall for people who don't want to spend that much, or potentially buy things they can't use or want, let alone afford with the current economy.

$90 of groceries is not as much as it was just a few years ago not counting shrinkflation companies are doing with products, which goes right in line with the piddly Platinum included years ago with regal aya, and now before this "change" for the packs. There's plenty of people and kids now who can't even afford homes, DE has the gall to ask insane prices for a new coat of paint for playable characters in a game that adds no new content, so you can keep doing the same content ad nauseam. People would sooner buy a NEW AAA game for that price, and have left over money for some snacks, or fast food. There isn't much of a way to look at this other than price gouging for the sake of profits, and banking that whales will keep them afloat, while also eroding their trust with the player base.

 

I'm obviously not a founder, or been around as long as majority of the people playing this game, but I can almost assure you that my disappointment is probably just as immeasurable as yours if not more with this, and what it could mean for the future of this game. It's put me off of playing the game more, but it doesn't help I hit MR 30 not long ago, and can't find much more to do, but it appears that DE not only wanted to S#&$ the bed, but want to lie in it too.

 

PS: Gotta love how this was to celebrate a past Warframe designer, but it seems more like a slap in the face. DE literally made his work one of the most divisive and contentious things of the year, and also want to remove it and to keep people from buying it and enjoying it at reasonable prices, or with platinum and game. It sounds like they literally want you to forget about it, just like they want you to forget about this whole situation. What a way to remember and treat an employee. A Warframe player who died got immortalized in the game (for now), and they treat and old artist like this...

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Just now, Cerikus said:

I will just drop this one here again: https://www.pathofexile.com/purchase

They have 10$, 30$, 40$, 60$, 70$ and 90$ packs.
All of those are "inflated" with aditional premium currency (Points, which can be used to buy aditional cosmetics or stash tabs).
All of those are cosmetics only - not affecting gameplay or power.
All of those are time limited and leave the store forever after the current season ends.

Inb4 I am harrased again for condoning predatory tactics. I am NOT saying it's ok, but vast majority of PoE players will tell you their monetization system is great and fair.
The game is F2P and you can play the whole campaign with no obstacle. Only if you want to grind the endgame, you really need to invest into stash tabs, which you can easily compare to frame and weapon slots in Warframe.

 

Its okay, I know you got some heat earlier in the thread. I think some of it was unwarranted, in the sense, many, many pages ago, in this thread, there seemed like a genuine misunderstanding. You also offered an olive branch out of sorts, by explaining you may have misunderstood/misinterpreted, but it didn't seem like many actually wanted to address that part of your message, they sort of just addressing other aspects. Which also isn't necessarily a bad thing on their part, but... My basic point here is, I have read enough of the thread to know you have a more nuanced take and don't like being put into "sides", so I make no assumptions, don't consider you i a "side" and won't harass you. I think you have made some great and decent points in this thread (even if I also think, many of the people who have replied and argued with you, have as well).  So all good friend. 

I don't play PoE and wouldn't based on what you have told me. I also don't know whether thats true about the vast majority of PoE players. It could be, but I think such things may be more complicated to, to consider. For example were those players conditioned for a while to expect that from the game? Fans of a certain music artist, wouldn't be surprising to hear that a majority liked the latest release from the artist. Thats kind of the thing, if they are PoE players, they have probably been conditioned and have come to anticipate and expect certain price points and offers/bundles and limited time exclusives.

For example, I played early Overwatch. I am pretty critical of lootboxes and think they should be regulated better, but since the beginning, lootboxes were there. That doesn't mean that myself or others wouldn't become increasingly more critical with what that game went through and turned into today. Thats true of Warframe as well, and perceptions, expectations and assumptions. I think many of the anger and criticism from some, is because we didn't anticipate this, or expect DE to put such a bundle out, with some of these elements (for some its separate, for some its the combo). For some, maybe they either did or have apathy, and why the potential disconnect from others and arguments. 

Of course individuals purchasing habits, ethics, thresholds and tolerances can all differ. It can be a difficult thing for a business to think "we want to broadly appeal to as much potential customers as we can" as well as "can we benefit if we make ourselves more appealing, by being more consumer friendly, or relatively more ethical, or more creatively independent and desiring that we get more creative control over our own projects, than necessarily trying to appeal to the broadest group of people?", since those can potentially clash. 

Do you hate World War 2 shooters for example? I assume you have nothing against them right? Well the reason we even have Warframe, is back when DE was looking for Publishers, they turned down offers to make a huge big World War 2 shooter because that wasn't what they wanted to work on. They could have had an easier and more profitable time, conforming to what the games industry wanted them to, but they decided to take a risk instead. 

