The 2023 usage stats are out: Revenant on the nerfing block

[tucker_d_dawg]

7 hours ago, quxier said:

spam Contagion. Now it's USELESS.

🤣yeah its totally trash now..nothing to see here..don't mind the millions of aoe dmg spam you can still do...move along...🤣

[quxier]

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Other frame's immortality are not the best:

- Inaros - big hp bag, no shield gate, so you can even get "one shot" with strong enemy

- Styanax + augment requires lot of energy and it's just status immunity + additional health

- Nidus has unding passive but you need stacks first, they reset after death or Grasp focus ability

-  Shield gate meta needs you to spam abilities to be immortal, as shields are not restored when getting hit

Expand  

You missed out the elephants in the room which are Rhino, Yareli and Nezha, all of which only required pressing one button.

And Rhino with augment, if stacked with enough overguard, can nuke the entire room including SP level cap demolyst and acolyte. 

If other immortality are "not the best", mesmer skin is definitely also not "the best". For argument sake, Rev also needs rolling guard to cover the tiny window of re-casting mesmer skin to achieve true immortality.

Are those 3 really immortal? Or do the just have +x additional "health"?

51 minutes ago, tucker_d_dawg said:

8 hours ago, quxier said:

spam Contagion. Now it's USELESS.

🤣yeah its totally trash now..nothing to see here..don't mind the millions of aoe dmg spam you can still do...move along...🤣

Try this in tiny room, low ceiling etc. You do big damage in certain situation with clunky keys. On other hand other stuff just work, like armor strip -> damage.

[RichardKam]

1小时前 , quxier 说:

Are those 3 really immortal? Or do the just have +x additional "health"?

Then Revenant is not really immortal as well, he only tanks the first x hits. 

Anyway, I am sure you are right. 

[EpicPierogiSheep]

On 2024-02-01 at 7:21 AM, Slayer-. said:

Have you played Revenant in high level content I've tried and find it easier to play with others frames, I can hold 16 mesmur stacks and in high level Steel Path content they are gone in an instance with that many bullets coming at you, this 1 second protection only makes it slightly better, I seem to spend all my time using the 2nd skill constantly.

Only time I use Revenant is for Archon Hunts.

Firstly, only 16 is not that much. At most, I can hold around 24 and I am sure there are builds with even more.
Secondly, are you using his other abilities? Remember to use his 1st on stunned enemies as then the energy cost is free. Give it a second or so and that enthrall status will literally spread to every enemy in the area. The enemies won't even be shooting at you as they will constantly be busy killing each other. If you want to nuke groups of enemies, then use your Reave on the enthralled enemies to instakill them and replenish mesmer charges. Bonus tip: Reaving allies with mesmer skin on will donate some of your mesmer charges to them. Another bonus tip: Thralls have a very high aggression rating for enemies, so enemies would rather be shooting thralls than you, useful for defence as well.

[EpicPierogiSheep]

On 2024-02-01 at 4:15 AM, DrivaMain said:

I suspected Revenant usage goes up because of how easy it is to get the prime version compared to its regular variant. Unlike Wukong, Revenant isn't too disruptive to the gameplay of other players in my experience encountering its users in public games; it can't nuke that well (Danse Macabre falls off short in Steel Path), compared to Wukong where you can give the clone a 10-meter AoE infinite ammo funny boom gun while you stand there doing nothing (this was before the Nerf of course). 

DE doesn't seem to be triggered to easy immortality due to how many tools we have to reach Revenant's mesmer skin levels. But if Revenant can clear rooms effortlessly thus ruining other people's horde-clearing experience? Yeah, that will get it on the chopping block for sure.

True XD Rev prime is much easier to get that farming normal Rev. Just adding: In SP and above, nuke small groups of enemies with thrall + Reave combo, not with 4th

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, quxier said:

Before you could, afair, spam Contagion. Now it's USELESS.

9 hours ago, quxier said:

Try this in tiny room, low ceiling etc. You do big damage in certain situation with clunky keys. On other hand other stuff just work, like armor strip -> damage.

Useless is an extremely extreme exaggeration. It has been used extensively since the nerfs that removed spam casting on it, which was years and years ago. It still wipes out whatever it hits (or doesnt hit for that matter). The latest nerf did zero to the arcane if you used it as intended. And using it in tiny rooms is not exactly a problem, the main problem is using it near walls due to wall latch, which would end up in the same situation with your "simple solution".

