Nuke Builds Are Ruining Gameplay Enjoyment

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 18 minutos, Aruquae dijo:

Anyways, this is getting old. Tbf this got old like 20 pages ago. Are you really going to stay doomed to write walls of  texts to people you don’t agree with?

but it's fun to read their crazy stuff.

[Aruquae]

I have returned with my coffee cake, but now I’m wondering why it contains no actual caffeine. Not that I’m complaining, but it just feels weird. My guess is because it “pairs well with coffee,” whatever that means. 

15 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

but it's fun to read their crazy stuff.

I can’t argue with the truth. 

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Yes, you can nerf the enemies like in the second example because no, the gap is not "still the same". 2 is not the same as 10. You're just plain wrong. Nerfs can achieve the exact same gap reduction as buffs.

I already covered this. It does not end up being the same, since you now took more steps than a targeted buff or nerf would require. Which means they are not the same. It would also end up affecting everything else that isnt supposed to be affected. The only situation where a nerf can be a buff are examples like Nourish, where a nerf to the viral value would infact be a buff in several builds since it reduces viral weighting.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Ignore it? Not test there? I did test there. Like I told you in the very section you quoted, the Corpus in the lowest real SP missions produce the equivalent of lvl500 SP enemies. Why do I know this? Because I tested it and then checked my work. Everything works fine, and the missions are totally doable as long as you don't suck, it's just that you're playing in SP simulated at lvl500. This is all in my thread you apparently still haven't bothered to read despite your complaints that I won't give you specifics.

Yet you only show 3 non-endless gifs? How does it hold up in endless SP? How fast paced is it then?

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

So the power level of some of the strongest and most popular weapons in the game is justified because... Newbie MR5 players can melee their way through an easy game mode?

Uhm yes? I think that is quite obvious since that is what the developers saw fit and what ended up as part of the game, and has been part of the game now for several years. I'm not really sure what you are trying to say, or what you point is.

MR = Easy and grants X power as seen fit by devs.

Liches/Sisters = "Harder" than MR and grants X power as seen fit by devs to reflect that they are "harder" than MR tests.

Does it mean either is hard? Uhm no? But it is still part of DEs power progression and one system is more demanding than the other even if not hard. Not really a hard concept to grasp.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

They only removed it from Prime Warframes, regular Warframes didn't have any such restriction:

And that matters how exactly?

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

But now we're getting somewhere! Why do you think DE did this? They looked at Primed Warframes - the more powerful, more advanced, further progressed versions - and removed that restriction. So where's the progression from regular to Prime? It doesn't seem to have been all that important if DE got rid of it in a hotfix. Maybe this is because, like you suggest, frames aren't intended to be more or less powerful than another. Why do you think that might be? There's certainly a reason for it, no? And if you can understand this about frames, why do you have such trouble applying that idea elsewhere?

Oh lol, did you even read the notes you quoted? There were only 11 prime frames tied to a mastery rank to begin with, so it isnt DE removing the MR between normal and primes, they simply removed the MR between primes. And the reason frames dont have an MR is because like I've said they are based on the right tool for the job approach, where frames arent supposed to be more powerful than another. This does not apply to weapons outside of their classes, since there are too many "same" weapons within each class. So instead there is an incentive to use them by making some more powerful than others in a more classical "vertical" setup within each class. Now if all weapons were like frames and we had far fewer of them aswell MR could be removed since it would no longer be about power, but the task at hand. But it isnt realistic to make a weapon stand out like a frame, since they are just weapons.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I left it out because it's just not true. You're pointing to the small plateau on top of the mountain to suggest that the mountain as a whole is actually flat.

Some of Warframe is horizontal, like the powerful bits at the very tippy top. If you want an AoE weapon, then the Kuva Ogris, Kuva Bramma, Kuva Zarr, Tenet Envoy, various AoE Incarnons, etc. will all horizontally fill that role just as good as the next. They are, for the most part, sidegrades of each other.