I don't know that much about PoE, but there are other games out there, I do know relatively more about, that are anti consumer, engage in predatory practices, are much more motivated and instructed by greed, and where business aspects not only infringe on the creative aspects, but are so populated and controlled, by people whose interests and motivations are so greed based, its actually counter productive... and failing in that respect as well (I could go into this more if anyone wants, but its a pretty complicated subject. Basically there is a lot we do know about how many business ideas, systems, approaches, marketing and strategies could be optimised and improved. Incidentally, a lot of the ways, involve treating the human elements within business much better. We can have case examples of this, and understanding as to why this is (like how in certain situations, workers who are given more than adequate breaks, good free time, more days off, good support, have basic living taken care of etc are way more productive, creative, suffer less burn out, function better, make less mistakes, etc However... implementing such practices and understandings into industries and business can take decades or longer, for a variety of reasons, one being that many people in positions of power who need to be involved with such changes, just don't understand and have biases and outdated beliefs. 

So its not even about "well they are a business, they need to make money too" its more complicated as well. Often the business side of the equation is flawed and lacking too. Games industry wide. I don't know enough specific details about DE's internal structuring and processes to say anything about that. I'd assume they are probably more relatively competent than most for certain reasons. 

[Darkbring]

37 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

I will just drop this one here again: https://www.pathofexile.com/purchase

They have 10$, 30$, 40$, 60$, 70$ and 90$ packs.
All of those are "inflated" with aditional premium currency (Points, which can be used to buy aditional cosmetics or stash tabs).
All of those are cosmetics only - not affecting gameplay or power.
All of those are time limited and leave the store forever after the current season ends.

Inb4 I am harrased again for supposedly condoning predatory tactics. I am NOT saying it's ok, but vast majority of PoE players will tell you their monetization system is great and fair. The game is F2P and you can play the whole campaign with no obstacle. Only if you want to grind the endgame, you really need to invest into stash tabs, which you can easily compare to frame and weapon slots in Warframe, but it's fair to mention that you cannot farm Points in PoE. So stash tabs are their reliable income. But then again, you buy them once and you own them forever.

We think Warframe's monetization was more fair than PoE's, until DE pulled this, and we don't want it to change EVEN into PoE or anything like that.

[(NSW)Master2873]

1 minute ago, ConDucktorWhirl said:

I mean. I can just start tagging rebecca. Since shes head now and all

She's creative lead, and probably has little say in this as well. I'm with you I don't like this either, but let's not get too rash. I can be hyperbolic, and harsh too, as you can potentially see with my posts here too, but it would be nice to get some explanation too. I take it the lack of anything else said says it all so far.

I would want at the very least, if they can't change anything else for some reason, at least give the player base an actual explanation as to why. Be transparent as possible, and answer many questions the community has given.

[PollexMessier]

3 minutes ago, ConDucktorWhirl said:

I mean. I can just start tagging rebecca. Since shes head now and all

She's the creative director. She's not in charge of marketing or financial decisions. She's not the head of the whole company. She's a department manager.

[Cerikus]

1 minute ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Its okay, I know you got some heat earlier in the thread. I think some of it was unwarranted, in the sense, many, many pages ago, in this thread, there seemed like a genuine misunderstanding. You also offered an olive branch out of sorts, by explaining you may have misunderstood/misinterpreted, but it didn't seem like many actually wanted to address that part of your message, they sort of just addressing other aspects. Which also isn't necessarily a bad thing on their part, but... My basic point here is, I have read enough of the thread to know you have a more nuanced take and don't like being put into "sides", so I make no assumptions, don't consider you i a "side" and won't harass you. I think you have made some great and decent points in this thread (even if I also think, many of the people who have replied and argued with you, have as well).  So all good friend. 

Thank you. I really appreciate you saying this.

3 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I don't play PoE and wouldn't based on what you have told me. I also don't know whether thats true about the vast majority of PoE players. It could be, but I think such things may be more complicated to, to consider. For example were those players conditioned for a while to expect that from the game? Fans of a certain music artist, wouldn't be surprising to hear that a majority liked the latest release from the artist. Thats kind of the thing, if they are PoE players, they have probably been conditioned and have come to anticipate and expect certain price points and offers/bundles and limited time exclusives.

I wasn't playing PoE in the begining of its life time, but it has been like that for years, so players probably are used to that. One thing I appreciate about their premium currency is the conversion rate. 5$ = 50 Points, 10$ = 100 Points, 20$ = 200 Points. There is no buy more, get more OR oh no.. if only you bought the higher pack, you would have enough to buy battle pass.

8 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

For example, I played early Overwatch. I am pretty critical of lootboxes and think they should be regulated better, but since the beginning, lootboxes were there. That doesn't mean that myself or others wouldn't become increasingly more critical with what that game went through and turned into today. Thats true of Warframe as well, and perceptions, expectations and assumptions. I think many of the anger and criticism from some, is because we didn't anticipate this, or expect DE to put such a bundle out, with some of these elements (for some its separate, for some its the combo). For some, maybe they either did or have apathy, and why the potential disconnect from others and arguments. 

The Overwatch situation is very interesting. OW1 was objectively more predatory and more immoral, because it had lootboxes, however the way OW2 is monetized is awful. OW1 was game you had to purchase. OW2 is free. Players of OW1 were screwed over by Blizzard, because they lost so much. Byt my honest opinion is that OW1 was monetized more fairly, even though it was inherently immoral. It's never only black and white.

