"AOE meta got nerfed, oh no" - no, it's still around... sadly

[Xzorn]

It's a little funny to see that video with the Nullifer not one-shotting them.
Nullifers were literally designed to hinder that type of farming tactic. What a massive nuisance and degradation of gameplay for nothing.

[Monolake]

Its pretty funny how DE finally acknowledged this problem but did a half-arsed half-measure and didnt bother fixing anything.

But it actually removed all those braindead brama/zaar/ogris spammers since they dont know you can use ammo mutation and carrier or just switch to tonkor/envoy, so it kinda had the result on the game. These days I see incarnon torids in every game and never see a single brama anymore lol

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

44 minutes ago, Monolake said:

Its pretty funny how DE finally acknowledged this problem but did a half-arsed half-measure and didnt bother fixing anything.

But it actually removed all those braindead brama/zaar/ogris spammers since they dont know you can use ammo mutation and carrier or just switch to tonkor/envoy, so it kinda had the result on the game. These days I see incarnon torids in every game and never see a single brama anymore lol

Got my hands on Incarnon Torid this week too... My god, it's disgusting. Disgustingly OP. It lacks the one thing that holds other incarnons back - the charge up mechanic on *headshots alone*, skyrocketing this one to the very top of any and all Incarnons. Right next to Angstrem, as it's literally the same - charge on body shots, not headshots. Exactly because of that, these two shine above all others.

Corrosive+Rad+Heat+HunterMunitions for the full rainbow of utility without having to switch around for every single enemy type... Together with 2 green archon shards for them 14 corrosive stacks for full armor-strip in a literal blink of an eye with that status chance... Hmm. Just needs Viral from Nourish on top and it's just perfect. Hmm, gonna go put 2 greens into my Nourish Wisp now to do exactly that... :P 

Edited January 18 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[GPrime96]

On 1/10/2024 at 2:23 PM, stormy505 said:

I rarely ever see Bramma anymore. Like, why use the Bramma when the Tenet Arca Plasmore exists.

The ammo changes did a number on the Zarr and Bramma, still very good weapons but not nearly as everpresent as they were before. Cause they actually require people to run ammo buffing mechanics to use them in none camp scenarios.

The main issue was after introducing the Zarr and Bramma, nerfing them and fixing the aoe meta for a tiny bit of time, they went and introduced more AOE weapons largely unaffected by the aoe nerfs.

Especially with the scalability Tenet Plasmor have over Bramma.

[GPrime96]

On 1/10/2024 at 1:36 PM, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Running pub relic runs(Normal and SP both) makes me wonder, why do I even bother trying to use those actually good Incarnon weapons that I've farmed. Can't charge it even with a single precision headshot (let alone get a single stack of that headshot-based arcane), when all enemies are instantly dead split second after they spawn out of a fissure - all thanks to Tenet Arca Plasmor, Tenet Envoy, Sporelacer kitguns, Kuva Zarr/Bramma and the rest of the "supposedly nerfed" AOE weapons that people don't even have to aim at all. Same applies to literally any other single-target weapon - even non-incarnon, even if a very good one... Too bad.

I understand wanting to "optimize gameplay", especially relic runs. I really do. And yeah, AOE weapons do exactly that - no need to aim, just spray'n'pray. EZ braindead gameplay. I get it. But... AOE meta still around, still making single-target weapons irrelevant, incarnon or not.

Can't say how to make single-target stuff more relevant without nerfing AOE, but at least something can be done to Incarnons - just make them ALL charge up on body hits, like Angrstrum/Torid do. Otherwise it's pointless to even bother trying to get to the boosted incarnon forms - which are (usually, but not always) good. But you can't use em in those somewhat shorter relic run missions, because by the time you'd be able to use them(if at all!!!) - everyone's already dead, mission complete and you need to head to extract. The only time they are good are solo SP runs. Where you have all the time in the world and all the enemies left to you. Not being obliterated by AOE that people don't have to aim.

Discuss.

Honestly, besides Tenet Plasmor, Torid Incarnon is better than other AoE Weapons you posted and it’s not even close. Not only it got AoE Explosive shots, it also got a Laser Beam that does pretty good damage, chains, and last for a nice amount. Although that just reinforces the AoE meta in a certain way more than other normal AoE Weapons. 

