Performing a series of specific Parkour Movements > Tapping a Button. Why Nerfing Exodia Contagion is a MISTAKE

[-Krism-]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

They have used this excuse multiple times is the sad part.

Wow, you just completely ignored one of the comments correcting this statement

Can you just stop being dishonest? It was fixed, & they're not gonna revert it, so instead of wasting your time on the forums, just #*!%ing accept it & move on with your life, I'm sure you have better stuff to do than this

[DrBorris]

5 hours ago, Corvid said:

Those words were immediately followed by "and went beyond the original design for the Arcane.", which, given that the animation bug in question was left untouched, is likely the main reason behind the fix.

If you're going to accuse others of being disingenuous, the least you can do is not leave out important information.

"and," implying that the first part was part of the decision.

If I see a bad argument I'm going to point it out. The whole comment (except for the last 9 words) feels off. Either misrepresenting a heavy slide attack in the air (they never actually say what the "series of specific parkour movements" is), saying that you have to do a thing to do a thing (yes, you must do a heavy attack in the air to do a heavy attack in the air), or the aforementioned "movement animation bug." My issue isn't with the change, I do think it is justified, but I don't like it when it feels as though someone doesn't respect me enough to say it straight. That isn't the clear communication we should expect.

 

I just really, really hate it when someone uses bad arguments regardless of the conclusion. Pick apart the components, and if everything checks out then the conclusion is fair. If the components are bad then figure out what went wrong. It just reinforces those pathways and potentially leads to more BS in the future when S#&$ty logic gets ignored because the correct end point was reached. It also leads to inconsistencies, if heavy slide attacks in the air are a bug then why can we still do them? Is Tenet Grigori being able to do this maneuver unintended? I now have more questions, not less.

I'm still salty over when DE said Xoris was nerfed "because it was more powerful" when that wasn't at all the case. It was more convenient, and in that case as well I agreed with the intention to nerf (as it did reduce build variety), but if that was their reason then why the fudge to Riven stat sticks still exist.

 

I'm aware that at the end of the day it doesn't matter. I'm just frustrated.

 

Edit:

2 hours ago, -Krism- said:

Wow, you just completely ignored one of the comments correcting this statement

Can you just stop being dishonest? It was fixed, & they're not gonna revert it, so instead of wasting your time on the forums, just #*!%ing accept it & move on with your life, I'm sure you have better stuff to do than this

Correcting it? What was technically wrong about what I said? I get the criticism given, it does come off as disingenuous for me to not bring up the last nine words if my point was about DE's conclusion, but that was never my point. I don't like it when someone misrepresents something to bolster their conclusion. It doesn't matter if their conclusion is otherwise justified, it is a bad habit to get into and is disrespectful to the people you are communicating with.

I don't need/want to see an apology, walk-back, or whatever. I just want to see DE not do this (misrepresenting the rationality behind a change) again, ergo my feedback.

Edited September 15, 2023 by DrBorris

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

2 hours ago, -Krism- said:

Wow, you just completely ignored one of the comments correcting this statement

Can you just stop being dishonest? It was fixed, & they're not gonna revert it, so instead of wasting your time on the forums, just #*!%ing accept it & move on with your life, I'm sure you have better stuff to do than this

There is no correcting the statement when they literally state is was a bug. It doesnt matter what comes after and you being so upset by this is sad but also funny. Get a life and move on. You enjoy being a brown noser? Frankly the nerf doesn't even affect me so I couldn't care less unlike you who are just so affected by others words.

Edited September 15, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[(NSW)Greybones]

12 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

"and," implying that the first part was part of the decision.

If I see a bad argument I'm going to point it out. The whole comment (except for the last 9 words) feels off. Either misrepresenting a heavy slide attack in the air (they never actually say what the "series of specific parkour movements" is), saying that you have to do a thing to do a thing (yes, you must do a heavy attack in the air to do a heavy attack in the air), or the aforementioned "movement animation bug." My issue isn't with the change, I do think it is justified, but I don't like it when it feels as though someone doesn't respect me enough to say it straight. That isn't the clear communication we should expect.