I gotta say that I am surprised that people are so surprised ...
- DE've been selling limited time things for money 
- DE've been selling cosmetics for money only for years.
- We've had lootbox that gets traded around for platinum for years.
- I made several very angry posts about locking cosmetics and lore behind purchase of expensive bundles full of useless stuff and most people shut me down and said  I was overreacting. 

Maybe it's that they advertised it so much? Maybe it's that it's money AND time limited?

18 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I don't know that much about PoE, but there are other games out there, I do know relatively more about, that are anti consumer, engage in predatory practices, are much more motivated and instructed by greed, and where business aspects not only infringe on the creative aspects, but are so populated and controlled, by people whose interests and motivations are so greed based, its actually counter productive... and failing in that respect as well (I could go into this more if anyone wants, but its a pretty complicated subject. Basically there is a lot we do know about how many business ideas, systems, approaches, marketing and strategies could be optimised and improved. Incidentally, a lot of the ways, involve treating the human elements within business much better. We can have case examples of this, and understanding as to why this is (like how in certain situations, workers who are given more than adequate breaks, good free time, more days off, good support, have basic living taken care of etc are way more productive, creative, suffer less burn out, function better, make less mistakes, etc However... implementing such practices and understandings into industries and business can take decades or longer, for a variety of reasons, one being that many people in positions of power who need to be involved with such changes, just don't understand and have biases and outdated beliefs. 

Yup. I know many of those as well. What I hate especially is the science of player engagement and forcing players waste time... or they can spend a little bit of money. Or as Diablo Immortal has shown us "+800% value" - you'd be stupid not to buy it. The fact is that what DE are currently doing is such a mild non-issue compared to industry standards that it says a lot about current state of the industry. It's just all sad. I am happy though that players are pushing back in this situation, but I simply cannot view DE as a predatory evil that's out to get us, which seems to be the sentiment of many people. The bundles are not good, but they are not evil.

[Cerikus]

20 minutes ago, Darkbring said:

We think Warframe's monetization was more fair than PoE's, until DE pulled this, and we don't want it to change EVEN into PoE or anything like that.

Very fair thing to say. Do you feel like it's the same now or just closer to PoE?
I mean you can easily play everything in Warframe for free. The bundle is just cosmetics.
Which is the same for PoE, but in PoE on the other hand you pretty much MUST buy the stash tabs to be able to play endgame.

[Binket_]

12 hours ago, leadwolf1 said:

I think the pack should be limited and keep the price, not all but most grind get parts and sell for plat buy what they want without spending money and are now mad they may have to spend. Also only founders received excal prime so why not make special skins that are limited. I would like to even taken one step futher and make a special skin that can be put on any frame a unique skin different than any frame in the game let the artists imagination run wild.

Not even gonna grace that with a proper reply.

11 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And Warframe used to have that! And there were many who said "no hair off my back it's just Lato/Braton Vandal/Athodai/Ignis Wraith/etc." And why do you think we don't have this anymore? Because the community pushed for it. You might not care about this latest escalation but plenty of us do. This crosses our lines.

Hell, pretty sure they mentioned that the Mk1 weapons are going to poof into nothingness now.
Which I have to question how they're going to go about that.

Knowing DE, it's probably going to be put in the same boat as Channeling and Operator's Void Blast.
"Still in the game, but good luck getting/activating it normally."
So that MR you could gain is just locked to the people who already had it.

... thus, we start this whole debacle over again.
_{It also really sucks for Channeling. because it was a GOOD idea that was just unused for the longest time.}

11 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

F2P players also fill a really important role in the game's economy and shouldn't be looked down on or minimized.

Just like how those who support the game with money aren't that bad. (WHEN DONE PROPERLY)
It's just when garbage like the Heirloom Bundle comes into play and it divides us like this.

9 hours ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

Now I understand your plight as a picture is worth a thousand words!  I would be livid if I just spent $80 so I could buy something from the Market, that up until now, has always been available for Platinum purchase (i.e. Deluxe Skins).  So now the skins you might want to buy are CASH ONLY that includes even MORE PLATINUM that you CAN NOT use to buy the skins, you want to buy!  I mean there really isn't a debate here, it's CLEAR DE has pulled a fast one on you and all the other players who actively buy Platinum in order to go shopping at the same store that now says,  NOPE, sorry, we don't accept Platinum to buy what you really want and you won't be supporting us unless you buy this special pack, for a LIMITED TIME with CASH ONLY.

... What part of that wasn't clear prior?
Also, that's like... the 3rd highest priority of the issues here.

Did you just miss everything we posted here or....?

7 hours ago, (XBOX)LadyWinterstorm said:

The Heirloom pack probably from a mystery behind the scenes person that is not allowed to be named

DE's local Voldemort. Hired to be the scourge of all that is good.
The one who makes all of the bad ideas and the rest of the crew has to fight them back.

They wear a cape that covered in paint, a stupid-looking bucket helmet and is armed with a variety of vials that contains fortune-cookie nonsense.

If that sounds like a stupid concept for a person? That's the point.

7 hours ago, (PSN)Humblemud said:

DE keeps on nerfing these things

Realistically, it's more the issue that DE isn't nerfing the things that matter.