[PR1D3]

Honestly these are long running problems that addressing AOE alone will not be enough. You will have to contend with the fact that large swaths of the player base not only want this clown fiesta, they want it to be expanded/exacerbated. But with AOE weapons, well, there's a reason why in other games there are extreme limitations when players are given high damage explosives. They're normally power weapons with low ammo and SELF DAMAGE. Otherwise, would you really use anything other than them? Would there be a reason to use the BR or DMR in Halo if you just could use the rockets, have essentially near infinite ammo and you could never kill yourself with them? If we're talking about the average player who will immediately adopt the meta to trivialize the game as much as possible, what would they use? Modern Warframe is your answer. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

The nature and purpose of nerfs can be multiple and overlap. Depends on other variables, Nerfs don't necessarily exist to completely eliminate a particular play style or meta, and thats before we even distinguish AOE weapons, from AOE meta. Then distinguishing between nerfing either respectively. Sometimes a nerf is just so one weapon may not be as ubiquitous anymore. There is a large difference between 1 weapon out of a pool of 200, being used by say 80% of a play base, especially if the idea or goal, is that people value and desire more weapons generally. Which may be different in a game, with strict linear progression and an ending. Nerfing and buffing weapons, so that original weapon in the example, is say used by 30%... it could still in theory be the most popular gun, and the one many people see with regularity, but you could say the goal of the nerf/buffs, were successful. My example, is just that, an example, in the abstract. 

Won't be accurate, to actual statistics, but Kuva Nukor did cross my mind, and its still a really popular gun, statistically speaking, but I think DE will probably be happy with the nerfs and buffs and balancing they have done with Secondaries in more recent times, in comparison to say 2020 Kuva Nukor usage. This year it may even finally be overtaken, but my main point is that its stats look very very different comparatively. 

For some people, the AOE nerfs were overzealous, and for some, they didn't go far enough, but... there are also a whole lot of people, with more nuanced and specific takes, as far as what they might agree with or disagree with, accept, reject, inserting and wrapping the issues with their preferences and perspectives. Like... AOE isn't an established scientific term. You can find decent consensus, especially as far as certain games, but many different people, do actually have slightly different interpretations of what AOE is exactly. Their definitions may also overlap, but may contain nuance. A few years back, I went down a Google/Wiki hole trying to see the origins and applications of the term in video game (I'm interested in linguistics and etymology). I have forgotten a lot of my knowledge, but I vaguely remember its use in video games, often being linked to more magical fantasy systems. Obviously language and terms grow and expand, but just for myself personally, and I know a few others? Well, its more nuanced. 

Like, to myself, Kuva Nukor could be considered an AOE weapon, but I would initially describe it more as a chaining beam weapon. Terms aren't exclusive. Terms also don't mean the exact same thing though. For example, the Incarnon Atomos regular form, is also a chaining beam weapon. Yes. Can it be considered an AOE? Sure. Its also got an AOE launcher type firing style in its Incarnon form. So its it an AOE that transform into an AOE? Well yeah sorta, depending on some peoples definitions... hence either more context can offer better descriptions to offer clarity, or you can use different terms, even if only for clarity. Its important for some, because the Kuva Zarr is very different to a weapon like the Tenet Arca Plasma, or the Cedo. Just like the Torid Incarnon can be very different to the ordinary Torid, to the Synapse. 

A weapons punch through, beam mechanics, how many beams, projectile width... Like the Nataruk has a wide projectile, its great, and why its one of the meta bows, but many people find it more savoury than the Bramma, especially as a co-op weapon, as far as avoiding flash banging you, killing weaker enemies too fast etc. 

We also have two different colliding issues here as well. Burston Prime against weak enemies, that can be killed per one bullet of the Burston, is going to make a team environment where someone is using a Daikyu, potentially have nothing to do. Even a single target weapon, if automatic, that has a high fire rate, that is against a weak enemy, used by someone with no discretion, let alone 3 other players, will make someone with a slow firing, bow or sniper, feel irrelevant. So there is a scale and magnitude  to such things. Peoples play styles and preferences can clash. Personally? I like certain weapons, like the Daikyu, but I will go solo to really enjoy the weapon. I have used it to great effect in group settings, but even that required particular circumstances. I hard carried a Steel Path Circuit run with it once, my build let me one shot many tough enemies, other players builds were struggling with, and I had certain Decrees that really benefitted it. My point though, is I won't be taking the Daikyu for when I go to farm Gauss Prime, in Earth Capture missions, in PUBs. Like... yeah, I probably won't kill many enemies at all. 

