Story Skip: Compilation of why this is a bad idea

[-Krism-]

To the moderators: This thread is only to be used as a kind of repository for easy finding & not to replace the original discussion thread, please, do not merge this with the original one as to not get this compilation of comments & reasons lost in the many pages it already has & the even more to come

 

Trying to compile all the "No"s so far from everyone's comments, as I am on this side:

• -New players will just get lost & confused suddenly playing the very end of the story with no context to what happened previously, 
  • Let them play the game, not a read/listen to a 20 min recap of the fifteen quests they have never played
    • -Show, don't tell

 

• All quests serve as tutorials for new gameplay additions, (e.g. Operators, Archwings, Railjack, Necramechs, & so on)
  • You can't buy skill & knowledge
    • This includes players skipping straight to things like Shadow Stalker & Sentients adaptation mechanic
  • New players will get overwhelmed by giving them instant access to all of those systems at once

 

• Investment: New players will not care for the story &/or characters they've never seen before & have no attachments to
  • They will have 0 attachment to the game due to them having skipped the story
  • From @(PSN)FirmBizkit's post: "The FFXIV subreddit is constantly littered with posts and comments of people who skipped the story and now regret it or people who have dropped the game because they have no care for the world because they have nothing tying them to it."
    • Full thread here: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1370435-a-new-players-perspective-skipping-story/

 

• Imagine yourselves as a new player, you finished the first quest of the game & are greeted by "Pay to skip the story to the very end", how do you think that would make them feel?
  • Simply put, it looks bad to offer a new player to skip your story
  • Imagine playing Skyrim, & right after you exit Helgen, the game tells you that you can skip straight to Sovngarde to kill Alduin, never learning how to use your equipment, magic, or even learning what Shouts are; you kill Alduin, & that's it, you beat the game

 

• Retention: Players who just finished the very last quest of the game before the older ones won't necessarily have any reason to keep playing
  • Power Level: The players who paid won't have any reason to actually play the game to get new gear as you will have given them everything they need to progress

 

• You've been removing more & more grind walls & streamlined the whole game specifically for this reason, so, what was the point if you're just gonna add a skip everything button?
  • As Josh Strife Hayes says in his video It Gets Better After 100 Hours..., if you really think new players will quit because there's "too much content to go through", how about just, you know, making it good & enjoyable in the first place?

 

• New players do not have 10 years of content to go through, someone in the original post said they reached The New War with a new account in about 15 hours in total
  • MR requirements for quests takes even more time to progress & makes it much more tedious
  • Yes, it is from someone who already knows the game, but you should also not expect a new player to beat this kind of game in two or three days

 

• If this goes through, the game will be known by everyone, even those who never played before, for being Pay To Not Play, & will severely tarnish its reputation; In the end, it will have the opposite effect

 

 

EDIT & Possible Solution:

All in all, new players that use Pay2Skip will only get confused at everything, story & gameplay, & will leave the game having only experienced the very end before anything else

Further streamlining the quests' progression should be a priority over simply skipping it, remove useless prerequisites & timegates

Edited October 31, 2023 by -Krism-

[(XBOX)Hellsteeth30]

I mentioned it's kind of a disservice to the Devs who designed, built and wrote the content.  Bit of an FU to them if John Newberry just skips it.

Despite the consensus of New War in particular being a bit iffy, it was very well presented.  Just it's 5-6 hour wall you have to climb to get back to Warframe.

Second Dream is considered a must see.

I personally like a frame as to why I'm doing what I'm doing in universe.  Plus I feel I earned my spot doing most of the stuff everybody else has done.

 

[KIREEK]

Pay to skip essentially makes the "hero's journey" into just the "hero", no sense of acomplisment, no learning, no bond with the game, the story or your grind really.
It's a form of FOMO, if you don't play the game then you'll be missing out the fun other players are having, it's a way DE has found to try and exaust the plat the community has, potentially even making some users pay for said plat.

I don't care either way since i plan on playing the game (that's the point of the game afterall) but i know the players that do buy the content will know litle to nothing and won't be around for long, since they couldn't even bother with the earlier portions of the game which are arguably quite good.

This entire sob story with "we're doing it for the poor players who feel like they are missing out on the latest content we advertised" is what irks me really, i know why it's being done, FOMO is a lucrative strategy.

Edited October 28, 2023 by KIREEK

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

The thing is several mmos have this: despite Warframe not truly being an mmo, it still takes after them on several ways like having in-game trading and class types. 

Mmos have this so they can make you buy the dlc instead of slogging through all the old content (FFXIV ARR comes to mind) to get to it, which is kinda funny tbh because Warframe doesn't have any dlc or any sort of heavy endgame for people to want to get to (other than clearing rooms of 20 enemies at once).

Edited October 28, 2023 by (XBOX)Upl0rdYT

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

2 hours ago, -Krism- said:

 

• -New players will just get lost & confused suddenly playing the very end of the story with no context to what happened previously, 
  • Let them play the game, not a read/listen to a 20 min recap of the fifteen quests they have never played

New players are already lost and confused.  The game does not do a good job with the onboarding experience despite the devs efforts to do so.

