Dagath: the Headless Horse(wo)man... that has no horse?

[BionicFreak]

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

Oh i'm sorry, Do you want another stupid mount that's not made for the mission tilesets ? do you want another yareli/merulina situation ? 

Yes. Yes, I do want that.

Edit, I actually just went into Captura mode and tested riding a Kaithe in different tilesets, and you'd be surprised with the outcome:

There were no issues, aside from a few spots inside infested tilesets, which happen to be the same spots that impede Yareli's Merulina. Other than that, even small little vents don't stop players when riding Kaithes!

 

After further testing, I can say that there is NO reason why DE shouldn't have already given Dagath an Exalted Kaithe.

Edited September 29, 2023 by BionicFreak

[BionicFreak]

45 minutes ago, PorpitaPorpita said:

Merulina is good when you know how to use it. It's REALLY fast. 

It's SO frustrating to see people who never even took the time to learn how to ride Merulina insult it so hard, when it's 100% just takes practice. This is why we don't get super unique frames anymore, because people throw a fit when they can't handle something and ruin it for everyone else.

I couldn't agree more. So many of the people on these forums just want another bland Warframe that does what every other Warframe does. I just want more unique Warframes that offer entirely original playstyles, even if those playstyles take some time to learn through trial and error. I honestly wasn't even a fan of Warframe until 2016, when Titania was added. She was the first Warframe that actually felt fun to use.

It always makes me happy when they add strange and different Warframes to the game. I feel the opposite when they add a Warframe that is not much different at all from previous Warframes... Unfortunately, Dagath's abilities look to be that way. Just recycled older abilities with a touch-up. I'm sure she's gonna be super OP, but that's not what I look for in a Warframe. I want something NEW, not simply a better version of an old thing.

[PorpitaPorpita]

10 minutes ago, BionicFreak said:

I couldn't agree more. So many of the people on these forums just want another bland Warframe that does what every other Warframe does. I just want more unique Warframes that offer entirely original playstyles, even if those playstyles take some time to learn through trial and error. I honestly wasn't even a fan of Warframe until 2016, when Titania was added. She was the first Warframe that actually felt fun to use.

It always makes me happy when they add strange and different Warframes to the game. I feel the opposite when they add a Warframe that is not much different at all from previous Warframes... Unfortunately, Dagath's abilities look to be that way. Just recycled older abilities with a touch-up. I'm sure she's gonna be super OP, but that's not what I look for in a Warframe. I want something NEW, not simply a better version of an old thing.

It seems like such a wasted opportunity for something new and interesting. 😕  They have Kaithes and a Kaithe frame... why not just combine them?

Yareli really changed the game for me, and my wife has been hoping that Dagath would be her Yareli 😭 I'd love for us to be able to ride through missions together, side by side. 

[Famecans]

1 hour ago, brago90 said:

Dagath is a fairly accurate interpretation of the Dullahan who, despite what people may think, did not fight on horseback. The Dullahan's premise is that he brings death when he stops riding. From this perspective it can be justified that the horse is not part of the combat system.

Obviously this decision underlies a lot of collision problems that the horse would have and that will only be solved when DE reworks all the old mappings that are full of said problems.

In the future, DE may bring a warframe more suited to horseback combat.

The abyss of dagath is a title that suggests a curse, I don't see anything in Dullahan's story related to curses, another factor is that she is the corpse of a dead quadruped including the feet. this set of pieces draws the image of a woman.

Maybe the artist mixed several myths to avoid cultural appropriation, maybe it has something to do with witches or maybe warframe rotations should follow the two female and two male rule. idk

[Pakaku]

2 hours ago, BionicFreak said:

My response to that is this: Imagine Excalibur had NO sword ability. A Warframe that is literally named after a legendary sword, yet he has no sword as a part of his ability set. That would be a pretty massive letdown, would it not?

Was it not established that one of her abilities involves spectral horses

[PorpitaPorpita]

59 minutes ago, BionicFreak said:

Yes. Yes, I do want that.

