Cracking Relics is Miserable

[CrownOfShadows]

Reasons it's miserable:

1. Getting a group
2. Getting void traces
3. RNG

Let's analyze all the steps needed to get ONE item:

1. Find out what relic it drops from
2. Get relic packs, open them
3. Search your relics to see if you have the relic
4. If you do not have the relic, find out where you can farm the relic
5. Go farm it
6. And keep farming until you get it
7. Refine the relic
8. Find a group in the tedious and chaotic recruit chat
9. If you are off season, you will likely not find a group, so you either wait hours in recruit chat, use clan resources (discord) or just crack it solo with 1/4 the chance.
10. Make sure everyone in that group is using the right relic, make sure they all have it appropriately refined, make sure everyone stayed and loaded in
11. Run the mission, collect the tedious void traces and make sure you do not finish the mission before everyone has their traces
12. Select a reward, hopefully you got the item you were after

Reminder, this entire process is for one item. You must now repeat this for all items needed. For something like the Akarius that has 6 parts you must repeat this entire process many, many times. And it's not just 6 times, because of RNG, but many many, many, more times than that. What do you figure, something like 20-40 times?

In an ideal world:

This entire system is replaced with something smooth, modern, fun and with clear reward paths. Besides invasions, the relic cracking system & fissures feels like the most dated part of WF.

Fixing the bad system instead:

1. Automatic group finder, just select the item you're after, if you have the relic and the void traces it automatically refines it to the best level and matches you with a group and launches the mission, completely streamlining the whole process. Maybe have a ready-up section before it launches just so everyone can see what mission it is, whether it's SP or not, and prove that they're not afk. If you don't have the resources to launch the mission, it shows you that before you even enter the queue. This way all you have to do is farm and then queue up, all of the major headaches with organizing and searching are removed.
2. In the mission itself eliminate void trace collection altogether OR share void traces in the mission (idk how many times we've asked for this... like what's the holdup?)
3. Implement some form of a pity program for the RNG hell. If item #1 were implemented, you would know what the person is after and can easily track how many times they've tried to get it. Punishing people at random is just such a bad idea, and that's exactly what RNG does. I detest RNG, but if we have to keep it a pity program would go a long way to easing the pain.
4. If you are unable or unwilling to implement an automatic group finder (which btw could be useful for lots of other things in WF), provide dedicated fissures for each release relic that have an entry gate requirement of the appropriately refined relic, that way it acts like a group finder, filtering out all of the headaches with recruiting
5. If you are unable or unwilling to implement a group finder and therefore unable to create a pity program, consider revising relics so that they have 6 tiers of refinement instead of 3, with each item thus having a tier of its own, and when that tier is refined the % goes up for that tier ONLY (no other tiers go up in possibility). This would act like a pity program to some extent, because it would mean you are actually more likely to get the item you are after (instead of being more likely to get one of 2-3 items that may or may not be what you want and also more likely to get a tier you don't care about). I strongly suggest this be considered even independent of other improvements as it would be a major QoL no matter what else you do to the relic system. Seems like a no-brainer improvement to me, idk.

And also....

1. Consider more options for people who want to crack relics in the off-season. When there's no active release, the only fun way of cracking relics is disruption fissures, everything else is a mindless slog. Survival is boring and painful (because of aggro draw and team spread), back-to-back captures is head-bangingly monotonous and also a speed nuke fiesta, spy is terrible for relics, mobile defense is slow and boring, rescue is the same as capture just slightly slower, interception suffers from serious void trace drop problems except in SP but SP suffers from players not being equipped for it, excavation is slow and tedious like survival and has problems with excavator sturdiness and power cells. We need fun, modern, engaging missions that also happen to crack relics, all of these except for disruption are dated and have serious problems that make them grindy/irritating. We need new modes, end of story.
2. Consider more options for people who are after specific items in the off-season. For example, using the group finder to create automatic fissures for the aya relics would be greatly appreciated by the players who are trying to get older items by farming, as recruiting for those is often very painful and slow.
3. Consider longer missions that crack multiple relics for off-season cracking (to save us from going through the selection process so frequently). That is, select like 5 relics right at the start and then just play. Less selection and refinement headaches. In endless modes it's always irritating to go hunting for the next relic to crack among the huge piles of them, and after doing that a dozen times or so I'm burned out anyway and want a break. Streamline that whole thing this way. You could also do things to reward people for staying through the whole thing, like progressively reward more void traces or being more likely to get rare items. Basically it would be like setting up your own reward tree, which is a winning design strategy. If you made it so the longer players stayed the more likely you would be to get rare rewards, this would both encourage players to put their best/most wanted relics at the end and also it would reward solo play more.
4. Consider offering more ways for new players to get void traces. It's a struggle due to low trace acquisition rates, low trace caps and the likely lack of boosters (which do not sustain constant relic cracking anyways).

 

[PollexMessier]

20 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

If you do not have the relic, find out where you can farm the relic

To be fair. you only need to do this step once.
Lith: Void Hepit
Neo/Meso: Void Ukko
Axi: Lua Apollo
Vaulted? Get aya from ether void capture, or bounties.
Or, just blow all your excess syndicate standing on relic packs till you have what you need. Except for Axi which you'll still probably need to farm a bit.

That aside. The process is a soul sucking nightmare because prime access and player trading exists. They wanna make it as painful as possible to encourage you to ether buy the packs or buy platinum to buy it off another player. tbh tho it's surprisingly tame compared to some of the other garbage in the game.

28 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Consider offering more ways for new players to get void traces. It's a struggle due to low trace acquisition rates, low trace caps and the likely lack of boosters (which do not sustain constant relic cracking anyways).

This I would really like to see. But if DE was ever going to make traces faster to get. Steel path fissures was the time they'd have done it. And they didn't. I doubt they ever will, because money.