2 hours ago, -Krism- said:

• All quests serve as tutorials for new gameplay additions, (e.g. Operators, Archwings, Railjack, Necramechs, & so on)

You can't buy skill & knowledge

They can simply make tutorials in a different way.  Of what you mentioned the game already doesn't ask you to use pretty much any of that consistently except for Operators.  To me it's simply a waste of time to force people to build these one off Arsenal pieces if the game isn't going to loop in their uses often.

2 hours ago, -Krism- said:

• Investment: New players will not care for the story &/or characters they've never seen before & have no attachments to

They will have 0 attachment to the game due to all skipping the story

That's narrowminded of you.  Not everyone plays games to be immersed in story or it's world.  Some people purely play for gameplay.  WF being as incredibly diverse with it's modding system (added onto via operators and the subsume system) that's more than enough reason to want to play.  WF didn't have a story to begin with and it's barely walking now in terms of it.  WF is not a story driven action RPG.  it's action combat first and people should have the option to get to that and where it's at it's best as soon as possible.

2 hours ago, -Krism- said:

• Imagine yourselves as a new player, you finished the first quest of the game & are greeted by "Pay to skip the story to the very end", how do you think that would make them feel?

Simply put, it looks bad to offer a new player to skip your story

It really doesn't.  FF14 is well known for how good it's story arcs are and new players are not forced to go through all of it in order to play with others.  No one thinks less of FF14 for having this option and it's pretty standard for most "mmo" like games.

2 hours ago, -Krism- said:

• Retention: Players who just finished the very last quest of the game before the older ones won't necessarily have any reason to keep playing

Power Level: The players who paid won't have any reason to actually play the game to get new gear as you will have given them everything they need to progress

So your telling me that you only play WF for quests whenever DE adds them?  You're telling me that the whole build crafting that WF is known for and loved for by many isn't a reason to keep playing?  It doesn't matter what DE gives the players to be able to start playing with their friends.  There's zero chance it will be anywhere comparable to a vets stacked available resources.  They will not have a fraction of what is possible to do in this game.

2 hours ago, -Krism- said:

• You've been removing more & more grind walls & streamlined the whole game specifically for this reason, so, what was the point if you're just gonna add a skip everything button?

Because having options is a good thing.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Hellsteeth30 said:

I mentioned it's kind of a disservice to the Devs who designed, built and wrote the content.  Bit of an FU to them if John Newberry just skips it.

Forcing someone to playthrough something they have no interest in doesn't respect the work the devs put into it either.  What a weird angle to argue from.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Hellsteeth30 said:

Despite the consensus of New War in particular being a bit iffy, it was very well presented.  Just it's 5-6 hour wall you have to climb to get back to Warframe.

Second Dream is considered a must see.

Not everyone plays for story.  I certainly don't.  WF's attempt at a cohesive narrative has some decent highs but it's not at all why I'd return to or recommend the game to others.  The robust systems that allow you to slurry hordes of enemies in every possible fashion you can think of is the selling point that I'd use.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Hellsteeth30 said:

I personally like a frame as to why I'm doing what I'm doing in universe.  Plus I feel I earned my spot doing most of the stuff everybody else has done.

 

Cool, not everyone has that same mindset.  Respect that others have different reasons for playing a game you're both interested in and don't gate keep it.

49 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

Pay to skip essentially makes the "hero's journey" into just the "hero", no sense of acomplisment, no learning, no bond with the game, the story or your grind really.
It's a form of FOMO, if you don't play the game then you'll be missing out the fun other players are having, it's a way DE has found to try and exaust the plat the community has, potentially even making some users pay for said plat.

I don't care either way since i plan on playing the game (that's the point of the game afterall) but i know the players that do buy the content will know litle to nothing and won't be around for long, since they couldn't even bother with the earlier portions of the game which are arguably quite good.

This entire sob story with "we're doing it for the poor players who feel like they are missing out on the latest content we advertised" is what irks me really, i know why it's being done, FOMO is a lucrative strategy.

I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics you have to do to think having an option to skip is FOMO.  It's not like this is Destiny where they regularly remove content for you to play.  The rest of your post is just headcannon with no actual defensible/arguable points.

48 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

The thing is several mmos have this: despite Warframe not truly being an mmo, it still takes after them on several ways like having in-game trading and class types. 

Mmos have this so they can make you buy the dlc instead of slogging through all the old content (FFXIV ARR comes to mind) to get to it, which is kinda funny tbh because Warframe doesn't have any dlc or any sort of heavy endgame for people to want to get to (other than clearing rooms of 20 enemies at once).

While I'd certainly rather the devs spend resources into developing a better onboarding system that actually strings the game into something even slightly cohesive that doesn't devolve into spending time waiting for stuff to build so you can go continue the other thing and get on to more story I also recognize that's probably pretty hard to do given what WF is.

