The forums are going in the wrong direction

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

If you ever worked in statistics you will know, You will never have all the data , you always have to settle for a close approximation of it , a thousand words are more accurate at describing something than 100 and a million words will be even more accurate. That is the nature of accuracy , you can always squeeze more out , the question is how much is enough and when does it stop being worth the effort.

Do you like this ? yes or no, the bare minimum objective,

How much do you like it? 1 out of 10 ? 3 out of 10 , 8 out of 10? more accurate and still objective,

Describe what you like or dislike about it? Accurate but subjective and not objective ,

Write an essay describing your opinions with clear references and examples- even more accurate and extremely subjective extremely difficult to categorize.

As to being "Productive" i say HAH! sir , you are in the wrong place if your objective is productivity! hah!

Of course, but that doesnt mean you should seek to dilute the data more if you are honestly interested in statistics. Which is what you do when you ask for such vague things as reactions. So if you are honest about wanting to be able to see statistical data from the forums, you should really ask for "like" to be removed and not ask to have more reactions added.

As to the last line. No we are actually in the right place if we want to see productivity. It is one of the main reasons threads get locked, when they arent productive and just start to circle around. Off-topic is the place if you look for unproductive threads and posts.

20 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

It is not weird at all , you can still describe and be expressive with one color (up to a degree), but you can always be more expressive if you have more options. you can paint a better picture if you have more colors.

And now we just run around in circles, i guess, For you to like someone that disagrees you need someone that is willing to disagree in the first place. That can take time , its never always the first post or second post , it may be 3 pages down and made very succinctly and well , but has been bogged down with gibberish that came before. And you need to get through all the gibberish (the swamp) to actually find it or you may just get bogged down and leave. you can yourself also start one but it faces the same challenge of never getting seen by others.

You kind of just described voting with your last paragraph there :P

Better according to whom? You are talking art, which is subjective at all times. There are more words to use regarding something being removed or limited, not everything is rooted in censoring. 

Anecdotal assumptions. Just here in this thread disagreement comes as early as with the second unique poster (third if you count the OP). And if someone isnt interested in reading the posts in a thread, why are they on a forum browsing threads? Skimming over is the worst approach if you have any actual interest in the subject(s) of the OP. And reactions wouldnt change any of this, since if you actually have interest you'd still need to read through the rest of the thread aswell. Unless all you care about is finding every OP that says something you can hit a like or dislike at just to feel like you are part of something in your exsistance of nothingness and anonymity.

I did? Are you refering to people with lacking knowledge being allowed to vote? Yes that part I see. It's like many people these days voting on something simply because they have in the past, without considering that the party they now vote for has changed drastically over the years and is but a shadow of its former self. 

20 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ah, i seem to have misunderstood you and what you meant about negative impact my apologies about that. i was not referring to censoring at all at this point but the "feeling" of negativity one can create or feel  with a dislike or a comment.

No problem. I personally dont give a flying squat if someone happens to get their feelings hurt over a comment etc. And in this day and age I care even less since people get their feelings hurt over the most trivial pointless things. If I worried about the feelings of others these days I should probably wear a ballgag 24/7.

Just a little while back I had a convo with someone. After me making a comment regarding a religion the person went "you're a damn racist!", At which point I asked him how I as a white dude can be a racist based on my distaste for an ideology when at the same time I'm facinated by jewish culture, hold Morgan Freeman at a house god status of the same level as Lemmy, while also finding Melissa Bonny, Moon Bloodgood and Melissa O'Neil to be three of the most stunning women on earth, and Bonny having one of the best voices aswell. And the guy responds "so you're sexist too...". At that point it was abandon ye all hope who enter here.

21 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am confused by this statement of yours, its very difficult to follow,

Firstly What a person should do is the starting point of any civilized action ,

And i agree that incentivised expression of thought can change ones opinions , that is how debates and discussions work and should continue to work.

Never in my points did i say that one should not be more descriptive , but only being descriptive is also not helpful.

