Is it time to change Archon mods to trigger from weapon damage/kills?

[Traumtulpe]

41 minutes ago, crimsonspartan1 said:

Assuming they work for all weapons, Archon Vitality would definitely be more frequently used, because heat is a really good status effect and being able to proc it twice in one go would be very powerful, potentially busted if you use high status weapons like Kuva Nukor.

Archon Continuity would definitely make toxin builds more viable with being able to proc toxin as well. The Cedo and any secondary with Secondary Encumber would become extremely good, potentially even busted, both in terms of damage and utility (free energy generation from electric procs and occasional energy orbs from cold, but i'd assume you'd actually need to kill enemies with cold damage, not merely proc it so people would need to build for cold damage on their weapons, so Archon Flow might not see much use either unless you're intentionally building for cold damage). If they also applied to sentinel weapons, then the Verglas would be extremely broken. Viral + Heat builds already melt high level enemies thanks to it's very high status chance, imagine having the Verglas proc heat at double the rate. 

I'm all for the archon mods being buffed, but i can easily imagine some weapons being potentially game-breaking if they applied to all weapons.

Archon Vitality would be good alright, but the health part is meaningless on most builds, and on all others it's a downgrade over the Umbral set. Does it really make a difference whether your Phantasma procs 1000x Heat or 2000x Heat? Everything not immune (or status capped) is gonna die anyway.

Archon Continuity would do precisely that, make Toxin builds viable. Good.

Archon Stretch can already be procced by the sentinel for 100% uptime, nothing really changes.

Archon Flow would be a small but desirable upgrade over Primed Flow. It currently is straight up worse, so that's a good change.

Archon Intensify would be more commonly usable as well, if say lifesteal from weapons counted. The mod is pretty weak as is, so that's fine.

 

[crimsonspartan1]

21 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Archon Vitality would be good alright, but the health part is meaningless on most builds, and on all others it's a downgrade over the Umbral set. Does it really make a difference whether your Phantasma procs 1000x Heat or 2000x Heat? Everything not immune (or status capped) is gonna die anyway.

Archon Continuity would do precisely that, make Toxin builds viable. Good.

Archon Stretch can already be procced by the sentinel for 100% uptime, nothing really changes.

Archon Flow would be a small but desirable upgrade over Primed Flow. It currently is straight up worse, so that's a good change.

Archon Intensify would be more commonly usable as well, if say lifesteal from weapons counted. The mod is pretty weak as is, so that's fine.

 

Archon Vitality would definitely see more frequent use if the double heat could affect weapons, even if adding health isn't needed on some builds, and to make full use of the Umbral mods you need two or all three of the warframe umbral mods to get maximum effect. I'm aware there's some builds that actually make use of Archon Intensify instead of the Umbral mods, but you need to heal with an ability to activate it, so if you could activate Archon Intensify with healing from a weapon, then that'd make the most extremely good, but it might make Umbral Intensify invalid unless you want to combine it with the other umbral mods for extra survivability (or have all three warframe mods to get +17% more strength and even more survivability, but then you need to take up two additional mod-slots for Umbral Vitality and Fiber where you could just slap on even more strength if you want to maximize strength and ability effectiveness for things like Wisp's motes or any buffing ability).

Archon Continuity would definitely make toxin a lot better and make their builds viable. I just don't know if one, it'd work better than having Viral instead since many weapons can't have both at once aside from specific weapons that can always proc toxin like the Acrid, and two it might invalidate Corrosive on builds unless the weapon already has corrosive on it or you want to use that Melee Exposure arcane. Could also definitely see Primary Blight being more worthwhile as well on primaries since you need to inflict toxin to activate it.

Archon Stretch i can definitely see use for if it could be used on weapons. Electric on sentinel weapons for basically almost infinite energy regen is crazy, and many builds put electric damage on their melee weapons thanks to the Melee Influence arcane being pretty insane with it's whole status spreading effect so there's simply zero reason not to use Archon Stretch.

Archon Flow is a small upgrade to Primed Flow, but needing to get kills specifically with cold damage when most people don't mod for cold might just make it look more like a more expensive Primed Flow. Only exception i can think of is if you're specifically building for cold damage on a primary weapon to make use of Primary Frostbite for the added Crit damage + multishot on cold procs.

[Hexerin]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

There's frames that can utilize those, especially the ones with exalted weapons. Not every mod has to fit every frame

Exalted weapons are weapons, not abilities. They don't trigger the effects of the archon mods. The only way to get weapons to trigger archon mod effects is indirectly by utilizing ability inheritance. The only one I'm aware of offhand is Zephyr's Tornadoes.