Stuff like Revenant's Mesmer Skin being ungodly power, Xaku's Grasp of Lohk enabling to AFK content with little hassle.
Instead, they nerf Vigorous Swap in Dog Days-- because that's clearly a priority.

Like, I get it. It's not intentional for it in the event... but the damn takes FOREVER.
8995 Pearls to buy every Event-Exclusive item ONCE.
If you get roughly 60 pearls per run of the 4th mission (as I see many people do), you'll need to do that 150 times.
1 run = 5 minutes. 150 runs = 12 hours and 30 minutes.

When people like me ask for things like Mesmer Skin to get nerfed?
It's because it drains engagement with the game.
I sincerely can't bring myself to play the game these days because of it.

... and unlike the Heirloom Bundle? A LOT more people are willing to defend because they think it's fun.
No, it's just braindead.

7 hours ago, (PSN)Humblemud said:

Where are the Raids? I never really cared about them, but I know a lot of people who did.

The unfortunate truth is that Raids will NEVER come back.
Many players can barely form a cohesive team let alone tolerate the puzzles and fundamentals of how they worked.

While they were notoriously buggy, that wasn't the only reason for their removal.
It was just because games can't afford having elaborate raids like this anymore.

Besides, how do you balance something like Raids when Wukong and Revenant exist.
Two infamous Warframes for trivializing content across the board?

 

The Heirloom Bundle is marketed with strategies focused more on removing the "game" from Warframe and making it more "video".
When all you're really doing is following the yellow brick road and paying 7$ a pop to put more bricks in the square hole.

Raids can't play well with that same demographic, as it requires players to be cunning, vigilant and focused.
Something that is now lost to time... and so raids too vanished.

6 hours ago, (NSW)Kerlism said:

I see a lot of cope posting saying that this sort of monetization is alright purely because games like apex and path of exile do similar and it’s okay there, yet for some reason they can’t except that maybe these kinds of overpriced cosmetics in games are rather scummy innately. I feel as if this is some sort of warning for what’s to come and it’s a shame some people are so brainwashed they coddle DE into thinking this is okay, however let it be known that we shouldn’t accept this as the new norm. For now though, I think I’ll play something that respects me more than this.

You know what really makes this hit harder?

I can think back to any time in my life- no matter how depressed, stubborn or stupid I was as a younger me- and be appalled that people just... LET this happen run as rampant as it does.
That's over 20 years of my life where I'd stand against these kinds of ungodly measures.

... and yet people would say it's "fine".
To a degree, I don't know if I should be annoyed at DE or furious that the species I share my genomes with says such heresy.
^{I often curse myself for having the sight to see the road ahead, not because I regret it-- but because nobody else wants to heed the warnings.}

1 hour ago, Cerikus said:

but vast majority of PoE players will tell you their monetization system is great and fair.

Half certain it's to keep people from dropping the game right away, so they can keep playing the game.

Very common to see such things in MMOs, some do it without even realizing it.
It's also I openly mock and call out people who do it blindly.

"Warframe has a great community!"... yeah, until you want to do anything fun.
I've had a number of situations where a Khora joins the squad and I just leave.
I know words won't reach 'em as they're stuck on the idea of spamming Strangledome.

But yeah, it's why I often go by the "Credit where credit is due" system.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

6 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Thank you. I really appreciate you saying this.

 

No worries. I wanted to say something earlier, but this thread moves at a pretty fast pace. It usually puts me a few pages back, plus sinamanthediva stepped in at one point, to try and advocate for a bit more relaxed conversation. Plus sometimes tone and attitude can be hard to convey with text, which can led to misunderstandings and the like. Normally this can be navigated decently when people have reason and incentive to agree with each other, so if there is a contentious issue, well, that can go side ways a little. 

Either way, I hope your spirits are high. 

 

11 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

I wasn't playing PoE in the begining of its life time, but it has been like that for years, so players probably are used to that. One thing I appreciate about their premium currency is the conversion rate. 5$ = 50 Points, 10$ = 100 Points, 20$ = 200 Points. There is no buy more, get more OR oh no.. if only you bought the higher pack, you would have enough to buy battle pass.

 

I did do a cursory search on PoE, just to be a little bit more informed, and the player base does seem pretty positive and also helpful and friendly to people looking to know more on the game, based on many of the question and reply threads I saw. Which is great. Reminds me a bit of Warframe community, must e why there is some overlap with some of the playerbase. I do think the conditioning is a big factor though. For example Street Fight 6 had some skin controversy a few weeks back. I imagine because, even though so far SFVI has mostly had a lot of positive news story and reaction AFAIK, and they have had some pricey skins in the past... Many weren't predicting the particular price point for the Turtles. I remember one FGC podcast, reaction being "these prices are alright I guess" until they realised the price wasn't for the entire roster and just for one skin. Now if Diablo IV or Overwatch did something similar, price point wise, well it wouldn't be as newsworthy, necessarily, in comparison. People sort of expect that stuff, for those games, they need to push such boundaries of expectations... like DE would have to cancel Whispers in the Walls, Warframe 1999 and make Soulframe PVP with lootboxes and PTW to try match in that aspect. 

