Being forced to use outdated or bottom-tier RNG equipment in new high level game modes is not "difficulty"

[schilds]

I mean, I actually see from Traumtulpe and Raikh, that for *some* people, the reward is the priority, and the fun part. Fair enough. If you have already set that as your priority, I can see that you might feel pressured.

Still, like many other things in Warframe, I think it's just a matter of telling yourself that you don't need it *right now*. You can be *patient*. Is that being somewhat unsympathetic? Maybe, but I see it largely as a *you* problem, and while fomo *is* something to be wary of, this is not true fomo in the sense that *right now* is your only chance to get the reward otherwise you've missed out forever.

That's how it is in other games, with other devs. Not this softly softly "I feel pressured", "whip me with a lettuce leaf" stuff that DE pulls, but actually locking players out. That said, I'm not saying don't express your opinion or give feedback. Maybe it'll keep DE in check so they don't become those other devs :-P. I just think people are exaggerating.

 

 

As for the discussion about whether rng *in general* is fun or "difficult", it might surprise some of you (who spend all your time hallucinating things about me rather than reading my posts) to find I don't necessarily disagree.

Edited March 1 by schilds

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, Raikh said:

Playing the game is optional, its always such a silly argument

No, @schilds is correct. It's actually quite silly that people are complaining about optional, bonus criteria and trying to equate that with everyday Warframe gameplay. Why would you even want that when the remaining 95% of the game fulfills that criteria, including an update just recently released? 

Of course playing a game is optional. In that, there are additional options to choose from, from the beginning of the game to alllll the way to its massive, current offering. You can both choose to play the game and choose the options within it.

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

11 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

You're just completely dead wrong here. getting the loot *is* winning in this game. You don't "win" by clearing a mission, that's completely irrelevant, missions are just carbon copies of each other and utterly inconsequential. The sole question is "did I get the loot" after farming for 5 hours? No it didn't drop? Then I lost.

There's an excuse to make for conditions like in sorties "equip a bow" or the like, but "equip those mastery fodder dual pistols (yeah, those ones that are exactly the same as the 10 other dual pistols, just with worse stats!) that you sold for 5k credits 7 years ago because you didn't want to waste 20 plat on weapon slots for useless garbage" is just grifting.

I do genuinely pity DE that this is the playerbase they're left with.

Not that much since this is still something they inflicted upon themselves, over many years and many steps. But I still pity them. 

[Skoomaseller]

8 hours ago, schilds said:

I mean, I actually see from Traumtulpe and Raikh, that for *some* people, the reward is the priority, and the fun part. Fair enough. If you have already set that as your priority, I can see that you might feel pressured.

Still, like many other things in Warframe, I think it's just a matter of telling yourself that you don't need it *right now*. You can be *patient*. Is that being somewhat unsympathetic? Maybe, but I see it largely as a *you* problem, and while fomo *is* something to be wary of, this is not true fomo in the sense that *right now* is your only chance to get the reward otherwise you've missed out forever.

That's how it is in other games, with other devs. Not this softly softly "I feel pressured", "whip me with a lettuce leaf" stuff that DE pulls, but actually locking players out. That said, I'm not saying don't express your opinion or give feedback. Maybe it'll keep DE in check so they don't become those other devs :-P. I just think people are exaggerating.

so once again the argument boils down to "you don't need <thing> right now/you just want <thing> right now" which has been said over and over on not just this post, but others in the past talking about this very issue, to not be the point yet people like you keep assuming that it is

and I know even after typing all this y'all will keep thinking it is true. 

8 hours ago, schilds said:

As for the discussion about whether rng *in general* is fun or "difficult", it might surprise some of you (who spend all your time hallucinating things about me rather than reading my posts) to find I don't necessarily disagree.

you've so far shown otherwise, being dismissive and all, and when called out on your disingenuity you resort to... telling people they're hallucinating, or putting words in your mouth.

Okay. Maybe you and the other contrarians (yes, contrarians, you guys aren't actually contributing anything to the discussion) should get your heads out of your asses. 

[JohnMorte]

4 hours ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

I do genuinely pity DE that this is the playerbase they're left with.