[ApoXx95]

I actually think it's comparatively fair how they dealt with relics/prime part acquisition without paying any money, but I can understand how this drags on for a lot longer if you're still in the early game and are a lot more limited by daily caps

one thing I always wanted to see (even though this is only really 'helpful' if you run a predetermined squad anyway) would be some sort of consumable item that lets you create a void fissure on any node you want for exactly one mission (for example if you really love running void fissures only on survival or excavation or disruption and there's no fissure like that currently available you at least could force a node to become a fissure of your choosing)

traces should be faster to collect though, I 100% agree with that. even if it's just a  25% chance to drop a single trace from a corrupted enemy 

[MaxTunnerX]

What I find funny is that its much easier to get VAULTED relics and gear than the ones currently on rotation. Why? Becuase you just get aya from relic packs and buy whatever relic you need instead o RNG or trade for it. In any case, relics are likely not going to change as its intentionally bad, trying to motivate you to buy things for real money instead. Until then you can do what I do, get aya from relic packs, get the vaulted relic that pays the most plat (which will btw also have the most people opening it), sell the item you get from it, buy whatever you need for the plat you got from the relic. I find it much easier and more comfortable than doing everything manually using RNG. not to mention I still make positive plat doing this. The only thing you really need to grind is void traces, and you only do that once every few days and very easily with daily reward resource booster.

Edited January 18 by MaxTunnerX

[TeaHawk]

Donate then.

[Merrcenary]

it is so miserable that people farm full sets of a new prime release in less than a day. sure bud

[LuckyNecro]

It is insane, gauss prime isn't released for 24h and the crying alreads starts. Play the game and you dont have any of the problems and get Gauss from alone in 1-2 Weeks.

[taiiat]

i'm not up for adding my own bulk of Text but i'll remind that recent Content additions in the past couple Years or so have been largely pretty 'wonderful' - in the sense that there's cool stuff to see and do, and interesting Rewards/l00t to get, but also setup where it's play as much or as little as you want, whenever you want. play it and get it in your own time.

with Content trending in that direction, then it seems fit for this aspect of the game (Relics and Traces) to similarly trend in a direction that feels a lot better.

[DrivaMain]

If you don't want to deal with RNG, there's always the "hoard prime junk, sell them, and use the plat to get the thing you want from other players" route. Sure, you may not make much (at worst 2 platinum per item), but you don't have to bang your ahead against the "random chance". 

DE is very stingy regarding stuff that affects their revenue unless they receive large-scale backlash. I doubt they'll change it anytime soon because of one complainer. 

 

 

Edited January 18 by DrivaMain

[CrownOfShadows]

Guys, it's not about how fast it is to get this stuff, it's about how miserable it is

[CrownOfShadows]

I swear people make so many straw men on these forums that it's like they live in a double decker barn. Square up to the the real subjects for once.

I bring up that a system is miserable and everyone immediately starts saying how fast it is and how easy it is to get stuff and how DE needs money. It's not about any that geezus did you even read? It's about a bad system, it's about how miserable recruit chat can be even after all these years when there are so many better options, it's about how bad RNG is as a release mechanic, it's about the same old void trace problems we've had for year after year after year, it's about literally any of the things I actually mentioned as opposed to ignorant comments bringing up and conflating other subjects.

 

[Tsukinoki]

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Automatic group finder, just select the item you're after, if you have the relic and the void traces it automatically refines it to the best level and matches you with a group and launches the mission, completely streamlining the whole process. Maybe have a ready-up section before it launches just so everyone can see what mission it is, whether it's SP or not, and prove that they're not afk. If you don't have the resources to launch the mission, it shows you that before you even enter the queue. This way all you have to do is farm and then queue up, all of the major headaches with organizing and searching are removed.

Not too bad of a suggestion honestly, though I don't really see it solving the issue of not finding groups to crack old relics with.

Afterall if you're cracking old vaulted relics what are the chance that there will be other groups of people cracking the same relics?

Sounds like it'll just lead to the same issue of not being able to find groups to crack with, just being automated into solo missions over and over, extremely long wait times, or sitting on the recruit chat trying to find people that even own the same relics as you are trying to crack.

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

In the mission itself eliminate void trace collection altogether OR share void traces in the mission (idk how many times we've asked for this... like what's the holdup?)

Reactant is a basic anti-leech/anti-afk measure.

You have to at least walk around the mission to pick up reactant instead of just parking it in the first tile and walking in circles as you wait for everyone else to do the mission for you, and then spend the 60+ seconds needed for the timer to count down and force extraction.

Reactant isn't going anywhere.

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Implement some form of a pity program for the RNG hell. If item #1 were implemented, you would know what the person is after and can easily track how many times they've tried to get it. Punishing people at random is just such a bad idea, and that's exactly what RNG does. I detest RNG, but if we have to keep it a pity program would go a long way to easing the pain.

With how quickly items are gained from relics, especially when considering how quickly people can get multiple copies of full prime sets to sell, I don't see a pity system as being needed nor warranted.

The odds aren't low enough, and there really isn't a limit to the grinding, so there really isn't a need for a pity system.

It's not like farming really takes all that much time.

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

• If you are unable or unwilling to implement an automatic group finder (which btw could be useful for lots of other things in WF), provide dedicated fissures for each release relic that have an entry gate requirement of the appropriately refined relic, that way it acts like a group finder, filtering out all of the headaches with recruiting

Ahh yes, lets just have 600+ fissures active at all times.

And again this won't really solve your problem of not finding groups to run relics with if you're running vaulted/"off-season" relics.  After all you would still need other people with those same relics that want to run fissures at the same time you do.

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

If you are unable or unwilling to implement a group finder and therefore unable to create a pity program, consider revising relics so that they have 6 tiers of refinement instead of 3, with each item thus having a tier of its own, and when that tier is refined the % goes up for that tier ONLY (no other tiers go up in possibility). This would act like a pity program to some extent, because it would mean you are actually more likely to get the item you are after (instead of being more likely to get one of 2-3 items that may or may not be what you want and also more likely to get a tier you don't care about). I strongly suggest this be considered even independent of other improvements as it would be a major QoL no matter what else you do to the relic system. Seems like a no-brainer improvement to me, idk.

You complain about trace acquisition....then at the same time want to make things take more traces and more steps....

And that's besides the idea being a bit cumbersome and annoying to deal with and verify.

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Consider more options for people who want to crack relics in the off-season. When there's no active release, the only fun way of cracking relics is disruption fissures, everything else is a mindless slog. Survival is boring and painful (because of aggro draw and team spread), back-to-back captures is head-bangingly monotonous and also a speed nuke fiesta, spy is terrible for relics, mobile defense is slow and boring, rescue is the same as capture just slightly slower, interception suffers from serious void trace drop problems except in SP but SP suffers from players not being equipped for it, excavation is slow and tedious like survival and has problems with excavator sturdiness and power cells. We need fun, modern, engaging missions that also happen to crack relics, all of these except for disruption are dated and have serious problems that make them grindy/irritating. We need new modes, end of story.

Speak for yourself.