42 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Archon Intensify would be more commonly usable as well, if say lifesteal from weapons counted. The mod is pretty weak as is, so that's fine.

The problem with Archon Intensify, is that its conditional is something that just doesn't really happen with anywhere near enough consistency for the mod to be worth it in the modern environment. You have to heal, but nobody takes damage anymore.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Hexerin

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

14 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Exalted weapons are weapons, not abilities. They don't trigger the effects of the archon mods. The only way to get weapons to trigger archon mod effects is indirectly by utilizing ability inheritance. The only one I'm aware of offhand is Zephyr's Tornadoes.

I question your Valkyr talons takes after seeing you say this, they are both weapons and abilities. This is something you can literally test yourself but I'll do it right now with archon continuity and only a toxic Valkyr talon to show that it procs

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

31 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Exalted weapons are weapons, not abilities. They don't trigger the effects of the archon mods.

[Hexerin]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

I question your Valkyr talons takes after seeing you say this, they are both weapons and abilities. This is something you can literally test yourself but I'll do it right now with archon continuity and only a toxic Valkyr talon to show that it procs

44 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Interesting, I wonder when that was fixed. I tested Archon Flow for a Titania build a while back (the intent of course to generate energy orbs for extra Razorwing sustain), and despite killing hundreds of enemies I never got a single energy orb out of it.

Also, your comment about my Valkyr takes makes zero sense.

You don't mod for toxin because it's a useless element. Corpus evaporate to a slight breeze, and they're the only ones that toxin is effective against. Valkyr doesn't mod health, so you'd never use Archon Vitality on her. Energy regen is disabled during a channeled ability, so Archon Stretch is useless on her (plus, she dumps range anyways). The only archon mod she could make use of is Archon Flow, but she also doesn't really need it if you're built well.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Hexerin

[crimsonspartan1]

15 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Interesting, I wonder when that was fixed. I tested Archon Flow for a Titania build a while back (the intent of course to generate energy orbs for extra Razorwing sustain), and despite killing hundreds of enemies I never got a single energy orb out of it.

Also, your comment about my Valkyr takes makes zero sense.

You don't mod for toxin because it's a useless element. Corpus evaporate to a slight breeze, and they're the only ones that toxin is effective against. Valkyr doesn't mod health, so you'd never use Archon Vitality on her. Energy regen is disabled during a channeled ability, so Archon Stretch is useless on her (plus, she dumps range anyways). The only archon mod she could make use of is Archon Flow, but she also doesn't really need it if you're built well.

It's up to the players to decide what they wanna mod for. I have Archon Vitality on one of my Valkyr builds and all of my Baruuk builds for the double heat on exalted, even on an excal umbra build despite the whole "three umbral mods thing" and Exalted Blade with Chromatic blade augment and Desert Wind with reactive storm are very interesting since you can hit over 100% status chance on them and if you're lucky you can inflict double heat procs per attack, and combined with Archon Vitality and you can get 4 heat procs at once .I could definitely see Archon Continuity being a funny one for exalted weapons as well. 

Just because it's not optimal or "meta" doesn't mean people won't use it. Sometimes people will try things out and make some silly builds that are both fun and viable instead of trying to make the most op builds possible

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

18 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Interesting, I wonder when that was fixed. I tested Archon Flow for a Titania build a while back (the intent of course to generate energy orbs for extra Razorwing sustain), and despite killing hundreds of enemies I never got a single energy orb out of it.

Also, your comment about my Valkyr takes makes zero sense.

You don't mod for toxin because it's a useless element. Corpus evaporate to a slight breeze, and they're the only ones that toxin is effective against. Valkyr doesn't mod health, so you'd never use Archon Vitality on her. Energy regen is disabled during a channeled ability, so Archon Stretch is useless on her (plus, she dumps range anyways). The only archon mod she could make use of is Archon Flow, but she also doesn't really need it if you're built well.

Don't sweat about the Valkyr talon takes comment it was more of a "I thought you were an expert but you didn't know this" kind of logic, didn't mean it as an insult.

As for Archon flow it's a difficult one to visualize that's why I picked continuity to demonstrate, it probably did proc for your titania but since it's just an energy orb drop it's hard to tell if that was natural or the mod

[Hexerin]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Don't sweat about the Valkyr talon takes comment it was more of a "I thought you were an expert but you didn't know this" kind of logic, didn't mean it as an insult.