Not knowing that much about PoE that does sound nice about the conversation rate. 

 

20 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

The Overwatch situation is very interesting. OW1 was objectively more predatory and more immoral, because it had lootboxes, however the way OW2 is monetized is awful. OW1 was game you had to purchase. OW2 is free. Players of OW1 were screwed over by Blizzard, because they lost so much. Byt my honest opinion is that OW1 was monetized more fairly, even though it was inherently immoral. It's never only black and white.

I gotta say that I am surprised that people are so surprised ...
- DE've been selling limited time things for money 
- DE've been selling cosmetics for money only for years.
- We've had lootbox that gets traded around for platinum for years.
- I made several very angry posts about locking cosmetics and lore behind purchase of expensive bundles full of useless stuff and most people shut me down and said  I was overreacting. 

Maybe it's that they advertised it so much? Maybe it's that it's money AND time limited?

 

I feel a bit differently about Overwatch. Not that I disagree, just that those games and circumstance are... that could be a big conversation on its own, with a lot of different talking points. I mostly brought it up, because its an easy comparison point of sorts. Like I don't know all the employees of DE, but I feel fairly confident that they probably... probably don't have a senior executive stealing breast milk and harassing woman or anything. Plus its Canada, so the milk would be in bags right? For me personally, whilst it can be hard to actually know, it does have an effect on how I spend my money. Warframe is game, I have spent more money on than any other single game. I doubt the majority of game consumers spend their money this way, but I am also probably not alone. There are lots of games, companies, studios etc I won't support, and some I will try go out of my way to. Other variables accounted for. 

Speaking for myself (well that and speculating), I knew DE has been selling limited time items, but consider there a significant difference between say weapon skins and Warframe skins of this particular quality. Like, there is a reason why DE themselves call them prestigious, and making a big deal out of them. Its like if they released a Warframe that could triple your resources and it worked on Steel Essence. Well Smeeta can double too, potentially, more, and Khora, Nekros exist... sure, but... So its about the greater context. Well for some at least. There can be lots of little variables that add up. For example? My criticisms would be largely the same as they are now... However, I would be a bit more personally annoyed, if the Heirloom skins were for Nidus and Mesa. Why? Well for me personally, I like them more, so not having their skins, would sting more. To me, its very natural that more people, generally care about these skins, more than a Tennocon pack 2020 emote, or Pistol Skin. 

Price points can matter too, regarding DE selling cosmetics. Consistency can help. Like most people roughly know that Price Access and Prime Accessories are usally consistent price wise. What does that mean? Well... usually with Prime Access, you get complaints about the quality of the bundles... Like subjective criticisms around quality. Not the actual price point, because thats been established. So no surprise. The criticisms may be... "This Syandana sucks, and has no effects. This doesn't seem like Prime Armour, only this Warframe will get use out of an Alt Prime helmet" etc. 

Ah that sucks, sorry to hear. Personally I try to avoid accusing others of overreacting or the like, just because I don't find it particularly helpful or useful. I mean, I might question it to them, but usually from a place of sincerity and goodwill, as far as getting them to reconsider, and I'll be just as willing to reconsider alongside them too. 

I think, like a few other users have said a few times now, its like... a combination of factors, which all intensify each other. For some individuals, some points might stick out more sorely than others, but for many its combination of factors, some potentially worse than others. For myself personally, the limited time exclusive is the most egregious aspect, but... specifically for skins of this quality. Still critical of past packs, but I think sincere desirability is an important factor. This Supporter Pack has drawn more negativity and criticism than any other, and some may question why, or point at other packs, but like... obviously the difference here is that people just care more about these skins in particular, than past bundles cosmetics. This is true of like most things. Its why the "we have X at home" is a meme. 

I think the pricing is a sore point too, because of that as well, but probably some Frost and Mag mains frustrated by the inability for a separate bundle too, plus the cost inflation from Plat and RA... 

Cheers! 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

51 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Yup. I know many of those as well. What I hate especially is the science of player engagement and forcing players waste time... or they can spend a little bit of money. Or as Diablo Immortal has shown us "+800% value" - you'd be stupid not to buy it. The fact is that what DE are currently doing is such a mild non-issue compared to industry standards that it says a lot about current state of the industry. It's just all sad. I am happy though that players are pushing back in this situation, but I simply cannot view DE as a predatory evil that's out to get us, which seems to be the sentiment of many people. The bundles are not good, but they are not evil

 

Oh my bad, and apologies, I forget to quote this part too. 