While disruption is fun for short bursts I get tired of it relatively quickly and would dislike a system that pretty much forced it on me when I was cracking older relics.

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Consider longer missions that crack multiple relics for off-season cracking (to save us from going through the selection process so frequently). That is, select like 5 relics right at the start and then just play. Less selection and refinement headaches. In endless modes it's always irritating to go hunting for the next relic to crack among the huge piles of them, and after doing that a dozen times or so I'm burned out anyway and want a break. Streamline that whole thing this way. You could also do things to reward people for staying through the whole thing, like progressively reward more void traces or being more likely to get rare items. Basically it would be like setting up your own reward tree, which is a winning design strategy. If you made it so the longer players stayed the more likely you would be to get rare rewards, this would both encourage players to put their best/most wanted relics at the end and also it would reward solo play more.

And DE doesn't want to do this because they want "bite-sized" missions, not "Hey , play this one survival node for 2+ hours and you'll get good odds at the rare items!"

They don't want people to feel punished for not being able to do extremely long runs...and that's all this idea would do: Punish you for not being able to dedicate hours upon hours farming the same mission without quitting, because if you quit you lose your streak.

Edited January 18 by Tsukinoki

[Fred_Avant_2019]

It being "miserable" is an opinion, not a scientific fact. You can't expect people to take you seriously when your whole point revolves around RNG being unkind. I skipped over the other things you stated for the sole reason that all of them are things you already do by default on warframe, even if you completely ignore the relic system, therefore it's not relevant to the specific subject that is the relic system. The "who drops what where" is something that's your everyday routine when you're looking for resources to craft something in your foundry; finding a mod or looting a blueprint, relics being no different IS coherent.

My main complaint WOULD have been about traces, but the fact you don't get too much of it is there to force the player to open more relics than they typically should, so that it doesn't just randomly dies out when you're done with one part of what you need.

 

Also an ideal world is when people start realizing voidstorms are a hell of a lot faster than they think, add variety to the mission types and most importantly, can straight up reward players with full on rad relics with a decent probability and newest relics are also quite common as mission rewards, AND doing that will get you tenet melees & ferrox or allow you to max out their "progenitor" stats, on top of being a VERY generous source of helminth resources. But no, gotta keep doing these "fast" captures with TS Titania (or be the guys in the forums complaining about it, or Volt granting speed) and gain pretty much nothing because that's what their favorite content creator does, then blame it on the game being not fun. You're doing this to yourself by limiting the things you do in game. Why?

[CrownOfShadows]

5 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Afterall if you're cracking old vaulted relics what are the chance that there will be other groups of people cracking the same relics?

6 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Ahh yes, lets just have 600+ fissures active at all times.

Please notice that i specified RELEASE relics pretty much everywhere. Vaulted relics or even active non-release relics would not have fissures and you would have to get groups the old fashioned way. This is specifically to address the issues with releases. If we want to fix group finding for all relics, then we need to overhaul the whole relic system.

8 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Traces is a basic anti-leech/anti-afk measure.

You have to at least walk around the mission to pick up traces instead of just parking it in the first tile and walking in circles as you wait for everyone else to do the mission for you, and then spend the 60+ seconds needed for the timer to count down and force extraction.

I doubt this. Maybe it used to be, but there are better afk detectors in place than this, and you could easily only award the people who make it to the finish.

8 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

With how quickly items are gained from relics, especially when considering how quickly people can get multiple copies of full prime sets to sell, I don't see a pity system as being needed nor warranted.

This is easy to say, but hard to believe in after you dump 10 radiant relics without getting anything. This is the kind of comment somebody who doesn't actually run anything makes, no offense if you do, but it's out of touch and it ignores the real gut punches that happen because of RNG.

10 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

It's not like farming really takes all that much time.

Well, this depends on who you ask doesn't it? If you ask an L4 then sure, it was easy, because they dumped all their standing and SE and got 50 relics. But I dare you to tell this to new players who have to manually go farm relics, because OH YES, it does take time, a lot of time.

13 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

You complain about trace acquisition....then at the same time want to make things take more traces and more steps....

Maybe you aren't understanding this. It does not take any more steps or any more traces, it's just a better way of structuring relics and probability.

14 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

And that's besides the idea being a bit cumbersome and annoying to deal with and verify.

Uh, is that so? In what way? Seems perfectly fine to me.

15 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Speak for yourself.

While disruption is fun for short bursts I get tired of it relatively quickly and would dislike a system that pretty much forced it on me when I was cracking older relics.

Hence the text "we need new modes". Emphasis on the NEW part.

16 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

They don't want people to feel punished for not being able to do extremely long runs...and that's all this idea would do: Punish you for not being able to dedicate hours upon hours farming the same mission without quitting, because if you quit you lose your streak.

No, it does not punish you. It rewards you. There's a real difference. FOMO isn't punishment. And "extremely long" in this context might be the equivalent of 4 or 5 missions, which is not what I would call "extremely long". Are you upset that the Circuit has a bonus up to round 5, "forcing" people to stay? Are you upset that the circuit has a tree you have to move up through, "forcing" you to keep playing it to get it?

[CrownOfShadows]

9 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

It being "miserable" is an opinion, not a scientific fact. You can't expect people to take you seriously when your whole point revolves around RNG being unkind. I skipped over the other things you stated for the sole reason that all of them are things you already do by default on warframe, even if you completely ignore the relic system, therefore it's not relevant to the specific subject that is the relic system. The "who drops what where" is something that's your everyday routine when you're looking for resources to craft something in your foundry; finding a mod or looting a blueprint, relics being no different IS coherent.

My main complaint WOULD have been about traces, but the fact you don't get too much of it is there to force the player to open more relics than they typically should, so that it doesn't just randomly dies out when you're done with one part of what you need.

 

Also an ideal world is when people start realizing voidstorms are a hell of a lot faster than they think, add variety to the mission types and most importantly, can straight up reward players with full on rad relics with a decent probability and newest relics are also quite common as mission rewards, AND doing that will get you tenet melees & ferrox or allow you to max out their "progenitor" stats, on top of being a VERY generous source of helminth resources. But no, gotta keep doing these "fast" captures with TS Titania (or be the guys in the forums complaining about it, or Volt granting speed) and gain pretty much nothing because that's what their favorite content creator does, then blame it on the game being not fun. You're doing this to yourself by limiting the things you do in game. Why?

Sorry I didn't read anything you said after I saw you skipped everything I said.