There is a time for words and a time for reactions :D

My point is humans are humans. So what is logical and expected is most often not how things are done by a person. So having reactions accessible based on that a normal person would ask first if they lack understanding before hitting a reaction is unreasonable. So it is better to not have them, so people might actually get help with their understanding passively as they try to get their opinion across based on whatever (mis)understanding of the context they got.

I agree. But also consider that many prefer the fastest way or the shortest path to something. So have a reaction ready and they hit that and go on with their blissful ignorance regarding the actual point of a topic incase they dont actually comprehend it.

The purpose isnt to change, but actually clarify what the other party ment. So while the opinion might still be intact for the person overall, that opinion might not apply to that specific situation. Which is important with language barriers for instance, since you might think someone means something completely different than intended since you might not fully grasp what is said/written.

How is "only being descriptive" not helpful? Things cant get any clearer than when people are as descriptive as possible. I mean if someone says I fully agree with X decision made by Y regarding A, but I disagree that change B should go live for C. There you have #agree and #disagree directly as part of the statement in a descriptive fashion What purpose would adding those #'s or similar forum connected reactions serves besides you looking like some twitter twat or other social media hipster?

20 hours ago, Qriist said:

This has not been my experience. I've presented my anecdotal observations above, as well as that of someone else's. A third individual even corroborated the former existence of the second's nuked thread.

The mere act of having posts removed renders the question of if posts were removed into an unfalsifiable state to anyone short of the mods themselves.

In short, I cannot prove a negative.

This is an excellent example of censorship's pernicious nature.

We've also had several claims like that in the past where people have taken their time to show it isnt true by lining up nearly identical and civil threads not getting removed during the same time frame. Where "deleted" threads have also just been merged, where the decision has been based on date of origin, where the oldest of the threads have been the target location for the merger.

Regarding the thread mentioned the same also holds true since there were several threads circulating the forums regarding Tau-forged/shards and several different ideas how to fix or improve the system. Several of those threads stayed or simply got merged. Some of them with heated but civil discussions between players. People need to consider the whole of a thread, while the OP might have been civil, other may have not. At which point it comes to how the other threads look, if they are more civil/productive overall or not. If they are then there is no point cleaning up one that is infested in comparison to just removing it straight up, since the discussion is still alive at that point in the other threads.

There are still several seperate Tau-forged discussion threads up, threads that were created a year ago (soon) and cover various upgrade systems etc.

 

 

 

 

 

[Qriist]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Regarding the thread mentioned the same also holds true since there were several threads circulating the forums regarding Tau-forged/shards and several different ideas how to fix or improve the system. Several of those threads stayed or simply got merged. Some of them with heated but civil discussions between players. People need to consider the whole of a thread, while the OP might have been civil, other may have not. At which point it comes to how the other threads look, if they are more civil/productive overall or not. If they are then there is no point cleaning up one that is infested in comparison to just removing it straight up, since the discussion is still alive at that point in the other threads.

There are still several seperate Tau-forged discussion threads up, threads that were created a year ago (soon) and cover various upgrade systems etc.

1) You entirely ignored my last post where I pointed out the censorship in this very thread.

 

2) One day you'll pour your heart into a sentiment, express something unique to your perspective, and you'll be censored.

Your emotions will be scrubbed from existance; your point of view invalidated; your speech chilled.

You will be confused. You will wail "I didn't mean like this." You will beg the authorities to reverse their decision.

It may happen soon or it may take years, but it will happen, because it always happens to the people who simp for censorship.

At that time I will point, and I will laugh, and I will do nothing except watch you reap what you have sown. 🍿

Edited October 13, 2023 by Qriist

[Packetdancer]

14 hours ago, Qriist said:

I must also note that I recieved no warning or notification of any kind, only incidentally noticing the discrepency when I wanted to refer back to my own post and couldn't find it.

First off... I will admit I've never felt super comfortable judging how other people run the forums they run; criticizing how someone runs a board where I'm just a poster feels to me like going to a party at someone's house and then complaining about the food/snacks/whatever. Especially since -- just like at a party -- if I become uncomfortable with the way an online community is run, I have the option to leave.

