Is it okay when the dev said it's too much work for them to fix a bug so they decide not to?

[kyori]

Seems you now have played long enough to know more about things lol

Anyway you have the choice of continue supporting and playing the game or not.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

5 hours ago, Kooooooooooooooo said:

Does it really need to take a month to make changes to each ability one by one in order to fix the problem?

Well, to answer that let's ask a question. Who is the one actually programming the game? My guess is the the one who is actually programming the game knows how long it'll actually take to fix it. 

And while this is a bug, it's a minor inconvenience at worse. Just recast the ability. Simple as that.

[Nekomian]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Pablo literally said fixing bugs isn't worth the money. "is it worth a programmer for a month?"

To be clear, this is referring to using an existing coder's time that would be spent on content updates, other bug fixes, or QoL changes rather than this one specific bug, not hiring another programmer or ignoring bug fixes outright. It's specifically referring to this one bug and the scope of it vs the effort it would take to fix it. No one is saying "fixing bugs isn't worth the money", it's "this particular bug is not worth the effort we'd have to go through to resolve this one issue vs the many other bug fixes and tasks we have at hand and could be working on".

I still think they should make some efforts to get it in a better state, since Umbra's sentience is kind of a cool unique mechanic and it would be nice to not have it break helminth abilities in that way, but I also understand they have to do cost vs benefit analysis for their time allocation and focus on prioritizing more wide-reaching fixes and content since their time is limited.

5 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

So I'd suggest: hire more programmers?

While that idea seems good on paper (i.e. more coders, more work done!), at some point it does hit diminishing returns - with a code base as large as Warframe has, there's issues where people end up waiting on others to finalize commits / changes or have to take weeks to train if they're new to get caught up to speed on where everything is and what tasks they should be focusing on, and oftentimes people may have to go in after others and correct mistakes that lead to bugs or have unintended runtime effects due to their implementations. It's that same adage about there being "too many cooks" in the kitchen and it can cause a mess. I don't know how large their coding teams are or what their structure is like to know if adding more people would be better or worse, but it's definitely a balancing act compared to say something like hiring more artists or animators and divvying out independent tasks that can all be done concurrently.

[SDGDen]

8 minutes ago, Naroxas44 said:

While that idea seems good on paper (i.e. more coders, more work done!), at some point it does hit diminishing returns - with a code base as large as Warframe has, there's issues where people end up waiting on others to finalize commits / changes or have to take weeks to train if they're new to get caught up to speed on where everything is and what tasks they should be focusing on, and oftentimes people may have to go in after others and correct mistakes that lead to bugs or have unintended runtime effects due to their implementations. It's that same adage about there being "too many cooks" in the kitchen and it can cause a mess. I don't know how large their coding teams are or what their structure is like to know if adding more people would be better or worse, but it's definitely a balancing act compared to say something like hiring more artists or animators and divvying out independent tasks that can all be done concurrently.

also, hiring more programmers just to fix bugs is a terrible idea in this case because to find bugs you have to understand how the entire game works under the hood, and warframe is EXTREMELY custom compared to many other modern games. it runs on DE's in-house evolution engine and from what i understand, some of the programming is done at a very low level (assembly). it'd take months of training new programmers even if they're experienced game devs just because they'd have to be familiarized with the way is supposed to work under the hood.

during those months, you'd lose a bunch of devs because they'd have to train those new devs. 

[SteveCutler]

If it takes an entire month for one of their programmers to fix this, then please hire me. I'll have it sorted on day one. :)

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

Big company! lol

Do you know who owns DE and can offer funding, talent, and resources? One of the largest gaming companies in the world, Tencent.

1 hour ago, kyori said:

Seems you now have played long enough to know more about things lol

Anyway you have the choice of continue supporting and playing the game or not.

This is not a good excuse for any company, and I'm not even talking about DE.

[Nekomian]

10 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

it runs on DE's in-house evolution engine and from what i understand, some of the programming is done at a very low level (assembly). it'd take months of training new programmers even if they're experienced game devs just because they'd have to be familiarized with the way is supposed to work under the hood.

This first part is also true - you could normally hire devs experienced with Unity or UE4/5 and have them familiar with those tools already, but everything related to the evolution engine is in-house. It's gonna take a lot longer to train someone on all of that. Regarding the second part - I'm not sure if they would do much coding in x64 assembly since the game is cross-platform and they ideally would not want architecture specific code on each build to accomplish some task if it could be written in C++ and compiled to work on all platforms, but I'm sure there's some exceptions to this that maybe one or two people are trained on in case it's needed. I just wouldn't think it would be required that often is all.