[Tsukinoki]

34 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Please notice that i specified RELEASE relics pretty much everywhere. Vaulted relics or even active non-release relics would not have fissures and you would have to get groups the old fashioned way. This is specifically to address the issues with releases. If we want to fix group finding for all relics, then we need to overhaul the whole relic system.

Except you don't.

You mention release relics twice in your OP, and not in the section that talks about having a group finder (or point out in the below where you do actually refer to release relics):

6 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Automatic group finder, just select the item you're after, if you have the relic and the void traces it automatically refines it to the best level and matches you with a group and launches the mission, completely streamlining the whole process. Maybe have a ready-up section before it launches just so everyone can see what mission it is, whether it's SP or not, and prove that they're not afk. If you don't have the resources to launch the mission, it shows you that before you even enter the queue. This way all you have to do is farm and then queue up, all of the major headaches with organizing and searching are removed.

So please don't try to say "Oh but I was meaning release relics everywhere!  I just never mentioned it and hoped everyone would know to automatically apply that term to every single item even though I didn't mention it before item 4 and it looks like it might be pertaining specifically to that item...." (which fair point I did miss it for item 4)

 

Further beyond that if you are talking about finding groups run run the new relics in, that's quite easy and fast to do.  Recruit chat is right now hopping and it doesn't take long to find a mission and hop into it and start cracking to get some of the new relics.
It's how I managed to get Gauss Prime last night, and it didn't take long at all to find groups with the new relics.

 

In fact the only time matching for relics becomes annoying/difficult is when you're looking for older and vaulted relics, which is why I assumed that's what you meant with that item I quoted.

If you're having difficulty finding groups to play new relics on, what region are you in?

41 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I doubt this. Maybe it used to be, but there are better afk detectors in place than this, and you could easily only award the people who make it to the finish.

Except there really isn't.  DE's AFK is rather basic, which is why there are so many complaints on that specific topic.

So unless you can figure out a way that ensures activity and not "Sit in the first tile with an auto-run script as you passively collect prime parts...." then feel free to share.

43 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

This is easy to say, but hard to believe in after you dump 10 radiant relics without getting anything. This is the kind of comment somebody who doesn't actually run anything makes, no offense if you do, but it's out of touch and it ignores the real gut punches that happen because of RNG.

I get punched by bad RNG all the time.

It's why I dread running void storms in RJ because I have horribly bad luck getting the corrupted holo-keys.

And sure bad luck is going to happen, but I honestly feel you're blowing a few streaks of bad luck out of proportion.

45 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Well, this depends on who you ask doesn't it? If you ask an L4 then sure, it was easy, because they dumped all their standing and SE and got 50 relics. But I dare you to tell this to new players who have to manually go farm relics, because OH YES, it does take time, a lot of time.

And I have to ask:
Compared to what?

What is your baseline here?  Because depending on the other games you play and other things you do then no, farming relics and traces and all that stuff doesn't really take a long time to do.  Nor does it take that long to get into the habit of stockpiling the various medallions to turn into relics when something drops to cut that farming short.

47 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

No, it does not punish you. It rewards you. There's a real difference. FOMO isn't punishment. And "extremely long" in this context might be the equivalent of 4 or 5 missions, which is not what I would call "extremely long". Are you upset that the Circuit has a bonus up to round 5, "forcing" people to stay? Are you upset that the circuit has a tree you have to move up through, "forcing" you to keep playing it to get it?

Punishment vs Reward in this instance is purely a term of perspective.

If someone can spend hours  sitting in a single mission and get better drop rates for it?  Sure it looks like a reward.
If you can't (due to life, job, school, etc)?  Then it's a punishment because you can't spend hours in a single mission so get punished by the system by having a lower drop rate simply for having a life outside of the game.

 

As to your circuit reference:
Sure while you do get a stacking bonus that does reward a streak it's not a severe bonus, nor does it dramatically speed up the rate at which you gain ranks.

As to the circuit reward "tree": That is something you can put down and come back to later, not just "Well I'm locked into this for the next 90+ minutes to start having good drop rates...." like a continuous mission streak is.  So please don't try to conflate two drastically different things.  This comparison would only hold water if you had to get to rank 10 in a single run with no breaks in order to get that reward....

[CrownOfShadows]

10 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Further beyond that if you are talking about finding groups run run the new relics in, that's quite easy and fast to do.  Recruit chat is right now hopping and it doesn't take long to find a mission and hop into it and start cracking to get some of the new relics

So you're saying the current recruit chat system is great, has no issues and should be left as is, is that right?

11 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Except there really isn't.  DE's AFK is rather basic, which is why there are so many complaints on that specific topic.

If your entire reason for not fixing the reactant problems is concerns over afk... nahh man you gotta do better than that, what a lame excuse. We can fix things, it's ok to fix them, don't be scared of change. Try to imagine possibilities instead of criticizing everything and saying how impossible everything is.

14 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

s to the circuit reward "tree": That is something you can put down and come back to later, not just "Well I'm locked into this for the next 90+ minutes to start having good drop rates...." like a continuous mission streak is.

Except that a "continuous mission streak" is not necessarily good drop rates, and also the proposed system STARTS with our current "good drop rates" and improves from there as incentive. Would you rather there's zero bonus for continuing in such a system? Yay, what a great design philosophy.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 8 heures, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Sorry I didn't read anything you said after I saw you skipped everything I said.

 

Il y a 8 heures, Fred_Avant_2019 a dit :

I skipped over the other things you stated for the sole reason that all of them are things you already do by default on warframe, even if you completely ignore the relic system

No worries mate. Was just exposing your bs, don't mind any of it.

[CrownOfShadows]

8 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

 

No worries mate. Was just exposing your bs, don't mind any of it.

That must be pretty hard to do if you didn't read anything I said. Sounds like you're twice as full of it.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 2 heures, CrownOfShadows a dit :

That must be pretty hard to do if you didn't read anything I said. Sounds like you're twice as full of it.

I did read, I was pretending I did not because you're complaining about the core of the game, not relics themselves.