Moreover, I'm sure that like most moderator teams the mod team here has a set of guidelines they adhere to (even if we may not have visibility into what they are), and I will thus assume that the edits to the thread happened in accordance with those.

But in the abstract...?

Like I said, I view hanging out on a forum as more or less going to a party someone is hosting. And if I am the host, I reserve the right to do what I need to keep the party fun and enjoyable for folks, which may mean kicking out the drunk person who's screaming obscenities in the bathroom or whatever. So on the forums where I'm an admin, I have zero problem with locking a thread that's become the prose equivalent of a barroom brawl and has nothing productive left to add. I don't even see anything particularly wrong with outright removing wildly offensive or abusive posts, or those that share someone's personal information or whatnot; it's not a thing I've found the need to do often, and I hate taking that 'nuclear option', but it has happened a few times.

However, I do tend to feel fairly strongly that if I were to take an action like that, I should leave a placeholder with a note as to why the post was deleted. Something like "Mod note: This post was removed because it shared another poster's physical house address. Not cool, folks." Both for the sake of context as to why the deletion happened, and context for all the other comments in the thread that might be going "WHOA, that's crossing a few lines there." in response to the post that gets nuked. If I'm going to erase part of a conversation or lock a thread, I want people to see my reasoning, not just the result. They might not agree with it, but they should at least know it.

(And yes, one of the few times I ever deleted a post's content outright on a forum I helped run, it actually literally was another poster trying to dox someone they disagreed with. And the disagreement was over differing interpretations of a specific character's actions in a book. Which was just... so much yikes.)

So I will admit that this part -- that it vanished silently, entirely, and without notice to the poster -- bothers me a bit, yeah.

But as I said, I'm not really very comfortable second-guessing the mod team's actions on any board where I'm just a poster; even if this wasn't how I would handle things, I have no idea what guidelines they've been given in terms of keeping the forums from becoming a mosh pit, or whether there's a reason for them to want things to be handled this way based on some past event. I suspect I'm lacking the full context.

But I suspect that is also the heart of the issue Qriist has with this: not having context as to why a thing was handled the way it was.

And that is entirely understandable to take issue with.

[Qriist]

18 hours ago, Packetdancer said:

But I suspect that is also the heart of the issue Qriist has with this: not having context as to why a thing was handled the way it was.

This post was also removed. I give up.

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Letter13
If a post of yours is removed, you really shouldn't be re-posting it.

[NekroArts]

18 minutes ago, Qriist said:

This post was also removed. I give up.

I knew from memory to why such things can happen and found two post in the past that explains it - if you quoted [or reference] one that did violate the rules it can also be subjected for deletion.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by NekroArts

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

3 hours ago, Packetdancer said:

So I will admit that this part -- that it vanished silently, entirely, and without notice to the poster -- bothers me a bit, yeah.

Yes and it bothered me and @Qriist too! 

@NekroArts I have made several attemps and NEVER have I received a response to ANY inquiry! 

@SneakyErvin  I know threads can be merged into one giant blob of discombobulated posts, but I can assure you, after many search inquiries, it was not merged, it was DELETED with no explanation given, even after several Support inquiries, nothing, 10+ pages of dialogue gone, poof!.  It was extremely frustrating and disheartening to be so casually silenced.  Several years ago I got a "WARNING" for defending myself using the exact same language that was used to verbally attack me first, yet I was penalized for being abusive.  I was never allowed to refute or explain the situation or the particulars of the matter to any "authority" or whoever monitors the Forum Mods, despite several attempts on my part.    Wearing a Scarlet Letter A for a year, without any due process, has forever tarnished my Forum experience but I persevere in the hopes that my/our voices will effect change, to make Warframe even better!
( Cue Inspirational Music )

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[NekroArts]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

 I have made several attemps and NEVER have I received a response to ANY inquiry! 

The inquiry is not the point I was making.

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

50 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

The inquiry is not the point I was making.

Yes I understand, my response was not a summation of your point, but an additional bit of info to digest that pertains to the discussion topic being removal of user comments.

[Packetdancer]

8 hours ago, Qriist said:

This post was also removed. I give up.