Edit, I actually just went into Captura mode and tested riding a Kaithe in different tilesets, and you'd be surprised with the outcome:

There were no issues, aside from a few spots inside infested tilesets, which happen to be the same spots that impede Yareli's Merulina. Other than that, even small little vents don't stop players when riding Kaithes!

 

After further testing, I can say that there is NO reason why DE shouldn't have already given Dagath an Exalted Kaithe.

This was my exact experience!!

[BionicFreak]

3 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Was it not established that one of her abilities involves spectral horses

Did you not read my original post? Obviously you didn't, because I mentioned that ability when pointing out that they already have the required asset/model to use for an Exalted Kaithe. 

My point is that her 4th is the same ability as so many other Warframe abilities, regardless of them throwing in some ghost horses that run in a straight line. That ability has nothing to do with horses, it's like they just stapled up a picture of a horse and said "Hey guys, it's a horse theme!" when it doesn't really matter what picture they put up. It's just one of MANY abilities that causes damage in a straight line. WOOOWWW so original, that hasn't been done before! It's not a horse ability, it's just a theme. It's a wall of dmg that goes in a straight line + maybe some kinda armor/defense-stripping when synergized with her curse ability.

Regardless, it's not hard to understand what I mean. I want NEW abilities, not suped-up old abilities. A horse-themed frame should have a rideable horse.

[Pakaku]

3 minutes ago, BionicFreak said:

Did you not read my original post? Obviously you didn't, because I mentioned that ability when pointing out that they already have the required asset/model to use for an Exalted Kaithe. 

My point is that her 4th is the same ability as so many other Warframe abilities, regardless of them throwing in some ghost horses that run in a straight line. That ability has nothing to do with horses, it's like they just stapled up a picture of a horse and said "Hey guys, it's a horse theme!" when it doesn't really matter what picture they put up. It's just one of MANY abilities that causes damage in a straight line. WOOOWWW so original, that hasn't been done before! It's not a horse ability, it's just a theme. It's a wall of dmg that goes in a straight line + maybe some kinda armor/defense-stripping when synergized with her curse ability.

Regardless, it's not hard to understand what I mean. I want NEW abilities, not suped-up old abilities. A horse-themed frame should have a rideable horse.

Sounds more like the problem is just how boring an "attack-beam" ability is, regardless of how it looks.

A Kaithe would be awful without some serious overhaul, which on the other hand would benefit the summonable Kaithes... But that doesn't seem to be planned, so Dagath would have been better off without the horse themes, if that's what it really all comes down to.

[PorpitaPorpita]

18 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Sounds more like the problem is just how boring an "attack-beam" ability is, regardless of how it looks.

A Kaithe would be awful without some serious overhaul, which on the other hand would benefit the summonable Kaithes... But that doesn't seem to be planned, so Dagath would have been better off without the horse themes, if that's what it really all comes down to.

Have you tested the Kaithe in a Captura tileset? Because all of the people that I've seen who have (myself included) think it's completely playable and fine as is. Maybe a tiny learning curve, but that's also fine.

[Pakaku]

2 minutes ago, PorpitaPorpita said:

Have you tested the Kaithe in a Captura tileset? Because all of the people that I've seen who have (myself included) think it's completely playable and fine as is. Maybe a tiny learning curve, but that's also fine.

Honestly, no, because the last thing I was interested in was unlocking it outside Duviri. Especially if it plays anywhere nearly as bad as it does in actual Duviri

[PorpitaPorpita]

4 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Honestly, no, because the last thing I was interested in was unlocking it outside Duviri. Especially if it plays anywhere nearly as bad as it does in actual Duviri

Then it seems like a Kaithe-base frame wouldn't be for you either way, but it would be for the people who enjoy and can properly handle Kaithes. 

[Leqesai]

To the tc, just so you know. The term "horseman" includes females. No need to put the (wo) in the title... unless you are trying to make a point.

[brago90]

hace 1 hora, Famecans dijo:

The abyss of dagath is a title that suggests a curse, I don't see anything in Dullahan's story related to curses, another factor is that she is the corpse of a dead quadruped including the feet. this set of pieces draws the image of a woman.