As for Archon flow it's a difficult one to visualize that's why I picked continuity to demonstrate, it probably did proc for your titania but since it's just an energy orb drop it's hard to tell if that was natural or the mod

Archon Flow has a cooldown, which is shown as a debuff in your buff effects whenever it triggers (like Arcane Energize, etc).

I can confirm on my end as well that archon mods are working on both Valkyr and Titania now, I tested Archon Flow and Archon Continuity on both frames before I responded to you above. That Titania build is no longer relevant of course (viral/heat with Carnis for slash weighting is the way to go on her), but I'm definitely going to adjust my Valkyr build to make use of corrosive/cold with Archon Flow.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Hexerin

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, crimsonspartan1 said:

if you could activate Archon Intensify with healing from a weapon, then that'd make the most extremely good, but it might make Umbral Intensify invalid [...] Archon Stretch i can definitely see use for if it could be used on weapons. Electric on sentinel weapons for basically almost infinite energy regen is crazy

No it wouldn't, since you'll get *less* health/armor/strength than you'd get from a full Umbral set, *and* frames that don't use the set usually can't heal (because they don't take health damage).

You can use Archon Stretch and have your sentinel trigger it right now. So nothing would change.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[SneakyErvin]

No need to change something just because it currently fills a niche. They could however make them consistant, so Toxin Lash for instance can proc Archon Cont, since it adds a standalone toxin damage instance and the skill visual also implies it is part of Saryn and not the weapon iirc. And Flow could likely change to be kills with cold damage skills or targets killed while frozen by skills.

Right now though there are a decent amount of frames that can make use of them if people are willing to mod for it. Any exalted frame can use them and then there are frames like Citrine aswell that actually can kill with cold and stack corrosive through toxin.

Not everything needs to be usable by everyone.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

No need to change something just because it currently fills a niche. They could however make them consistant, so Toxin Lash for instance can proc Archon Cont, since it adds a standalone toxin damage instance and the skill visual also implies it is part of Saryn and not the weapon iirc. And Flow could likely change to be kills with cold damage skills or targets killed while frozen by skills.

Right now though there are a decent amount of frames that can make use of them if people are willing to mod for it. Any exalted frame can use them and then there are frames like Citrine aswell that actually can kill with cold and stack corrosive through toxin.

Not everything needs to be usable by everyone.

Filling a niche is something different than being usable via only small part of gear. Amalgam mod that used to (aka past tense) shorten the rolls might be niche. However you could use it on probably all frames.

[taiiat]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They could however make them consistant

so Toxin Lash for instance can proc Archon Cont, since it adds a standalone toxin damage instance and the skill visual also implies it is part of Saryn and not the weapon iirc.

yes, may as well be consistent.

Toxic Lash does count as an Ability Kill by the game, so perhaps indeed. not that it's actually useful for Saryn, but that's a different matter from that yes it may as well work regardless of if Saryn actually gets any realistic benefit out of it.

3 hours ago, quxier said:

Filling a niche is something different than being usable via only small part of gear. Amalgam mod that used to (aka past tense) shorten the rolls might be niche. However you could use it on probably all frames.

Amalgam Diffusion is an entirely different scenario? having the effect is objectively superior under all circumstances, but you end up having to make that decision against Galvanized Diffusion instead, in order to use it.

but it's a Parkour boost, it has no specificity to it.

[Hexerin]

43 minutes ago, Qriist said:

That's definitely not true:

  Reveal hidden contents

Mesa with no upgrades beyond Archon Continuity + energy stuff

Regulators with pure toxin damage:

One enemy with a toxin proc and a corrosive proc:

You can also see the game treating exalted weapons as abilities in Arbitrations, too: Mesa and Titania and everyone else with an exalted are incapable of killing the arbitration drones with their frame weapons.

By the way, it's generally good etiquette to actually read a conversation in full before butting in. Helps to avoid making a fool of yourself by posting redundant and outdated talking points. Especially when that conversation only consists of three posts, all directly one after another.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Hexerin

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Qriist said:

I'm not sure if Toxic Lash counts as ability damage for affinity purposes, but it counts as weapon damage everywhere else.

Toxic Lash does not proc Archon Continuity:

that was my point, the game has always considered Toxic Lash as an Ability Kill (yes, will steal Kills from your Weapon and associate them to your Warframe) - and yet, Archon Continuity doesn't work.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

Well, no. The whole point of them is that they work on the Warframe only. To incentivize more strange combos on abilities that can support the interaction.