I mean Destiny has a MUCH better narrative in terms of structure and pacing (they just drop the ball at telling actual stories with ends,) and this is something D2 struggles to do.  They also cannot make a good onboard experience and trying to catch up to relevant stuff even when streamlined can be a tall ask.  So they are also offering pay to skip options so to speak.  I think WF offering an option makes just as much sense.  The only negative take on it is DE is "asking for more money."  Which like, fine...But DE has done far worse than this.  At least this option is not at all intrusive and WF for the most part is still very F2P friendly.  Certainly much better than most other games that can be comparable.

[(PSN)rexis12]

It also does matter because the main issue of the grind killing player retention will still be there, only this time the players that paid to skip gave DE all those Cold Hard Cash instead of just wasting time.

Instead of all that, make the grind bearable if you want to fast track it so much. Make Older weapons and Warframes take less and less time to build. I know some friends that just quit the moment they saw that building a Rhino Systems would take 12 hours, and the main bp would take 3 days.

[KIREEK]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics you have to do to think having an option to skip is FOMO.  It's not like this is Destiny where they regularly remove content for you to

Paying to skip (regardless of the currency used) is to prey on the FOMO mentality, they know the player wants to be on par with the rest of the playerbase quickly, if you don't do that then you will be missing out.

What i'm saying isn't mental gymnastics, it has been like this for many years, it's not the 1st time a game has implemented this, it's widely known and has been discussed countless times

I essentially stated the obvious

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Just now, KIREEK said:

Paying to skip (regardless of the currency used) is to prey on the FOMO mentality, they know the player wants to be on par with the rest of the playerbase quickly, if you don't do that then you will be missing out.

What i'm saying isn't mental gymnastics, it has been like this for many years, it's not the 1st time a game has implemented this, it's widely known and has been discussed countless times

I essentially stated the obvious

Bro.  There is nothing they miss out on because DE does not remove content.  You're not stating anything obviously.  You're just making stuff up.

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

Bro.  There is nothing they miss out on because DE does not remove content.  You're not stating anything obviously.  You're just making stuff up.

they aren't missing out on it like a one time dev stream or event

They are missing out on being there when it happens

I missed out/ was late on Halo when it happened, and it feels weird to be late to the fun

That is FOMO.   More so Fear Of Being Left Out.  It stings, it hurts and many people are Vulnerable to it,  you don't need experience to know how it feels

Edited October 29, 2023 by (XBOX)Mastermitchel89

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

 

I mean Destiny has a MUCH better narrative in terms of structure and pacing (they just drop the ball at telling actual stories with ends,) and this is something D2 struggles to do.  They also cannot make a good onboard experience and trying to catch up to relevant stuff even when streamlined can be a tall ask.  So they are also offering pay to skip options so to speak.  I think WF offering an option makes just as much sense.  The only negative take on it is DE is "asking for more money."  Which like, fine...But DE has done far worse than this.  At least this option is not at all intrusive and WF for the most part is still very F2P friendly.  Certainly much better than most other games that can be comparable.

I'm currently playing d2 witch queen (I'm at the final mission) and I can say the story is really good, however yeah, multiple of their dlcs (beyond light, which I also bought, comes to mind) end up having the main content be outside the story with the story only being the doorway to it, instead of the major event that has serious long term effects. (For example, beyond light is really easy, I cleared it within like 2-3 hours, and didn't die at any of the boss fights with my gear being the equivalent of the lowest level nightfalls, and it's only really there for you to get stasis and do the raid.)

Edited October 29, 2023 by (XBOX)Upl0rdYT

[(PSN)FirmBizkit]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

The thing is several mmos have this: despite Warframe not truly being an mmo, it still takes after them on several ways like having in-game trading and class types. 

Mmos have this so they can make you buy the dlc instead of slogging through all the old content (FFXIV ARR comes to mind) to get to it, which is kinda funny tbh because Warframe doesn't have any dlc or any sort of heavy endgame for people to want to get to (other than clearing rooms of 20 enemies at once).

The difference between FFXIV and WF in that regard is FFXIV is supported by a multitude of different players and communities. In particular it’s strong RP community that doesn’t need a story tying them to the world because they are creating their own narratives. Probably half of the FFXIV community is the “second life” roleplayers. WF has no player driven narrative. It doesn’t have strong PvP. It is a purely PvE game in a PvE world without roleplaying that must have its narrative created for the player.

 

FFXIV is a theme park with an incredibly diverse set of experiences and an incredibly diverse community 

Edited October 29, 2023 by (PSN)FirmBizkit

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I want to preface my comment by saying, I am not really looking for a drawn out debate or argument or anything. I also don't really consider myself "on a side" on this issue, I also want to see more details and specifics on DE's side. I think some of these arguments are a bit flawed though, and wish to explain why, either to refine the argument or dispel it. 