Yeah I agree. I do think DE is in a tricky position, because I do believe they are doing quite well money wise, however the world we live in, the industry they are in, doing well often isn't enough, for some, in positions where they have influence and power. I don't mean people like Rebecca either. Contrary to some sentiment in this thread, AFAIK structure wise, there people above her in terms of decision making authority and also expertise. Those people, may also have to answer to other people too. Warframe could be doing really well, but is it say... doing as well as Destiny? Why? Why not? What can DE do, to be doing as well as Destiny? Well, someone may have thought that Heirloom collections could be a way, and I am not enough of an expert to say with certainty that they are right or wrong. I do think that DE has carved out a lot of unusual goodwill and positive sentiment from gamers, for some of its monetisation practices and thus... Benefit from not doing what a lot of the standard industry does. Before I got into Warframe, for years, different gaming channels, and friends, and a few Devs etc have talked about the game positively, for being more in tuned to its fans and players, more transparent, more Devstreams, and interactions, and Tennocons, and the community is so friendly and helpful, because the actual in game explanations are... and DE took these risks, and.. lots of positivity and warm feelings, and goodwill, from being better than the standard. Except they can't really have both. They can't be the consumer friendly, customer conscious, relatable, transparent, as well as the people behind Regal Aya (original plans) and this Heirloom collection. At least to many. Again, some, those may not be at odds. Even if I was one of the latter though, I would still have to realise and acknowledge that a lot of people don't feel the same way, for reasons valid and sincere to them. 

We definitely do agree on a few other things though too, like I don't necessarily view DE as a predatory evil, either. Though a part of that is ignorance on my part about DE's internal workings. Does make me think of Chesterton's Fence a little. Someone at DE being "We have offered limited time exclusives with cosmetics before? Weapon skins? How about we do some really awesome mega deluxe Warframe skins for the Supporters pack this year?", "well... we haven't really done that before" someone else at DE says... "Not for skins for Warframes... at this price point, for limited time... in a package with Plat and Regal Aya... could backfire and make unhappy fans" to the response of "Nah, they'll get over it, and lots of people will pay that much. Just announce it at Tennocon, when everyone will be watching and be at their most hype and positive, and willing to spend real money, and this way, we can al get Christmas bonuses!", Of course just random speculation and guessing, just to emphasis I really don't know. 

Oh and even though I don't feel that way? I don't really personally get frustrated or bothered about anything. I mean on a personal level. Its just my personality and temperament. So I try not to judge others for having strong reactions or frustrations, even if I don't agree (or if I do agree, but don't demonstrate that same sort of extreme expression). I think thats important to remember too. Frustrated people act frustrated, angry people act angry, yadda yadda. 

Thanks and my apologies again. 

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, Cerikus said:

I gotta say that I am surprised that people are so surprised ...

26 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Maybe it's that they advertised it so much? Maybe it's that it's money AND time limited?

Yes, and that they're Deluxe skins. As much as DE fluffs them up in their marketing, there is no difference in any measurable way between these and any of the other Deluxe skins in the game. And while Deluxe skins were once time limited, that was only for a short while 8 years ago! It's been so long since we last had time limited exclusive Deluxe skins I'm now an uncle with nieces entering school! And Deluxe skins have never been cash only, even when released as big-ticket items in Supporter packs.

By rough count there are what... 54 Deluxe skins before these? So is it really so surprising that people who have had 8 years to get used to the way these items are always sold are surprised when that suddenly changes and goes in the complete opposite direction? And when people always push back on FOMO, exclusivity, and cash-only offerings no matter how big or small they are, I'm more surprised that there are people who still can't predict the community's response to these kinds of things.

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

28 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

.. What part of that wasn't clear prior?
Also, that's like... the 3rd highest priority of the issues here.

It didn't register until I saw the actual Platinum purchase receipt, as I stated a picture is worth a thousand ($$$) words!  As far as the numbering scheme you seem to have placed on the order of importance regarding the issues being discussed, for me at least, I find the 10 Year Accolade is THE issue that is extremely disingenuous to every player who have been actively contributing to the financial success of DE throughout the past 10 years.  This is a 10 year Celebration for Warframe and to tell it's players that only those that buy this ONE-TIME ONLY COSMETIC BUNDLE, will be officially acknowledged by DE as a valued 10 year supporter, is simply disgusting and disrespectful.  I don't care how much they charge for a bloated overpriced cosmetic bundle, but do NOT tell all of us that have sunk more money than I care to admit into this game, that our past contributions are meaningless and don't deserve recognition unless we pay, yet again, for this Heirloom Bundle.  It needs to be removed or re-labeled into something less disrespectful to players who maybe can't afford or just don't like the skins, yet still deserve to be recognized for their support over the past 10 years. 

I appreciate your time spent on responding to me and many other players here with your fancy multi-quote formatting schema; it makes it easier for newcomers to the topic to get a quick synopsis of the main points before they can be intimidated by the 70 + pages they have yet to read!  I also appreciate your humor as it is much needed here to break the tedium of waiting for DE to say SOMETHING, before the pitchforks and torches are taken in hand!

Good Chats!

P.S.
Sorry about the excessive use of prepositional phrases, but  it's late and I'm too tired to restructure my sentences. 

[Cerikus]

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

No worries. I wanted to say something earlier, but this thread moves at a pretty fast pace. It usually puts me a few pages back, plus sinamanthediva stepped in at one point, to try and advocate for a bit more relaxed conversation. Plus sometimes tone and attitude can be hard to convey with text, which can led to misunderstandings and the like. Normally this can be navigated decently when people have reason and incentive to agree with each other, so if there is a contentious issue, well, that can go side ways a little. 

Either way, I hope your spirits are high. 