10 hours ago, RichardKam said:

For argument sake, Rev also needs rolling guard to cover the tiny window of re-casting mesmer skin to achieve true immortality.

No... just no... no you really dont. You are guaranteed 1 second invulnerability from losing a charge, then you are also guaranteed whatever seconds you gain from his natural shields of 925. Which would give you around a 3 second window to recast it in total. So he needs rolling guard as much or less than Rhino and others, which is pretty much not at all or less than not at all. He used to need it before he got invulnerability and the gate was a static 1.33 sec thing. But nowdays, even if he happens to get scrambed or nullied he still has a long ass shield gate.

 

[AntonyBreamPrime]

For those saying you need to look at the usage of the prime and normal frame together to get the "real" picture.

I disagree when it comes to the frames you choose in the tutorial. 

You have to separate them to get the "real" picture.

Just look at the Heatmap Per Mastery Rank %

 

APB

[quxier]

15 hours ago, RichardKam said:

16 hours ago, quxier said:

Are those 3 really immortal? Or do the just have +x additional "health"?

Then Revenant is not really immortal as well, he only tanks the first x hits. 

That's why I like about Mesmer skin - it's reliable (except Nully or toxic). You know how many "hits" you can take. It's the closest to immortality we can get, imho.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

16 hours ago, quxier said:

Try this in tiny room, low ceiling etc. You do big damage in certain situation with clunky keys. On other hand other stuff just work, like armor strip -> damage.

Useless is an extremely extreme exaggeration.

Exaggerated? Yeah. Extreme exaggeration? Nope.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It has been used extensively since the nerfs that removed spam casting on it, which was years and years ago.

Ok, but do you have any stats on Exodia contagion usage? Because "used extensively" would says so.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The latest nerf did zero to the arcane if you used it as intended.

That's the problem. How it's intended to use? Once a while when you want to rocked jump into moon and kill some enemies?

 

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And using it in tiny rooms is not exactly a problem

Yeah, because hitting walls is not a problem.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

the main problem is using it near walls due to wall latch, which would end up in the same situation with your "simple solution".

What do you mean?

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

19 hours ago, RichardKam said:

For argument sake, Rev also needs rolling guard to cover the tiny window of re-casting mesmer skin to achieve true immortality.

No... just no... no you really dont. You are guaranteed 1 second invulnerability from losing a charge, then you are also guaranteed whatever seconds you gain from his natural shields of 925. Which would give you around a 3 second window to recast it in total. So he needs rolling guard as much or less than Rhino and others, which is pretty much not at all or less than not at all. He used to need it before he got invulnerability and the gate was a static 1.33 sec thing. But nowdays, even if he happens to get scrambed or nullied he still has a long ass shield gate.

Enemies won't wait for you to stand still to use your last stack. You may get that 3 seconds in perfect situations but otherwise it will be les than those 3 seconds.

[Waeleto]

Instead of nerfing what's popular, buff what's unpopular *cough* caliban/loki/oberon/yareilo/sevagoth *cough*

[ShogunGunshow]

Revenant's Mesmer Skin changes were an obvious case of 'not thinking through enough.' Or, maybe they did realize what it would lead to, but since an offer for $$$ for him was coming up, maybe it was decided that making him OP for a while was fine if it meant more sales.

Either way, an ability where you can just be immortal is generally pretty powerful even when channeled; the fact that Revenant just gets to no-thought it and now also slap Nexus onto himself to go completely non-interactive and can literally just set a macro to push one button every ~20-30 seconds and be immmortal to the Steel Path is just dumb on top of it. 

Like, I know Warframe is a power fantasy game, and I, too, like my survivability. But even when I'm playing something absurdly tanky like Gara, I still want to at least THEORETICALLY have a possibility of losing, you know?

[(XBOX)Player244024418]

On 2024-02-01 at 8:42 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Kullervo are just as strong at not giving a S#&$ about incoming damage

Agree. I literally just posted a comment about kullervo in netracells outputting a ridonkulous amount of damage with melee. 

