Noticed pity systems were added to various farms since I last played, is it time to add a pity system to rerolling rivens?

[PublikDomain]

13 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Pity system is to turn a randomized event into a deterministic event.

How do you define a determined end-point of a riven? How do you know what people were looking for when rolling a riven?

You don't need to. If people have some agency over their rolls then they can define their own end-points. Maybe someone wants to make a silly meme build? Maybe someone wants to chase the meta? Both are fine.

[TARINunit9]

6 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

not gonna happen. all the addicts and traders have made Rivens an economy all its own, far too lucrative for DE to bother fixing in a way that might result in less rolls, and therefore less money.

Going off topic, but...

I keep seeing this assertion that "Rivens are tradable, ergo Rivens are a significant source of income for DE." And I... don't see how that adds up at all. Definitely not after the Heirloom fiasco where DE tipped their hand, showing exactly how they make their money. Almost nobody dumps $60 worth of platinum thinking "I'm going to go dive into the in-game market trading for randomized gear I'm not even allowed to use until I'm an end-game player dozens of hours in." I'd be surprised if DE's bean counters even consider Rivens to break even, with the amount of time staff has to rebalance them every two months. Compare that to the clearly much larger number of players who say "I'm going to dump $60 on these awesome Prime Packs that unlock entire player characters!" That's where DE is making TenCent happy

[PublikDomain]

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Going off topic, but...

I keep seeing this assertion that "Rivens are tradable, ergo Rivens are a significant source of income for DE." And I... don't see how that adds up at all. Definitely not after the Heirloom fiasco where DE tipped their hand, showing exactly how they make their money. Almost nobody dumps $60 worth of platinum thinking "I'm going to go dive into the in-game market trading for randomized gear I'm not even allowed to use until I'm an end-game player dozens of hours in." I'd be surprised if DE's bean counters even consider Rivens to break even, with the amount of time staff has to rebalance them every two months. Compare that to the clearly much larger number of players who say "I'm going to dump $60 on these awesome Prime Packs that unlock entire player characters!" That's where DE is making TenCent happy

Which you can assert with confidence because...? A lot of assertions are baseless, including these two. Neither you nor I nor anyone except DE knows how often players actually spend money and on what. All we can say for sure is that people do trade Rivens, Rivens can cost a lot of plat, that all plat comes from a real money purchase, and that DE is hesitant to change how they work. So either they have a genuine design opposition to increased player agency here, or there's a financial incentive to not change it. What other explanations make sense?

And sure, the latter isn't as simple as "DE makes money when Rivens are sold" - because they obviously don't. They've already made their money back when that plat was originally purchased. Instead it's more reasonable to say that Rivens are one of many big spoons stirring the economy so that plat eventually makes its way out, which is just as important as getting people to buy it in the first place. After all, if plat never got spent why would anyone ever buy more? Rivens move plat around, like all player-to-player trade, and that's kind of it. Plat is a significant source of income for DE, and Rivens are just one large part of the ingame economy that drives that income.

[TARINunit9]

50 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Which you can assert with confidence because...?

Couple-a reasons

First and foremost is, as you yourself pointed out,

50 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

They've already made their money back when that plat was originally purchased.

Now you follow this up with

50 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Instead it's more reasonable to say that Rivens are one of many big spoons stirring the economy so that plat eventually makes its way out, which is just as important as getting people to buy it in the first place. After all, if plat never got spent why would anyone ever buy more?

But this logic breaks down within itself. Yeah the pot needs to be stirred, but DE doesn't need plat to be moved, DE needs plat to be destroyed, i.e. spent on Forma/Deluxe Skins/friggin' impossible weapons like the Cinta. Not just moved from one whale to another

 

Let's give the quote blocks a break and move onto my second reason: Prime Packs and Heirloom Packs have so much plat in them. They just give an overall air of "yeah we can just throw all this free platinum out there." It's there to "sweeten the deal" -- which by definition means it's not the main moneymaker.

[Waeleto]

100% agreed, rivens are probably the most toxic aspect of warframe there is literally NO REASON for me to go into 400 rolls in a riven and get nothing good and maybe it was tolerable last year because we had unlimited kuva but this year you're limited to a certain amount of kuva per week making it already more difficult to roll rivens 
Maybe every 50 rolls you can lock a stat for the maximum of 200 rolls

[NecroPed]

6 hours ago, trst said:

You've still created a defined end point with a system that lets you choose your four desired stats. Since nobody but the most addicted Riven grinders even consider the stat rolls you'd have 99% of players entirely done with a Riven the moment they hit 3 locks. And even for the min maxers there isn't even that much variance between stat rolls anyways plus most of them would likely just roll until their most valued stat hit a max roll.