The two issues can overlap, but they are also separate with their own issues, problems and thus potential solutions. With all that said, I do think the nerfs were therefore successful in what their intent was (though criticism is also valid regardless). Though we may have to wait to see the 2023 usage stats, and some of this also may depend on a persons terminology and play style preferences. Personally I find it really odd to consider Tenet Arca Plasma and Kuva Zarr that similar... It just has punch through and a wide hitbox projectile, and the Tenet version bounces a lot. Potentially frustrating if someone is using it to great effect? Sure, but Nataruk is really similar, just without the bouncing. When I group with people, using either the Tenet Arca or Nataruk, I can usually enjoy the situation more than when the AOE meta was in its peak, with Kuva Zarrs and Kuva Brammas (not that it bothered me significantly either, since I often play solo a lot anyway, and often when I did PUG, it was for Relics, where I don't have hard expectations for other players behaviour, other than just a bare minimum sort of respect/civility. Epitaph for example, also has an AOE component, just thats more of a Primer. Not all AOE is the same. 

[SneakyErvin]

Best AoE weapon atm is Dual Ichor imo, nothing else will reach as far or kill on its own like Ichor does. Then it has both great combos and strong heavy attacks to deal with single heavy targets if needed.

The only downside is that the cloud doesnt change color based on your energy choice on the weapon. I'd like orange clouds so it would look like I was setting the world on fire.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

13 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Best AoE weapon atm is Dual Ichor imo, nothing else will reach as far or kill on its own like Ichor does. Then it has both great combos and strong heavy attacks to deal with single heavy targets if needed.

The only downside is that the cloud doesnt change color based on your energy choice on the weapon. I'd like orange clouds so it would look like I was setting the world on fire.

 

Damn, its the last Incarnon I have to build. I just need a few more Pathos Clamps. It sounds really interesting and fun, but the downside of the lack of colour choices of the clouds, is a bit disappointed. Ah well, it still sounds like it will be cool and beastly. 

[SneakyErvin]

22 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

Damn, its the last Incarnon I have to build. I just need a few more Pathos Clamps. It sounds really interesting and fun, but the downside of the lack of colour choices of the clouds, is a bit disappointed. Ah well, it still sounds like it will be cool and beastly. 

Yeah it's just crazy. With Melee Influence you can practically be at one point of a map and 50 meters in the other direction Dual Ichor is wrecking carnage on its own. For instance sometimes I go from one area of a map to a part I havent physically been to yet and it is filled with loot and life support since the clouds just managed to wander that way due to Melee Influence. And since the cloud ticks count as melee damage you can practically make your companion immortal, since it will always have 2200 overguard through primed pack leader.

[Bratty_Child]

Its amazing how people fuss about others play, and how it will keep going.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 18.1.2024 um 19:58 schrieb PR1D3:

Honestly these are long running problems that addressing AOE alone will not be enough. You will have to contend with the fact that large swaths of the player base not only want this clown fiesta, they want it to be expanded/exacerbated. But with AOE weapons, well, there's a reason why in other games there are extreme limitations when players are given high damage explosives. They're normally power weapons with low ammo and SELF DAMAGE. Otherwise, would you really use anything other than them? Would there be a reason to use the BR or DMR in Halo if you just could use the rockets, have essentially near infinite ammo and you could never kill yourself with them? If we're talking about the average player who will immediately adopt the meta to trivialize the game as much as possible, what would they use? Modern Warframe is your answer. 

not enough??? pls be serious here,,,,,,,, pls plspslslsl

because you can jsut hold mele button and get this 600k crits non stop-.................

why the hell do u even need trash aoe weapon if you get something like this without ammo penalities..........

COME ONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.................................... !.......

[HeavyFarms]

On 2024-01-10 at 1:12 PM, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Opening relics solo is not a good strat for relic farming, tbh.