I should have just dropped that discussion and leave, but I couldn't force myself to do, because it was too personal. @(XBOX)sinamanthediva always has my back <3.
The worst thing that saddens me the most is that the Heirloom collection brought an atmosphere in which it's so easy to be mean to each other.

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

did do a cursory search on PoE, just to be a little bit more informed, and the player base does seem pretty positive and also helpful and friendly to people looking to know more on the game, based on many of the question and reply threads I saw. Which is great. Reminds me a bit of Warframe community, must e why there is some overlap with some of the playerbase. I do think the conditioning is a big factor though. For example Street Fight 6 had some skin controversy a few weeks back. I imagine because, even though so far SFVI has mostly had a lot of positive news story and reaction AFAIK, and they have had some pricey skins in the past... Many weren't predicting the particular price point for the Turtles. I remember one FGC podcast, reaction being "these prices are alright I guess" until they realised the price wasn't for the entire roster and just for one skin. Now if Diablo IV or Overwatch did something similar, price point wise, well it wouldn't be as newsworthy, necessarily, in comparison. People sort of expect that stuff, for those games, they need to push such boundaries of expectations... like DE would have to cancel Whispers in the Walls, Warframe 1999 and make Soulframe PVP with lootboxes and PTW to try match in that aspect. 

Not knowing that much about PoE that does sound nice about the conversation rate. 

I think there is overlap because both games "scratch the itch" in a similar way. Both are about massive destruction of hoards of enemies in many different ways. Both are f2p and both are monetized very fairly and player friendly (compared to industry standards). You are right about the conditioning. Most people laugh off the predatory tactics Diablo 4 has, because after Immortal everybody is conditioned to expect the worst. And Warframe compared to D4 is the most fair monetization, even if they sold time limited deluxe skins for money every 3 months. It's all about perspective.

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Like I don't know all the employees of DE, but I feel fairly confident that they probably... probably don't have a senior executive stealing breast milk and harassing woman or anything.

This cracked me up. I am almost sure you are right about this.

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

For me personally, whilst it can be hard to actually know, it does have an effect on how I spend my money. Warframe is game, I have spent more money on than any other single game. I doubt the majority of game consumers spend their money this way, but I am also probably not alone. There are lots of games, companies, studios etc I won't support, and some I will try go out of my way to. Other variables accounted for. 

Speaking for myself (well that and speculating), I knew DE has been selling limited time items, but consider there a significant difference between say weapon skins and Warframe skins of this particular quality. Like, there is a reason why DE themselves call them prestigious, and making a big deal out of them. Its like if they released a Warframe that could triple your resources and it worked on Steel Essence. Well Smeeta can double too, potentially, more, and Khora, Nekros exist... sure, but... So its about the greater context. Well for some at least. There can be lots of little variables that add up. For example? My criticisms would be largely the same as they are now... However, I would be a bit more personally annoyed, if the Heirloom skins were for Nidus and Mesa. Why? Well for me personally, I like them more, so not having their skins, would sting more. To me, its very natural that more people, generally care about these skins, more than a Tennocon pack 2020 emote, or Pistol Skin. 

Price points can matter too, regarding DE selling cosmetics. Consistency can help. Like most people roughly know that Price Access and Prime Accessories are usally consistent price wise. What does that mean? Well... usually with Prime Access, you get complaints about the quality of the bundles... Like subjective criticisms around quality. Not the actual price point, because thats been established. So no surprise. The criticisms may be... "This Syandana sucks, and has no effects. This doesn't seem like Prime Armour, only this Warframe will get use out of an Alt Prime helmet" etc. 

Ah that sucks, sorry to hear. Personally I try to avoid accusing others of overreacting or the like, just because I don't find it particularly helpful or useful. I mean, I might question it to them, but usually from a place of sincerity and goodwill, as far as getting them to reconsider, and I'll be just as willing to reconsider alongside them too. 

You are right about all that. I personally think that the biggest mistake DE made was to make the Heirloom skins skins. I mean they just should have been Prime 2.0. They look like it, it was explained like that and everything point to that, but unfortunately these are just skins. I am pretty sure if these were just Frost Heirloom Prime and Mag Heirloom Prime and it would give MR points and you could either buy the pack or you could buy it directly from Varzia or you could buy special Heirloom relics for Aya and farm it and build it. EVERYONE would be satisfied and happy.

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Oh my bad, and apologies, I forget to quote this part too. 