First the idea new players will get lost and confused? Possibly yes, but that already happens. I regular see people on these very forums with the strangest takes, misinterpretations, misunderstandings of whats going on story and plot wise. Or they have forget some important details, or such details aren't that important to them, either because they don't care, or because they know they can just wiki the information or watch a lore dump video and jog their memory that way. So so what? Whats the actual harm here? Why the sudden concern for players mental clarity of the plot of a sci fi F2P game? At its most sincere? Like people who do want people to enjoy and experience the plot, I empathise and agree, but I personally wouldn't want to overstep either. Being "lost and confused" isn't a static state either, I also meet a lot of "lost and confused" vets, but often its more that they make the choice not to care as much as I do. If people are "lost and confused" its also relatively easy to get out of that state, you can come here, Youtube, Reddit, Wikia, or the Codex. Its really not that dire a concern, realistically. 

You literally can buy knowledge and skill. I know this, because I brought books, that taught me logic, rhetoric, linguistics, definitions, meaning. Skill, is a bit more complex, since its the application and implementation of knowledge, refined, practiced so on, but both terms are broad anyway. Also to be clear, you don't necessarily have to buy knowledge either, and despite how i started this paragraph, I understand the intent behind the phrasing... I just don't think it applies here, This isn't a wealthy out of shape Billionaire paying cash to climb Mount Everest or perform open heart surgery. Its a video game, and figuring out Operators, Archwings, Railjack, Necramechs isn't that hard. Game also has tip screens, NPC character instructions, voice lines, and, this might sound crazy to some, but you can also press buttons and see what they do and experiment and test out junk. You might fling yourself out of your Archwing and ground slam a sweet innocent Kuaka family, or you might have to redo or restart a section, but again, the consequences are not so dire. You are just moving about when players may encounter some difficulty, but difficulty isn't a bad thing, its just the part where people overcome the challenge, which is important to video game gameplay game loops. It can be bad sometimes sure, but thats usually more so with games with steep learning curves, and mechanically challenging gameplay with high punishing high pressure situations. Warframe does have some knowledge curves, gear checks etc but usually not as far as story stuff or just learning certain systems (like Operators, Archwings, Railjack, Necramechs).

I agree about investment but also again... you don't have to be a new player to not care or show apathy. This is also quite presumptive as well. I'll be blunt here, I am the kind of personality and person, that likes to start at the beginning. I got into comics young, at the time, some of them bothered me. Until I discovered Marvels Essential TPBs. Which for those that don't know, were basically super thick black and white phonebook sized collections, of like... 30 individual issues. Importantly, they started at the beginning. Thing is, I also learned that I can't be that way for everything, I would have missed out on some classic and great Superman stories if I forced myself to read Superman comic from its inception. A lot of peoples first exposure to Spider-man is the movies. As a fan of the comics, bit sad, but whatever. I don't think people should skip Warframe stuff, especially the story quests... but if they do? Let them! Maybe they will like the new quest so much, they will go back and start older quests and appreciate them more, whilst waiting for a new update. You can't just assume there aren't people like that as well, whilst believing some people will play a new quest and be disinterested because they lack investment, because that fits your narrative or argument better. I do think that could happen, but again... it already happens. Most people I know, already quit Warframe, near the beginning, because they also kacked investment and care. The beginning of the game, to many, isn't that interesting or compelling, and to many its also way too slow, and "grindy". Some people are going to bounce off the game, and leave anyway, regardless if some are given the option to skip or not. 

Imagine yourself a new player... and you do the first quest, then a screen pops up. "There will be 4 new Prime Warframes within the year, it can cost you $400 to get them, and if you want all the weapons in the game, and to be on the level of other players, it could cost upwards of thousands of dollars." technically true, how would that make you feel? Well without context and understanding that you can get Prime Warframes without buying Prime Access, and you don't have to spend Plat to get weapons, and with time and grinding you can get to other players levels, you might probably feel gross, which is why context and phrasing is important don't you think? Imagine if you yourself a new player, finished the first quest, and a message popped up "You will die someday". Eh eh? Bit of a silly argument and point to make no? Obviously if DE was that silly, then yes, I agree, but jeez. If you make things simple, by framing them simply, its not actually simple, its silly. A better alternative would be to have a bundle in the Market that is something like "Story Progression Unlock" with a description like "Catch up on all Warframe story quests, and the ability to bypass, in order to play new cinematic story quests, and brand new content by yourself or with your friends. Bundle contains Railjack, Necramech, Archwing, Excalibur Umbra, Nataruk, Broken War, 1 Week Affinity Booster, 1 Week Resource Booster, 500 Plat, your choice of a Warframe of your selection, and more. Then a disclaimer explaining you can revisit and replay past events if you choose, certain cinematic quests are single player only. Plus an explanation why this bundle is only recommended for people who want to skip progression, but with an emphasis that they designers and developers thing you may be robbing yourself of certain joy and entertainment" but what I said... but much better, rather than off the top of my head. Like crazy idea, but how you word and frame, and phrase things... important right? Obviously if you word things poorly, people will feel bad. Imagine as a new player, you finished the first quest and a pop up "Are you a bi%^$? Warframe is easy brah, but obviously you are a virgin that needs to skip to the end huh? Well go get daddys credit card to boost yourself to the end big boy!", how would that make you feel? No no sincerely, this is realistic, this is actually how DE will implement this feature. 