 

Le 18/01/2024 à 12:08, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Let's analyze all the steps needed to get ONE item:

1. Find out what relic it drops from
2. Get relic packs, open them
3. Search your relics to see if you have the relic
4. If you do not have the relic, find out where you can farm the relic
5. Go farm it
6. And keep farming until you get it
7. Refine the relic
8. Find a group in the tedious and chaotic recruit chat
9. If you are off season, you will likely not find a group, so you either wait hours in recruit chat, use clan resources (discord) or just crack it solo with 1/4 the chance.
10. Make sure everyone in that group is using the right relic, make sure they all have it appropriately refined, make sure everyone stayed and loaded in
11. Run the mission, collect the tedious void traces and make sure you do not finish the mission before everyone has their traces
12. Select a reward, hopefully you got the item you were after

You'd go through the same steps trying to acquire a blueprint or a mod, except you're probably not going to try your luck in recruit chat to acquire a multishot mod or something of the like, you're most likely going to go on your own, whatever happens, an item you'd require involves farming on this game.

That's what drop tables are, the entire game is like this, relics just so happen to be items that have a drop table within them. When you're bypassing the drop tables, you're spending platinum, premium currency, or in other words, real world money (well except the select few starter guns you acquire for credits, but these do not come with preinstalled orokin catalysts or their own weapon slot). With relics, that's no different, you're bypassing the drop tables with real money, not plat this time (unless you're trading to people who farm but I've not seen you point out that this was a thing).

 

Le 18/01/2024 à 12:08, CrownOfShadows a dit :

In an ideal world:

This entire system is replaced with something smooth, modern, fun and with clear reward paths. Besides invasions, the relic cracking system & fissures feels like the most dated part of WF.

Something smooth, modern, fun and with clear reward paths... so the Circuit then? The gamemode people do not return to when they're done with all the reward paths? But you said ...

Le 18/01/2024 à 12:08, CrownOfShadows a dit :

If you are off season, you will likely not find a group, so you either wait hours in recruit chat, use clan resources (discord) or just crack it solo with 1/4 the chance.

I'm not saying the Circuit system can't be improved, but it hasn't been thus far. Extra kuva and rivens are not it.

 

Le 18/01/2024 à 12:08, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Fixing the bad system instead:

1. Automatic group finder, just select the item you're after, if you have the relic and the void traces it automatically refines it to the best level and matches you with a group and launches the mission, completely streamlining the whole process. Maybe have a ready-up section before it launches just so everyone can see what mission it is, whether it's SP or not, and prove that they're not afk. If you don't have the resources to launch the mission, it shows you that before you even enter the queue. This way all you have to do is farm and then queue up, all of the major headaches with organizing and searching are removed.

So basically, nothing changes, except you don't go through the UI to upgrade relics, it's done automatically with no thoughts involved and absolutely no form of social interaction is required.

Le 18/01/2024 à 12:08, CrownOfShadows a dit :

In the mission itself eliminate void trace collection altogether OR share void traces in the mission (idk how many times we've asked for this... like what's the holdup?)

I'll quote someone else on that :

Il y a 20 heures, Tsukinoki a dit :

Reactant is a basic anti-leech/anti-afk measure.

You have to at least walk around the mission to pick up reactant instead of just parking it in the first tile and walking in circles as you wait for everyone else to do the mission for you, and then spend the 60+ seconds needed for the timer to count down and force extraction.

Reactant isn't going anywhere.

Seems reasonable enough when you can see exactly that happen in Voidstorms, where leechers just stick to a gunnery slot and sit there while you do the mission and get traces, though Railjack has its own layer of issues that can't be treated quite the same as ground missions, but it still shows.

Le 18/01/2024 à 12:08, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Implement some form of a pity program for the RNG hell. If item #1 were implemented, you would know what the person is after and can easily track how many times they've tried to get it. Punishing people at random is just such a bad idea, and that's exactly what RNG does. I detest RNG, but if we have to keep it a pity program would go a long way to easing the pain.

I WOULD not be against it if it didn't straight up destroy economy altogether. You do this, suddenly the entire market crashes for every item, including vaulted part gold rolls.

Le 18/01/2024 à 12:08, CrownOfShadows a dit :

If you are unable or unwilling to implement an automatic group finder (which btw could be useful for lots of other things in WF), provide dedicated fissures for each release relic that have an entry gate requirement of the appropriately refined relic, that way it acts like a group finder, filtering out all of the headaches with recruiting

So then less recruit chat action, right?

Le 18/01/2024 à 12:08, CrownOfShadows a dit :

If you are unable or unwilling to implement a group finder and therefore unable to create a pity program, consider revising relics so that they have 6 tiers of refinement instead of 3, with each item thus having a tier of its own, and when that tier is refined the % goes up for that tier ONLY (no other tiers go up in possibility). This would act like a pity program to some extent, because it would mean you are actually more likely to get the item you are after (instead of being more likely to get one of 2-3 items that may or may not be what you want and also more likely to get a tier you don't care about). I strongly suggest this be considered even independent of other improvements as it would be a major QoL no matter what else you do to the relic system. Seems like a no-brainer improvement to me, idk.

That's not what a pity system is. You're just altering the odds to make them more favorable towards a single item, you're not solving anything with this, you're just making it worse for people who trade parts and plats.

Le 18/01/2024 à 12:08, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Consider more options for people who want to crack relics in the off-season. When there's no active release, the only fun way of cracking relics is disruption fissures, everything else is a mindless slog. Survival is boring and painful (because of aggro draw and team spread), back-to-back captures is head-bangingly monotonous and also a speed nuke fiesta, spy is terrible for relics, mobile defense is slow and boring, rescue is the same as capture just slightly slower, interception suffers from serious void trace drop problems except in SP but SP suffers from players not being equipped for it, excavation is slow and tedious like survival and has problems with excavator sturdiness and power cells. We need fun, modern, engaging missions that also happen to crack relics, all of these except for disruption are dated and have serious problems that make them grindy/irritating. We need new modes, end of story

Top 10 worst takes. "Spy is terrible for relics", it's not, the map size will be the same as an exterminate on average, the objective is as short as a few ciphers spent (which you can craft in the hundreds per minute). No mentions of Voidstorm skirmishes, yet still going on with "we need new modes".

Le 18/01/2024 à 12:08, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Consider more options for people who are after specific items in the off-season. For example, using the group finder to create automatic fissures for the aya relics would be greatly appreciated by the players who are trying to get older items by farming, as recruiting for those is often very painful and slow

More issues with recruit chat.