[Traumtulpe]

43 minutes ago, Naroxas44 said:

this is referring to using an existing coder's time that would be spent on content updates, other bug fixes, or QoL changes

While that idea seems good on paper (i.e. more coders, more work done!), at some point it does hit diminishing returns

So we don't have enough people to fix bugs, but if we had more people it wouldn't help either. I guess we'll just *have to* continue not fixing bugs then, a real shame that.

Did you know you can prove Christianity true with the Bible? And the Bible is saying the truth because it's dictated by god, obviously. Flawless proof, right?

[TeaHands]

[Zimzala]

Some of the posters here are hilarious.

It's like watching teenagers try and solve world peace by saying 'everyone just chill'.

Code bases of this type and size take a lot of time and energy to troubleshoot, let alone fix, when a change must impact each major item (frames) and then be put through the coding deployment process.

I have seen underinformed customers try to tell software developers they could just 'fix it in a day' if they were allowed, with no clue as to how things actually work for a couple decades now.

Sheer willpower and desire for change will not fix code bugs.

I get it.

Some of you LIVE to call out DE and WF for mistakes, thinking YOU can save the whole game in a matter of days because you are such good developers.

Some of you think each one of those code bugs is a personal slight toward you, a direct personal attack on your fun.

Some of you simply do not have the life experience to understand ROI.

Some of you just want what you want and don't care how much others have to sacrifice for you to get it.

Just a bunch of underinformed drivel. 

I think watching this same topic over and over for 20+ years on forums is still amusing, to see the underinformed think they can fix everything with ease, when history and reality is right there to prove them wrong.

I ask again.

Is everything you do perfect?

Do the companies you work for, the organizations with with whom you apply your work efforts, the products and services provided to others in which you participate...are they all 'bug free' and perfect?

Not even NASA makes bug free code.

Get over it.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Zimzala
words

[Keiyadan]

to be fair it took three years to remove a bad syndicate medallion spwan so i guess a month is way to fast

but it is not like i know programming or anything that would help me understand what needs to be done

[Nekomian]

20 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

So we don't have enough people to fix bugs, but if we had more people it wouldn't help either. I guess we'll just *have to* continue not fixing bugs then, a real shame that.

I quite literally did not say that, but you're free to interpret "too many people can lead to problems" as "no one is fixing bugs" if you really want, despite me stating it's just this one specific bug that does not probably warrant the time investment vs fixing all sorts of other things with higher priority.

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, SteveCutler said:

If it takes an entire month for one of their programmers to fix this, then please hire me. I'll have it sorted on day one. :)

Somehow, I don't believe you.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

38 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I guess we'll just *have to* continue not fixing bugs then, a real shame that.

Or they can focus on bugs thats not as game breaking 

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

23 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Some of the posters here are hilarious.

It's like watching teenagers try and solve world peace by saying 'everyone just chill'.

Code bases of this type and size take a lot of time and energy to troubleshoot, let alone fix, when a change must impact each major item (frames) and then be put through the coding deployment process.

I have seen underinformed customers try to tell software developers they could just 'fix it in a day' if they were allowed, with no clue as to how things actually work for a couple decades now.

Sheer willpower and desire for change will not fix code bugs.

I get it.

Some of you LIVE to call out DE and WF for mistakes, thinking YOU can save the whole game in a matter of days because you are such good developers.

Some of you think each one of those code bugs is a personal slight toward you, a direct personal attack on your fun.

Some of you simply do not have the life experience to understand ROI.

Some of you just want what you want and don't care how much others have to sacrifice for you to get it.

Just a bunch of underinformed drivel. 

I think watching this same topic over and over for 20+ years on forums is still amusing, to see the underinformed think they can fix everything with ease, when history and reality is right there to prove them wrong.

I ask again.

Is everything you do perfect?

Do the companies you work for, the organizations with with whom you apply your work efforts, the products and services provided to others in which you participate...are they all 'bug free' and perfect?

Not even NASA makes bug free code.

Get over it.

That's a whole lotta words for saying DE doesn't know how to prioritize things. There is a difference between bugs here and there and bugs that are 5+ years old.

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

That's a whole lotta words for saying DE doesn't know how to prioritize things. There is a difference between bugs here and there and bugs that are 5+ years old.

Yeah, older bugs are likely harder to fix.

And?

I know you live for attacking DE, based on your post history, so anyone that does not attack them is your enemy, as you have shown me with your prose, but all you are trying to do now is attack the code management pipeline instead of the developers themselves, as if that somehow creates more time and money to fix things.