 

I just really, really hate it when someone uses bad arguments regardless of the conclusion. Pick apart the components, and if everything checks out then the conclusion is fair. If the components are bad then figure out what went wrong. It just reinforces those pathways and potentially leads to more BS in the future when S#&$ty logic gets ignored because the correct end point was reached. It also leads to inconsistencies, if heavy slide attacks in the air are a bug then why can we still do them? Is Tenet Grigori being able to do this maneuver unintended? I now have more questions, not less.

I'm still salty over when DE said Xoris was nerfed "because it was more powerful" when that wasn't at all the case. It was more convenient, and in that case as well I agreed with the intention to nerf (as it did reduce build variety), but if that was their reason then why the fudge to Riven stat sticks still exist.

 

I'm aware that at the end of the day it doesn't matter. I'm just frustrated.

It doesn’t strike me that a mid-air slide attack is particularly intentional even if it can look cool and open some options for approach. We’ve already got the slide effect in mid-air; it’s a jump kick. And the normal attack is either the slam or a strike depending on angle of view, but the heavy just does a slam, which seems to indicate that a heavy attack isn’t necessarily a mid-air thing.

I haven’t got a Grigori, but from what I understand it seems that its ability to throw its projectile in mid-air is a follow on effect from something that seems a little odd in the first place

[DrBorris]

15 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It doesn’t strike me that a mid-air slide attack is particularly intentional even if it can look cool and open some options for approach. We’ve already got the slide effect in mid-air; it’s a jump kick. And the normal attack is either the slam or a strike depending on angle of view, but the heavy just does a slam, which seems to indicate that a heavy attack isn’t necessarily a mid-air thing.

I haven’t got a Grigori, but from what I understand it seems that its ability to throw its projectile in mid-air is a follow on effect from something that seems a little odd in the first place

Mid-air slide attacks are that "coptering" thing you've probably heard about. While they no longer add momentum as they did pre-Bullet Jump, they have been part of the game since the beginning. I still use them in movement a bit as they do have some influences on momentum (normally at the very end of a movement chain to kill momentum)  and can sometimes be more useful as an aerial melee attack than the basic attacks. They aren't nearly as common or useful as they have been in the past (slide attacks in general are at an all-time low), but they are very much an intentional part of the melee/movement sandbox.

Tenet Grigori's mechanic isn't in-air specifically, it is a mechanic tied into heavy slide attacks. The description of Grigori is "Tenet Grigori is a unique Tenet Scythe whose Heavy Slide Attacks launch a short-ranged energy disk. The second attack in a Heavy Attack Combo will also launch an energy disk." As it stands you can launch these launch these projectiles in the air (by doing a heavy slide in the air), but in the patch notes DE said that maneuver was an animation bug.

 

My only point (in this thread) has been that the classification of heavy slide attacks in the air as a bug was unfair. Given the mechanics in game, it is intuitive to think we could do it, the assertion that heavy attacks in the air must always trigger a ground slam is (in my opinion) a greater stretch than a natural combination of existing mechanics.

Edited September 15, 2023 by DrBorris

[(NSW)Greybones]

24 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Mid-air slide attacks are that "coptering" thing you've probably heard about. While the no longer add momentum as they did pre-Bullet Jump, they have been part of the game since the beginning. I still use them in movement a bit as they do have some influences on momentum (normally at the very end of a movement chain to kill momentum)  and can sometimes be more useful as an aerial melee attack than the basic attacks. They aren't nearly as common or useful as they have been in the past (slide attacks in general are at an all-time low), but

Tenet Grigori's mechanic isn't in-air specifically, it is a mechanic tied into heavy slide attacks. The description of Grigori is "Tenet Grigori is a unique Tenet Scythe whose Heavy Slide Attacks launch a short-ranged energy disk. The second attack in a Heavy Attack Combo will also launch an energy disk." As it stands you can launch these launch these projectiles in the air (by doing a heavy slide in the air), but in the patch notes DE said that maneuver was an animation bug.

 

My only point (in this thread) has been that the classification of heavy slide attacks in the air as a bug was unfair. Given the mechanics in game, it is intuitive to think we could do it, the assertion that heavy attacks in the air must always trigger a ground slam is (in my opinion) a greater stretch than a natural combination of existing mechanics.