Also your suggestion of one lock per 25 rerolls is laughably small with how easy it is to get Kuva.

Yes, because that's the basic goal of a pity system, but having that end goal doesn't necessarily remove the potential for infinite grind or make it fully completable. And I really don't think there's anything wrong with stopping it from being an infinite grind, especially given how many weapons there are and that they keep adding them. Theres layers of essentially infinite grind there still even if each riven specifically has an end point, which with my suggestion still has further grind after the end point too. 

 

I think most people are done rolling a riven when they get ideal stat types because they risk the stat types in order to reroll it for better stat values, I'm confident a lot of people would continue to roll to maximize their rivens stat spread and not just addicts. Sometimes very specific stat spreads matter. And not only can you get different values for each stat, you can get considerably different stat spreads that can result in considerably differing effects on a weapon (more negative crit chance for weapons with the incarnon evolution that gives a bonus for status damage on non crits since it wants less crit and more status, more negative magazine size and more damage/crit on lanka just for two examples that explicitly benefit from it), and even if majority don't take rivens beyond the 4 stats being locked I don't see how thats a bad thing really. I doubt majority would even put over 100 rolls into many rivens let alone all the ones they have anyway, so I'm sure an end point can be set that really doesn't result in many people rolling less than they already are. 

 

I was just using 25 for a simple example. Wasn't suggesting to commit to that number. 

[balckillofdeath]

i actually disagree with the asseration that rivens dont make de money. in fact i think their probably the biggest source of income long term than the heirloom type packs are by a large margin. the only problem is that they dont generate money in huge sums in the short term. which corporations are super focused short term.  Nor do most people understand how it makes them money.

rivens make DE money mostly indirectly.

1. riven slots(this is the only direct money maker of the riven system and the least important!)

2. weapon slots for that old weapon(many players would abandon many of their weapons)

3. catalysts/forma for that old weapon

4. exilus slots

5. resource boosters/affinity boosters for kuva(repeatable money!) (want to get through powering it up to full potential)

6. player retention (this ends up being the most indirect method but probably bigger than above.  a game like warframe lives and dies by its ability to keep players. rivens give players something to grind for when no new content is dropped. it also helps prevent the feeling that the game doesnt really change. additionally if you arent playing the game why are players going to spend money on it! )

for everyone thinking that riven dispositions probably cost lots of time, i am here to shatter your bubble. chances are that no human actually touches the dispositions at all.

the entirety of the riven disposition system can/ and probably is automated away.  rarely does human would want to correct the disposition system.

and even if they did, they likely have a computer that looks at combination of weapon variety type and the popularity of that weapon that gives an automated suggestion for it.

this also why i dont think rivens will ever have a pity system.

 

in fact by comparison, i think the prime gear system probably requires far more attention then riven do. but make money through mostly the same ways.

though, it generates more money than an original war-fame because the programming is mostly completed for it already!

 

 

 

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

But this logic breaks down within itself. Yeah the pot needs to be stirred, but DE doesn't need plat to be moved, DE needs plat to be destroyed, i.e. spent on Forma/Deluxe Skins/friggin' impossible weapons like the Cinta. Not just moved from one whale to another

Which moving it around helps along. If I have plat and nothing to spend it on, I'm not going to spend it or buy more. It will never be destroyed. But a F2P player that's hungry for new cosmetics? They're more likely to spend plat in a way that removes it from circulation than I am. Every time plat changes hands there's a new chance the recipient might be more interested in spending it than the previous owner. Stirring the plat pot is part of the process of destroying it.

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Let's give the quote blocks a break and move onto my second reason: Prime Packs and Heirloom Packs have so much plat in them. They just give an overall air of "yeah we can just throw all this free platinum out there." It's there to "sweeten the deal" -- which by definition means it's not the main moneymaker.

I don't think Heirlooms really apply here... DE added plat to them because of outcry that the packs were overpriced, and they were adjusted to try and make that outcry go away. Throwing in an amount of plat to reach a value people expected in the first place isn't really indicative of anything other than that the packs were not initially priced reasonably.