I main revenant (usually lol) and his kit is good but he is a manual player. You gotta go beat on enemies. Like Rocky Balboa. His mesmer skin is necessary as reave is terrible (winding up somewhere else on the map is terrible). I see revenant as a toe to toe, fist to fist fighter. Mesmer skin is needed. 

Mesmer skin is not invincibility either. Ive been one shot by archons, etc before. But it sure helps as his kit does need something for survivability. I subsumed roar on his four in the approach that the best defense is a better offense. 

[Monolake]

On 2024-02-01 at 7:40 PM, quxier said:

Other frame's immortality are not the best:

- Inaros - big hp bag, no shield gate, so you can even get "one shot" with strong enemy

- Styanax + augment requires lot of energy and it's just status immunity + additional health

- Nidus has unding passive but you need stacks first, they reset after death or Grasp focus ability

-  Shield gate meta needs you to spam abilities to be immortal, as shields are not restored when getting hit

...

Yeah any other form of protective skill is limited in many ways to balance it out, and other invulnerability skills have massive drawbacks - ei Valk Hysteria is limited to melee, Nidus has to work long and hard for his stacks etc. But Revenant? - just press one button for god mode  AND it can apply to whole team - what was DE smoking?
Originally Revenant was balanced by the fact that some enemies just couldnt be stunned when they attacked mesmer skin so they shredded skin charges in few seconds, it was still great skill but not super reliable, it demanded player attention and then you could take Rev to lvlcap, it was fair. Pablo removed that drawback and made it into a legal cheat. For the whole team. ...

Remember Trinity? the 'support' frame - she only gives pathetic 75% DR to the team. Why? - because she used to be like Revenant now - her Blessing used to give invulnerability to the whole team, then DE realized (with the help of player feedback here) it was like a cheat removing any danger and challenge crippling design and gameplay and nerfed it (twice). But some ~9 years later Pablo made the same mistake creating team-wide cheat from Revenant. Baffling.

Meanwhile any other form of 'op' protection like Styanax stacking oveguard to no limit or topaz shards restoring shields from 0 instantly gets nerfed - while Revenant exists? where is any balance and common sense at all?

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Exaggerated? Yeah. Extreme exaggeration? Nope.

It is very much extreme since the arcane is quite the opposite of useless. I mean ffs it 1HKs some of the toughest mobs in the game without breaking a sweat.

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Ok, but do you have any stats on Exodia contagion usage? Because "used extensively" would says so.

The reason it was fixed/nerfed quite recently should be enough of an indication of use since the actual old nerf hit it.

12 hours ago, quxier said:

That's the problem. How it's intended to use? Once a while when you want to rocked jump into moon and kill some enemies?

I'm refering to the interaction description on the bloody arcane. Not the hidden activation that was recently "fixed" which produced more damage.

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Yeah, because hitting walls is not a problem.

Exactly, it isnt.

12 hours ago, quxier said:

What do you mean?

Do you uhm really need to ask that when we talk about a trigger that invloves having to aim i.e the same interaction as latching onto a wall if you are too close to it in the air? Like... really... you ask? OK I'll answer. You stand close to a wall, you 2x jump in order to use contagion, you hit RMB (or whatever aim button it is on a controller) and you latch onto the wall and instead of throwing the arcane you end up doing a melee manouver down from the wall you just latched onto. Have you ever even used the arcane you claim is "useless"? These are things you should know if you've actually used it.

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Enemies won't wait for you to stand still to use your last stack. You may get that 3 seconds in perfect situations but otherwise it will be les than those 3 seconds.

That argument makes zero sense. If you recast freely before the last stack falls you still have near 2 seconds of invulnerability from your always maxed shields. And what "enemies won't wait for you to stand still" means I have no clue about. So they dont wait... soooo they uhm... continue to shoot you. OK... sooooo that means those enemies will trigger your last stack and give you that extra second no matter what. What exactly is it they are supposed to wait for in order to trigger that "perfect situations" of yours? It is when you do not wait that you get less than the 3 seconds, but you still always have 2 seconds in those cases and Mesmer is far far far from a 2 second cast skill. It was possible to manage it even under the old gate system where he had 1.33 seconds, even before the stack loss immunity was added.

So no idea what you actually try to say or argue here since again it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Do you play Rev at all? Have you ever touched the frame?