But this does not apply to the game as a whole, where weapon progression overall remains very much vertical. Most weapons, even the sidegrades and upgrades you suggest, tend to suck and go unused compared to the very best which sit vertically above them. The four years of officially published usage statistics should make this fact obvious. If the game was "for the most part a horizontal system already", then these official figures would be for the most part... horizontal! Yet they're obviously not. This...

But it is true, since what makes those weapons stand out is not rooted in their stats, but in their actual game changing perks and mechanics. That is horizontal progression. We can use Bramma, Probo Cernos, Tonkor, Tetra, Zarr or Envoy and get roughly the same return in raw power as you say. What makes them and other picks the top is their mechanics i.e access to AoE. And it is for the most part a horizontal game, we simply have too many weapon that does the same, so the slightly more powerful version will get picked. This would stay the same even if it was fully horizontal, since at that point the most to least used would be based on damage spread, status vs crit, fire rate vs damage per shot, burst vs auto vs single and so on.

And the usage stats have nothing to do with if it is horizontal or not. It would be the same in a fully horizontal system if some weapons have a more appealing effect etc. Which is still horizontal progression. The game already shows that with frames that are not vertical in progression since they are all based on what their abilities do in the content you face. Yet they end up showing the same heat map pattern as weapons that you claim are mainly vertical. So do you suddenly imply frames are now vertical too? Yeah, Nekros Prime sure is a massive power house compared to Protea, Styanax, Baruuk or Kullervo... and Frost Prime is clearly far far weaker than Revenant or Wukong...

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Right, so like I said we're saying the same things. It's just wrong when I say it.

But we dont, since you seem to want to change other things in other ways. Because you still havent really revealed exactly what you want at all. I want the ceiling to be targetted specifically, likely best done by nerfing individual weapons. And as I mentioned in another thread, adding LoS to all AoE would also be a good start.

[Aruquae]

@SneakyErvinAre you still trying to convince the opposite side? It hasn’t worked in 20+ pages, I’m not sure it’s going to work for 20 more. 

Cmon now, reject argument, join in on my coffee cake discussion. 
Why is coffee cake called coffee cake if it has no caffeine? 

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Dude, you know so little that I’m getting kind of blindsided why you keep talking about 30-ish and below content (I apparently forgot what the level of Grendel content was and kept thinking it was 40, so that’s 10 levels lower) when a) I’m talking about the whole game outside of unbalanced Steel Path, and b) one of the points I was talking about was Arbitrations, maybe level 50, until you brought up Grendel missions and I literally agreed that our baseline survival against that level of content and below is sufficient on its own, which means we don’t need any survival mods but can slot other things (and play around with dragon keys as an option though I would hesitate to say the game is necessarily balanced for it) outside of the Grendel kissions, so like… I don’t know what you want me to say when I already acknowledged it

You miss so many points that I’m becoming less annoyed and more straight up confused as to what you’re even reading. And no, overbuilding for the content without thinking about it is not consideration, it’s accidental consideration at best and outright disruptive at worst

But I dont talk about 30-ish content. I'm talking about how easy Grendel content was when we had to do it versus level 40 mobs without mods or access to any frame released after Grendel (quite obviously heh). Meaning the majority of the Star Chart is below that level, with some planets capping out at that level or goes 5 levels beyond that. So I'm more wondering what point there is to limit your build options when there is a whole mode available that lets you build exactly how you want while brining better engagement options at the same time while playing on the same nodes?

And who are you to decide what overbuilding is? Like I said, I want to be able to go longer than a few rotations when I enter an endless, so I come prepared for that. And what is the difference if I build to kill a capture target with 1 shot in a downgraded build or one where he is 1 shot all the same with a high level build? No one else gets to touch him in either case.

Funny thing. I did some syndicate missions today solo. It made me think of your argonak build and idea of "modding for the content", which would have likely resulted in you getting disrupted and treated in an inconsiderate manner by syndicate operatives in those missions. I guess uhm DE overbuilt for their own missions. 😲

Curse those damn elitist operatives for not considering their PuG team mate(s) when making their builds!