Regarding PAs, why do you think people even buy them? Shouldn't players just buy the cheapest Accessories packs for the exclusives and then buy the parts from other players for less? Wisp Prime, Gunsen Prime, and Fulmin Prime could have been obtained for a combined total of 600p at the highest day-1 trade prices. It'd save you more than 40%! Yet many people buy PAs anyways, and the only difference is the plat. And I'm not really sure what other than plat you think their "main moneymaker" would be... merch?

[TARINunit9]

57 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Throwing in an amount of plat to reach a value people expected in the first place isn't really indicative of anything other than that the packs were not initially priced reasonably.

They still aren't and were never priced reasonably. DE's ability to just throw thirty dollars "worth" of plat into them on a whim both proves that, and also proves they can throw plat around because they don't value it. Studies show that parading a massive supply of your product to the customer reduces sales because there's no more urgency, so to stuff platinum unto every sale they can is either a calculated risk (sacrificing sales of platinum to sweeten the deal of something more lucrative) or a supreme act of business ignorance

59 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Regarding PAs, why do you think people even buy them?

To get the shiny new player characters without having to grind. And since I wasn't clear:

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

And I'm not really sure what other than plat you think their "main moneymaker" would be...

I already told you: the Prime Access! "Wow this GOLD AND IVORY STRONGER PLAYER CHARACTER that I can get on day 1 with no grinding and without having to wade through a player-driven chat I might not even know exists is super awesome and convenient!" That's their main moneymaker. The extra money they make on platinum -- which lest you forget, can be bought at a 75% discount, so most players are only ever spending five dollars -- is just extra gravy, not the meat and potatoes

[garbenzine]

How about a heavily reduced maximum kuva cost the higher the disposition is on the weapon?  You'd get to roll a ton more times on the weapons nobody uses so you can get a riven that'll make it more usable if it's one of your fun guns, while the meta weapons would remain at 3500 to try again.  Make the scale go something like -625 max cost per pip, so a 5-dot only costs 1000 to reroll.

[PublikDomain]

12 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

To get the shiny new player characters without having to grind. And since I wasn't clear:

13 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And I'm not really sure what other than plat you think their "main moneymaker" would be...

I already told you: the Prime Access! "Wow this GOLD AND IVORY STRONGER PLAYER CHARACTER that I can get on day 1 with no grinding and without having to wade through a player-driven chat I might not even know exists is super awesome and convenient!" That's their main moneymaker. The extra money they make on platinum -- which lest you forget, can be bought at a 75% discount, so most players are only ever spending five dollars -- is just extra gravy, not the meat and potatoes

Which I guess I wasn't clear about either?

13 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Wisp Prime, Gunsen Prime, and Fulmin Prime could have been obtained for a combined total of 600p at the highest day-1 trade prices. It'd save you more than 40%! Yet many people buy PAs anyways, and the only difference is the plat.

You can spend $50 on the Accessories - the only exclusive part - and then buy the parts from players day 1, rush them, and install potatoes for what, $30 in plat? Yet people buy the big expensive packs that cost a whole lot more anyways. And the only difference? The plat! The heavily discounted plat in Prime Access is one of the big draws to Prime Access. Plat's still a big moneymaker.

And unless you can poof a 75% coupon into existence at will, its existence doesn't really mean anything. I haven't seen the full 75% in years now.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

Or.....

We just remove Rivens from the game.

[Hobie-wan]

People asking for stat locking on rivens fail to understand they'd be shooting themselves in the foot. If it's easier for people to get (most) of what they want on a riven, that'll just make more people use the meta weapon of the month. That in turn will make DE nerf or fluctuate dispositions more which will just cause people to switch to something else they're going to need to roll instead. It'll just cause more chaos.

So nah.

[TARINunit9]

54 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

You can spend $50 on the Accessories - the only exclusive part - and then buy the parts from players day 1, rush them, and install potatoes for what, $30 in plat? Yet people buy the big expensive packs that cost a whole lot more anyways. And the only difference? The plat! The heavily discounted plat in Prime Access is one of the big draws to Prime Access. Plat's still a big moneymaker.

This argument relies on trade chat being a high-volume, popular, well-known aspect of the game. I highly, highly, HIGHLY doubt that's the case. If my doubts are correct it would prove that Prime Packs are primarily driven through the Prime frames themselves, and would also prove that Rivens aren't a significant economic factor in the first place.