Retention. Maybe. Again though, feels a little presumptive. I like to help new players when i can. I am always a bit careful though, when it comes to how I help them. I could just randomly give them 50 Plat, but eh... I usually like to give them important mods instead, or some Prime parts. (or gift them slots) Without context, Plat doesn't actually mean much, and I think its important to try and encourage new players to find their own ways of making Plat. That its better to help them understand systems, and how to play the game, like modding, and resources, and managing them, as well as finding out what Warframes and weapons they like, and so on. Much of the game, does sort of rely on certain ideas, because thats just how the game was structured. If everything in the game, suddenly became free, then for many the game would feel weird... and off. Doing stuff to get a reward can feel good. This can be applied in many ways. However and once again... Warframe already has a retention problem. The term necessarily was used, and I like that, because its accurate, many people who play the last quest, won't necessarily stick around. True, accurate. Also true and accurate to every other quest, including the first. Are people ignorant to this or something? This isn't just true of Warframe, but all games generally. Its why so many AAA games are front loaded by design, why they often get a disproportionate amount of effort, time, money and resources. Games that are intended to have endings. Warframes issue is that its... 10 years old and ongoing... You don't have to have access to DEs internal numbers to know it has retention problems, even though its also fairly successful for its model type. Do people who think this, also think that people at DE have never thought about this in the abstract? The idea though, and this may be supported with data, internally and accessible elsewhere, that giving people, especially new, and lapsed, or stalled players (such features don't just apply to new players, which many overlook), more choices, options and freedoms, can actually help the retention problem, because a lot of people may enjoy the more recent quests than older quests. For a combination of factors. Some people just like new things, or doing the thing thats active and hyped up now. The social aspect. Then the downside? Even if they don't and bounce off the game, because of reasons listed or others? That already happens! Difference is that this may actually see better retention or offset certain problems, for a net positive. 

Some arguments I think are better or opinion I think are more realistic or empathise with more. Skepticism and cynicism with DE looking for ways to further increase monetisation of the game, especially in the context of players who may be more vulnerable to it. New, newer players, who may lack adequate context of what they are being asked. Especially if poorly implemented. The optics. Why does the game want me to skip so much? Is it bad? Encouraging players to skip past stuff, to overlook parts of the game, that they designed and how that essentially encourages poor design, even if potentially or in theory. You hated Railjack? Well just give us money. Mind you, that sort of already exists, but... therein specifics can matter. Like there are pros and cons to different specific examples. 1250 Platinum Incarnon pack. Get all the Incarnons from SP Circuit? Some who hate SP Circuit but what Incarnons might like... but some who feel that way, may not want to have to pay Plat to get them... and rather a FTP alternative. Then also whats even the point of the Circuit? Well different players, different preferences and priorities, gets muddled fast. Where some see choices and options, some see lack of design, execution, purpose. 

I think there is another simpler way to think about this option as well. Lets say hypothetically its implemented. Then in two years time, nothing really changes. Then what? Is this a situation of "I guess I was more worried than I needed to be", or "I still think its a bad idea, but they implemented it okay", not to assume it will be okay. Or that you shouldn't be weary or critical. I myself am weary and critical of a lot DE have done. Actually not sure if I think I want to support them as much financially anymore, because of the Heirloom situation, but.... if Whispers in the War, Warframe 1999 and Infested Liches are good quality, I might reassess that, personally. Especially if after all that, Lavos Prime, Xaku Prime, Protea Prime etc is released On the flip side, if there is another Heirloom issue thats around FOMO, the 10 Year Supporter Accolade and its acquirement method, inflated value bundles etc then I probably won't continue to support the game. Some people might consider that an overreaction, but what I am trying to get at, is that Warframe has had contentious issues over the years, but a lot of us are still here, so I am not trying to downplay that this idea is rosy and sunshine, but I do think that a lot of the arguments aren't that well objectively structured. Like in many cases it just straight up reflects and tells you more about the individual player and their mindset than anything bigger or more important. Like "I don't want to play with noobs who suck because they paid to skip", sure, but a lot of us don't really care if we are the one carrying, and care more about a persons attitude in PUB than whether they are good at the game. Also, I came across people in Archon Hunts all the time, that need carrying and its no big deal to me. A lot of the arguments are also framed based on assumptions or presuppositions of human nature. Except they are also often oversimplified and with not much nuance. Which I also understand, not everyone necessarily wants to explain the reasoning of their reasoning... 

I also appreciate the creation of this thread and the effort taken to compile arguments. I wish more threads were created in this style, because disagreement or discussion of contentious issues can be taxing and prone to miscommunication, misunderstandings and so on. It can be more neutral and laidback to address issues this way, to avoid how some conversations can get too personal or heated in that sense. So my thanks OP. 