7 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

@SneakyErvinAre you still trying to convince the opposite side? It hasn’t worked in 20+ pages, I’m not sure it’s going to work for 20 more. 

Cmon now, reject argument, join in on my coffee cake discussion. 
Why is coffee cake called coffee cake if it has no caffeine? 

I'm uh an optimist. 

Also it is called coffee cake because it is supposed to be served with coffee. Prolly some brit mumbo-jumbo invention since they have other cakes served with tea iirc. If you want a coffee cake with coffee in you could make a mocca coffee cake instead of chocolate, vanilla or what type it is you yum-yum on currently.

It's like we have "kaffe bröd" here, which practically means coffee bread, which is just whatever bun type you do and serve with coffee. Cinnamon buns are a type of "kaffe bröd" here, so are buns filled with pistachio(sp?) or nut creame or some other spice instead of cinnamon. It doesnt have to be buns either, making braided bread is also popular. Heck, we even call small cookie type things "kaffe bröd".

And here I thought americans were happy to use the same word for way too many things!

Edited February 29 by SneakyErvin

[Aruquae]

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And here I thought americans were happy to use the same word for way too many things!

Nah, anyone who speaks English will tell you English makes no sense. Scratch that… anyone who doesn’t speak English would also say that. It’s a mutual feeling. 

 

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also it is called coffee cake because it is supposed to be served with coffee. Prolly some brit mumbo-jumbo invention since they have other cakes served with tea iirc. If you want a coffee cake with coffee in you could make a mocca coffee cake instead of chocolate, vanilla or what type it is you yum-yum on currently.

But then they call creamer “creamer” as opposed to “coffee creamer.” The world makes no sense

Edited February 29 by Aruquae

[SneakyErvin]

17 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

But then they call creamer “creamer” as opposed to “coffee creamer.” The world makes no sense

It's in order to be inclusive and not discrimatory towards Tea. If it refered to itself as coffee creamer it might end up getting canceled. Not easy being a coff... I mean creamer these days.

Sadly there is a real life incident similar to that. Our old classic ice cream stick here called Nogger, a chocolate covered vanilla stick with a creamy nougat core went through something similar to that. Apparently the name Nogger wasnt/isnt a problem, but when they make a licorice version named Nogger Black it was too much for the "elite", at which point the version called Black was canceled and removed. Nogger however still exsists. You know what the most hilarious and backwards part is? The same ice cream company (GB) also has an ice cream named The 88 (88:an in swedish).

Sweden + consistancy = we are not familiar with eachother.

[PublikDomain]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I already covered this. It does not end up being the same, since you now took more steps than a targeted buff or nerf would require. Which means they are not the same.

So it's different because it's not """targeted""", and a """targeted""" buff or nerf can only take one step at a time? Is this what you're suggesting? Because if so - it's stupid. Were DE's changes to AoE weapons not """targeted""" at AoE weapons just because they've taken multiple steps like changing ammo and damage falloff mechanics? This is just pedantry.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It would also end up affecting everything else that isnt supposed to be affected.

Which would also be the case of the widespread nerfs you yourself have alluded to. Lowering the ceiling of player power would affect the experience of any player using items targeted by those nerfs, and would also affect everything else that's currently compared against those items. Even the items not directly changed would still become stronger in comparison. Only wrong when I say it.

Though I've reminded you before and I guess need to keep reminding you: I'm not just talking about balancing weapons, here. I'm talking about balancing the game as a whole. It's the same as how DE once affected the entire game by changing how the scaling formulas worked when they implemented their S-Curve. This affected everything, from weapons to enemy friendly fire to pets to abilities to Amps to Archwing, which is what it was supposed to do. Likewise, yes, the things I suggest would affect everything. Everything is supposed to be affected. That's the whole point! This is not a problem, this is the goal.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Does it mean either is hard? Uhm no? But it is still part of DEs power progression and one system is more demanding than the other even if not hard. Not really a hard concept to grasp.