Unfortunately neither of us can see the evidence on just how much traffic trade chat actually gets. Lots of auto-typers clocking off their WTS messages every 120 seconds, but no way to tell how many of those actually get replies

So we are mutually trapped at an impasse without any real numbers.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

22 minutes ago, Hobie-wan said:

People asking for stat locking on rivens fail to understand they'd be shooting themselves in the foot. If it's easier for people to get (most) of what they want on a riven, that'll just make more people use the meta weapon of the month. That in turn will make DE nerf or fluctuate dispositions more which will just cause people to switch to something else they're going to need to roll instead. It'll just cause more chaos.

So nah.

I disagree. 

First off, some of the most meta sought after rivens already have low dispo so the argument that dispo nerfs will make rolls unwanted/unusable doesnt hold water. 

 

Second, the current system is aids. 

Stat locking is thrown around as an idea alot, but even if they didnt go that far, any improvement at all would be nice.

[Qriist]

On 2023-09-28 at 5:51 PM, (PSN)Lollybomb said:

Just what conditions should the pity system be based on?  Does this value increase your pity?  Decrease it?  What does pity affect?  It's not like Tauforged where you either got a Tauforged, or you didn't, and Tauforged is objectively better in every single way.  So of course every time you don't get one the odds of getting one next time go up.

On 2023-09-29 at 12:13 AM, RichardKam said:

Pity system is to turn a randomized event into a deterministic event.

How do you define a determined end-point of a riven? How do you know what people were looking for when rolling a riven?

I suggested something a while back in another thread that addresses your questions:

Quote

Off of the top of my head, a change to the riven system to influence riven rolling outcomes would go a long way towards lessing the kuva grind while also pleasing players.

For example, lets say you could set a desired slate of 3+1 stats categories -damage, multishot, speed, etc, but not the actual random numbers themselves. It would be nice to skew the stats in a certain direction, for sure, so that would probably be more expensive. Let's peg it at 4k kuva for this hypothetical. You spend that 4k kuva to have a slowly increasing guaranteed chance to hit that particular stat config -with each numerical value being randomly generated from the appropriate range for that category as normal. This chage costs a little more upfront but gives a reasonably obtained, progressively harder cap on the amount of rolling for a given riven. This brings the kuva grind to an end in a natural way that leaves the player feeling satisfied with their time investment. I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to accomplish the same objective, this is just the first that occurs to me at the moment.

 

 

 

On 2023-09-29 at 10:55 AM, Dunkelheit said:

Archon Shards, Tauforged Shareds [...] won't be changed.

These were already changed with the introduction of the personalized pity upgrades.

 

4 hours ago, garbenzine said:

How about a heavily reduced maximum kuva cost the higher the disposition is on the weapon?  You'd get to roll a ton more times on the weapons nobody uses so you can get a riven that'll make it more usable if it's one of your fun guns, while the meta weapons would remain at 3500 to try again.  Make the scale go something like -625 max cost per pip, so a 5-dot only costs 1000 to reroll.

This wouldn't work because rivens attach to entire families of weapons, and new weapons are introduced with 0.5 disposition regardless of if there's other existing weapons in the same family.

To give you one small example, the Ohma has a disposition of 1.25 while the newly introduced Prisma Ohma sits at 0.5.

[PublikDomain]

4 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

People asking for stat locking on rivens fail to understand they'd be shooting themselves in the foot. If it's easier for people to get (most) of what they want on a riven, that'll just make more people use the meta weapon of the month. That in turn will make DE nerf or fluctuate dispositions more which will just cause people to switch to something else they're going to need to roll instead. It'll just cause more chaos.

So nah.

The meta weapon of the month already has its Disposition changed more frequently? Why would anything about that change?

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

This argument relies on trade chat being a high-volume, popular, well-known aspect of the game. I highly, highly, HIGHLY doubt that's the case. If my doubts are correct it would prove that Prime Packs are primarily driven through the Prime frames themselves, and would also prove that Rivens aren't a significant economic factor in the first place.

Unfortunately neither of us can see the evidence on just how much traffic trade chat actually gets. Lots of auto-typers clocking off their WTS messages every 120 seconds, but no way to tell how many of those actually get replies

So we are mutually trapped at an impasse without any real numbers.

Trade chat? You gotta get with the times, there are 20,000+ people online on warframe.market right now. Sounds pretty high-volume to me idk...