[IggySnow]

Pretty much every argument of "new players will be confused/ be overwhelmed/ get bored/ wont be invested" etc are all moot because that's EXACTLY how new players feel already.

The only difference is that instead of new players being thrown to the wolves and basically told "just figure it out. hope you stick around for 50 hours to get to the second dream" they will instead get to skip all the grind and get access to the good stuff immediately.

Like lets be honest here. Warframe teaches players NOTHING. You're just expected to know what content is in the game. If you don't read all the patch notes, watch all the dev streams, look at the wiki, and watch warframe youtube creators, then you will be completely lost. It doesn't matter if you just finished Vores Prize, or just beat The New War.

Hell, if anything, giving players instant access to all the main quests could make the game less confusing and increase player retention for new players. Because the second they are done with the newest quest and played the new content, they will be able to go back and complete the older quests and unlock whatever content was locked behind that quest with 0 friction.

New players who skipped would be able to say to anyone "Hey I skipped to the new quest and have been doing the new content, but im getting kind of bored. What should I do?" and they will be instantly greeted with "Oh defiantly play the second dream. you'll get to start your focus school!" or "start the new war. You'll be so shocked how it ties into the duviri paradox! and you'll get to do archon hunts!" etc. And they will be able to instantly do that without having to unlock 9 planets.

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

My take from like 4 or 5 years has been that Warframe needs a story mode OUTSIDE of the star charts

That said story mode should contain all the operations and events that had been in the game since release (with the canon ending) because it's lore

The dialogues and tilesets are already done, it's just a matter of cleaning them up a bit (which takes time, but it's worth it imho)

The old events are also important because they introduced players to particular enemies and new game modes (at the time)

I'd totally replay just the story as a "flow" instead of just replay quests here and there

The story mode should give MOMENTARILY the tools needed to complete the story (Necramech, Railjack, Xoris, Archwing, whatever) and let the player grind the stuff in the starchart later

Completing a story section would unlock blueprints that could still remain Mastery Rank locked

As for the difficulty, it's just a slider to adjust for the EHP of enemies, eventually with 3 tiers (New player, Normal, Steel Path)

The New Player experience could even be made more fun tying some quest to some pre determined equipment and allowing new players to experience some Warframe and weapons before grinding them.

Even if it takes time to DE to put this thing in place, it totally removes every future problem, it's an investment on the future of the game, because after taking out the story from the starchart, it's all smooth sail

 

Also, many new players, thanks to the forced story would understand how the game work, because many new players drop because they don't know what to do, where to go

 

And again, I think it's an investment of time that would make even some veterans happy, besides solving a problem

I know I started after Nekros Prime release, so I missed a lot of Operations/Events, I would be very very happy to experience them for the first time IN GAME and not on wikia 

 

Not only, this would even legitimate a pay to unlock, because you offered the best solution, then if people wants to pay to unlock a narrated story, then it's up to them and their pockets

Edited October 29, 2023 by (PSN)OmegaSlayer

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

they aren't missing out on it like a one time dev stream or event

They are missing out on being there when it happens

I missed out/ was late on Halo when it happened, and it feels weird to be late to the fun

That is FOMO.   More so Fear Of Being Left Out.  It stings, it hurts and many people are Vulnerable to it,  you don't need experience to know how it feels

If that's the angle the argument is from then I don't see how adding a skip option makes that worse.  You have the ability to replay (afaik) the most important quests and you could push DE to simply make all quests if they have any story significance replayable.  

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

I'm currently playing d2 witch queen (I'm at the final mission) and I can say the story is really good, however yeah, multiple of their dlcs (beyond light, which I also bought, comes to mind) end up having the main content be outside the story with the story only being the doorway to it, instead of the major event that has serious long term effects. (For example, beyond light is really easy, I cleared it within like 2-3 hours, and didn't die at any of the boss fights with my gear being the equivalent of the lowest level nightfalls, and it's only really there for you to get stasis and do the raid.)

Yeah D2 is pretty inconsistent story wise.  I'm still a DLC Andy and return to experience the major expansions but beyond that I cbaed to stick around from season to season.  Bungie even from the Halo days has been good at world building and creating a universe you want to get stuck in.  They've never had a great track record with telling a good story from start to finish.  Which probably wouldn't suck so much if their DLC models were much better.  But that's a different discussion for another time.

3 hours ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

The difference between FFXIV and WF in that regard is FFXIV is supported by a multitude of different players and communities. In particular it’s strong RP community that doesn’t need a story tying them to the world because they are creating their own narratives. Probably half of the FFXIV community is the “second life” roleplayers. WF has no player driven narrative. It doesn’t have strong PvP. It is a purely PvE game in a PvE world without roleplaying that must have its narrative created for the player.

 

FFXIV is a theme park with an incredibly diverse set of experiences and an incredibly diverse community 

This doesn't work as a counter point because WF started without a "story."  Many of the oldest world building blocks have been repurposed/retconned or simply forgotten to time.  People were into WF because of it's combat systems and gritty atmosphere.  While some of the latter has faded over time the former has only continued to be built upon.  I don't doubt that there are some story Stans that are super invested into it.