What's hard for me to grasp is why you think this "power progression" is so important if reaching the higher ends of it isn't hard or demanding in the slightest. Like I've said before, there does seem to be a power progression at place. I'm not disputing that. What I'm disputing is this importance you're placing on it, and your use of this short "power progression" as an excuse to leave the rest of the game's content and mechanics in the garbage. This is also why DE's removal of MR restrictions from prime frames matters. It doesn't seem that DE actually care all that much about this "power progression" if they'll drop big parts of it in a random hotfix.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And the reason frames dont have an MR is because like I've said they are based on the right tool for the job approach, where frames arent supposed to be more powerful than another. This does not apply to weapons outside of their classes, since there are too many "same" weapons within each class. So instead there is an incentive to use them by making some more powerful than others in a more classical "vertical" setup within each class. Now if all weapons were like frames and we had far fewer of them aswell MR could be removed since it would no longer be about power, but the task at hand. But it isnt realistic to make a weapon stand out like a frame, since they are just weapons.

You've made a distinction between weapons and frames, but I don't see how this is based on anything but an arbitrary feeling of yours. Is it having multiple things within the same "class"? There are many frames which likewise do the same things within each "class". Loki, Ivara, Ash, and Octavia are all stealth frames. Rhino, Hildryn, Revenant, and Nezha are all tanks. Harrow, Trinity, Oberon, and Wisp can all heal and provide buffs. Is there some threshold before which items within the same "class" can be equal? What number of items is that? If the 8 sniper rifles we have are too much of the "same" within their "class", then what about the dozens of frames that can all strip armor, or CC, or heal their teammates? Are those "classes" not equally crowded? If weapons are "just weapons", then frames are "just frames", pets are "just pets", and Amps are "just Amps".

You also mention an "incentive to use them" when talking about things in a vertical "setup", but that means there's also an incentive not to use the other things lower down on the list. For example, like how your ingame profile shows that you've somehow never used the base Braton or Dera. What incentive do you have to acquire and use those guns? If power progression is so important to you, what incentive do you have to go backwards in your progression and get these? Meanwhile a horizontal "setup" produces no particular incentive to use or, importantly, not use any given thing. Because there's no incentive to not use something, that means there's also an incentive to explore and try everything. For example, like how there's an incentive to explore every frame because all frames (theoretically) stand out and are good. The same could and should be true of weapons, pets, mechanics, damage types, etc.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But it is true, since what makes those weapons stand out is not rooted in their stats, but in their actual game changing perks and mechanics. That is horizontal progression. We can use Bramma, Probo Cernos, Tonkor, Tetra, Zarr or Envoy and get roughly the same return in raw power as you say. What makes them and other picks the top is their mechanics i.e access to AoE.

What makes them stand out amongst each other is not rooted in their stats, so they are for the most part horizontal, yes. But their stats still set them apart from other AoE weapons. Where is the Penta in that list? Where is the Simulor? Where was the Torid before its stats got buffed out the wazoo? Where is the Lenz? The Alternox? These all have access to AoE mechanics, but not the same raw power. This is a vertical progression. These weapons suck and are unpopular in comparison to the AoE weapons which have so much more raw power.

Like I said, you're pointing to the tiny flat bit on the top of the mountain and claiming that the entire mountain is flat. Maybe from your perspective the flat part is all you can see.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And the usage stats have nothing to do with if it is horizontal or not. It would be the same in a fully horizontal system if some weapons have a more appealing effect etc. Which is still horizontal progression. The game already shows that with frames that are not vertical in progression since they are all based on what their abilities do in the content you face. Yet they end up showing the same heat map pattern as weapons that you claim are mainly vertical. So do you suddenly imply frames are now vertical too? Yeah, Nekros Prime sure is a massive power house compared to Protea, Styanax, Baruuk or Kullervo... and Frost Prime is clearly far far weaker than Revenant or Wukong...