Le 18/01/2024 à 12:08, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Consider longer missions that crack multiple relics for off-season cracking (to save us from going through the selection process so frequently). That is, select like 5 relics right at the start and then just play. Less selection and refinement headaches. In endless modes it's always irritating to go hunting for the next relic to crack among the huge piles of them, and after doing that a dozen times or so I'm burned out anyway and want a break. Streamline that whole thing this way. You could also do things to reward people for staying through the whole thing, like progressively reward more void traces or being more likely to get rare items. Basically it would be like setting up your own reward tree, which is a winning design strategy. If you made it so the longer players stayed the more likely you would be to get rare rewards, this would both encourage players to put their best/most wanted relics at the end and also it would reward solo play more

Someone else made a valid point about this :

Il y a 21 heures, Tsukinoki a dit :

And DE doesn't want to do this because they want "bite-sized" missions, not "Hey , play this one survival node for 2+ hours and you'll get good odds at the rare items!"

They don't want people to feel punished for not being able to do extremely long runs...and that's all this idea would do: Punish you for not being able to dedicate hours upon hours farming the same mission without quitting, because if you quit you lose your streak.

As much as people are able to make Gauss Prime sets within hours of his release, that's not how DE intends it for players. That's also why they capped to 25 the number of relic packs you can get per week with steel essences, you are NOT meant to get all the new stuff day 1 by just playing normally (even though you most definitely can).

Le 18/01/2024 à 12:08, CrownOfShadows a dit :

Consider offering more ways for new players to get void traces. It's a struggle due to low trace acquisition rates, low trace caps and the likely lack of boosters (which do not sustain constant relic cracking anyways).

That's good, because DE does not want you to be able to sustain constant relic cracking, because they do not want you to get everything within minutes of the update. Newest players have it the worst, but everything gets easier as you progress through the game, just like any subsystem within the game. Shocker, I know.

 

So what has changed?

Il y a 21 heures, Fred_Avant_2019 a dit :

It being "miserable" is an opinion, not a scientific fact. You can't expect people to take you seriously when your whole point revolves around RNG being unkind.

That's why you have people saying this :

Le 18/01/2024 à 14:11, Merrcenary a dit :

it is so miserable that people farm full sets of a new prime release in less than a day. sure bud

Le 18/01/2024 à 14:18, LuckyNecro a dit :

It is insane, gauss prime isn't released for 24h and the crying alreads starts. Play the game and you dont have any of the problems and get Gauss from alone in 1-2 Weeks.

Then you go on with this :

Il y a 21 heures, CrownOfShadows a dit :

I swear people make so many straw men on these forums that it's like they live in a double decker barn. Square up to the the real subjects for once.

I bring up that a system is miserable and everyone immediately starts saying how fast it is and how easy it is to get stuff and how DE needs money. It's not about any that geezus did you even read? It's about a bad system, it's about how miserable recruit chat can be even after all these years when there are so many better options, it's about how bad RNG is as a release mechanic, it's about the same old void trace problems we've had for year after year after year, it's about literally any of the things I actually mentioned as opposed to ignorant comments bringing up and conflating other subjects.

 

Then I realise it's more something about you having issues with the social aspect of the game : "it's about how miserable recruit chat can be even after all these years when there are so many better options". It's functional and serves its purpose. You don't want to use it.

"it's about how bad RNG is as a release mechanic", that's such a valid point after knowing what sort of sorry state the Steel Path Circuit is in (I'm talking about Incarnon genesis release). 0% RNG involved, 0 reasons to return to anything Duviri-related once you're done with what it provides, go figure.

 

Makes me have a giggle seeing you go on with the other guy and then talk like I'm "so full of it", look at you go :

Il y a 20 heures, Tsukinoki a dit :

Except there really isn't.  DE's AFK is rather basic, which is why there are so many complaints on that specific topic.

So unless you can figure out a way that ensures activity and not "Sit in the first tile with an auto-run script as you passively collect prime parts...." then feel free to share.

Il y a 19 heures, CrownOfShadows a dit :

If your entire reason for not fixing the reactant problems is concerns over afk... nahh man you gotta do better than that, what a lame excuse. We can fix things, it's ok to fix them, don't be scared of change. Try to imagine possibilities instead of criticizing everything and saying how impossible everything is.

Well look who's skipping over what someone else said... aKsHuAlLy iF yOu ReAd, they're not "scared of change", they're saying that your reactants suggestion leaves room open for AFK leechers because current AFK detection system doesn't account for players "sitting in the first tile with an auto run script", something you can see happen in Voidstorms, since reactants are shared like any resources there. That's a valid argument, but no, "they're criticizing everything and saying how impossible everything is", for sure.

Your thread boils down to you complaining about the game's core mechanic (drop tables) and how you do not want to socialize with other players through the recruit chat to open relics or trade to compensate for your lack of good rng then blaming people who point out your falacies and self centered ideas and inovations by "you've not read the post". There was nothing much of interest to read to begin with, your "suggestions" are anything but friendly to socialization/interactions between players, only makes sense people try to help you by finding alternatives or point and laugh at your self induced misery.

 

If all you can see of worth in another player is what relic they bring to your mission, I pity you. That goes for you and likeminded people that keep crying about how they want a matchmaking system that excludes all but what they're specifically looking for.

[CrownOfShadows]

8 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

I did read, I was pretending I did not because you're complaining about the core of the game, not relics themselves.

Surprise. Fissures are the core of the game. It's literally the central game mode of the entire game. Everything revolves around them.

11 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

So basically, nothing changes, except you don't go through the UI to upgrade relics, it's done automatically with no thoughts involved and absolutely no form of social interaction is required.

It's called streamlining. It reduces a 10 or 20 step process into a 2 step process. If your core argument against this is that you want "social interaction", well I hate to break it to you, but recruit chat is not that. If recruit chat is your idea of social interaction... lol...

14 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

So then less recruit chat action, right?

At least 1% of something sunk in.

14 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Seems reasonable enough when you can see exactly that happen in Voidstorms, where leechers just stick to a gunnery slot and sit there while you do the mission and get traces, though Railjack has its own layer of issues that can't be treated quite the same as ground missions, but it still shows.

Yeah I can't believe you guys are out here trying to defend the void traces. It's a problem, it's been a problem forever, and the fact you are so hard in denial about that is concerning - makes me think you don't care at all about bad systems or bad design, and that you only care about injecting your ego on the forums. Do you really not understand why it's bad?

18 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

"it's about how miserable recruit chat can be even after all these years when there are so many better options". It's functional and serves its purpose. You don't want to use it.

Here we go about recruit chat again. Have you ever played other games? There are WAY better ways of structuring and organizing player activities. Oh, I listed a couple. Does recruit chat work. Sure. Does it serve it's purpose. Sure. Is it outdated ghetto tech unworthy of WF? yeah. So is trade chat, but w/e i'm sure you think that's the most awesome system ever too. What a joke.