But at the end of the day you play WF because you enjoy tinkering with the robust systems.  The actual difference between FF14 and WF is that FF14 needs it's world and it's immersive elements because the gameplay itself does not hold up due to a lack of variety in actual combat.  WF on the other hand can create entirely different experiences using the same stock loadouts.  Not even considering crafted weapons, Subsuming, Operators, etc.  Gameplay is king and it's what carries WF and always will.

[(PSN)FirmBizkit]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

If that's the angle the argument is from then I don't see how adding a skip option makes that worse.  You have the ability to replay (afaik) the most important quests and you could push DE to simply make all quests if they have any story significance replayable.  

Yeah D2 is pretty inconsistent story wise.  I'm still a DLC Andy and return to experience the major expansions but beyond that I cbaed to stick around from season to season.  Bungie even from the Halo days has been good at world building and creating a universe you want to get stuck in.  They've never had a great track record with telling a good story from start to finish.  Which probably wouldn't suck so much if their DLC models were much better.  But that's a different discussion for another time.

This doesn't work as a counter point because WF started without a "story."  Many of the oldest world building blocks have been repurposed/retconned or simply forgotten to time.  People were into WF because of it's combat systems and gritty atmosphere.  While some of the latter has faded over time the former has only continued to be built upon.  I don't doubt that there are some story Stans that are super invested into it.

But at the end of the day you play WF because you enjoy tinkering with the robust systems.  The actual difference between FF14 and WF is that FF14 needs it's world and it's immersive elements because the gameplay itself does not hold up due to a lack of variety in actual combat.  WF on the other hand can create entirely different experiences using the same stock loadouts.  Not even considering crafted weapons, Subsuming, Operators, etc.  Gameplay is king and it's what carries WF and always will.

I’m aware the story is heavily retconned but has the game not grown in popularity since it’s release? I’m relatively new and extremely prejudiced against F2P games so they must be doing something right to attract someone like me. I heard you used to have to pay for revives - WF is fun gameplay wise but there’s no way in hell I’d play with a paid stamina system. 

[-Krism-]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

New players are already lost and confused.  The game does not do a good job with the onboarding experience despite the devs efforts to do so.

They can simply make tutorials in a different way.  Of what you mentioned the game already doesn't ask you to use pretty much any of that consistently except for Operators.  To me it's simply a waste of time to force people to build these one off Arsenal pieces if the game isn't going to loop in their uses often.

That's narrowminded of you.  Not everyone plays games to be immersed in story or it's world.  Some people purely play for gameplay.  WF being as incredibly diverse with it's modding system (added onto via operators and the subsume system) that's more than enough reason to want to play.  WF didn't have a story to begin with and it's barely walking now in terms of it.  WF is not a story driven action RPG.  it's action combat first and people should have the option to get to that and where it's at it's best as soon as possible.

It really doesn't.  FF14 is well known for how good it's story arcs are and new players are not forced to go through all of it in order to play with others.  No one thinks less of FF14 for having this option and it's pretty standard for most "mmo" like games.

So your telling me that you only play WF for quests whenever DE adds them?  You're telling me that the whole build crafting that WF is known for and loved for by many isn't a reason to keep playing?  It doesn't matter what DE gives the players to be able to start playing with their friends.  There's zero chance it will be anywhere comparable to a vets stacked available resources.  They will not have a fraction of what is possible to do in this game.

Because having options is a good thing.

Forcing someone to playthrough something they have no interest in doesn't respect the work the devs put into it either.  What a weird angle to argue from.

Not everyone plays for story.  I certainly don't.  WF's attempt at a cohesive narrative has some decent highs but it's not at all why I'd return to or recommend the game to others.  The robust systems that allow you to slurry hordes of enemies in every possible fashion you can think of is the selling point that I'd use.

Cool, not everyone has that same mindset.  Respect that others have different reasons for playing a game you're both interested in and don't gate keep it.

I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics you have to do to think having an option to skip is FOMO.  It's not like this is Destiny where they regularly remove content for you to play.  The rest of your post is just headcannon with no actual defensible/arguable points.

While I'd certainly rather the devs spend resources into developing a better onboarding system that actually strings the game into something even slightly cohesive that doesn't devolve into spending time waiting for stuff to build so you can go continue the other thing and get on to more story I also recognize that's probably pretty hard to do given what WF is.

I mean Destiny has a MUCH better narrative in terms of structure and pacing (they just drop the ball at telling actual stories with ends,) and this is something D2 struggles to do.  They also cannot make a good onboard experience and trying to catch up to relevant stuff even when streamlined can be a tall ask.  So they are also offering pay to skip options so to speak.  I think WF offering an option makes just as much sense.  The only negative take on it is DE is "asking for more money."  Which like, fine...But DE has done far worse than this.  At least this option is not at all intrusive and WF for the most part is still very F2P friendly.  Certainly much better than most other games that can be comparable.