You can run capture missions just fine by yourself. 

No matter how badly you nerf your teammates around you, your problem will never be solved. You can nerf AOE. Great, people show up with the next best single target gun and blaze everything down before you shoot it. Or they use warframe abilities, or they go melee and slide attack everything to death. 

You are playing a game based on growing your character and warframe over time. People are always going to be stronger than you, and smash through lower end content cause they just want a new toy to play with. So I really don't understand why you are complaining. 

I played the game back when Soma Prime was arguably the best gun in the game. People ran stuff like Rhino or Mirage and just gunned stuff down. 

On 2024-01-10 at 1:12 PM, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Can't melee stuff if everything is already dead from AOElol :D

Melee moves faster as you can slide melee and launch yourself forward. 

People who talk about melee are older players who are talking about a time where aoe didnt exist outside warframe abilities. People used melee and people like yourself complained about it too. 

[HeavyFarms]

On 2024-01-18 at 11:58 AM, PR1D3 said:

Honestly these are long running problems that addressing AOE alone will not be enough. 

I wish people like you actually thought about your opinion. 

Your feel but you dont actually think. The average warframe player kills more enemies than most other games. I've killed literally millions of enemies. The best comparison to warframe are games like diablo. 

There's a reason why corpse explosion, ice sorcerer and the like are popular in diablo. Its to quickly and easily kill hordes of enemies and move on. Its one of the most endamge sought out builds to get, and people spend so much time building their characters to get to that point. You could build single target. Its perfectly viable way to play. But the game is popular because they have options for the different ways people want to play.

Your battle with AOE is endless and not fixable. #1 cause you nerf it, and people will find something else to replace it. You will then complain about whatever replaces it. #2 People enjoy variety, and getting stronger. 

I miss when the tonkor was fun. (a grenade launcher that you could rocket jump with) People like you ruined that gun. Want more? the synoid simulor, the bramma and the zarr. 

At the end of the day, you are removing far more enjoyment from the game than actually contributing cause your problem is never actually solved. You just complain about the next strongest item for being good in a game about power progression. 

Really miss just rocket jumping around on my tonkor. It was fun. I'd like to use my bramma too. But there's no point cause the weapons were nerfed too hard to really be useable. 

On 2024-01-18 at 11:58 AM, PR1D3 said:

They're normally power weapons with low ammo and SELF DAMAGE.

Warframe used to have self damage. Yup. It didnt change anything. People just fired the weapons so it didn't kill them. You could bring back self damage and it wouldnt change anything. 

On 2024-01-18 at 11:58 AM, PR1D3 said:

Otherwise, would you really use anything other than them? 

Yup. 

When I fight eidolons, I like to take out my beloved Vectis Prime, build up a crazy damage multiplier and obliterate it one piece at a time. Sometimes I bring status weapons to stack procs till the enemy melts. Sometimes I go valkyr with eternal war and just melee spam till I'm doing 12x damage on hit and everything around me dies. 

AOE weapons are for mob clearing. When it comes to other content, there's many reasons people would use other things. 

[PR1D3]

5 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

I wish people like you actually thought about your opinion. 

Your feel but you dont actually think. The average warframe player kills more enemies than most other games. I've killed literally millions of enemies. The best comparison to warframe are games like diablo. 

Oh that's #*!%ing rich. I'm not thinking about this. Surrounded by people who say that none of this is a problem, despite how the devs have lamented multiple times on streams on how its difficult to actually design around the insane damage output disparities of the players, and people who think the solution is to make everything AOE, and I say this is a multifaceted problem that extends well beyond AOE mechanics but I'm not thinking about it.

If your argument is that the enemy density necessitates the AOE, then the enemy density needs to and can be tweaked. It's not set in stone, WF didn't start out as a horde shooter. I would also say that the need for AOE to deal with density has been a self-fulfilling problem that came about from DE listening too much to the player base. Every year on the survey there's always the density question and without fail, large amounts of people keep saying pump it up not to mention the forum posts throughout that year. Let's not pretend that things in WF were designed in a sensible, solid way. Like I said, a lot of this are long standing problems with the balance and design of the game. Things needed to be reigned in but DE chose to do it in an inconsistent way it to not anger the segments of the player base in an attempt to, in a way, have their cake and eat it too. 