How don't they? In a theoretical perfectly horizontal system, all weapons would be equally powerful and what makes a weapon appealing would be different for every person. There might be some variation, but not much. In a theoretical perfectly vertical system, all weapons would evenly progress upwards in power and terminate in a single most powerful thing. There might still be some variation in usage between the top few things which are still fairly similar, but not much. And it's the latter we see in the weapon usage stats: some variation between the top few things, but most of the rest goes unused.

Regarding frames, well, look for yourself:

See how at higher MRs combined frame usage kind of flattens out? There are still some differences, which is to be expected since like you seem to understand even Warframes aren't entirely horizontal, but it's still overall pretty flat. Despite the few outliers which inevitably receive reworks, most frames are actually pretty evenly good and hold pretty even popularity - at least compared to how skewed weapons are.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

How does it hold up in endless SP? How fast paced is it then?

I just told you how it holds up? Fighting lvl500 SP Corpus - which currently takes several hours of endless SP to get to - holds up fine. It's not the same "fast paced" (read: pathetically easy) that we have today, but unless you think that SP should only be a loot pinata for Space Mom's Most Specialest Boy to wail on, I think having enemies that don't fold like cardboard several hours deep into the game's challenge mode is fine. Isn't that the point of the mode? And if you're gonna be mad that enemies are harder to kill, wouldn't the same be true if, like you yourself suggest, the same ceiling is lowered with nerfs?

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I want the ceiling to be targetted specifically, likely best done by nerfing individual weapons.

And I too want the ceiling to be targeted specifically, likely best done by nerfing how weapons scale while also nerfing enemy scaling at the same time.

Same goal, different approach, you just have it in your head that I'm the devil for saying it in a different way.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yet you only show 3 non-endless gifs?

There's more examples in that thread including all the specifics you kept asking for yet still haven't looked at yet. Maybe go look?

"You can lead a horse to water" or something.

Edited February 29 by PublikDomain

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, Aruquae said:

@SneakyErvinAre you still trying to convince the opposite side? It hasn’t worked in 20+ pages, I’m not sure it’s going to work for 20 more. 

Hey, that's my line!

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

9 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Hey, that's my line!

Honestly that line has been repeated several times in this thread 

[Darvahoya]

I'm coming into this discussion late and have only briefly scanned the comments. I don't have any answers but I do have some observations I will share at the risk of collapsing this wave. It's been pointed out that the cancel culture of eliminating things that some consider annoying is a dangerous path. The ability to accept others regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation or other personal preference has been plaguing mankind since the earliest stages of our evolution. Being willing to accept the potential negative effects of stupid product names for the targets of our past evils is not cancel culture, it's a form of accepting responsibility for things we've done to create these sensitivities.

The second thought is that Warframe is just a game, it's here for entertainment and should not be anything of major consequence in our lives. Other squad members doing things that don't align with my play goals happens in my missions from time to time but I have found a simple solution that works for me, it's to remember: "live and let live". If this doesn't work then perhaps listen to Ordis the next time he reminds you to take time for yourself.

[PR1D3]

1 minute ago, Darvahoya said:

I'm coming into this discussion late and have only briefly scanned the comments. I don't have any answers but I do have some observations I will share at the risk of collapsing this wave. It's been pointed out that the cancel culture of eliminating things that some consider annoying is a dangerous path. The ability to accept others regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation or other personal preference has been plaguing mankind since the earliest stages of our evolution. Being willing to accept the potential negative effects of stupid product names for the targets of our past evils is not cancel culture, it's a form of accepting responsibility for things we've done to create these sensitivities.

The second thought is that Warframe is just a game, it's here for entertainment and should not be anything of major consequence in our lives. Other squad members doing things that don't align with my play goals happens in my missions from time to time but I have found a simple solution that works for me, it's to remember: "live and let live". If this doesn't work then perhaps listen to Ordis the next time he reminds you to take time for yourself.

but yeah shallow altruism is shallow.  