All I can think of is point 6 from the forum guidelines:

Quote

6) COMPLAINTS – We will not tolerate inappropriate, aggressive, or hostile complaints posted on the Forums. If you have a complaint about a player, report the issue. If you have a complaint about how your behavior on the forums has been moderated, send the Moderator a private message. They will do what they can to sort out any issues. 

I didn't think the comments here were particularly hostile/aggressive, admittedly, but that seems like the only rule under which they might've been likely to be vaporized.

(As opposed to the aforementioned tauforged shard thread, which I do feel had become an unredeemable pit of bile and venom by the time it was consigned to the land of wind and ghosts.)

Might be worth reaching out to an individual mod directly? 🫤

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, Qriist said:

1) You entirely ignored my last post where I pointed out the censorship in this very thread.

 

2) One day you'll pour your heart into a sentiment, express something unique to your perspective, and you'll be censored.

Your emotions will be scrubbed from existance; your point of view invalidated; your speech chilled.

You will be confused. You will wail "I didn't mean like this." You will beg the authorities to reverse their decision.

It may happen soon or it may take years, but it will happen, because it always happens to the people who simp for censorship.

At that time I will point, and I will laugh, and I will do nothing except watch you reap what you have sown. 🍿

Nope, but it got removed for a reason. Maybe go and read up on the forums guidlines and you'll figure out why. There are several different infractions a complaint over a past thread can make. Meta complaining, attacking mod decisions, circumventing the lockdown/removal of a thread/post and so on. This is not some DE specific thing either, it is practically on any game forum.

14 hours ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

Yes and it bothered me and @Qriist too! 

@NekroArts I have made several attemps and NEVER have I received a response to ANY inquiry! 

@SneakyErvin  I know threads can be merged into one giant blob of discombobulated posts, but I can assure you, after many search inquiries, it was not merged, it was DELETED with no explanation given, even after several Support inquiries, nothing, 10+ pages of dialogue gone, poof!.  It was extremely frustrating and disheartening to be so casually silenced.  Several years ago I got a "WARNING" for defending myself using the exact same language that was used to verbally attack me first, yet I was penalized for being abusive.  I was never allowed to refute or explain the situation or the particulars of the matter to any "authority" or whoever monitors the Forum Mods, despite several attempts on my part.    Wearing a Scarlet Letter A for a year, without any due process, has forever tarnished my Forum experience but I persevere in the hopes that my/our voices will effect change, to make Warframe even better!
( Cue Inspirational Music )

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

First of you arent entitled to get any answers if something is removed unless it violates something so bad that you also end up with a warning. Secondly, sending multiple inquiries without getting answers will not increase your chance to recieve answers, quite the opposite instead. That applies to both game related helpdesk tickets and those regarding the forums. 

I've also been in your boat regarding warnings, but I've never questioned it since it has been crystal clear. Just because someone else uses the language against you first there is no reason for you to use it in return. So of course you got penalized for being abusive in such a case, just as it has happened for me a couple of times over. And I fully respect their decisions towards my behavior, since I could have been the bigger person and not engaged at the level of the other party. There would have been nothing for you to explain, since you decided not to take the high road. You did say the things you said no matter if someone else also said it.

If you cant stand for what you say, the most simple solution is to not say anything at all.

The world would be a better place if everyone started to read Havamal.

[Letter13]

16 hours ago, Qriist said:

This post was also removed. I give up.

When your entire basis for your complaints about your being moderated is 'Why can't I make posts that bash people with physical disabilities or injuries and encourage excluding them from the game?' it really shouldn't come as a surprise that you got moderated.

 

I told you this before, privately (but now I'm doing so publicly since you seem keen on making a fuss about it): It's not a good look.

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

49 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

*snip

 Thank you for sharing your pearls of wisdom.  You are an inspiration for us all.

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

Edited October 14, 2023 by (XBOX)sinamanthediva
added text for clarity

[SneakyErvin]

44 minutes ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

 Thank you for sharing your pearls of wisdom.  You are an inspiration for us all.