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Player244024418 said:

Agree. I literally just posted a comment about kullervo in netracells outputting a ridonkulous amount of damage with melee. 

I main revenant (usually lol) and his kit is good but he is a manual player. You gotta go beat on enemies. Like Rocky Balboa. His mesmer skin is necessary as reave is terrible (winding up somewhere else on the map is terrible). I see revenant as a toe to toe, fist to fist fighter. Mesmer skin is needed. 

Mesmer skin is not invincibility either. Ive been one shot by archons, etc before. But it sure helps as his kit does need something for survivability. I subsumed roar on his four in the approach that the best defense is a better offense. 

Yeah I think the problem with Rev is if they nerf Mesmer as it is now his kit wont provide him anything that makes him stand out. And people that act as if his immortality through mesmer skin is new are either new to the game, to Rev or both. He's always been immortal, more so than he is now even, it is just that his old setup wasnt designed with SP in mind, where the density is so thick. Right now he needs to rebuff after roughly as many seconds as he has charges, or well slightly further in between rebuffs than that, but still. In normal content and in arbitrations etc. before SP was introduced, he could go full rotations without ever having to rebuff since enemies were fewer, so less random shots that would hit him and so on. And you could also Enthrall and Reave to keep it up. The recent buffs to his Mesmer Skin did nothing in content below SP, since it lasts just as long in there now as it did before.

I practically stopped maining Rev due to SP, since it was too much rebuffing back then because the enemies ate your skin in a matter of seconds. And aslong as there are frames with far higher damage output along with either fully passive tanking or it weaved into normal gameplay, nerfing Rev would make no sense. Even my Dagath is built in a way where tanking is passive and not given much thought as I play. As opposed to when I play Rev, where I actually need to monitor his stacks and rebuff accordingly as a seperate part of his gameplay. Dagath just casts and kills and her tanking is at the maximum potential it can be at all times.

33 minutes ago, Monolake said:

AND it can apply to whole team - what was DE smoking?

I've actually dropped out of groups due to that #*!%ing augment since it completely screws up builds. One of the worst and most intrusive augments ever made. And it doesnt even work on the things you actually want it to work on when playing Rev.

Edited February 3 by SneakyErvin

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

On 2024-02-01 at 8:40 AM, quxier said:

It's like "roll a dice". One frames are "powerful" and other have "bad abilities". It's like 2 different people creating them.

ps. sometimes it's not that extreme

I doubt it. People use shields more than hp nowadays.

It's just it works (his immortality) on demand (just need some energy). You press button and except Nulliies, toxic and few enemies you are immortal for some time.

 

Other frame's immortality are not the best:

- Inaros - big hp bag, no shield gate, so you can even get "one shot" with strong enemy

- Styanax + augment requires lot of energy and it's just status immunity + additional health

- Nidus has unding passive but you need stacks first, they reset after death or Grasp focus ability

-  Shield gate meta needs you to spam abilities to be immortal, as shields are not restored when getting hit

Maybe they decide for themselves that this youtube guy talking right? Haha.

So... let's make him vulnerable to enemeis that we need to be aware of as they are dungersous. The enemies that are in larger quantities in "end game". That makes pretty reliable ability to useless "perk".

To be honest immortality shouldn't be issue if it's like in warframe - stack X items and you do Y damage or take Z damage without dying.

Revenant literally has an Overshield effect from killed Thralls and has Shields in general, I'm referring to Eximus Attacks ignoring Mesmer Skin but not bullets, a lot like Limbo.

You'd want to obviously buff other aspects of his kit before messing with Mesmer Skin, but if other things are going to be buffed, Mesmer needs to have some type of vulnerability so you can justify those changes.

[quxier]

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2024-02-03 at 3:06 AM, quxier said:

Exaggerated? Yeah. Extreme exaggeration? Nope.

It is very much extreme since the arcane is quite the opposite of useless. I mean ffs it 1HKs some of the toughest mobs in the game without breaking a sweat.

Mk1 braton can kill stuff in Steel path but no one would call this weapon good. You kill 1 or few mobs at one time using Exodia but other methods do it faster. For example with decent weapon and armor strip I can kill a lot.