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

19 minutes ago, Darvahoya said:

I'm coming into this discussion late and have only briefly scanned the comments. I don't have any answers but I do have some observations I will share at the risk of collapsing this wave. It's been pointed out that the cancel culture of eliminating things that some consider annoying is a dangerous path. The ability to accept others regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation or other personal preference has been plaguing mankind since the earliest stages of our evolution. Being willing to accept the potential negative effects of stupid product names for the targets of our past evils is not cancel culture, it's a form of accepting responsibility for things we've done to create these sensitivities.

The second thought is that Warframe is just a game, it's here for entertainment and should not be anything of major consequence in our lives. Other squad members doing things that don't align with my play goals happens in my missions from time to time but I have found a simple solution that works for me, it's to remember: "live and let live". If this doesn't work then perhaps listen to Ordis the next time he reminds you to take time for yourself.

WITAF was this

[ClockworkDirge]

 

I don’t know why I spent several days reading through all this, but it did give me a good chuckle a few times… and make me want coffee cake.

[Merkranire]

8 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Wouldn’t that be half the game then? Steel Path has always been a part of the game, especially now that the Devs are really pushing for levels that high. 

Steel Path was introduced to be a place for players who were all dressed up in power with nowhere to go. It’s part of the game insomuch that you look at it, go “What esoteric knowledge can I draw upon to craft builds that utterly break the game”, then take those builds to a place that breaks back and infinitely scales; it’s not meant to be the default gameplay and it’s not balanced. It’s a testing grounds with a handful of rewards, designed to kill builds even while idiots complain that it’s killing their builds and they want to bring more options to the mode designed to limit what you can bring. The rest of the game is for the stuff that doesn’t work but is still worth using for reasons, starting from the modless baseline. The game is designed to enable the use of the stuff we earn, and SP is only part of the picture

 

8 hours ago, Aruquae said:

There’s a fine line in getting a build that’s perfect for specific content that doesn’t leak outside of that window. It’s like cake, you make too much batter for a “medium sized cake” and end up having it spill over into what’s considered a large sized cake. Mmm yes, my analogies are something. I want cake now

It’s not that fine, stop inventing problems. There’s a point in the scaling of enemies somewhere between level 30-ish and 100-ish (I can’t remember exactly where; I think there’s an S curve-looking graph somewhere) that’s steep, but even then a build can go a range of like 20 levels (maybe further depending on synergy with kit and how the whole kit matches with the enemies and content), and then at the end the steep part of the curve the scaling becomes less dramatic and the range that a build can go is larger.

8 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Anyways, this is getting old. Tbf this got old like 20 pages ago. Are you really going to stay doomed to write walls of  texts to people you don’t agree with?

It got old long before this topic even started, where I’d jump into a multiplayer match and get saddled with a bunch of players who solo the multiplayer portion.

6 hours ago, Aruquae said:

@SneakyErvinAre you still trying to convince the opposite side? It hasn’t worked in 20+ pages, I’m not sure it’s going to work for 20 more. 

Convince me of what?? That Ervin the Destroyer is an innocent who accidentally tumbled into a mission and bull-in-a-chinashop flopped around and everything died and Ervin does everything while I leech and they’re not at fault because the game gives them the option to take higher-level builds lower while I’m exercising the game’s design around using more than just a few builds in content that’s designed around letting me do so?

Oh do go on

Edited February 29 by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But I dont talk about 30-ish content. I'm talking about how easy Grendel content was when we had to do it versus level 40 mobs without mods or access to any frame released after Grendel (quite obviously heh). Meaning the majority of the Star Chart is below that level, with some planets capping out at that level or goes 5 levels beyond that. So I'm more wondering what point there is to limit your build options when there is a whole mode available that lets you build exactly how you want while brining better engagement options at the same time while playing on the same nodes?