Maybe the artist mixed several myths to avoid cultural appropriation, maybe it has something to do with witches or maybe warframe rotations should follow the two female and two male rule. idk

What I found about the Dullahans is that once they stopped and focused their attention on you, you died instantly. That sounds a lot like a curse to me. But in the stream they say that there are several sources of inspiration, even if the most obvious is Dullahan and the Headless Horseman.

[0_The_F00l]

I was rather disappointed by her whole kit if I am honest ,

I can't quite out my finger on it but .... I just don't see it being fun to play.

[RichardKam]

3小时前 , PorpitaPorpita 说:

Merulina is good when you know how to use it. It's REALLY fast. 

It's SO frustrating to see people who never even took the time to learn how to ride Merulina insult it so hard, when it's 100% just takes practice. This is why we don't get super unique frames anymore, because people throw a fit when they can't handle something and ruin it for everyone else.

I play Yareli as well but you have to admit there are problems with merulina.

1. As other people pointed out, tilesets are not designed for k-drive. Yes, you can go really fast, congratulation. But that does not change the fact they were not k-drive arena. Yes, I can learn how to ride merulina in regular tilesets, but what is the point? The skill set is limited to Yareli, one single frame, alone. I won't invest my time on such thing.

If this game allows me to summon k-drive anytime in regular missions, and merulina has some extra benefits on top of it for Yareli, then learning and using k-drive to go fast in regular tilesets would have meaning. But right now it works the opposite: it does not encourage people to use merulina, it actually discourage people from using Yareli. 

2. You cannot use subsume abilities and are limited to secondary when using merulina. Maybe it was the animation problem or something, but it is a huge turn off. Warframe is all about arsenal diversity and powercreep, and merulina is the opposite of everything.

3. You cannot mod merulina. I don't know why you cannot use k-drive mod on it, but this makes merulina even less than a regular k-drive, which is not something very useful by itself already. Even Sevagoth allows you to mod your shadow.

Being unique is nice and all, but just being unique does not mean it is useful. I actually subsume terrify over merulina in one of my general purpose build, and only use merulina - merulina guardian - gloom build for tanky stuff.

Back to Kaithe. Can you imagine the horror when you were flying in kuva fortress and the horse kept pushing you forward and got you stuck in the ceiling corner? Or when you were forced to dismount every 10 seconds because the door was too low? Is it going to limit your arsenal and ability again? And does it worth the effort?

[PorpitaPorpita]

6 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

I play Yareli as well but you have to admit there are problems with merulina.

1. As other people pointed out, tilesets are not designed for k-drive. Yes, you can go really fast, congratulation. But that does not change the fact they were not k-drive arena. Yes, I can learn how to ride merulina in regular tilesets, but what is the point? The skill set is limited to Yareli, one single frame, alone. I won't invest my time on such thing.

If this game allows me to summon k-drive anytime in regular missions, and merulina has some extra benefits on top of it for Yareli, then learning and using k-drive to go fast in regular tilesets would have meaning. But right now it works the opposite: it does not encourage people to use merulina, it actually discourage people from using Yareli. 

2. You cannot use subsume abilities and are limited to secondary when using merulina. Maybe it was the animation problem or something, but it is a huge turn off. Warframe is all about arsenal diversity and powercreep, and merulina is the opposite of everything.

3. You cannot mod merulina. I don't know why you cannot use k-drive mod on it, but this makes merulina even less than a regular k-drive, which is not something very useful by itself already. Even Sevagoth allows you to mod your shadow.

Being unique is nice and all, but just being unique does not mean it is useful. I actually subsume terrify over merulina in one of my general purpose build, and only use merulina - merulina guardian - gloom build for tanky stuff.

Back to Kaithe. Can you imagine the horror when you were flying in kuva fortress and the horse kept pushing you forward and got you stuck in the ceiling corner? Or when you were forced to dismount every 10 seconds because the door was too low? Is it going to limit your arsenal and ability again? And does it worth the effort?