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2024-02-03 at 3:06 AM, quxier said:

Ok, but do you have any stats on Exodia contagion usage? Because "used extensively" would says so.

The reason it was fixed/nerfed quite recently should be enough of an indication of use since the actual old nerf hit it.

Really? Just because it has some weird heavy slide in air combination that dealt massive damage doesn't mean it was used extensively. DE sometimes nerf/change something for some "reasons" - doesn't mean it's powerful enough so it has been used a lot.

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2024-02-03 at 3:06 AM, quxier said:

That's the problem. How it's intended to use? Once a while when you want to rocked jump into moon and kill some enemies?

I'm refering to the interaction description on the bloody arcane. Not the hidden activation that was recently "fixed" which produced more damage.

So that's the problem. The intended use is just bad. Nerfs changes how we use it if we don't do some crazy maneuver to get some crazy damage.

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2024-02-03 at 3:06 AM, quxier said:

Yeah, because hitting walls is not a problem.

Exactly, it isnt.

When I slam my head then it hurts. I think it's a problem. I don't know about you.

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2024-02-03 at 3:06 AM, quxier said:

What do you mean?

Do you uhm really need to ask that when we talk about a trigger that invloves having to aim i.e the same interaction as latching onto a wall if you are too close to it in the air? Like... really... you ask? OK I'll answer. You stand close to a wall, you 2x jump in order to use contagion, you hit RMB (or whatever aim button it is on a controller) and you latch onto the wall and instead of throwing the arcane you end up doing a melee manouver down from the wall you just latched onto. Have you ever even used the arcane you claim is "useless"? These are things you should know if you've actually used it.

I know what "wall latch/attack instead of throwing Exodia" problem is. I don't understand this part:

On 2024-02-02 at 3:49 PM, SneakyErvin said:

which would end up in the same situation with your "simple solution".

 

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2024-02-03 at 3:06 AM, quxier said:

Enemies won't wait for you to stand still to use your last stack. You may get that 3 seconds in perfect situations but otherwise it will be les than those 3 seconds.

That argument makes zero sense. If you recast freely before the last stack falls you still have near 2 seconds of invulnerability from your always maxed shields. And what "enemies won't wait for you to stand still" means I have no clue about. So they dont wait... soooo they uhm... continue to shoot you. OK... sooooo that means those enemies will trigger your last stack and give you that extra second no matter what. What exactly is it they are supposed to wait for in order to trigger that "perfect situations" of yours? It is when you do not wait that you get less than the 3 seconds, but you still always have 2 seconds in those cases and Mesmer is far far far from a 2 second cast skill. It was possible to manage it even under the old gate system where he had 1.33 seconds, even before the stack loss immunity was added.

So no idea what you actually try to say or argue here since again it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Do you play Rev at all? Have you ever touched the frame?

Yeah, I've played it for Mesmer skin for some time when I had old PC just to do archon hunts. It was before shield gate change. After that time I've not played it to much. Now I've new pc and with team it's not necessary to bring good frame.

Your explanation seams reasonable. I've always hide and recasted Mesmer before it hit 0. I've died few times when I've tried to recast it near boss. I guess that 1.3 second shield gate + my not so great response time might be not enough. With new shield gate it may be doable for me - I'll try it some time. Thank you for explanation.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

On 2024-02-01 at 5:40 PM, quxier said:

It's like "roll a dice". One frames are "powerful" and other have "bad abilities". It's like 2 different people creating them.

ps. sometimes it's not that extreme

I doubt it. People use shields more than hp nowadays.

It's just it works (his immortality) on demand (just need some energy). You press button and except Nulliies, toxic and few enemies you are immortal for some time.

 

Other frame's immortality are not the best:

- Inaros - big hp bag, no shield gate, so you can even get "one shot" with strong enemy

- Styanax + augment requires lot of energy and it's just status immunity + additional health

- Nidus has unding passive but you need stacks first, they reset after death or Grasp focus ability

-  Shield gate meta needs you to spam abilities to be immortal, as shields are not restored when getting hit

Maybe they decide for themselves that this youtube guy talking right? Haha.

So... let's make him vulnerable to enemeis that we need to be aware of as they are dungersous. The enemies that are in larger quantities in "end game". That makes pretty reliable ability to useless "perk".