Not that much since this is still something they inflicted upon themselves, over many years and many steps. But I still pity them. 

what do you mean, pity? the gameplay loop and reward structure is literally why people play games such as warframe. I do not see people playing regular star chart non-alert exterminates without some specific goal in mind. which isn't weird or something lamentable, it is simply how it is. warframe has a large amount of possible loadouts for a large amount of personal tastes. forcing them for highest tier stuff just sucks and nobody likes it. hence: 8 pages of this thread (so far!)

[ShogunGunshow]

IIRC we don't even know for sure if Pablo is going with the 'all but one' or 'all' as conditions for the guaranteed legendary. He seemed to be waffling on that during the devstream.

Should probably be 'all', because every equipment slot has something you can take that can potentially trivialize the game. Especially Warframes. 

And you're not 'forced' to, you just don't get the guaranteed legendary if you don't go all in. You can still amp up that 'heat' meter or whatever you want to call it to earn pretty much everything else while being allowed to take your personal crutch. 

[schilds]

2 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

so once again the argument boils down to "you don't need <thing> right now/you just want <thing> right now" which has been said over and over on not just this post, but others in the past talking about this very issue, to not be the point yet people like you keep assuming that it is

I am not the one who keeps bringing rewards into the discussion. An assumption would be if there was *no prior reference* to rewards and then I brought them up. Instead, the debates go like this:

Someone: We are being forced into rng loadouts, that's no fun.

Me: You're not being forced, it's optional, you can just uncheck the box for whichever restriction you want.

Them: To get the legendary arcanes, I need to tick all the boxes.

See that last line? *That* is why a discussion of rewards, and whether people truly need them is relevant. *I* am not assuming it's relevant to other people. *Other people* are telling me that it's relevant. I wouldn't be talking about rewards at all, otherwise. If rewards are not relevant to *your* points in this discussion, fine, but then you can't claim to speak for the other people I have been arguing with.

2 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

you've so far shown otherwise, being dismissive and all, and when called out on your disingenuity you resort to... telling people they're hallucinating,

Yeah I get it. When you have nothing better to say, out comes the personal commentary.

"Hallucinations" is a term used by me to refer *specifically* to stories invented about me. Nothing else.

The OP, for example, does not know me, has not played any games with me, probably hasn't even looked at my profile, and yet somehow came up with a tale about me, steel path, and level cap (or lack thereof). That's his personal commentary, an invention, and irrelevant to the substance of the discussion. It's only purpose is to flex and put me down so my opinion can be dismissed. I don't apologise for calling such inventions "hallucinations".

Quote

or putting words in your mouth.

It is common in discussions to seek clarification on what people mean. Where someone has *assumed* I mean more than what I actually said, it is natural to set the record straight. Typically, people are taking my part on the opposite side in the *narrow* debate about being "forced" to mean I am on the opposite side on *everything*. That's not true. When people make that assumption and speak it out aloud as if I said it, then they are "putting words in my mouth". It is not disingenuous to clarify what my position is, and qualify my statements as specific references to the debate on "forcing" rather than a wider debate on rng.

[HazelMeade]

And here I thought this was going to be a thread about the random equipment choices in Duviri.  That's genuinely obnoxious.

All they're doing with this Netracell thing is copying Destiny's Nightfall missions.  Completely unoriginal.

[HazelMeade]

14 hours ago, Emwue said:

The real question though is how many of those players enjoy it, which is impossible to even guesstimate, even for DE actually.

I came to this thread specifically because the title made me think of how much I detest Duviri and its random loadouts.  Thankfully I completed everything that I can get from Duviri (yes, the LOOT) and I have no reason to play it any more.  I have no doubt that the new Netracell mode will be just as annoying, in particular with people discovering their equipment doesn't work and bailing, but now you'll have the added bonus of their keyglyphs getting randomly redistributed to players who might not be prepared for them.  It's going to be great!

Also, remember that when they added arcane portals, there were still two other ways to get those arcanes that, while they took longer, were still reasonably doable.  Technically the Netracell arcanes might still be achievable, but 1.5-2 years is a frankly insane amount of time to expect anyone to grind for an item, especially when there will be 6+ more "major" content drops in that time.  Most players are completely gone in that time frame and will never play again.

Edited March 2 by HazelMeade

[Paroe]

On 2024-02-23 at 5:54 PM, Kaiga said:

Wrong. They could create unique enemy types that resist meta builds, or improved enemy AI not from 2012 that require different strategies and movement/tactics to handle, but it's far easier just to limit player choice. RNGframe *is* an artificial limitation on our builds.

 

 

This post made me login to the ofrums for the first time in months because of how incredibly out of touch and wrong it is. 
Do you remember the OVERGUARD debacle? How it was literally meant to resist meta builds, but turned out to be absolutely awful to play again and spent the next several months being consistently nerfed and reworked? 

When you give people access to their powercrept and bruteforce options you have to balance AROUND those options. no amount of AI will solve that issue. 
In fact, if DE did just give us "better AI" it would just be stupidly annoying to play against; Enemies dodging our projectiles, shooting down our missiles, constantly avoiding our line of sight, are all things that are fine in CSGO and overcrap but in a horde killer like warframe it creates an awful feeling. Especially when we arent used to it from the start.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

My contribution to this topic is that I detest randomized loadouts.

Duviri is garbage to me. The circuit does not exist in my world.
Arbitrations arbitrarily boosting random gear is never a consideration for me.
I don't even have or want the Helminth segment that randomly buffs certain frames.

There are reasons I don't use the things I don't use in this game. I like what is fun to me. If I can't use what's fun to me, why play? Oh yeah, they're locking rewards behind it that I need. So I trudge through annoying randomized gameplay until I get the rewards I need, and drop it like a rock. However, the rewards they're placing behind this game mode are going to be months and months of weekly missions making me dread even turning on my PS4.

I will likely just ignore these, for my own wellbeing.

They can try to balance their spreadsheet's usage data without my contribution falling into line with using the junk they want me to use each week.

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2024-03-02 at 12:29 AM, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

I do genuinely pity DE that this is the playerbase they're left with.

Not that much since this is still something they inflicted upon themselves, over many years and many steps. But I still pity them. 

Ayyy, my favourite username has returned!

Sadly, this is actually worse than you'd think. This isn't the userbase that DE are left with. The userbase has steadily expanded over the years to reach a wider group of people. The same average numbers are still in game at any one time, but now they have the broader reach from years of expansion and advertising.

So what you have now is a more realistic look at the playerbase of gaming across the board, and population in general, where the average most stupid and average loudest come together to make their views known the most vehemently, while everyone that's in the middle or is just doing their own thing in a way they enjoy is now masked or silenced by the extremes.

In getting broader and more accessible, the game has hit the point where the players are no longer... filtered... by seeking out something different. By becoming mainstream and recognisable, it's now been opened to all that can be interested.

So DE have brought this kind of ridiculous nature onto themselves because of their own success ^^

[SneakyErvin]

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Ayyy, my favourite username has returned!

Sadly, this is actually worse than you'd think. This isn't the userbase that DE are left with. The userbase has steadily expanded over the years to reach a wider group of people. The same average numbers are still in game at any one time, but now they have the broader reach from years of expansion and advertising.

So what you have now is a more realistic look at the playerbase of gaming across the board, and population in general, where the average most stupid and average loudest come together to make their views known the most vehemently, while everyone that's in the middle or is just doing their own thing in a way they enjoy is now masked or silenced by the extremes.

In getting broader and more accessible, the game has hit the point where the players are no longer... filtered... by seeking out something different. By becoming mainstream and recognisable, it's now been opened to all that can be interested.

So DE have brought this kind of ridiculous nature onto themselves because of their own success ^^

This^

And one thing to add to this aswell, which will likely upset some is... Not only has the game expanded to a wider player range, it is also now of an age that sees a new generation of players that arent used to what many of us others are.

 

On 2024-03-01 at 2:04 PM, Traumtulpe said:

You're just completely dead wrong here. getting the loot *is* winning in this game. You don't "win" by clearing a mission, that's completely irrelevant, missions are just carbon copies of each other and utterly inconsequential. The sole question is "did I get the loot" after farming for 5 hours? No it didn't drop? Then I lost.

There's an excuse to make for conditions like in sorties "equip a bow" or the like, but "equip those mastery fodder dual pistols (yeah, those ones that are exactly the same as the 10 other dual pistols, just with worse stats!) that you sold for 5k credits 7 years ago because you didn't want to waste 20 plat on weapon slots for useless garbage" is just grifting.

On 2024-03-01 at 2:12 PM, Traumtulpe said:

No, getting stuff is literally all there is to Warframe. That is literally the game. Technically there's also shooting (since it's a "looter-shooter"), but as I said, that part is literally inconsequential, you can't "win" that part - all missions are the same, the only thing that differs is the loot.

Subjective opinions and not even based on what win actually refers to in the subject of P2W. "Win" refers to achieving an advantage over another player by paying, a significant advantage. Getting these arcanes is not a win as by the meaning of the term P2W, since you are not gaining an advantage over another player through paying. Even if you could buy these arcanes straight up for plat it wouldnt be a win, since we all uhm lift together to achieve the same goal when we are among other players. Which as far as we know is also an available approach to this new mode incase you get only bad options for the week and the requirements for a full research run stays strict and you have a weak operator to boot.

There is no actual win tied to the game, just a personal state of satisfaction. For me that comes from simply playing and farming for that item, having something to do, something to chase. Paying for me would in reality be a straight loss, since I'd have no reason to engage with the content, which would mean less reasons to spend time on my hobby. 

You just wont run into SuperGodBob wielding his Murder Axe of Genocidal Splendorous Annihilation +15 that he paid real cash for as you try to fend him of with your Kobold's Silver Butterknife +2, resulting in Bob curb stomping you and violating your corpse with a chip n' dip before skippety hopping off into the distance in search for more non paying victims. If you run into SuperGodBob here he'll just be that other fellow with the gun you currently do not possess as the two of you mow down an assorted amount of mobs as you approach the main objective together as one.

edit: So if WF is P2W, then Bob just payed for you to win.

Edited March 3 by SneakyErvin

[JohnMorte]

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Sadly, this is actually worse than you'd think. This isn't the userbase that DE are left with. The userbase has steadily expanded over the years to reach a wider group of people. The same average numbers are still in game at any one time, but now they have the broader reach from years of expansion and advertising.

So what you have now is a more realistic look at the playerbase of gaming across the board, and population in general, where the average most stupid and average loudest come together to make their views known the most vehemently, while everyone that's in the middle or is just doing their own thing in a way they enjoy is now masked or silenced by the extremes.

In getting broader and more accessible, the game has hit the point where the players are no longer... filtered... by seeking out something different. By becoming mainstream and recognisable, it's now been opened to all that can be interested.

So DE have brought this kind of ridiculous nature onto themselves because of their own success ^^

i feel this attitude is incredibly elitist. players are not stupid or loud for simply voicing their disagreement towards specific design decisions. nor can i understand the idea that "everyone in the middle" are being silenced. "everyone in the middle" are most likely enjoying the loot they get from running missions with rewards.

this is a live service game. most players play because they obtain rewards from missions. the gameplay loop is excellent, partly because of how the base gameplay is with movement and combat mechanics, but also because loadouts are highly customizable. with this gameplay loop, it makes the act of running missions more rewarding and enticing, especially when said missions offer more than your average starchart mission.

this is also an RPG. you know how players enjoyed struggling in the early levels only to obtain the power to slay deities in the later stages of the game? such is the same thing in even Warframe. tenno obtain strength, experience, and inventory to match and annihilate what caused them struggle early. well, gamemodes that revert the power they had spent many hours getting to tend to be less popular amongst even the average player.

knowing these things, you can understand why people may hold reluctance or irritation towards gamemodes that seek to remove agency from players who spent so long obtaining said agency? and perhaps why players may not be "stupid or loud" for complaining about it on the forums?

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

edit: So if WF is P2W, then Bob just payed for you to win.

nobody said warframe was pay to win at all. that was never his point.

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, JohnMorte said:

i feel this attitude is incredibly elitist.

My friend, my dear fellow player, I'm condescending, not elitist ^^ /s

That said, no, what I was talking about is literally what happens.

The Forums are populated by a fairly average spread of people. However. It's a proven and well documented fact that the people that get the most attention in any situation are the ones who are either loud or stupid. The loud, naturally, because they crave the most attention. The stupid because they don't have the ability to check things for themselves in some way, whether that's reading up, asking another player, or just experiencing it for themselves, and so they complain about it instead (which is what makes them stupid, because somebody that doesn't do any of those things, but then doesn't come to complain about it is self-aware enough to not be stupid).

It's not elitist, it's an observation of fact. There's been literal scientific studies of this function for the last thirty or forty years of documented sociology.

The people that get the most attention are the loud and the stupid, which means that the attention is not being given to the people that are neither of those things.

And, to re-iterate, that's not just Warframe. That's life. That's reality.

And to be even more clear, I'm one of the loud people, you can tell because you're paying attention to me after I made a broad and sweeping statement that didn't connect to the current discussion (which is also a little stupid, but I own that too).

You can try to wrangle your comment around to get me to discuss the function of players 'playing for reward' versus 'for the playing', and it's not going to happen. That's not what I'm talking about, that's not the discussion I'm having.

I replied to an old, old friend that I haven't seen in years, commenting on the problems of having a broad and accurate representation of the gaming world coming to Warframe rather than the historical narrow band of minority gamers we had before.

Tangential to the thread, yes.

Part of the other argument that's going on? No.

Going to discuss that ridiculous spiral of not-getting-anywhere? Nope.

What I will say is this: When the game mode is literally built so that the only limitations put on the player are for optimisation of their own personal experience, then that's the textbook opposite of 'forcing' a player to do something. This is what's called 'the carrot and stick' method, where DE are dangling a goal (carrot) ahead of players on the end of a mission (stick) and you can progress towards that goal as fast as you like, all depending on how hungry you are for the goal.

If the players want to play this content with absolutely none of the modifiers on it, they can. And they will get rewards. They can play it as many times as they like to get all of the rewards, because the drop table is limited to five items. However, if they put in the extra work. place the limitations on themselves, they can guarantee the rewards in one run. Carrot. Stick. Optimisation.

The people that are coming to the Forum and saying that this is 'forcing' players, by the definition of having not checked this out for themselves, done the reading to see what the situation is, or just asked another person who knows better, are being stupid. And also loud by proxy.

Forget rewards, forget playing for playing, look at the context of the original post and you can clearly see that OP is being stupid.

You're not being stupid, because you're taking the discussion that can and will happen around the topic of playing for rewards versus playing for playing, and continuing it.

That's not stupid. Well, maybe a little, because it's also a tangent from the original point and not something I'm engaging in.

[schilds]

4 hours ago, JohnMorte said:

nobody said warframe was pay to win at all. that was never his point.

Ahem. About a page back ...

Quote

Because b) this is just a plat check. You don't even have to use 2/3 of the weapons, just "own them so you can equip them". The whole thing is just "Did you spend thousands of plat on our game, for weapons slots and to collect all those obsolete crappy weapons? Good boy, here's your free points!" Literally pay to win.

^{I'm not directly quoting it because it's not my intention to ping and annoy the person who said it :P. Also, the bold formatting is my emphasis.}

Edited March 3 by schilds

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, JohnMorte said:

nobody said warframe was pay to win at all. that was never his point.

At what point was that not the point of the person I quoted, which answered to a person that pointed out things regarding not P2W? I mean lol, there is zero reason for the person I quoted to point out "win" if he isnt implying WF being P2W. Especially when refering to an item.

[JohnMorte]

fair enough, i lost track of all of that because this thread has multiple pages and like 8 different threads of thought

 

[Enxchiol]

On 2024-02-27 at 11:23 AM, Kaiga said:

Seriously. Thats been the repeated point the entire time. Difficulty is something being mechanically difficult with movement techs to master, enemy weaknesses to exploit, and team roles to play, leading to a feeling of "wow that was tough,  but we did it. 

Yes, that is absolutely true, but you have to consider, no matter how complex your enemy AI or movement or mechanics are, none of it matters if enemies get killed within seconds of spawning and players can be literally invulnerable.

The unfortunate truth is, for any sort of challenge to be possible in Warframe, our power level has to be toned down one way or another. And seeing how most of the community starts pissing and S#&amp;&#036;ting itself when any sort of nerf is mentioned(remember the proposed Mirage changes just a bit ago?), randomized loadouts is unfortunately one of the very few ways DE can introduce any sort of challenge nowadays.

[Aruquae]

1 minute ago, Enxchiol said:

randomized loadouts is unfortunately one of the very few ways DE can introduce any sort of challenge nowadays.

I agree, but it’s worth noting it’s not the only ways

They can launch more content that pushes you to aim at specific weak points in a game mode (or maybe against certain enemies). They could glow a faint orange to show you’re supposed to hit them. They could also take advantage of the mechanics they already have, such as parkour, and implement that into the game. 
While it’s true there are few ways… it’s not the only way. It’s just the easy way out

[Enxchiol]

17 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

I agree, but it’s worth noting it’s not the only ways

They can launch more content that pushes you to aim at specific weak points in a game mode (or maybe against certain enemies). They could glow a faint orange to show you’re supposed to hit them. They could also take advantage of the mechanics they already have, such as parkour, and implement that into the game. 
While it’s true there are few ways… it’s not the only way. It’s just the easy way out

Oh yes absolutely, and I think DE is going in a good direction with this with the Whispers update. The Murmur enemies that require you to shoot their 3 hands to die are great, and the Fragmented One is actually a difficult boss encounter(although partly because it limits our power alot, like its ability nullification, bonkers damage output and a straight up DPS cap), but I love that you actually gotta pay attention to and dodge its attacks.

Overall I'm looking forward to what DE is cooking.

Edited March 4 by Enxchiol

[Slayer-.]

42 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

I agree, but it’s worth noting it’s not the only ways

They can launch more content that pushes you to aim at specific weak points in a game mode (or maybe against certain enemies). They could glow a faint orange to show you’re supposed to hit them. They could also take advantage of the mechanics they already have, such as parkour, and implement that into the game. 
While it’s true there are few ways… it’s not the only way. It’s just the easy way out

Speaking of glow Spacekid in Duvuri can highlight hit/weak points with the #2 skill by pulsing, it highlights enemies just where to shoot them for max effect, as Helios does with the mod 'Detect Vulnerability' even though headshots always seem to work I've been noticing with Spacekid the weak points for shooting the amp appears to work better.

[Aerikx]

*Reads over a few pages sees the praise for The Fragmented One and various encounters with Damage Attenuation* 

Oh? Folks are actually happy with Damage Attenuation now? It isn't the most insulting thing DE has ever done?

I must have fallen into an alternate reality.

*Looks at the Monkey's Paw*

No new wishes have been granted yet...

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 hours ago, Aruquae said:

They can launch more content that pushes you to aim at specific weak points in a game mode (or maybe against certain enemies).

Fun fact: They can't. Or, rather, they won't.

Why not? Because of an update a long time ago called 'The Sword Alone'. In this update they committed to making sure that a player can complete any content in the game with only a Melee weapon equipped.

This is why enemies that already have clear weak-point optimisation in the way you're talking about (for example; Grineer Nox units that have a headshot weakpoint and massive DR on the rest of their body) die to Melee weapons just as fast as any other heavily-armoured enemy unit.

[Kaiga]

54 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

It isn't the most insulting thing DE has ever done?

I must have fallen into an alternate reality.

What is the difference between huge damage attenuation and an equally massive pool of health?

Do they not both require lengthy kill times and dump down DPS to defeat? 

How would you design a boss that doesn't have gigantic invuln phases to prevent being bowled over in a single burst?

6 hours ago, Enxchiol said:

Yes, that is absolutely true, but you have to consider, no matter how complex your enemy AI or movement or mechanics are, none of it matters if enemies get killed within seconds of spawning and players can be literally invulnerable.

The unfortunate truth is, for any sort of challenge to be possible in Warframe, our power level has to be toned down one way or another. And seeing how most of the community starts pissing and S#&amp;&#036;ting itself when any sort of nerf is mentioned(remember the proposed Mirage changes just a bit ago?), randomized loadouts is unfortunately one of the very few ways DE can introduce any sort of challenge nowadays.

I don't think that is so. 

Making for example, large numbers of quickly spawning enemies who need to be killed fast would allow "Too OP" characters like mesa to have their fun, certain high value VIP miniboss mobs immune to CC (not eximus, think the mounted dax) that need to be fought up close, in missions to throw off mindless mob clear and give melee or single target frames something to do is an option, enemies that have mechanics where you need to collect things they drop with parkour to break defenses, the list of fun and interactive elements goes on, rather than just more hordes of 2016 AI pathing mob reskins. 

If helldivers can figure how how to do this, while still keeping the few against many feel, then warframe certainly can.

Edited March 4 by Kaiga