 

5 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

Warframe used to have self damage. Yup. It didnt change anything. People just fired the weapons so it didn't kill them. You could bring back self damage and it wouldnt change anything. 

Yes and no. Once again:

On 2024-01-18 at 12:58 PM, PR1D3 said:

Honestly these are long running problems that addressing AOE alone will not be enough. 

Cause this would require actual balancing of the game where certain items and content are going to need retooling if not outright nerfs. And large parts of the player base refuses to have that conversation without sperging out and also saying some variation of "YOU NEED TO RESPECT MY INVESTMENTS".  Cause you're right in that people would just try to find something else to abuse, but you would see a drop in the usage of those weapons if it wasn't a freebie. That's why they use them. Ability AOE abuse meta used to be thing when certain WF abilities were just as risk free, insta wins. "Press 4 to Win" was a meme for a reason. That doesn't mean you just give up and allow goofy, broken items to exist, you reign them in and fix them.

6 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

Yup. 

When I fight eidolons, I like to take out my beloved Vectis Prime, build up a crazy damage multiplier and obliterate it one piece at a time. Sometimes I bring status weapons to stack procs till the enemy melts. Sometimes I go valkyr with eternal war and just melee spam till I'm doing 12x damage on hit and everything around me dies. 

AOE weapons are for mob clearing. When it comes to other content, there's many reasons people would use other things. 

Good for you, but and? It's fine and and dandy that you do this, but it doesn't negate the issue/point at hand. The average behavior and choices of the player base as a whole do according to the usage data is that they will abuse the AOE weapons in nearly all of the content cause it's the path of least resistance. But then go complain on the surveys and forums on how single target weapons are falling behind, enemy density isn't enough, there's nothing to do, there's no challenge, etc. And you propose something to do something about it and people freak th #*!% out unless it's something to further exacerbate the Power Creep.

Honestly, it is what it is. 

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

If you want a slower pace, play solo.

If you want to crack relics at your pace, play solo.

If you have issues keeping up and it makes you feel bad, play solo.

If you want to do 100% of the damage and 100% of the killed in ESO, play solo.

Instead of asking DE and the entire Warframe community to cater to your desired gameplay, play solo.

Demanding that DE continually nerf the AOEs ruining your enjoyment (be they primaries, secondaries, melees or frames) is just going to make many others miserable while leaving your complaining unresolved, as people will simply use the next best thing and you'll still have missions where you contribute 1 or 2 kills at most, prompting you to come back to the forums and make another thread demanding DE nerf whatever the new flavor of the month is.

Easy solution to all your problems is right there: Play solo.

[Monolake]

2 hours ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

If you want a slower pace, play solo.

If you want to crack relics at your pace, play solo.

If you have issues keeping up and it makes you feel bad, play solo.

If you want to do 100% of the damage and 100% of the killed in ESO, play solo.

Instead of asking DE and the entire Warframe community to cater to your desired gameplay, play solo.

Demanding that DE continually nerf the AOEs ruining your enjoyment (be they primaries, secondaries, melees or frames) is just going to make many others miserable while leaving your complaining unresolved, as people will simply use the next best thing and you'll still have missions where you contribute 1 or 2 kills at most, prompting you to come back to the forums and make another thread demanding DE nerf whatever the new flavor of the month is.

Easy solution to all your problems is right there: Play solo.

What you are saying essentially is that one player can ruin the game for everyone else and force everyone to play solo. In COOP game. Get it now? It kills coop, as you are proclaiming yourself.

Its bad design. And Im a shameless aoe spammer myself, but I know there is no gameplay left when someone like me runs ahead and wipes out the map without any aiming even. And since DE filtered out all the brainless brama/zaarr spammers  the game only became better with more variety.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

29 minutes ago, Monolake said:

What you are saying essentially is that one player can ruin the game for everyone else and force everyone to play solo. In COOP game. Get it now? It kills coop, as you are proclaiming yourself.

Its bad design. And Im a shameless aoe spammer myself, but I know there is no gameplay left when someone like me runs ahead and wipes out the map without any aiming even. And since DE filtered out all the brainless brama/zaarr spammers  the game only became better with more variety.

This isn't Twitter, so don't put words in my mouth.