It really is worth the effort, to me at least. I can beat everyone to extraction with the exception of Titania, and I almost always get the most damage on the squad by fae. I have nothing but red crits and Yareli performs better than any Warframe I have ever played. None of this is an exaggeration, but more importantly than all of that, it's fun. There's a rhythm to it, and skill. It has its quirks, but I find those quirks more enjoyable than standard Warframe gameplay. Some people might end up feeling the same way about Kaithe gameplay and it seems a shame to rob them of that. 

[PsiWarp]

At the very least, I hope she can use Kaithe Summon in tilesets. Sure the abilities on the Kaithe aren't exactly tailored for non-Duviri, but at least Guiding Hand's thru-wall silhouette tracking is good.

If able to alter the stats based on Dagath's mods, I'd love for Hoof Stomp to scale with Strength and Range, and Steadfast Dismount to give 1500 or so Overguard (capped to 15000 affected by Strength).

[Skoomaseller]

as a Yareli main

 

You do not want exalted vehicles. DE can't do it right.

[SneakyErvin]

With the issues that would come with a kaithe in doors I say no thanks to that idea. Sure it may get around inside "fine", but there is more to the game than get around. Lets completely ignore how poor the kaithe+reticle thing is or how "unresponsive" ranged combat is overall when mounted compared to anything else in the game. The kaithe just doesnt have the smooth movement, it is horsey and feels just like that.

We also arent talking about something based on mounted combat exactly. She is based on the Dullahan and potentially a witch or a necromancer of some kind. Though the Dullahan is most obvious with her aestethic bone items, some of which are used in her skills, like the spine/horse tail, which for the Dullahan was a human spine. Her signature weapon also follows that idea and it even has an irish inpired name Dorrclave, which I guess could mean "anger render" or something similar.

[0bsi]

Much as I love horses, I personally wouldn't want to lose an ability for simply summoning a Kaithe. So I'm kinda glad that's not one of her abilities.

An augment to let her summon the kaithe would be the best of both worlds though - allow the horse for those who want it, without forcing it on those who don't.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Yeah, so… anyone talking about ‘the headless horseperson’ myth like it’s the inspiration here has never heard of a Dullahan.

The harbinger of death who dooms the being whose name they speak, unstoppable, rides in a carriage with a Banshee to announce the death they bring. Kills with the whip of bones they wield, and guarantees the soul departs to the afterlife. While ‘horses’ do feature in that myth, it’s only when directly chasing a victim, and isn’t connected deeply with the character the way it is with the more recent myth of the horseman.

Also predates not only the horseman myth but approximately the history of the existence of the colonial America.

[Leqesai]

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I was rather disappointed by her whole kit if I am honest ,

I can't quite out my finger on it but .... I just don't see it being fun to play.

Based on what was shown she seems okay. The 1 is the least appetizing of her kit imo.

The 2, 3 and 4 all seem like fun. Not necessarily breaking the mold but definitely not Boring. Trouble is, we have so many frames at our disposal it is always hard to migrate towards new options. 54 frames in and I'm still mostly using the same frames I have been using for 8 years...

[0_The_F00l]

21 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Based on what was shown she seems okay. The 1 is the least appetizing of her kit imo.

The 2, 3 and 4 all seem like fun. Not necessarily breaking the mold but definitely not Boring. Trouble is, we have so many frames at our disposal it is always hard to migrate towards new options. 54 frames in and I'm still mostly using the same frames I have been using for 8 years...

I wasn't talking the effectiveness , which i guess it could be.

I was mostly disappointed by how similar things seem between her and kullervo and not much really feels anything curse/corpse/ rider based outside of the names.

[Leqesai]

16 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I wasn't talking the effectiveness , which i guess it could be.

I was mostly disappointed by how similar things seem between her and kullervo and not much really feels anything curse/corpse/ rider based outside of the names.

I don't think I said anything about effectiveness... I specifically said "fun".

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

I don't think I said anything about effectiveness... I specifically said "fun".

My misunderstanding , I thought that's what you meant by breaking the mold.