To be honest immortality shouldn't be issue if it's like in warframe - stack X items and you do Y damage or take Z damage without dying.

Revenant literally has an Overshield effect from killed Thralls and has Shields in general, I'm referring to Eximus Attacks ignoring Mesmer Skin but not bullets, a lot like Limbo.

That's why I don't play Limbo anymore (except low-mid missions or not dangerous one). In "higher" content, lots of enemies ignore Limbo and just destroy/damage thing I want to protect. Why bother with CC & stuff when I can just DPS enemy & Vazarin to heal Defense objective (moving one). Mesmer skin would end up same way.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

 

You'd want to obviously buff other aspects of his kit before messing with Mesmer Skin, but if other things are going to be buffed, Mesmer needs to have some type of vulnerability so you can justify those changes.

Sure, but letting lots of enemies damage you is not great way.

[Merkranire]

I’m all for nerfing whatever, since I’m kind of sick of players blaming the game for their actions

[SDGDen]

On 2024-02-01 at 7:19 PM, Kaiga said:

This has been the DE mindset on many occasions throughout the game's history 

not directly. 

there's a big misunderstanding related to this: "DE just nerfs what's popular" isnt directly true, but will be effectively true because the primary target of DE's nerfs (the strongest items) are also the things that the playerbase gravitates towards.

as a result, the reverse is also generally true. the most popular things are generally the ones that are the strongest, and therefore, excessive popularity is a sign that said item needs to be further investigated to see if it needs a nerf. 

so yes, in the end. DE usually ends up nerfing things that are popular. but not *because they're popular*, they nerf those items *because they're too strong*, which also happens to be the main reason they're popular.

 

[SDGDen]

On 2024-02-03 at 3:39 AM, Waeleto said:

Instead of nerfing what's popular, buff what's unpopular *cough* caliban/loki/oberon/yareilo/sevagoth *cough*

how about both?

 

here's the issue with this way of thinking: imagine every warframe as a little statue, sitting on a line in front of you going from worst to best. 

you take the worst frame (probably caliban lmao), take it out of the line, and move it to the top, buffing it to be great.

now a new frame is the worst frame, all you've managed to do is move the line as a whole a bit further up.

 

instead, the real way to balance is as follows:

you choose a single frame in that line, the one frame you consider the most balanced. lets say nova. 

if a frame is significantly stronger than nova, it needs to be nerfed.

if a frame is significantly weaker than nova, it needs to be buffed

this way you are not moving that line, but rather compressing it closer to the "pivot" you chose.

 

by only buffing the worst frames, you'll be buffing forever in an endless cycle while powercreep siphons every last drop of difficulty out of the game.

 

[Almxce]

Revenant was a lot more engaging to play before the Mesmer Skin buff and the addition of Mesmer Shield, I thought the buff was a bit crazy and they can probably reduce the invulnerability between stack losses from 1 sec to maybe 0.5 secs instead. Right now with a enough ability strength you can activate Mesmer and forget it's on lol. Also they can nerf it and it would still be a powerful ability - you can regain health and shields using Reave, and stacks using Reave on Thralls. Reave can also transfer any status effects on Revenant to any enemies he passes through but if you have Mesmer up you can't use this part of the ability due to immunity. Mesmer Shield storing status effects instead of applying to allies would've been cool. 

He has very interesting parts of his kit like the status transfer via Reave and his shield blast passive that can and should be accentuated but Mesmer in it's current form doesn't allow those abilities to shine which I think can make him a bit boring to play in his current form. There's a proper Eidolon Reaver/Vampire style warframe there and with a bit of polish I think they'll bring out those concepts very successfully. At the same time not every WF needs to be super engaging so let's see if they decide to change anything, no harm done if they don't.

Edited February 4 by Almxce

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Mk1 braton can kill stuff in Steel path but no one would call this weapon good. You kill 1 or few mobs at one time using Exodia but other methods do it faster. For example with decent weapon and armor strip I can kill a lot.

No MK1 Braton would not. I said without breaking a sweat. You dont need armor strip to "kill alot" with contagion if you've actually built a weapon designed for contagion. It kills as fast and effective as any ranged AoE weapon pretty much.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Really? Just because it has some weird heavy slide in air combination that dealt massive damage doesn't mean it was used extensively. DE sometimes nerf/change something for some "reasons" - doesn't mean it's powerful enough so it has been used a lot.