The biggest issues are just that Archon Flow and Archon Continuity are the least useful because barely any abilities deal a significant amount of Cold damage, and most Toxin ability options are not working or unnecessary.

I would just suggest making Archon Flow apply on enemies killed while affected by a Cold proc, and have Archon Continuity just increase damage they take from Toxin Procs or have a chance to double Toxin Procs on cast.

I don't see the point of giving the other Archon Mods more power when they work just fine currently.

[taiiat]

9 minutes ago, Qriist said:

There is no place that I can find where the game regards Toxic Lash as ability damage.

Even Arbitration drones, infamously immune to abilities, take damage from Toxic Lash.

i don't know how you jumped over to that - i said the game regards as that Damage as an Ability Kill.
yes, Toxic Lash is rather special that the game regards it as an Ability, but since it is fired from a Weapon it functions like it is not. game is weird.

[Traumtulpe]

6 hours ago, Qriist said:

Challenge met.

That's cute and all, but I'm not sure you getting *1* Corrosive proc every now and then, when you need 14 to full strip, is really of any relevance at all? Same goes for killing level 1 enemies with Cold...

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

Pretty much all of the Archon mods have use-case. It's up to you and your creativity to find what those use-cases are.

That said, some of them could definitely stand to get a minor buff or tweak, most notably Archon Flow. Archon Continuity is incredibly strong as it stands and doesn't need any changes.

[Hexerin]

24 minutes ago, Qriist said:

Seriously, don't discount the gem. 

It's always really amused me that nobody runs Citrine. She's gamebreakingly overtuned, it's actually insane.

[Traumtulpe]

15 minutes ago, Qriist said:

Seriously, don't discount the gem.

That's very interesting, and actually quite impressive it a way. But I really don't think you're going to get any energy orbs from Archon Flow out of that ability still. Even if you're letting your sentinel kill an enemy, it's gonna die to the Heat procs, not to the crystals tiny Cold damage.

As for the Corrosive procs, apparently the crystal can trigger once every 0.4 seconds at most, per ally. So even in the best case scenario, you'd need to fire at an enemy for >5.2 seconds continuously to get the 14 Corrosive procs needed for a full armor strip. In a Steel Path survival you need about 2 kills per second to break even with the life support, so you'd need to kill more than 10x as fast.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, quxier said:

Filling a niche is something different than being usable via only small part of gear. Amalgam mod that used to (aka past tense) shorten the rolls might be niche. However you could use it on probably all frames.

Two different types of niche in the context. Filling a niche and being a niche arent really the same thing. In the case of these Archon mods, they are niche mods since they fill a spot in niche builds i.e very specific builds not really mainstream and connected to a select few frames. Amalgam Diffusion isnt a niche nor does it fill the needs of a niche group of builds. Parkour and building for it is popular and quite widespread, so Amalgam Diffusion is really just another regular mod option.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

20 hours ago, quxier said:

Filling a niche is something different than being usable via only small part of gear. Amalgam mod that used to (aka past tense) shorten the rolls might be niche. However you could use it on probably all frames.

Two different types of niche in the context. Filling a niche and being a niche arent really the same thing. In the case of these Archon mods, they are niche mods since they fill a spot in niche builds i.e very specific builds not really mainstream and connected to a select few frames. Amalgam Diffusion isnt a niche nor does it fill the needs of a niche group of builds. Parkour and building for it is popular and quite widespread, so Amalgam Diffusion is really just another regular mod option.

Ok, at this point we are arguing over terms. I honestly don't want to.

My point that I disagree with you is this:

21 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not everything needs to be usable by everyone.

Items (mods, arcanes etc) should be usable "by everyone". It doesn't have to work on "100% power" but you still have to see some benefits. What's the point of building items that are very limited? I get things like Augment mods that change abilities (e.g. Protea that gets armor strip with 2+4) or Augments that works on specific weapon. We end up with game that has only small number of combinations because of those limitations. Game would be much richer without those limitations.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

11 hours ago, Qriist said:

 

 

11 hours ago, Qriist said:

Seriously, don't discount the gem. 

What's your build there, fellow gem enjoyer? Nourish on Helminth, but what shards and mods do you have on her?

Edited December 27, 2023 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[Agall]

On 2023-12-26 at 2:38 AM, Traumtulpe said:

Look, nobody is using these:

There *is no* warframe that kills with Cold abilities. There *is no* warframe that can use Corrosive procs on Toxin abilities. Can we all just agree that these mods would be great if they worked with weapon damage, and get DE to fix them? Please?

Excalibur?