Yeah I agree. I do think DE is in a tricky position, because I do believe they are doing quite well money wise, however the world we live in, the industry they are in, doing well often isn't enough, for some, in positions where they have influence and power. I don't mean people like Rebecca either. Contrary to some sentiment in this thread, AFAIK structure wise, there people above her in terms of decision making authority and also expertise. Those people, may also have to answer to other people too. Warframe could be doing really well, but is it say... doing as well as Destiny? Why? Why not? What can DE do, to be doing as well as Destiny? Well, someone may have thought that Heirloom collections could be a way, and I am not enough of an expert to say with certainty that they are right or wrong. I do think that DE has carved out a lot of unusual goodwill and positive sentiment from gamers, for some of its monetisation practices and thus... Benefit from not doing what a lot of the standard industry does. Before I got into Warframe, for years, different gaming channels, and friends, and a few Devs etc have talked about the game positively, for being more in tuned to its fans and players, more transparent, more Devstreams, and interactions, and Tennocons, and the community is so friendly and helpful, because the actual in game explanations are... and DE took these risks, and.. lots of positivity and warm feelings, and goodwill, from being better than the standard. Except they can't really have both. They can't be the consumer friendly, customer conscious, relatable, transparent, as well as the people behind Regal Aya (original plans) and this Heirloom collection. At least to many. Again, some, those may not be at odds. Even if I was one of the latter though, I would still have to realise and acknowledge that a lot of people don't feel the same way, for reasons valid and sincere to them. 

We definitely do agree on a few other things though too, like I don't necessarily view DE as a predatory evil, either. Though a part of that is ignorance on my part about DE's internal workings. Does make me think of Chesterton's Fence a little. Someone at DE being "We have offered limited time exclusives with cosmetics before? Weapon skins? How about we do some really awesome mega deluxe Warframe skins for the Supporters pack this year?", "well... we haven't really done that before" someone else at DE says... "Not for skins for Warframes... at this price point, for limited time... in a package with Plat and Regal Aya... could backfire and make unhappy fans" to the response of "Nah, they'll get over it, and lots of people will pay that much. Just announce it at Tennocon, when everyone will be watching and be at their most hype and positive, and willing to spend real money, and this way, we can al get Christmas bonuses!", Of course just random speculation and guessing, just to emphasis I really don't know. 

Oh and even though I don't feel that way? I don't really personally get frustrated or bothered about anything. I mean on a personal level. Its just my personality and temperament. So I try not to judge others for having strong reactions or frustrations, even if I don't agree (or if I do agree, but don't demonstrate that same sort of extreme expression). I think thats important to remember too. Frustrated people act frustrated, angry people act angry, yadda yadda. 

Thanks and my apologies again. 

You are right about all this. I agree and I also can see that conversation happening. While I am definitely not aboard the "Tencent bad forces DE to be bad" train I am sure the money people at DE want to make as much money as possible, obviously, that's absolutely understandable. And Rebecca is creative director, not CEO or anything of that sort. She has a vision of where the story goes and how the game as a whole shoud work and what needs to be improved, fixed, rebalanced. (That's also Pablo's job of course.)

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Yes, and that they're Deluxe skins. As much as DE fluffs them up in their marketing, there is no difference in any measurable way between these and any of the other Deluxe skins in the game. And while Deluxe skins were once time limited, that was only for a short while 8 years ago! It's been so long since we last had time limited exclusive Deluxe skins I'm now an uncle with nieces entering school! And Deluxe skins have never been cash only, even when released as big-ticket items in Supporter packs.

By rough count there are what... 54 Deluxe skins before these? So is it really so surprising that people who have had 8 years to get used to the way these items are always sold are surprised when that suddenly changes and goes in the complete opposite direction? And when people always push back on FOMO, exclusivity, and cash-only offerings no matter how big or small they are, I'm more surprised that there are people who still can't predict the community's response to these kinds of things.

Yup. this makes sense. I personally think these shouldn't have been deluxe skins, if they wanted to monetize it like this. (I explain what I mean by this two paragraphs above.)

[Waeleto]

3 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

She's the creative director. She's not in charge of marketing or financial decisions. She's not the head of the whole company. She's a department manager.

glad someone understands this, the heirloom pack has "DE overlords" written all over it and it's not rebecca's fault

[TheVirtualShadow]

8 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

glad someone understands this, the heirloom pack has "DE overlords" written all over it and it's not rebecca's fault

I always lean to blaming the higher ups that give the call to how to handle MTXs, i always avoid going for the devs with big studios, as they are just the workforce doing a job.

Also 77 pages later, damn, wonder if it'll hit 100.

[ASH_PRlME]

32 minutes ago, TheVirtualShadow said:

wonder if it'll hit 100.

probably price increased to 100 bucks lmao

[Darkbring]

5 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Very fair thing to say. Do you feel like it's the same now or just closer to PoE?
I mean you can easily play everything in Warframe for free. The bundle is just cosmetics.
Which is the same for PoE, but in PoE on the other hand you pretty much MUST buy the stash tabs to be able to play endgame.

 

 

 

 

 

I think monetization like this IS indeed closer to PoE, except Warframe isn't the same kind of game, here you actually get to look at your character outside of the gear menu, nor do I like PoE's monetization scheme.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Darkbring

[Cerikus]

5 minutes ago, Darkbring said:

I think monetization like this IS indeed closer to PoE, except Warframe isn't the same kind of game, here you actually get to look at your character outside of the gear menu, nor do I like PoE's monetization scheme.

I don' think you are right about looking at your character. Majority of your cosmetics are very visible in PoE. Some of them augment how your HUD looks. Some are very distinctive decorations for your Hideout, some are very significant animations or colorful effects that are visible on your character at all times. In PoE you don't actually see your character in the gear menu...

You don't like the supporter packs or the stash tabs?