Edit: And if Rivens aren't a significant economic factor, why such resistance to changing them?

Edited September 30, 2023 by PublikDomain

[TARINunit9]

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Trade chat? You gotta get with the times, there are 20,000+ people online on warframe.market right now. Sounds pretty high-volume to me idk...

Visiting their website, I'd like to know how their numbers are being calculated. There are some metrics by which the number (17k at time of writing) can indeed be impressive, but if that's "all players who have signed up to our website, even if it was five years ago and haven't touched us since" it's actually kinda pathetic 

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Edit: And if Rivens aren't a significant economic factor, why such resistance to changing them?

DE's official stance is "we know exactly why you want them changed, and keep dreaming because you will never get that from us." The money seemingly has nothing to do with it

Edited October 1, 2023 by TARINunit9

[RichardKam]

2023/9/29 PM9点39分 , Merrcenary 说:

cc cd ms -z

But I want -flight speed +fire rate drakgoon for meme builds.

[PublikDomain]

18 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

DE's official stance is "we know exactly why you want them changed, and keep dreaming because you will never get that from us." The money seemingly has nothing to do with it

Did you include the right link?

[Hobie-wan]

23 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

First off, some of the most meta sought after rivens already have low dispo so the argument that dispo nerfs will make rolls unwanted/unusable doesnt hold water. 

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

The meta weapon of the month already has its Disposition changed more frequently? Why would anything about that change?

More people using them on meta weapons because they managed to lock in crit or whatnot will mean the disposition will be lowered even more. The whole point of rivens is to boost use of lesser used weapons with higher disposition. Despite people hoping to make meta weapons even stronger, that's not what DE had in mind.

 

[TARINunit9]

22 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Did you include the right link?

Thank you, should be fixed now with This one

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Thank you, should be fixed now with This one

Right, Scott's balance stance. We can't have stat-locking on Rivens because they'd be too powerful. 16:33-ish? But it's a self-defeating stance and always has been. God rolls already exist. Game-breaking Rivens already exist. Anyone can get one whenever they want via trade. Disposition already exists, and the entire point of that mechanic is to counter Rivens being too powerful. And Scott's "what we'd have to create to actually fight against that" that would be "absolutely insane" is already in the game in the form of mechanics like Damage Attenuation. Which has failed to be a successful balancing tool and is soon to be adjusted again - because you cannot balance with RNG. The randomness doesn't "keep the balance in check" like Scott suggests, it makes the balance harder - if not impossible. How do you balance content so a player with one of the "really really powerful" "potentially game-breaking" Rivens that already flood the market can play on the same level as other players without one? But if everyone has equal access then the problem is a lot easier to solve.

20 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Visiting their website, I'd like to know how their numbers are being calculated. There are some metrics by which the number (17k at time of writing) can indeed be impressive, but if that's "all players who have signed up to our website, even if it was five years ago and haven't touched us since" it's actually kinda pathetic 

Forgot to reply to this - they list Total Online and Traders Online, not offline users. They track user status and display that directly, like here where at the time of posting there are 39 people online ingame selling Arcane Guardians and 4 more online but not ingame. Just users selling one item rivals the activity of trade chat. And there's no reason for them to lie about their numbers so you're free to prove that their numbers are inflated or misrepresented.

Edited October 1, 2023 by PublikDomain

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

3 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

More people using them on meta weapons because they managed to lock in crit or whatnot will mean the disposition will be lowered even more. The whole point of rivens is to boost use of lesser used weapons with higher disposition. Despite people hoping to make meta weapons even stronger, that's not what DE had in mind.

 

This comment is painful to read. Like actually painful.

 

Do you not realize that:

1) there is a floor to how low dispo can go

2) that even at floor level, certain rolls can still be extremely good

3) that even at floor level, certain rivens/rolls are still highly coveted?

Go into trade chat rn and ask around what a kronen prime riven with CD/AS/RNG-free neg is worth then look at the dispo, just for one example.

 

[Hobie-wan]

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

This comment is painful to read. Like actually painful.

Says the person who wrote:

On 2023-09-30 at 12:36 PM, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

the current system is aids. 

Ok then.

Also, asking trade chat for a 'value' of something is laughable.

16 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Go into trade chat rn and ask around what a kronen prime riven with CD/AS/RNG-free neg is worth then look at the dispo, just for one example.