I’m still lost why you’re talking about that range like it’s a definitive thing. At the upper end, around 40ish (if not a little earlier) and particularly against enemies that do double damage, it starts getting trickier and you start to find what modless combinations by default mix and match well and which ones struggle, but again, the game only scales higher; we’ve got Railjack content and open world bounties and Lich hunting and Arbitrations and Sorties and all the new stuff starting at 50-ish and a myriad of things. Touching into 30ish content, content that’s meant to be on doable side with a modless loadout or whatever non-survival or non-damage mods we may want to equip is a portion of what we do, and certainly isn’t the whole game

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Funny thing. I did some syndicate missions today solo. It made me think of your argonak build and idea of "modding for the content", which would have likely resulted in you getting disrupted and treated in an inconsiderate manner by syndicate operatives in those missions. I guess uhm DE overbuilt for their own missions. 😲

What.

Edited February 29 by Merkranire

[Aruquae]

1 hour ago, Merkranire said:

Oh do go on

The aggression, you didn't even join in on my coffee cake discussion
The message sent to Ervin also applies to you, 20 more pages isn't going to change anything. At this point this is just entertainment

[PublikDomain]

5 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

The aggression, you didn't even join in on my coffee cake discussion
The message sent to Ervin also applies to you, 20 more pages isn't going to change anything. At this point this is just entertainment

My paternal grandmother's secret was to add instant coffee to her chocolate cake icing. I would say that this makes it a coffee cake, no?

One of the interesting things about internet arguments is that it's often futile to try and change the mind of the person you're talking to. Instead it can be more about convincing bystanders and the undecided, which can be valuable too. But entertainment is a fine reason to have a discussion as well.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

9 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Are you really going to stay doomed to write walls of  texts to people you don’t agree with?

At least this thread reminded me that coffee cake exists. Toodaloo 

 

Well, I think there is a styles clash present, and so its causing friction and conflict, and different people have different reactions and actions to this. Though depending on their intent or style, you can either have resolution. or escalation. Resolution doesn't necessarily mean agreement either, since many often agree to disagree, and that in itself is a type of resolution. The funny thing is, you can also have situations, where people might agree, but they can also continue  to escalate with each other depending on their style or expression of views. Like I personally tend to think you are good at resolving conflict, because you are pretty chill, and have a good sense of humour, and use sarcasm well, on occasion. 

Like I wouldn't want to speak on anyones behalf, since I won't claim to know a persons views better than themselves, but one participant in the conversation tends to project a little (and to be clear, thats not an inherently bad thing, sometimes people just use the term with negative or hostile intent). All people will tend to assume a little, project a little, go off intuition a little and so on. The other participant though tends to speak, well stylistically differently. They describe general attitudes and why they might exist, but thats not necessarily the same as insisting, or even endorsing that sort of behaviour. So one will create a situation where preferences clash, where as the other doesn't necessarily impose their particular approach on others... Except they also tend to not... really address that point in the other. Possibly for two reasons. The replies are so long, maybe they are overlooking them, and so they address them implicitly in other ways. Or maybe they don't think those points are are necessarily good faith. Could be other reasons though too. They could also find it accurate to their character though. 

So in short, you have one person explaining reasons and motivations behind some players behaviour, preferences, play styles, broadly but also often using specific examples. With another persons created dichotomy between conflict of styles and the idea that people with different styles attitudes towards those that affirm and agree, and those that do not, and the idea that thus conflict must be had, or that by having such styles, it inherently carries a rejection or lack of acceptance of other styles. Which isn't necessarily true, and may not even be true as far as the other participant. Can be broadly accurate to some situations though and people. 