But they dont unless enough people use it and bring it to light. Just as how Chroma went under the radar for years, all the way up to his popularity increase with Eidolons. And specters/clones going unnoticed up until the popularity increase of Wuklone. Which are all a result of high usage data.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

So that's the problem. The intended use is just bad. Nerfs changes how we use it if we don't do some crazy maneuver to get some crazy damage.

It already does/did crazy damage without the HA exploit. Hence why there was never a real reason to use the HA exploit, since you cant kill things in less than a hit in the end. So more and more indications you talk about an item you have probably never used, or bothered to actually build for.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

I know what "wall latch/attack instead of throwing Exodia" problem is. I don't understand this part:

Your example still includes RMB as part of the command, so you'd be in the same situation of accidental wall latching not matter how much you remove from the manouver aslong as it requires any time of air-time and RMB in combination.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

eah, I've played it for Mesmer skin for some time when I had old PC just to do archon hunts. It was before shield gate change. After that time I've not played it to much. Now I've new pc and with team it's not necessary to bring good frame.

Your explanation seams reasonable. I've always hide and recasted Mesmer before it hit 0. I've died few times when I've tried to recast it near boss. I guess that 1.3 second shield gate + my not so great response time might be not enough. With new shield gate it may be doable for me - I'll try it some time. Thank you for explanation.

That you've died versus the boss during recast is with a 99.99% probability due to getting hit by toxin at the wrong time. Since it is practically the only explaination in this case. Zero need for response time if you recast before it reaches zero since it has a quicker recast than the old 1.33 gate and it is removed and recast with the same button click. Rhino is more likely to get caught in between recasts if you have an augmented skin, since button click 1 removes and discharges Iron Skin and click 2 is required to reapply it. Not sure how it works now though when it is OG, if the discharge results in the OG immunity window or not.

And a tip for those that play frames like Kullervo, Nezha, Hildryn or Rhino. Subsume Roar on the first 3 and use the augment on all 4. That gives you an additional 80% DR and knockdown on demand that applies to OG, shields and health all the same.

[Tiltskillet]

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And a tip for those that play frames like Kullervo, Nezha, Hildryn or Rhino. Subsume Roar on the first 3 and use the augment on all 4. That gives you an additional 80% DR and knockdown on demand that applies to OG, shields and health all the same.

To be clear on Nezha, Puncture status only reduces the damage that leaks through Halo, not Halo itself.  

 

[quxier]

53 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

5 hours ago, quxier said:

Mk1 braton can kill stuff in Steel path but no one would call this weapon good. You kill 1 or few mobs at one time using Exodia but other methods do it faster. For example with decent weapon and armor strip I can kill a lot.

No MK1 Braton would not. I said without breaking a sweat

I'm not sure, It's pretty efficient here:

https://youtu.be/wyCwl0px5TQ?si=MpTORWuWv721TTpG&t=223

56 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You dont need armor strip to "kill alot" with contagion if you've actually built a weapon designed for contagion. It kills as fast and effective as any ranged AoE weapon pretty much.

Yeah, in big rooms. Otherwise it's just badly designed stuff.

56 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

5 hours ago, quxier said:

Really? Just because it has some weird heavy slide in air combination that dealt massive damage doesn't mean it was used extensively. DE sometimes nerf/change something for some "reasons" - doesn't mean it's powerful enough so it has been used a lot.

But they dont unless enough people use it and bring it to light. Just as how Chroma went under the radar for years, all the way up to his popularity increase with Eidolons. And specters/clones going unnoticed up until the popularity increase of Wuklone. Which are all a result of high usage data.

Sometimes they nerf/change stuff because they don't like certain stuff. Styanax' nerfs were like that.

58 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

5 hours ago, quxier said:

So that's the problem. The intended use is just bad. Nerfs changes how we use it if we don't do some crazy maneuver to get some crazy damage.

It already does/did crazy damage without the HA exploit. Hence why there was never a real reason to use the HA exploit, since you cant kill things in less than a hit in the end. So more and more indications you talk about an item you have probably never used, or bothered to actually build for.