Honestly I didn’t know about slide attacks in mid-air until I got hold of the Arcane in question while reading what others were saying. It never occurred to me to try attacking while sliding; if I was going to slide in mid-air for combat purposes, it would be to jump-kick. And if I wanted to attack with my melee, I wouldn’t be sliding. The heavy slam being a thing that always happens makes more sense as a form of limiting what a player can bring to bear in the air than the idea of mid-air slide attacking.

I’ve heard of coptering and have played since before Parkour 2.0 (easily one of my most favourite updates due to how difficult it was to pull off cool ninja stuff with the old movement system despite the potential shown) so technically I was able to engage with it, and it still sounded weird and I never did. Apparently weird enough that DE went and gave us a specific mechanic that makes a lot more sense to pull off as a means of replacing its ubiquitous use

edit: 🤔 Thinking about it though, maybe I have been using mid-air slide attacks accidentally when I’d go to slide into a group of enemies and attack; I’m guessing at the moment it’s seamless, but there’ve most likely been times where I was just above the ground and I’d go to attack while sliding along what I thought was the ground but may have been just above it

Edited September 15, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[-Krism-]

9 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Correcting it? What was technically wrong about what I said?

I wasn't quoting you tho

 

9 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

There is no correcting the statement when they literally state is was a bug. It doesnt matter what comes after and you being so upset by this is sad but also funny. Get a life and move on. You enjoy being a brown noser? Frankly the nerf doesn't even affect me so I couldn't care less unlike you who are just so affected by others words.

Who said I was upset? If you're talking about my way of speaking/phrasing, that's just how I talk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

21 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

I wasn't quoting you tho

 

Who said I was upset? If you're talking about my way of speaking/phrasing, that's just how I talk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The word "joyless" is in the name lol. Misery loves company and all that...

[DrBorris]

1 hour ago, -Krism- said:

I wasn't quoting you tho

Apologies, I assumed "this statement" was referring to my reply as my reply is what Joylesstuna had quoted. 

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The word "joyless" is in the name lol. Misery loves company and all that...

It's good to see I've had such an effect on you that you gotta hunt me down in threads just to attempt to put me down.

[SneakyErvin]

I dont really see how people can be upset by a bug fix and also call it a nerf. It is a fix, reading the arcane description it clearly doesnt have any intent to work with HA's, it speaks of bullet-jumping, double jumping and air-attacks, which are tied to regular melee attacks.

Not to mention how hard contagion hits on its own with the intended interaction. It is like carrying an addition super Kuva Tonkor that doesnt care about ammo.

1 minute ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

It's good to see I've had such an effect on you that you gotta hunt me down in threads just to attempt to put me down.

I mean, he isnt wrong, you are really living up to your name. I mean, as gloomy and sourpouty you are I at times imagine you hanging out at the busstop with a cardboard suit saying "the end is nigh" while browing the forums on your tab, phone or laptop.

As Squirrel Girl wisely says "Time to turn that frown upside down!" and "Peanuts arent actually nuts, they are legumes...".

[DrBorris]

38 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont really see how people can be upset by a bug fix and also call it a nerf.

If they simply said "it was never supposed to work with heavy attacks" then I wouldn't have an issue. But that's not the bug that they are claiming exists, they claim that heavy slide attacks in the air are a "movement animation bug." Also calling it a "series of specific parkour movements" instead of a heavy slide attack is... I dunno, it feels like either the person who patched this didn't know those are a thing or the person who wrote the notes wanted to obfuscate what was going on. 

I know this is a mountain out of molehill, but this kind of disingenuous explanation rubs me the wrong way. 

[SneakyErvin]

16 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

If they simply said "it was never supposed to work with heavy attacks" then I wouldn't have an issue. But that's not the bug that they are claiming exists, they claim that heavy slide attacks in the air are a "movement animation bug." Also calling it a "series of specific parkour movements" instead of a heavy slide attack is... I dunno, it feels like either the person who patched this didn't know those are a thing or the person who wrote the notes wanted to obfuscate what was going on. 

I know this is a mountain out of molehill, but this kind of disingenuous explanation rubs me the wrong way. 

They are all true though. What is disingenuous with it?