I don't have any problems keeping up with AOE nukes, be they frames or weapons, and it doesn't bother me if someone is blazing through a fissure ahead of me. I'm just there to crack relics, and non-endless  fissures aren't enough of a challenge anyway to get all riled up over not doing enough. If you're having trouble contributing to a mission and it makes you feel bad, but you want to keep playing in public matchmaking, that's a problem only you can and should solve. Update your weapons, frames, and builds, or improve your parkour skills to get ahead of the pack if it really bugs you that much.

The problem is your expectations, not how other people play. No one likes the loud kid on the playground who wants to make everyone play by their rules, so you can either accept that other people like to have fun, and their fun is different from yours, or you can play solo.

No one is forcing you to do anything, aside from forcing you to accept that you can't say "You have to play MY WAY!" in public matchmaking.

As far as AOEs and your own shameless spamming, that's the nature of the game. Kuva Bramma and Zarr were annoying, and I'm glad they got nerfed and aren't used as much (even though they were simply replaced with other forms of AOE), but I ended up improving my parkour skills to get ahead of them during the AOE meta, and turned it into another game. Race the Bramma!

If it really worries you to leave no gameplay behind you after wrecking a relic exterminate, you can do what I do: play Steel Path fissures. Everyone there is on the same page by that point, so you can let lower MR players work their way through normal fissures while you speednuke Steel Path.

At the end of the day, people like and enjoy using AOE weapons and frames, as seen in their usage rates. If you want to ruin the fun of everyone using those weapons, then you'd probably be better off playing solo anyway.

Edited January 25 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[HeavyFarms]

On 2024-01-24 at 3:20 PM, PR1D3 said:

Oh that's #*!%ing rich. I'm not thinking about this.

Yeah. That's the problem. You don't think at all. An entire team can kill literally thousands of enemies in 20 minutes. And you are complaining that there's not enough for you to kill. 

Have you tried any content above level 5? There's eximus, nullifiers and more. Out on deimos there's even enemies that seem uneffected completely by warframe powers. Yet you are complaying about low level noob star chart missions that are quickly outgeared by anyone with more than a week's playtime in game. 

On 2024-01-24 at 3:20 PM, PR1D3 said:

how its difficult to actually design around the insane damage output disparities of the players,

Its really easy actually. 

See if we take any other MMO. Let's say Final Fantasy 14. A level 90 character is going to smoke any content under them. You can solo level 50, 60, 70 and even level 80 fights all by yourself. 

How do you design around the insande damage disparities? You make content that weaker players needs to earn to enter. (Steel Path) 
You are effectively complaining that a higher level character is smoking through low level content. That's the entire point of the game. When you level up in an MMO, or most any game for that matter, its so you get stronger and can handle more difficult content. 

So until they add match making so you only get newbies on your squad, your options are to play public and be at risk of a stronger player joining, or just playing solo. 
People don't enjoy being artificially weakened. Destiny and Destiny 2 do this and its just not fun. 

On 2024-01-24 at 3:20 PM, PR1D3 said:

 I say this is a multifaceted problem that extends well beyond AOE mechanics but I'm not thinking about it.

Nope. Cause if you actually thought about it, you'd realize that there's multiple enemy types that resist AOE. Enemies that scale into having insane damage reduction that are just normal enemies in the game. 90% damage reduction btw. Then there are enemies that just are immune to certain aoe effects all together until conditions are met. 

Now, Diablo 2 tried a few different ways to fix your exact complaints. Its an old game. It was built with the same idea of power and gear progression as warframe. And Diablo's only solution? 

How did a game that old fix your complaint? They made enemies completely immune to different damages, so certain players COULDNT DO ANYTHING to that enemy. Oh you a frost sorcerer? That's too bad. An enemy is completely immune to you. 

The way to fix your issue exists in warframe. Its called "Higher level content". There is literally content designed where AOE is useless. They were useless in the warframe raids, and there's a place for AOE in this game, and a place for single target weapons. 

On 2024-01-24 at 3:20 PM, PR1D3 said:

WF didn't start out as a horde shooter.

It very much did. One of the oldest things people would do? Grab a T4 survival key and fight hordes of enemies while you get Prime rewards for every 5 minutes you stay. 