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

With that snarky sounding comment towards a simple clarification of what applies to tickets and the forums in general you still think people will believe that the moderated threads/posts of yours were an innocent getting hit?

[Zimzala]

When ever I need a good laugh, these forums always deliver.

Some of you literally sound like children on a playground fighting over made up dodge ball rules as if they have some greater meaning in society, it's frickin' hilarious.

All over how you get to kvetch and moan about each others opinions on a video game.

You folks are too funny and some of you have a lot to learn about how the world works, so it's great you can learn here where there are no real consequences.

Ah, rules lawyers, they do entertain.

Thanks again for the Saturday morning entertainment!

[Qriist]

8 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

some of you have a lot to learn about how the world works

Agreed.

[Sovyul]

Or perhaps they do, and this is a form of escapism

[Qriist]

4 hours ago, Letter13 said:

I told you this before, privately (but now I'm doing so publicly since you seem keen on making a fuss about it): It's not a good look.

Your opinion means nothing to me; I've seen what makes you cheer.

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 hours ago, Qriist said:

Your opinion means nothing to me; I've seen what makes you cheer.

Whoah!

Completely off topic, but I was recently thinking that exact phrase in some of the topics that discussed what makes a thing fun or not.

It’s weird to see my thoughts spoken aloud by someone else in a completely different context. Not important though, carry on

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

11 hours ago, Zimzala said:

You folks are too funny and some of you have a lot to learn about how the world works, so it's great you can learn here where there are no real consequences.

the real world works the way it does because no one does anything good, and when good is finally done a large group of bad comes along and nullifies or supresses it whilst the "good" watch from the side lines instead of actively helping ( Not specifically mentioning anything other than 1 good 100 bad )

I'm not going to bother explaining Morals and Good shouldn't do "bad" because 'no reason or explaination here' as to why

 

Im not going to quote it but, you Correctly were Clear,  though unsure as to how much

Edited October 15, 2023 by (XBOX)Mastermitchel89

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

On 2023-10-14 at 5:16 AM, SneakyErvin said:

If you cant stand for what you say, the most simple solution is to not say anything at all.

So are saying to not defend yourself against personal attacks upon your character?  I stood up for what I said and continue to say and silence is not an option, for me.  You do you.

On 2023-10-14 at 6:43 AM, SneakyErvin said:

With that snarky sounding comment towards a simple clarification of what applies to tickets and the forums in general you still think people will believe that the moderated threads/posts of yours were an innocent getting hit?

To quote a wise fellow Tenno:

On 2023-10-14 at 10:29 AM, Qriist said:

Your opinion means nothing to me.

Unless you know exactly what transpired, you not in a position to make any opinion about it. Period. Full Stop!  You are providing only a negative portrayal me and the situation that I casually mentioned, of which you have no evidence to provide other than your gross interpretation of MY experience.  You were hostile at the get go towards me so don't patronize me with acting like you don't deserve any snarkyness that might be reflected back at you.

Additionally, you implied that I spammed emails demanding results, which was not the case.  I sent 2 emails to the Mod in question, several weeks apart in an effort to be allowed the opportunity to explain any questions or concerns that led to my warning point.  I wanted clarification of the reasons because there were undertones of discrimination that I wanted to be addressed.  It was never resolved but I have moved on and so should you. 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

On 2023-10-14 at 8:18 AM, Zimzala said:

When ever I need a good laugh, these forums always deliver.

Some of you literally sound like children on a playground fighting over made up dodge ball rules as if they have some greater meaning in society, it's frickin' hilarious.

All over how you get to kvetch and moan about each others opinions on a video game.

You folks are too funny and some of you have a lot to learn about how the world works, so it's great you can learn here where there are no real consequences.

Ah, rules lawyers, they do entertain.

Thanks again for the Saturday morning entertainment!

Yes the Forums always provide a good show.
To quote a much beloved and now gone, entertainment guru:

His comedic genius transcended all ages and will be missed.

RIP Pee Wee and thank you for your many years of silliness that brought a smile to young and old alike!

_{(A bit off topic so I apologize)}

[SneakyErvin]

10 hours ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

So are saying to not defend yourself against personal attacks upon your character?  I stood up for what I said and continue to say and silence is not an option, for me.  You do you.