For me, personally its a teeny tiny bit frustrating. Just a tiny bit, because I think many participants have made some singular excellent points, and some, that in context or in a vacuum, I might agree with personally. For example, the idea of it being nice, to be considerate to your fellow players preferences. Including around balance and not potentially robbing others of getting to enjoy the game and content, which seems to echo one participants viewpoint. At the same time, given the nature of Warframe and many of its intended design and appeal, there is a lot of the game, thats for a lot of different people. Its a lot to expect and assume that every player have the ability to know the preferences, playstyles and tastes of every other player to avoid potential conflict as far as how to build their Warframes and arsenal around perceived "difficulty". So a player just coming off 5 solo Netracells, doing a Lith Capture with the same build. Is that a bad thing if they kill the enemies fast? Even if their are weaker players with them? What if those "weaker players" are also rushing, because they just want the rewards faster too? What if they want other players who help them go faster? Individuals can't always know every scenario and each individual may have slightly different ideas as well. Or hold to the idea, that no one else is really setting out to "ruin the enjoyment" of other players. So I can also agree with that, which seems to echo the other persons viewpoint. Which some aspects the other participant seems to acknowledge at points too, hence the idea of the "filter", just that, that can also have some issues, and may also not be necessarily practical. 

More importantly though... I was never really a coffee cake sort of person. Then again I am not really a coffee person either. Though as I got older, I also stopped being a cake person as well. I still like them, but more on cheat days. When I had stronger opinions around cakes though, I tended to like sweet cakes more. Red velvet cake? Caramel cakes? Lemon cakes? Dessert cakes as well. Cheesecakes? That being said, I also never judged people over Coffee Cake either. Not that I imagine you would get hostile over Coffee Cake. Well unless that is secretly your specific trigger point. In which case I apologise in advance. I am but a cake simpleton... Now hip hop on the other hand... (I liked this threads brief Hip Hop arc TBH, I wished it lasted longer). 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

6 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

My paternal grandmother's secret was to add instant coffee to her chocolate cake icing. I would say that this makes it a coffee cake, no?

 

The cake connoisseurs will be malding and in hysterics over this, but I personally think your grandmother is a visionary! 

[Merkranire]

38 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

The aggression, you didn't even join in on my coffee cake discussion
The message sent to Ervin also applies to you, 20 more pages isn't going to change anything. At this point this is just entertainment

I don’t feel like coffee cakes, I feel like either getting a super simple filter to stop this from happening in the first place, or better-learned players capable of actually changing something about the way they play like the game either asks or sometimes forces us to do.

Because right now I’m capable of changing to play on the level of you lot, running around without a care in the world but still mission completing like a semi-AFK pro, but the reverse does not hold true and people have been arguing about how it’s simply out of their hands when it very much is not and choosing alternatively is a completely reasonable thing to do since the game not only encourages it but sometimes straight up forces it upon us because the playerbase ask for one thing while building for and expecting another and then the monkey’s paw of “This is what you want, isn’t it?” curls another finger

Like seriously, all this talk about horizontal progression and gameplay, and people are fighting against the very notion of it existing for those who choose it right now because I guess they’ve tied their entire Warframe identity to the idea of “The best form of CC is death”, regardless of how much needs to be sacrificed to maintain the concept while they actively lament that there’s only a few things worth using in an absolutely eye-rolling display of cognitive dissonance. And the only reason any sort of fight exists in the first place is because it’s forced upon players who would rather it not be, some of who actively ask for a fight but are using some vague idea that apparently isn’t akin to what’s already possible as their concept of what that looks like, and once more the monkey’s paw of “You could have chosen it on your own terms, now you’re being forced to choose it” appears

Edited February 29 by Merkranire

[(XBOX)Timidobserver]

For me the actual issue is the AFK timer. If they want to let 1 frame kill every enemy as soon as it spawns, fine let me go afk. 

[TeaHands]

Man, this argument over Pub Mission Etiquette has legitimately gone on almost everyday for a month. Confusingly impressive.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Timidobserver said:

For me the actual issue is the AFK timer. If they want to let 1 frame kill every enemy as soon as it spawns, fine let me go afk. 

You have to move 5 meters within 5 minutes. That's pretty good. You can go get a beer and come back, move your character then walk away for 2 min etc.

[ReddyDisco]

3 hours ago, TeaHands said:

Man, this argument over Pub Mission Etiquette has legitimately gone on almost everyday for a month. Confusingly impressive.

people with far too much time on their hands