1. Slide attacks in the air are an animation bug, just a longstanding one. Likely easier to leave it than patch it out if it doesnt impact gameplay on a larger scale.

2. Calling it a "series of specific parkour movements" is true. Because well that is what it is since it isnt part of the described interaction for the arcane. You need the weapon equipped, you need to slide, you need to aim, you need to heavy attack. That is a series of specific parkour actions following eachother for a specific result. As good an explaination as any.

And the reason they give any explaination at all is because there are certain people that clearly think a bug is a feature, even when it obviously isnt. They could have simply said Fixed unintended interaction between contagion and certain air attacks. However that would have like resulted in threads flooding the forums with claims regarding intended contagion being nerfed even though it wasnt touched.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont really see how people can be upset by a bug fix and also call it a nerf. It is a fix, reading the arcane description it clearly doesnt have any intent to work with HA's, it speaks of bullet-jumping, double jumping and air-attacks, which are tied to regular melee attacks.

Not to mention how hard contagion hits on its own with the intended interaction. It is like carrying an addition super Kuva Tonkor that doesnt care about ammo.

I mean, he isnt wrong, you are really living up to your name. I mean, as gloomy and sourpouty you are I at times imagine you hanging out at the busstop with a cardboard suit saying "the end is nigh" while browing the forums on your tab, phone or laptop.

As Squirrel Girl wisely says "Time to turn that frown upside down!" and "Peanuts arent actually nuts, they are legumes...".

Id rather not be a boot licker and actually point out flaws unlike some people here......

[-Krism-]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

"Peanuts arent actually nuts, they are legumes...".

Wait what? Was I lied to this whole time?

 

Also, isn't Squirrel Girl the one that could defeat absolutely anyone because she's a joke character?

Edited September 15, 2023 by -Krism-

[Zimzala]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Id rather not be a boot licker and actually point out flaws unlike some people here......

I guess if one is going to be an Eeyore, one might as well own it, right?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

This idea that because someone won't get on a bandwagon against a game company over changes or bugs is therefore a 'bootlicker' or 'white-knight' is hilarious.

It's like watching 13 year old's upset because someone implied they might have cooties.

Hilarious. 

[-Krism-]

4 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I guess if one is going to be an Eeyore, one might as well own it, right?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

This idea that because someone won't get on a bandwagon against a game company over changes or bugs is therefore a 'bootlicker' or 'white-knight' is hilarious.

It's like watching 13 year old's upset because someone implied they might have cooties.

Hilarious. 

Nah, this is more like a two 13yo fighting over who the strongest super hero is & insulting each other because they just don't agree

Same thing here, they don't even want to consider our PoV, & therefor, we are "bootlickers/white knights"

[Zimzala]

10 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

Nah, this is more like a two 13yo fighting over who the strongest super hero is & insulting each other because they just don't agree

Same thing here, they don't even want to consider our PoV, & therefor, we are "bootlickers/white knights"

However you describe it, I think these arguments over pedantic details in video games are hilarious schadenfreude.

It makes me giggle every time I see some poster hellbent on tying to say "everyone against me is a bad person" over details no one in the conversation can control.

Call it fighting over who got the largest piece of cake, who's dad can beat up the other dads, which version of Superman is the worst, etc., but when it all turns into the simplistic idea of trying to make people who talk about a things but won't jump on the hate-wagon into some kind of developer loving pariahs, I just laugh at them.

The one thing the WF forums have consistently provided is a long, long line of them for our amusement.

People who literally take the stance "if you are not agreeing with me you are wrong and a developer lover" are just hilarious.

I wonder if some of these supposed adults make complaints to the airline about pilot ability when there is turbulence they cannot control, or ask for a manager when their sprinkles don't cover the entire ice-cream Sunday.

Then I realize these same people will be put in positions to make decisions for others, and I weep for humanity...

[(XBOX)Hellsteeth30]

I could beat all your dad's in an arm wrestle.

[Zimzala]

Just now, (XBOX)Hellsteeth30 said:

I could beat all your dad's in an arm wrestle.

Mine's been dead for almost four decades, so you would have to wear that arm out digging him up first! 

[quxier]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont really see how people can be upset by a bug fix and also call it a nerf. It is a fix, reading the arcane description it clearly doesnt have any intent to work with HA's, it speaks of bullet-jumping, double jumping and air-attacks, which are tied to regular melee attacks.