To quote a wise fellow Tenno:

Unless you know exactly what transpired, you not in a position to make any opinion about it. Period. Full Stop!  You are providing only a negative portrayal me and the situation that I casually mentioned, of which you have no evidence to provide other than your gross interpretation of MY experience.  You were hostile at the get go towards me so don't patronize me with acting like you don't deserve any snarkyness that might be reflected back at you.

Additionally, you implied that I spammed emails demanding results, which was not the case.  I sent 2 emails to the Mod in question, several weeks apart in an effort to be allowed the opportunity to explain any questions or concerns that led to my warning point.  I wanted clarification of the reasons because there were undertones of discrimination that I wanted to be addressed.  It was never resolved but I have moved on and so should you. 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

Of course you should defend yourself. I'm saying stand for what you say, no matter what it might lead to. However that doesnt mean it is OK to sink to their level and expect no reprimand for it. If it is verbally abusive one way it is very likely just as abusive the otherway. At that point they have no reason to explain why since you arent entitled to know why when you should know why without having to ask in the first place. And I'm not telling you to not sink to their level or go limb for an eye, head for a tooth, I'm only saying dont expect to get away with it if you know it is inappropriate. Stand for your actions and embrace the fallout.

I'm also not providing any negative portrayal, I'm simply going on what you revealed yourself, nothing else. And how have I been hostile? Where exactly did you get that impression. I simply gave a heads up on how things work and what to expect.

Also you claiming that I implied you had spammed emails is a fabrication. Never once did I imply that. Ontop of that, where I mentioned multiple (2+) was in relation to your closed thread, not your warnings. As to discrimination involved, that shouldnt matter for the actions taken, since as you said you were abusive in return. Now if you didnt use discrimatory language you likely got off easier than the other party, whom likely also got actions taken against their account based on what they said. Which in return is nothing you have the right to know, just as you arent allowed to get information if a report within the game led to actions taken against the player reported or not.

But please do point out my hostility or patronizing behavior towards you.

 

[Zimzala]

11 hours ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

His comedic genius transcended all ages and will be missed.

Too true.

His genius showed us how to laugh at our antics, so he lives forever.

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

On 2023-10-14 at 5:16 AM, SneakyErvin said:

entitled

This word generally is associated with negative connotations so I apologize if I misread your post.  I don't see any need to discuss further what only I know occurred.  Thank you for your input. 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

 

8 hours ago, Zimzala said:

Too true.

His genius showed us how to laugh at our antics, so he lives forever.

Well said! 

I am sad that my Pee Wee Herman Collection is on VHS and don't have a player now! Ugh!  I'm sure I can find one cheap on Ebay! Lol

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[Packetdancer]

44 minutes ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

This word generally is associated with negative connotations so I apologize if I misread your post.

As a brief aside, the word itself is not inherently negative. For instance, "You finished running the marathon, thus are entitled to the participation award we promised" is not a negative remark. At its heart, the word just means "deserving of this thing" and, in that statement, yes, in fact, you do deserve the thing you were promised! It's generally only used as a negative when describing a person, like "boy, Karen is sure entitled" meaning that Karen thinks she deserves everything she wants, always, regardless of the situation.

(This is a minor pet peeve of mine as a writer.)

So I didn't take SneakyErvin's "you aren't entitled to an explanation" as necessarily being meant to speak badly of you, more to just comment on what the rules of the forum are set up as. After all, if the forum guidelines said they were required to state why they removed something, then you would, in fact, be entitled to an explanation under those rules.

Pure prose communication is weirdly imprecise at times (especially when tempers are starting to run hot), since minus cues like tone-of-voice and facial expression, it's easy to assume someone means the worst possible interpretation of whatever they said. But I find my online life much healthier if I just tell myself to always assume they mean the best interpretation. Maybe they do, and hey, thus there's no misunderstanding! And maybe they did mean it in the bad or insulting way... but I'm probably better off not engaging in a shouting match regardless.

...anyway, writer venting done, carry on.