20 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

"it's about how bad RNG is as a release mechanic", that's such a valid point after knowing what sort of sorry state the Steel Path Circuit is in (I'm talking about Incarnon genesis release). 0% RNG involved, 0 reasons to return to anything Duviri-related once you're done with what it provides, go figure

I'm sorry are you trying to compare relics to the Circuit or something? IDK what wild tangent this is, but it's ignoring the central issue (as usual): RNG sucks as a release mechanic. Do you need me to explain why RNG sucks? Probably you do, and after I'd explain it you'd try to deny it, because you don't care about how bad the systems are that you don't have to personally interact with.

25 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Well look who's skipping over what someone else said... aKsHuAlLy iF yOu ReAd, they're not "scared of change", they're saying that your reactants suggestion leaves room open for AFK leechers because current AFK detection system doesn't account for players "sitting in the first tile with an auto run script", something you can see happen in Voidstorms, since reactants are shared like any resources there. That's a valid argument, but no, "they're criticizing everything and saying how impossible everything is", for sure.

That's not a valid argument in the least. "Oh we can't improve the void trace problem because AFK!" Pathetic. And you should be ashamed of yourself equally for defending it. You don't like me pointing out problems and offering solutions? And as for AFK detection, not that it matters in the slightest for the point being made, but unless you have an article from DE saying that void trace collection is the primary method of AFK detection in fissures ima just laugh at you. I've rarely seen such a pathetic excuse for keeping a bad feature.

1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

I WOULD not be against it if it didn't straight up destroy economy altogether. You do this, suddenly the entire market crashes for every item, including vaulted part gold rolls.

This is completely and utterly false. It would barely even nudge the market at best. Maybe if you reach harder.

49 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Top 10 worst takes. "Spy is terrible for relics", it's not, the map size will be the same as an exterminate on average, the objective is as short as a few ciphers spent (which you can craft in the hundreds per minute). No mentions of Voidstorm skirmishes, yet still going on with "we need new modes".

Lol, somehow your ego got you in here defending Spy fissures as not being the worst fissure type. Ok what you got? Letsee your argument for spy not being the worst is that the map size is somewhat equivalent? Really dude. That's your argument? Get real. And what do ciphers have to do with any of this? Cmon, you're reaching at straws. Sigh, wish people would just own up when people point obvious things out but no we gotta try to defend them...

Voidstorms are the same missions just with extra steps. If that's *new* for you.

29 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Your thread boils down to you complaining about the game's core mechanic (drop tables) and how you do not want to socialize with other players through the recruit chat to open relics or trade to compensate for your lack of good rng then blaming people who point out your falacies and self centered ideas and inovations by "you've not read the post". There was nothing much of interest to read to begin with, your "suggestions" are anything but friendly to socialization/interactions between players, only makes sense people try to help you by finding alternatives or point and laugh at your self induced misery.

 

If all you can see of worth in another player is what relic they bring to your mission, I pity you. That goes for you and likeminded people that keep crying about how they want a matchmaking system that excludes all but what they're specifically looking for.

No, it doesn't boil down to that. You're trying to make it about something it's not, just like those two losers who tried to make it about how fast and easy getting prime gear is on release because they probably only read the title. I find it funny you tried to defend them too when they so obviously didn't read anything.

It's not about social aspects either, not in the slightest, and you really hammered on that for some bizarre unknown reason, which tells me you probably have deep social insecurities yourself, or you were just looking for something to skewer me on because you had no valid points to make so you decided to try to attack me personally. In which case, shame on you dude. Maybe care about the game instead of yourself. I'm here bringing up real issues, and you don't have the balls to admit that they're real issues. And btw these are not new issues. These are well known issues that go back for YEARS that we all know about, and it would be great if we could finally do something about them. Don't like my suggestions? Fine, at least agree with the listed problems first and then suggest your own fixes instead of attacking the person who's pointing them out and denying and dodging the points. Don't think they're real issues? (even though they definitely are) Fine. Try listing WHY because the only reason I saw thrown down was this bs afk stuff, which somehow makes the void trace problem not a problem I guess, which is laughable.

I suggest a group finder and a some simple fixes to the relic system and you guys lose your minds and talk about everything EXCEPT the real problems. Void traces? Oh let's talk about AFK detection and map size and ciphers. Cmon son, man up and face the issue. Recruit chat? Oh let's dream up a personal issue for you instead so we can talk about that. SMH.

Your last comment here is particularly appalling. You think people who want smart and modern matchmaking are losers? No. They're average people. You're the loser for attacking them for a very legitimate desire. It's 2024 and we should not be posting text in an overstuffed scrollbox to find a group in one of the biggest and most successful games in history.

[balckillofdeath]

you and I must have very different philosophies when it comes to relic farming.

step 1. i rarely "hard" farm for particular items. (what does that mean? it means that i rarely i am looking for exactly one particular item at any given time.) (the only exception to this is for prime resurgance due to picking the relics you need with aya)

i see running public void fissure, I will often get parts that i need without ever actually running with the intent to get  that particular item. or i get ducats. i hardly think oh, i am gonna farm for only for guass prime.(i literally got gauss prime from only public void fissures(nothing recruit chat) this strategy works surprisingly well for many items in the game.(the newer you are the better this is)(for reference i have enough items to be mastery rank 29 and yet still try for a more passive strategy than hard far

this strategy is slightly offset by marking vaulted relics(with items needed) as exceptional for later refinement when i either feel like running a bunch or just happening to check out recruit chat.

while, i realize you and I might differ in opinions. i find myself surprisingly enjoying the reactant mechanic(i feel like i am  collecting more loot!) while many argue that it prevents afk behaivor( i agree) I enjoy the sounds of picking the reactant and then display telling you have opened your relic.

personally, i only find it terrible when people refuse to help others with getting reactant(basically starting excavators too fast, running and sitting on extraction asap on capture/exterminate)

 

when it comes to void trace(not reactant) farming, i am also often farming other things. so i will pick my void fissure based on what planets are available plus mission type. i will commonly get some of that in addition to void traces/ducats. this leaves me hardly ever running the same mission type all the time.  this means more variety with mission than only capture or exterminate missions(personally these are my least favorite due to people wanting to go so fast that they often leave other people behind.maybe not even intentionally but still)

for example i will run survival and try leveling items at the same time. and maybe hoping for certain resource to drop.  this means that no matter what i might be my luck in one department(no high ducat items, terrible void trace gain or terrible resource acquire) it often leads to at least one being either decent or amazing.