First why it's so hard to see that some people are upset? You like certain things (whatever it is) and some people take it from you. Would you be happy? I don't think so. I'm not sure about upset or angry but you wouldn't go to the people and thanks them. I was little bit angry because they "fixed" amalgam mod (that one with shorten rolls) without even giving us back anything.

Secondly fix can be nerf too. They fixed (according to them) by nerfing some interaction/buff.

Thirdly, Arcane says "air attacks" which means just "melee attack in the air". How do I know that I cannot do heavy (not slam)? Maybe it requires some combinations that player is not aware and DE hasn't said it officially anywhere (e.g. codex)?

[DrBorris]

I'm dropping this. This discussion isn't going anywhere but I'll finish off with some very quick (as quick as I can at least) final words.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They are all true though. What is disingenuous with it?

1. Slide attacks in the air are an animation bug, just a longstanding one. Likely easier to leave it than patch it out if it doesnt impact gameplay on a larger scale.

2. Calling it a "series of specific parkour movements" is true. Because well that is what it is since it isnt part of the described interaction for the arcane. You need the weapon equipped, you need to slide, you need to aim, you need to heavy attack. That is a series of specific parkour actions following eachother for a specific result. As good an explaination as any.

And the reason they give any explaination at all is because there are certain people that clearly think a bug is a feature, even when it obviously isnt. They could have simply said Fixed unintended interaction between contagion and certain air attacks. However that would have like resulted in threads flooding the forums with claims regarding intended contagion being nerfed even though it wasnt touched.

1. Slide attacks in the air... one of the few movement mechanics that has been part of the game since closed beta... is a bug? The "it's been in the game for years therefore not a bug" argument is pretty weak in general, but this is as old as Warframe, I think it gets a bit more validity.

2. Unironically saying "technically correct, the best kind of correct" is an interesting take. You would think in the explanation as to why you are changing a thing that you would, ya know, explain it. There were more words spent not explaining the "series of specific parkour movements" than it would have taken to just say "heavy slide attack in the air." And all of those other "specific movements" are the requirements needed to make Contagion work in the first place. Normally when someone takes the long, non-specific way around a topic it is because they are either trying to hide something or are ignorant. Sure, they were technically correct, but it is also a red flag.

And I don't know what that last part is even about. As I've said a few times, I agree with the reasoning "we never intended for Contagion to scale with heavy attacks". And while they did get to that point at the very end of a bunch of nonsense, I appreciate that it was there, I wish that they kept it at that. Saying that using heavy slide attacks to scale contagion is a bug is perfectly reasonable, even if it does make some amount of gameplay sense. This thread would still exist if they kept it at the simple explanation, but I wouldn't be here going my two cents because DE would've provided a fair and understandable rational.

Now I'm left wondering if the other weapons that make use of this (Ceramic Dagger and Tenet Grigori) are exploiting a bug, by giving an explanation DE added more uncertainty instead of clarifying.

 

1 hour ago, -Krism- said:

Nah, this is more like a two 13yo fighting over who the strongest super hero is & insulting each other because they just don't agree

Same thing here, they don't even want to consider our PoV, & therefor, we are "bootlickers/white knights"

This is the response I expect from someone who is willing to see from another's PoV.

[(XBOX)Hellsteeth30]

2 hours ago, Zimzala said:

Mine's been dead for almost four decades, so you would have to wear that arm out digging him up first! 

Challenge accepted!  Be a good warm up 

[Zimzala]

28 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hellsteeth30 said:

Challenge accepted!  Be a good warm up 

Here you go then!

Coordinates: 34.19330, -77.92470

Happy hunting!

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

6 hours ago, Zimzala said:

I guess if one is going to be an Eeyore, one might as well own it, right?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

This idea that because someone won't get on a bandwagon against a game company over changes or bugs is therefore a 'bootlicker' or 'white-knight' is hilarious.

It's like watching 13 year old's upset because someone implied they might have cooties.

Hilarious. 

I didn't name anyone but hey if you want to jump to conclusions go right ahead. You seem pretty good at doing that.

Edited September 16, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna