Could you maybe fix Loki? It's been a decade...

[Aldain]

5 hours ago, stormy505 said:

Um, actually I use this for riven challenges.

Half joking as I don't even know if the wall latch ones are still in the game.

I haven't seen on in a long time, and the last time I did see one was some insane combination of challenges so I just trashed it out of spite.

1 hour ago, SirKnum said:

Safeguard Switch being good is obviously wrong. It is very good. It's invulnerability can't be dispelled, Nullifiers and Acolytes won't all of a sudden make you mortal. And it's duration can be refreshed so you are not just functionally but actually immortal for as long as you have enemies to cast Switch Teleport on.

Don't get me wrong, that doesn't all of sudden alleviate all of his issues but Safeguard Switch is seriously underrated. The issue with Loki is that as long as you are in a situation where enemies do not pose a threat anyway his kit doesn't do much. 

That last issue is kind of the root of all my complaints, sure you could use Safeguard Switch to be immortal...but when "functionally immortal" checks 90% of all survivability boxes and contributes additional benefits that other frames give I don't see the point.

And regardless of the effectiveness of it, having to refresh it every couple of seconds seems like significantly more trouble than it's worth to me, on top of your movement being dictated by having to spam Switch Teleport lest you explode from a light tap.

[SirKnum]

Loki has invisibility, invulnerability, shield gating, and AoE disarm. Safe Guard Switch is just another tool in his arsenal, surviving is not Loki's issue at any level of play. The issue is that his whole kit doesn't do anything else.

[(PSN)BattleCry1791]

I use Loki all the time.  Because I swapped out his 4 for perpacity, ran up the duration and he's the frame I use for spy sorties.  I occasionally use his 1 and 3 to move on the map

Sure, he's about as durable as a chinese hammer, switch teleport was no longer relevant once bullet jumps were introduced, and his decoy is essentially a waste of energy.  

But he can run at speed while invisible - I think my most recent build is 42 (maybe 46) seconds.  I get wanting to revisit the glory days of the Loki master race - especially with the new Melee.  

But don't you dare touch that invisibility duration.  

[Venus-Venera]

Am 11.2.2024 um 21:02 schrieb Vashramire:

They need to get on frames that have been in a bad state for like a decade. Wukong, Hydroid, Ember, and soon Inaros are nice but Loki? My boy is a 4 button wonder that requires an augment to work on some factions. His 2 is for survivability but they also gave it to Ash for some reason when his 4 gives I-frames. Identity crisis much? His 1 is useless unless augmented (so you can hide the taunting decoy to survive better? Surely you can see the counterintuitive gameplay DE) as unlike any other clone/decoy it just has health and duration, no invuln absorb time or damage capability and it's his subsume. What? His 3 is for trolling almost exclusively with minor mobility uses and has had times it's more toxic than Limbo was. It's so disorienting to use and even worse on teammates. His trickster theme even was done better on Mirage so what does he have that makes him, him? He can wall latch for a long time. *slow clap*

DE he was my first frame in the beta. I've been drinking copium for a decade but I can't ignore this any longer. I don't lightly make a plea for some attention but I think 11 years is a reasonable wait. He has been pushed under the rug when he should have been reworked a long time ago and his skills aren't fun anymore or even in line with the current warframe designs so I'm baffled as to how it has lasted this long. All the other starters got updates a long time ago but not him. Make him the trickster god he's suppose to be not an inconvenience to play.

PS: why do you hate Vauban Prime so much? That farm is toxic.

i liked loki in first 2 years. very good and strong warframe and he could help to save def obj. or it was epic adventure to search for secret rooms with him.

but now he is pointless. armor is low, health is low, to many enemies have deadly aoe.

loki is good if you want to chill and watch how enemies looks like in close range. this is the only reason to play him i think

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

i liked loki in first 2 years. very good and strong warframe and he could help to save def obj. or it was epic adventure to search for secret rooms with him.

but now he is pointless. armor is low, health is low, to many enemies have deadly aoe.

loki is good if you want to chill and watch how enemies looks like in close range. this is the only reason to play him i think

At a certain level, literally all armor and health is pointless, hence invisibility, invulnerability, and shield gating. 

If a player is dying with loki on regular starchart, that's the player not paying attention, which happens to everyone.

Edit: Also a reminder that there's literally handfuls of videos of people going to levelcap with Loki (the player makes the frame good).

Edited February 13 by (PSN)Madurai-Prime

[(PSN)Sentiel]

Maybe the experts in this thread can help me understand the benefits Loki brings when compared to Ash.

It feels like Ash can do everything Loki does but better because he's more damage oriented.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

Double post

Please delete 

Edited February 13 by (PSN)Sentiel

[Aerikx]

11 hours ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

Maybe the experts in this thread can help me understand the benefits Loki brings when compared to Ash.

It feels like Ash can do everything Loki does but better because he's more damage oriented.

As an Ash main I can a test that Ash is number 3 on the Stealth List.

Currently it's:

#1. Ivara - The Stealth Goddess

#2 Loki - Stealth Master

#3 Ash - Advanced Stealth 

The key difference being that Ash is an assassin while Loki is a Trickster. Therefore Ash has worse stealth, but to make up for it, Ash can fight. Loki is designed to be more of a hindrance on the battlefield. Goes around unseen, disarms and distracts the enemy. 

For honorable mention...

Ivara is intended to be a Hunter but is effectively a blend of Ash's lethality and Loki's trickery. 

She can do everything they can do and then some. 

The difference is, she isn't as battle hardened as Ash, or as fast as Loki when Invisible. 

All that said...

I feel like Loki could use a Zephyr style rework. IE: Remove Decoy & Teleport, and replace them with more synergizing abilities.

I for example swapped out Teleport with Teleport 3.0, er I mean Wrathful Advance. It's had a dramatically positive effect on Loki IMPO. 

Decoy needs to go. It's honestly just lackluster. With the Augment it's a decent "Cheat Death" but that's it. He needs something unique but fun. 

I'd do something like this:

Passive: Master of Unlocking

Loki Senses all Loot (includes Containers and Caches) within 30m and Unlocks all Lockers & Doors with 100% Success.

1. Trickster's Feign

Master of Deception, Loki envelops himself in a Reflective aura of Deception, reducing damage received and causing attacks to ricochet off Loki and strike an enemy units. 

Explanation:

Loki is squishy so this would give him some desperately needed survivability, especially against splash/AOE damage. Additionally it would add to his theme of being a menace on the field as he'd be reflecting a percentage of damage received back at enemies. 

Augment: Feigning Trick

Allows Loki to share the buff with the squad but with lower damage reduction and damage reflect.

2. Invisibility [Same as it is now, but I'd up the duration, lower the energy cost, and merge his Hushed Invisibility Augment into it.] 

3. Exposing Flash

Loki phases out of sigh and reappears in a blast of radioactive energy, stunning nearby enemies, leaving them open to finishers.

(Press for what is essentially Teleport + Radial Howl/Flash, Hold for Normal Loki Teleport cleverly hidden as a secret move.)

4. Radial Disarm 

Loki unleashes a surge of Radiation, overloading enemy weapons, detonating all firearms in within 20m, stunning and confusing enemies. 

Explanation:

Functionally this would be the same except now it permanently disarms enemies, similar to Baruuk's 2, knocks down enemies via blast damage, and leaves a radioactive debuff on them for a few seconds, causing them to attack each other in confusion. 

Goal:

Focusing on the trickster/agent of chaos theme on the battlefield. He effectively hinders the enemy with CC and confusion, while aiding the group with damage reflect while exposing the enemy to finishers. All while retaining his stealth/stay unseen gameplay.

Edited February 14 by Aerikx
Typo that was buggin me.

[SneakyErvin]

Even though Loki works and only need a couple of fixes, like merging of skills and given a new one instead of one of those, I'd still like to see him reworked into more of a Loki of the myths and less "Puny god!" Loki of Marvel.

He would really have been more fitting it they skipped decoy and teleport and gave him something similar to Enthrall, since that is more how he is. He whispers in the ears and spreads mistrust and deceit, he doesnt create illusions. He could also use some form of either a melee buff or a melee exalted/pseudo, since he is a master swordsman going toe to toe with Heimdal ending up both victorious and losing as they both die. Stealth should be replaced with some illusion buff instead that makes the frame look like the enemy faction, giving him evasion or something similar to Xaku.

Disarm can stay since it fits the master swordsman he is, plus it fits the whole story about Mjölner, where he tries to sabotage the craft by giving it a handle too short for it to be handled properly. Guess he ran into a nullifier there since it apparently didnt turn out as he planned with that Disarm... 

Edited February 13 by SneakyErvin

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

On 2024-02-11 at 12:15 PM, Aldain said:

Honestly the toughest part is figuring out what the hell do to with him, anyone can see his 1 and 3 are hilariously bad...the 3 especially.

Making his 1 not die to a a gentle breeze is an obvious choice imo (be it via making it invincible or just significantly more durable), I'd also roll his 3 into a hold cast function of it just for posterity. Give him a whole new 3rd ability, something, ANYTHING would be better than Switch Teleport, Kullervo literally rolled into the game and put his 1st ability into Helminth SOLELY to dunk on Switch Teleport as a skill.

Probably would give his 4 the current augment natively and make a new augment instead, it's been powercrept and also hit by collateral damage from things like Overguard so much that making it natively give a Rad proc wouldn't be a game breaker.

His 2 is fine and probably the only part of his kit that doesn't need to be replaced or reworked.

Also he needs a passive that isn't a meme because even Wall Latch builds are designed to Wall Latch as little as possible, nobody, not one single soul is going to Wall Latch for a whole minute, and anyone saying "I do" I'm calling out for being a complete contrarian.

Well if I had to throw my hat into the ring, I think the easiest way to buff Loki is just to lean into his strengths, tweak a few effects, give him a stronger Passive and maybe combine some of his kit to get a whole new ability.

Try giving Loki a Passive based around being seen, a detection bar if you will. Loki receives a damage buff the longer enemies aren't looking at him, and while he's visible the buff decays fairly quickly. Make it something simple, like a weapon damage boost. You can easily keep the wall latch as well, and maybe give him an eye-shaped icon in the corner to tell you if you're actively being seen.

ST and Decoy should just be rolled into one ability yeah, there's no real reason at this point to separate them when the two abilities are intrinsically linked together. Decoy has its Duration halved and creates an AoE guaranteed aggro pull based on range while being invulnerable.

ST now has synergy with a different ability in Loki's kit, which we'll just call Trickery. Switching in general now creates a blinding AoE at Loki's location and the enemy/ally location. Switching with Decoy specifically increases the Range. You no longer have to target Decoy directly, if you don't have a target, you just switch with Decoy automatically.

I don't think Loki really needs any changes to his 2, but if I was going to change anything about it, I'd ask for a speed boost based on his detection bar. You keep staying out of sight, you get a better boost.

Trickery is a new ability you can have the most freedom with by far. Personally I'd give Loki some kind of enemy alert reset that increases the duration before you're actually seen, as I feel a blind is a good option, but more abilities related to dealing max sneak attack damage like Sleep should be considered. Maybe just a flat increase to sneak attack damage as well, that's the general of style of play Loki wants, so keep trying to make it work.

Radial Disarm probably doesn't need anything at this point, a giant disarm is still really effective at the end of the day, I would maybe just suggest giving enemies an attack debuff so they don't end up dealing more damage than they would with guns, as that seems counter-intuitive to what you're trying to do with it in the first place. Maybe also add the Augment to the ability by default as well, and just make the Augment do something else like a knockdown or much longer stun.

Edited February 13 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 hours ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

Maybe the experts in this thread can help me understand the benefits Loki brings when compared to Ash.

It feels like Ash can do everything Loki does but better because he's more damage oriented.

There's nothing to understand except "every frame isn't for everyone"

You clearly haven't used the wiki and seen for example, that Loki has a higher base duration on Invisibility than Ash. 

All tips and tricks for each frame are on the wiki. 

All frames are tools used for different purposes. This is why neither Ash nor Loki would not be a good choice for Kuva Defense....

[(PSN)Sentiel]

2 hours ago, Aerikx said:

As an Ash main I can a test that Ash is number 3 on the Stealth List.

Currently it's:

Ivara - The Stealth Goddess

Loki - Stealth Master

Ash - Advanced Stealth 

The key difference being that Ash is an assassin while Loki is a Trickster. Therefore Ash has worse stealth, but to make up for it, Ash can fight. Loki is designed to be more of a hindrance on the battlefield. Goes around unseen, disarms and distracts the enemy. 

For honorable mention...

Ivara is intended to be a Hunter but is effectively a blend of Ash's lethality and Loki's trickery.

All that said...

I feel like Loki could use a Zephyr style rework. IE: Remove Decoy & Teleport, and replace them with more synergizing abilities.

I for example swapped out Teleport with Teleport 3.0, er I mean Wrathful Advance. It's had a dramatically positive effect on Loki IMPO. 

Thank you for the explanation.

I just put Wrathful Advance on Loki and it's now a more enjoyable frame to use. It works like Ash now but with some CC as well.

[Aerikx]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

Thank you for the explanation.

I just put Wrathful Advance on Loki and it's now a more enjoyable frame to use. It works like Ash now but with some CC as well.

You're welcome!

[UnstarPrime]

In my opinion, Loki still hasn't been dethroned as the generalist king of invisibility.  Each invisibility frame has their own pros and cons that will be more or less tolerable depending on your individual needs, but Loki has the longest-lasting (and most energy efficient, by a small margin) invisibility that doesn't impede movement, making him a top pick for anyone looking for an invisible weapons platform.

What's that, 3 of his abilities aren't very good?  Doesn't matter, because Invisibility is just that good.  The yearly stats show that folks are still using Loki Prime more than Ash Prime, despite Ash having a full kit and Loki not.  And honestly, I'm not surprised.  Loki is simple, Loki is clean, Loki does the invisible and leaves the killing up to your favorite weapons.  It seems that plenty of people like that.

All of which is to say, Loki really isn't in need of being fixed.  Would it be nice if he got a bit of a rework?  Probably.  But there are frames that need that more than Loki.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

8 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

In my opinion, Loki still hasn't been dethroned as the generalist king of invisibility.  Each invisibility frame has their own pros and cons that will be more or less tolerable depending on your individual needs, but Loki has the longest-lasting (and most energy efficient, by a small margin) invisibility that doesn't impede movement, making him a top pick for anyone looking for an invisible weapons platform.

What's that, 3 of his abilities aren't very good?  Doesn't matter, because Invisibility is just that good.  The yearly stats show that folks are still using Loki Prime more than Ash Prime, despite Ash having a full kit and Loki not.  And honestly, I'm not surprised.  Loki is simple, Loki is clean, Loki does the invisible and leaves the killing up to your favorite weapons.  It seems that plenty of people like that.

All of which is to say, Loki really isn't in need of being fixed.  Would it be nice if he got a bit of a rework?  Probably.  But there are frames that need that more than Loki.

It's the bandwagon players that barely use weapons. They're expecting another 1 button nuke.