As I mentioned in my first post, this is only supposed to be a compilation & not a replacement for the original thread, if you want to have a discussion, do it on the original one:

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

8 hours ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

The difference between FFXIV and WF in that regard is FFXIV is supported by a multitude of different players and communities. In particular it’s strong RP community that doesn’t need a story tying them to the world because they are creating their own narratives. Probably half of the FFXIV community is the “second life” roleplayers. WF has no player driven narrative. It doesn’t have strong PvP. It is a purely PvE game in a PvE world without roleplaying that must have its narrative created for the player.

 

FFXIV is a theme park with an incredibly diverse set of experiences and an incredibly diverse community 

I never said that Warframe should have pay to skip. I just mentioned that this is something done in mmos and that Warframe is taking after them, and even pointed out that maybe they shouldn't do that since Warframe doesn't have a 100 hour story + four 50-hour-long dlcs for you to go through to reach the newest quests.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

 Which probably wouldn't suck so much if their DLC models were much better.  But that's a different discussion for another time.

 

They are actually reworking seasons after the final shape to be 3 mini expansions each year that you can play at any time.

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

The thing is several mmos have this: despite Warframe not truly being an mmo, it still takes after them on several ways like having in-game trading and class types. 

Mmos have this so they can make you buy the dlc instead of slogging through all the old content (FFXIV ARR comes to mind) to get to it, which is kinda funny tbh because Warframe doesn't have any dlc or any sort of heavy endgame for people to want to get to (other than clearing rooms of 20 enemies at once).

And DE seems to forget the main difference (besides this not being an MMO), that all those other games are linear. So old content in those games is obsolete upon release of a new expansion or big DLC. It is why it works in those games. Here people will be needed to do the old content that they just thought they payed to skip past, since most everything from the old content is still very much useful for one reason or another.

Another reason as to why this is a bad idea. Player confusion when they pay to skip and go from having to fathom 1 system to 5+ in one go, not having a clue which of them will be worth getting into before hitting up the things they payed to skip to. No idea if they need to invest some in the RJ, mech, AW, operator or potential pet etc. And another thing I just now mentioned in the official thread, skipping past Stalker and getting right to Shadow Stalker without knowing the slightest about how sentient immunity works etc.

IMO if DE goes through with this, they'll be selling a player disfavor for cash, since I cannot see any benefits with it. If they want to help the players, streamline the story quest experience so people can focus on just that for free. Like uhm how questing #*!%ing works in most other games.

[-Krism-]

8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And DE seems to forget the main difference (besides this not being an MMO), that all those other games are linear. So old content in those games is obsolete upon release of a new expansion or big DLC. It is why it works in those games. Here people will be needed to do the old content that they just thought they payed to skip past, since most everything from the old content is still very much useful for one reason or another.

Another reason as to why this is a bad idea. Player confusion when they pay to skip and go from having to fathom 1 system to 5+ in one go, not having a clue which of them will be worth getting into before hitting up the things they payed to skip to. No idea if they need to invest some in the RJ, mech, AW, operator or potential pet etc. And another thing I just now mentioned in the official thread, skipping past Stalker and getting right to Shadow Stalker without knowing the slightest about how sentient immunity works etc.

IMO if DE goes through with this, they'll be selling a player disfavor for cash, since I cannot see any benefits with it. If they want to help the players, streamline the story quest experience so people can focus on just that for free. Like uhm how questing #*!%ing works in most other games.

Added some of this

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

Added some of this

By the way, when you've gotten the compilation in a state you feel is good enough, would you mind linking it in the offical thread? Would be great if Reb and others at DE sees it since it is a nice and tidy compilation list that manages to explain most of the drawbacks in a very simple yet compehensible manner.

Maybe you've already linked it and I'm just late to the party. 

[-Krism-]

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

By the way, when you've gotten the compilation in a state you feel is good enough, would you mind linking it in the offical thread?

That's the thing I already did, but as I stated in the message for moderators at the top, replies just get lost in the dozen pages

 

EDIT:

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Would be great if Reb and others at DE sees it since it is a nice and tidy compilation list that manages to explain most of the drawbacks in a very simple yet compehensible manner.

Exactly why I made this, thank you ^^

 

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Maybe you've already linked it and I'm just late to the party. 

Yup, exactly

Edited October 29, 2023 by -Krism-

[Roble_Viejo]

Im 100% in favor of removing Requisites and letting Players play Quests in any order

But making them Pay for it? Good God, this is not the Digital Extremes I knew....

It gets worse when you realize they explicitly used the phrase
"Our Goal is to allow Players to PAY to UNLOCK and COMPLETE Quests"
And even worse still when you read Comments defending this P2W BS

I knew DE would get more and more greedy after the Heirloom Scam

We Destiny now boys!

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

On 2023-10-29 at 6:04 PM, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

If that's the angle the argument is from then I don't see how adding a skip option makes that worse. 

Then you shouldn't have a word in the matter if you don't understand the picture

Not specifically you but in general over everyone

Above reply is more harsh about it