It absolutely was a horde shooter, and it still is one now. Sorry to say bud, but you are the vocal minority. The other vast majority of the game just plays the game and has fun. 

On 2024-01-24 at 3:20 PM, PR1D3 said:

Let's not pretend that things in WF were designed in a sensible, solid way.

Warframe is popular for every reason you hate it. The reason it has 80,000 players on steam? Cause its designed in a sensible solid way. 
 

On 2024-01-24 at 3:20 PM, PR1D3 said:

Yes and no. Once again:

Cause this would require actual balancing of the game where certain items and content are going to need retooling if not outright nerfs. And large parts of the player base refuses to have that conversation without sperging out and also saying some variation of "YOU NEED TO RESPECT MY INVESTMENTS". 

Yeah. How well did that go when they did that for Diablo 4? 
"Blizzard Admits It Messed Up With Diablo 4’s Disastrous Nerf Patch, Announces Upcoming Sweeping Changes"

I'll give you a little hint man. When another game tried the exact same nonsense you want, and it failed terribly? Let's have you practice thinking. 
Think why Diablo 4 nerfing all the popular builds would be a bad idea. Now, when you have finished thinking, understand ITS THE SAME REASON why nerfing it would be terrible in warframe. 

Again, you are the equivalent of a level 50 player, complaining a level 90 player is easily destroying your content. 

On 2024-01-24 at 3:20 PM, PR1D3 said:

Cause you're right in that people would just try to find something else to abuse, but you would see a drop in the usage of those weapons if it wasn't a freebie. That's why they use them. Ability AOE abuse meta used to be thing when certain WF abilities were just as risk free, insta wins. "Press 4 to Win" was a meme for a reason. That doesn't mean you just give up and allow goofy, broken items to exist, you reign them in and fix them.

Press 4 to win only worked in low level content. Its why people brough excalibur, and trinity to draco ceres, where excal could actually kill the enemies :) 

See, unfortunately for you. You dont know when to stop nerfs. You continuously nerf everything, until the game isn't fun anymore. You continue nerfing everything that's popular, ruining a PvE game instead of letting people enjoy the game and giving new and harder challenges to players with the best gear. 

The solution to your problem? Play solo so higher levels don't ruin your content, or play the content AOE is useless. 
 

[Dunkelheit]

Am 11.1.2024 um 19:43 schrieb trst:

And AOE gives players the choice to remove all other choices from the three other players in the squad. Every "suggestion" you've provided also works for those utilizing AOE which ruins any point you've been trying to make here.

No, the actual choices are: "play the meta and get forcibly carried anyways if someone is being more meta than you", "play solo if you want to use anything else", or "hope you only get players who're looking to get carried/putting in less effort then you are".

And as I pointed out earlier this issue extends beyond regular AOE weapons. WF is a complete mess that killed co-op through powercreep then continued to beat its corpse into dust.

You know what the funny thing is? Everyone seems to compete for every single spawn in the entire mission. It is like you double your rewards when you kill the most mobs in the mission. But if you go AFK for 1 minute, because your baby cries or your house is burning down, there will be a lot of noise in the teamchat about how you are an AFK leecher :D

[Dunkelheit]

Am 24.1.2024 um 16:51 schrieb HeavyFarms:

I wish people like you actually thought about your opinion. 

Your feel but you dont actually think. The average warframe player kills more enemies than most other games. I've killed literally millions of enemies. The best comparison to warframe are games like diablo. 

There's a reason why corpse explosion, ice sorcerer and the like are popular in diablo. Its to quickly and easily kill hordes of enemies and move on. Its one of the most endamge sought out builds to get, and people spend so much time building their characters to get to that point. You could build single target. Its perfectly viable way to play. But the game is popular because they have options for the different ways people want to play.

Your battle with AOE is endless and not fixable. #1 cause you nerf it, and people will find something else to replace it. You will then complain about whatever replaces it. #2 People enjoy variety, and getting stronger. 

I miss when the tonkor was fun. (a grenade launcher that you could rocket jump with) People like you ruined that gun. Want more? the synoid simulor, the bramma and the zarr. 

At the end of the day, you are removing far more enjoyment from the game than actually contributing cause your problem is never actually solved. You just complain about the next strongest item for being good in a game about power progression. 