 

the reason a pity system will likely never be introduced is because of trade chat/prime packs. devs have said that prime packs make them a lot of money.

 

and when it comes to relics. i dont farm them nearly ever. because they drop from nearly every mission in the game. the only exception i can think of is duvuri.

 

 

however despite all my disagreements with the above i will agree with you on recruit chat could be greatly improved as well as trade chat.

 

[tomnmillie]

On 2024-01-18 at 6:08 AM, CrownOfShadows said:

Consider offering more ways for new players to get void traces. It's a struggle due to low trace acquisition rates, low trace caps and the likely lack of boosters (which do not sustain constant relic cracking anyways).

 

Always seemed to me that reactant that dropped after a relic is cracked should be converted to void traces

[Famecans]

my criticism against crack relics is mission failures and slow loading screens

[CrownOfShadows]

As a half measure, another solution would be to share traces with all Tenno in affinity range. A similar option would be to use corrupted kills as a meter, and share those kills like affinity - it takes out the step of RNG material drops (kills are reliable, rng is not). This would help the void trace collection problems, but fissures need more than just this. Building even further on this, we could simply use direct affinity gain to gradually crack the relic, as that comes from even more sources and is less susceptible to runaway speednukers.

 

The problems with void traces and fissures are manifold. How about a list of them:

1. Exterminate & Rescue: speedrunners leaving stragglers behind only to reach the end and one or more people not have enough traces, forcing heavy backtracking for everyone or the occasional bad mannered force extract minus someobody's reward. And sometimes, no amount of backtracking will solve the problem.
2. Exterminate & Survival: slower team members getting left behind and causing fissure aggro to drift. While similar to the above point, this is actually a separate issue with where fissures decide to spawn. Usually but not always this seems to happen around the area that has the most players within affinity range of each other. But we all know sometimes they spawn around the one guy 5 miles ahead or the one guy 5 miles behind. Survival is further complicated by being non-linear: that is players are spread out in all directions and instead of backtracking along the exit path to find traces players must backtrack along every player's path to find the missing traces.
3. Interception: is a unique problem. In non-SP fissures an interception tower typically needs to be left un-controlled because controlling all 4 towers almost always results in the entire team being shorted one or two void traces when 100% is hit, which is awful design. Interceptions are time gated missions and you are here forcing even more time to be spent beyond what is mandatory - and why? - because other systems (rng/spawn/corruption) are failing. It's like a Russian nesting doll of bad designs. SP fissures on the other hand are problematic because they are more difficult than most missions (because the aggro system will bury one tower in enemies which can overwhelm an unprepared player, anyone who's tried to go pub r4 on a Berehynia fissure knows what's up), and also awkwardly require you to abandon your defense objectives (to go get void traces).
4. Excavation: suffers from being overly reliant on excavator progress, which is subject to long-standing issues of survivability, energy cell availability, aggro vanishing, and a lot of hiking.
5. Speed Killing before Corruption: only very rarely do players seem to realize that when a group of enemies spawns and runs at them they can actually be left alone so that a fissure can corrupt them later. Instead, everyone kills everything as fast as possible - and this often makes many of the above issues worse.
6. Difficulty marking Traces: ever finally get those missing traces and then try to mark them for the rest of the team? Then you know this pain.
7. Defense/Excavation/Survival/Interception compared to Rescue/Capture: the dramatic disparity in times for the exact same result is bad. If you're going to force players to play at predetermined rate X and then offer other players rate Y that they can mostly set themselves, then you should scrap or speed up rate X or slow down rate Y to be competitive, or make mission X rewards scale based on mission Y rewards. They should be style choices not efficiency choices. Basically in the current system you are charging people plat for making the foolish choice to run defense/excavation/survival/interception
8. Disruption: in non-SP disruptions, it is easily possible to complete all 4 conduits before everyone has traces, something which typically results in the immediate abandonment of the mission by most or all of the players. Despite this, players never seem to cease keeping this behavior alive. This can also happen by mistake, if two people activate the final two conduits nearly simultaneously, unaware of each other. Once again, here is a mode that asks everyone to stop doing the mission and wait for fissures to corrupt some enemies which hopefully drop the needed traces upon being killed. Basically, stop and wait for RNG. Disruption also occasionally suffers from aggro drifting, but not as severely as others.
9. Spy: more than any other mode, this creates aggro drift. More than any other mode this demands that the mission not be played until sufficient rng jail time is served. More than any other mode, very few people actually come equipped for it. Using affinity instead would boost this mode considerably (opening vaults gives you affinity)
10. Mobile Defense/ Assault: suffer from middle child syndrome. It has a mandatory jail sentence less than other modes like survival and excavation, but more than capture/rescue. Again, this should scale in time to match the standard (whatever that is meant to be) OR its rewards should.
11. Endless modes cannot benefit from gained traces, forcing a restart in order to 'recharge' the irritating design decision. I assume this is an intentional failsafe to prevent people sitting in fissures and benefiting from them for as long as they want, in which case my response would be the same as elsewhere: #1 they can just restart, and because your scaling rewards kinda suck, nothing is lost. #2 if you don't want players playing your endless missions endlessly, then don't make them endless. Look mom I solved it.
12. Recharge. Void Traces, as we all know, are very hard to recharge without boosters. How hard? Miserable hard. Let's say you're a new player on a tight wallet. Let's say you want to crack 1 radiant relic. You need 100 traces. How many fissures do you need to run to get 100 traces? Something like 10 missions. That is pain with a capital P, because the likelihood of you getting the desired item even after all that effort is SO small. In fact, if you crack it solo, you are almost guaranteed to not get what you want. How many radiant relics do you need to get an item solo? From personal experience I can say it's often close to 10. That's 100 mission's worth of void traces - yes you must run 100 missions to get a reasonable chance of getting one part for an item. How many HOURS is that??!?! When you compare that to something like netracells, it really puts relic cracking into perspective. It's hell. Is that respecting a player's time? No. Netracells are heaven by comparison. Yes, rad groups help, and resource boosters help, cutting this way down, but the base system design by itself is raw sadism.

So let's think now: should we go through items 1-10 and try to individually solve them by fixing spawn rate and aggro logic and map design and mission design and mission mechanics and fissure spawns and even frame and weapon design to stop nukers? Lotsa problems huh? OR... should we just change how trace collection works? YOU DECIDE>