It's a strawman.

This is just you trying desperately to get more people to hate on DE, it's kind of sad to see people like you attack the very people who create the entertainment you crave.

I pity you and those like you.

If you actually thought you could do better, you would, but you are just another armchair pundit with no real skill or power here.

[Traumtulpe]

It's really funny how even the developers themselve just shrug and say "bugfixing isn't cost effective", but the white knights didn't get the memo and keep banging on about how bugfixing is hard, how we couldn't do it any better, how DE is doing their best...

Meanwhile it takes them what, 3 years of constant nagging until they restore a simple numerical value back to 100% after they accidentally cut it in half one patch. I'm sure that was hard work, I couldn't possibly understand how to change a number in the code back to it's original value without 10 years of working as a programmer.

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

It's really funny how even the developers themselve just shrug and say "bugfixing isn't cost effective", but the white knights didn't get the memo and keep banging on about how bugfixing is hard, how we couldn't do it any better, how DE is doing their best...

Meanwhile it takes them what, 3 years of constant nagging until they restore a simple numerical value back to 100% after they accidentally cut it in half one patch. I'm sure that was hard work, I couldn't possibly understand how to change a number in the code back to it's original value without 10 years of working as a programmer.

It's really funny how gamers like to twist the words of fellow gamers into a negative bent in some silly effort to be 'right', and this is a fine case in point.

If you really have this level of animosity toward the developers of an entertainment product, then I can only conclude the only reason you are still here is that you are a masochist that likes to insult game developers while calling anyone that disagrees silly names that have no real meaning beyond code speak for 'those that will not hate with me'.

If you still play the game, that's just hilariously sad. 

Need a number to a good divorce lawyer so you can move on with your life?

[Traumtulpe]

Just now, Zimzala said:

It's really funny how gamers like to twist the words of fellow gamers into a negative bent in some silly effort to be 'right', and this is a fine case in point.

If you really have this level of animosity toward the developers of an entertainment product, then I can only conclude the only reason you are still here is that you are a masochist that likes to insult game developers while calling anyone that disagrees silly names that have no real meaning beyond code speak for 'those that will not hate with me'.

If you still play the game, that's just hilariously sad. 

Need a number to a good divorce lawyer so you can move on with your life?

And now we're stooping to personal attacks and ad hominem in the desperate effort do justify bugs not getting fixed. Yeah, it's all my fault that DE can't fix their bugs, right right.

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

2 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Need a number to a good divorce lawyer so you can move on with your life?

What a weird sentence.

[Traumtulpe]

We went from "DE is doing their best" to "you couldn't do it better" to "if you still play the game that's on you". Where have I seen that behaviour?

[Zimzala]

2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

And now we're stooping to personal attacks and ad hominem in the desperate effort do justify bugs not getting fixed. Yeah, it's all my fault that DE can't fix their bugs, right right.

And now you play the martyr?

Who said anywhere any of this was 'your fault'?

Wow. You really, really get bent over game bugs, huh?

I point out how you appear, feel free to change that appearance! 

And let's be clear, you brought out sophomoric 'white knight' BS.

 

2 minutes ago, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

What a weird sentence.

It's an old, arguably not very funny joke, that after playing the game for thousands of hours, many people that play WF and similar service games need help to put down the game and move on with their lives after the game is no longer fun and becomes just a bad habit.

So, I offer to help find a divorce lawyer for to help the sad gamer move on with life.

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

Just now, Zimzala said:

So, I offer to help find a divorce lawyer for to help the sad gamer move on with life.

Argh i see, maybe with your toxicity to anyone who gives their opinions on the game you should take your own advice perhaps:)

[Zimzala]

Just now, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

Argh i see, maybe with your toxicity to anyone who gives their opinions on the game you should take your own advice perhaps:)

Nice try.

I thought this was a public-ish forum for all of us to share out POVs, not just to entertain those who would kvetch and moan about things?

I still play and enjoy the game, much to the chagrin of the DE haters.

Opinions are not sacrosanct, and if posted in a public forum, should be ready for dissent.

Welcome to the Internet, new here?

[Genitive]

Having bugs lingering is really, really frustrating. However, those bugs are usually not gamebreaking. Or, as in this case, affect a small minority of players. Serious bugs usually get sorted out fairly quickly.

I myself have been making threads about certain issues that haven't been addressed for years, but making fixes is not as easy as some people here make it out to be, and developers have have to track a lot of things (really, a lot) in order to make sure the game doesn't fall apart.