I'm just normal user. I've not bothered with anything past normal starchart so I'm not crazy about huge damage but HOW it is used.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

6 hours ago, quxier said:

I know what "wall latch/attack instead of throwing Exodia" problem is. I don't understand this part:

Your example still includes RMB as part of the command, so you'd be in the same situation of accidental wall latching not matter how much you remove from the manouver aslong as it requires any time of air-time and RMB in combination.

Yes, that's the problem but I wasn't trying to fix that. What I'm saying that stupid double/bullet jump is not needed when you have already 1 attack per jump limitation (not even changed via Aerial ace mod).

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

On 2024-01-31 at 5:47 PM, Kaiga said:

The top usage items are generally considered to be up for changes. DE balances around equip rates, with popular weapons getting dispo hammered every mainline, is revenant due for a rebalance?

This is a rather incorrect conclusion as it concerns frames.
Many frames have topped the usage charts over the years but they have not been nerfed/rebalanced simply because of this.

Frames are available to all  at varying degrees of effort and do not enjoy parity between each other. That said, frames that get tuned down tend to do so for a variety of similar reasons.

• Ability to trivializing gameplay (example: early Ember, Volt, Frost, Nyx, Trinity, RJ Excal)
• Friendly AFK mechanics (example: g/pull Mag, Mesa, WuKong clone with aoe,) 
• Ability to impose a disruptive co-op experience i.e. "un-fun" (example: Ash, Trinity, Nova, WuKong) 

Revenant doesn't distinctly fit into any of these categories with the thing that's most likely made Revenant popular being his high defense and simple gameplay build and style.
If a player complains about a Revenant being "un-fun" to play around it will be due to a specific weapons loadout or... that the player is mad the Revenant isn't dying(?).

If anything, it would be simpler to say that Revenant is the new Old Rhino in that the frame is popular because it's comparatively easy to acquire, solo friendly, simple to build, and isn't fussy to play.

[Aruquae]

On 2024-02-02 at 9:39 PM, Waeleto said:

caliban

Who?

Ohhh, you mean that character in Shakespeare right?

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

To be clear on Nezha, Puncture status only reduces the damage that leaks through Halo, not Halo itself.  

It should affect the Halo since it is a debuff placed on the enemy that reduces outgoing damage, as opposed to a buff on the frame that reduces incoming damage. So 80% less damage should be produced by the enemy before it hits the Halo. So if the mob would hit for 5k it would really only send out 1k damage, meaning 100 bleeds through the Halo and is then mitigated by shields/armor/adaptation etc.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

I'm not sure, It's pretty efficient here:

Uhm no, that is quite far from pretty efficient. And also far from not breaking a sweat. Just as he even says in the video, he needs lots of stuff to even be able to kill to start with in order to get the buffs from the arcane. Not to mention he also makes use of primers at those low levels in order to help the MK-1 kill. 

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Yeah, in big rooms. Otherwise it's just badly designed stuff.

It works well practically everywhere.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Sometimes they nerf/change stuff because they don't like certain stuff. Styanax' nerfs were like that.

Not really the same thing since he was simply bugged and a bug got fixed. We've had very few actual nerfs that havent been the result of extensive use by the community. Thermal Sunder, Catchoom, Multi-Contagion spam, Vex Armor, Bramma, AoE overall, Wukong/Clones/Specters etc.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

I'm just normal user. I've not bothered with anything past normal starchart so I'm not crazy about huge damage but HOW it is used.

Then you cant really have an opinion regarding contagion since you simply dont know how powerful it actually is. It is practically an AoE gun with limited ammo that has a trigger requirement because it has no reload either. It is a weapon that can 1HK the heaviest SP Demolishers/Lysts, which is the opposite of useless.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

es, that's the problem but I wasn't trying to fix that. What I'm saying that stupid double/bullet jump is not needed when you have already 1 attack per jump limitation (not even changed via Aerial ace mod).

What is stupid with 2x jump though? Tap-tap or tap, I mean, what is the real difference? Complaining for the sake of complaining or? Removing the RMB interaction would not be a good solution either, since that would prohibit you from slam attacking when you want and end up in turd territory like a few of the sword and board weapons that have projectile areal attacks. Those weapons feel horrible with their single jump and quick melee trigger.