Really miss just rocket jumping around on my tonkor. It was fun. I'd like to use my bramma too. But there's no point cause the weapons were nerfed too hard to really be useable. 

Warframe used to have self damage. Yup. It didnt change anything. People just fired the weapons so it didn't kill them. You could bring back self damage and it wouldnt change anything. 

Yup. 

When I fight eidolons, I like to take out my beloved Vectis Prime, build up a crazy damage multiplier and obliterate it one piece at a time. Sometimes I bring status weapons to stack procs till the enemy melts. Sometimes I go valkyr with eternal war and just melee spam till I'm doing 12x damage on hit and everything around me dies. 

AOE weapons are for mob clearing. When it comes to other content, there's many reasons people would use other things. 

Bramma is still very much viable. But sometimes, you have to <gasp> use your secondary weapon, you just can no longer fire your weapon in braindead mode in the vague direction of something red on your radar.

I love it, when people accuse others of "thinking" when they just want to be unfriendly and get their point across.

The game is easily fixable... nerf every AOE by 50% dmg and make single targets way, way stronger in terms of raw weapon power. Weapon incarnations are already a very good idea to address this issue.

[ShockTNC]

On 2024-01-10 at 3:03 PM, Zakkhar said:

1. Why DO you bother? Enemies die, mission is complete, everyone is happy. %dmg on score screen doesnt matter.

2. Play solo or use a speedy frame and have good enemy awareness, so you can kill stuff before others even get there.

3. Dunno what weapons you are talking about but eg. Torid doesnt need precision headshots to charge and Incarnon form is an absolute beast. Shotguns are pretty hard to charge on non SP/non Eximus stuff, due to the stupid bug/overcompansation by WF devs and it has nothiing to do with AoE meta.

4. Melee stuff. Its fun and thanks to Tennokai you can occasionally do something else than Hold E.

Fully agree with all of this.

[ShockTNC]

On 2024-01-10 at 3:12 PM, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Fair point. Just don't wanna be falsely reported for "not contributing" or "AFKing"... when I couldn't even do it in the first place, due to non-AOE nature of my weapon, compared to theirs.

I have played Warframe off and on for I think four years now, and well over a thousand hours in the game, I have never heard of someone getting in trouble for not doing enough damage. Infact there are so many people obsessed with doing the most damage in the squad your more likely to get yelled at for "stealing" kills. 

If someone is nuking the map, no one is going to care that your not also nuking the map.

I do agree that there is an issue though.

 

 

[ShockTNC]

4 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

Bramma is still very much viable. But sometimes, you have to <gasp> use your secondary weapon, you just can no longer fire your weapon in braindead mode in the vague direction of something red on your radar.

I love it, when people accuse others of "thinking" when they just want to be unfriendly and get their point across.

The game is easily fixable... nerf every AOE by 50% dmg and make single targets way, way stronger in terms of raw weapon power. Weapon incarnations are already a very good idea to address this issue.

Constantly nerfing everything is not the solution, other developers have tried that and it never ends well.

I strongly agree that they need to give a bug buff to semi automatics, and they need to give a huge buff to sniper rifles- but nerfing everything else is just going to make more problems.  

[ShockTNC]

On 2024-01-25 at 12:15 PM, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

If you want a slower pace, play solo.

If you want to crack relics at your pace, play solo.

If you have issues keeping up and it makes you feel bad, play solo.

If you want to do 100% of the damage and 100% of the killed in ESO, play solo.

Instead of asking DE and the entire Warframe community to cater to your desired gameplay, play solo.

Demanding that DE continually nerf the AOEs ruining your enjoyment (be they primaries, secondaries, melees or frames) is just going to make many others miserable while leaving your complaining unresolved, as people will simply use the next best thing and you'll still have missions where you contribute 1 or 2 kills at most, prompting you to come back to the forums and make another thread demanding DE nerf whatever the new flavor of the month is.

Easy solution to all your problems is right there: Play solo.

I agree that demanding they nerf everyone elses weapons is very selfish, but there is an argument to be made that right now you will get squads where one person does 90% of the damage even though everyone has fully kitted out meta frames. What OP does not understand is that nerfing AOE damage yet again is not actually going to fix anything.