Nourish isn't the problem

[_Anise_]

 

1 hour ago, Nira said:

That was precisely my point,

sorry it seemed to have gone over my head, I guess that makes sense!

also I wanted to like harrow but actually hate the Thurible skill, it feels stopping everything to wind up a childs toy so it can keep going to the point where If I ever revisit him I would probably drop it and get my energy elsewhere, but it probably wouldn't be nourish, it still needs a source of energy to amplify and ( I think ) its overrated.

come to think of it maybe the last time I tried him was before helminth was a thing I can't quite remember but that defiantly opens up some more options for him.

though the "meta" is to replace his chains with pillage, I might actually enjoy having nullstar or the reworked eclypse for the defense portion over Thurible to double down on his tanky overshields but I mean with his haste roar might just be better because it double dips then get armor strip from a companion if needed...

anyway my tldr:

someone got mad at me for replacing #1 on citrine and I used companions / energize for my economy even at 75% efficiency I have no issues, people will get their energy elsewhere if they want to replace warframes energy genrating abilities ? all nerfing nourish does is give us less fun things to play around with in helminth which already has a LOAD of fluff that isn't ever worth taking

edit: a though is like ... "it's popular and powerful skill so that's bad" vs "it's popular but terrible compared to the main version then it's aok in our books _/" why ?

Edited February 29 by _Anise_

[SneakyErvin]

The fun thing is that the complaining meta players dont realize the buff they are potentially getting. Nourish itself will be great for energy management even with a nerf to that specific part of the skill. Nourish will be even better as a viral applicator if that part of the skill gets nerfed aswell. Since just as it is with everything else, viral is a stat you preferably want the right weighting for. So the lower it is on Nourish the better, since we really only need it to proc reliable, since it cant go beyond 10 stacks anyways.

This means for frames that invest alot into strength, a reduction to the viral stat will be a huge buff for their status proccing, and for others a minor buff. But it seems like people are living in the pre-Grendel rework mindset, when Nourish was a seperate uncombinable self status checking damage buff. That went the way of the dodo with the rework when it got turned into viral. Now it is a status that competes with all your other statuses you've modded for.

I cant count the times I've actually thought "man it would be nice with a lower Nourish version" or "wish I could make Nourish unaffected by strength".

[_Anise_]

also I dont need viral from nourish all my weapons are already built for viral meaning I would need to rebuild them

then using those same weapons on every other warframe would mean having to put nourish, Wyrd Scythes on everything or run a panzer....

 

 

[trst]

8 hours ago, Hexerin said:

If your builds are zero forma, you're either running normal star chart (and thus your opinion on balance is pretty much irrelevant) or your team is carrying you (because you're dead weight on Steel Path).

How to say "I've never experimented with builds on my own" without saying "I've never experimented with builds on my own".

Forma is a luxury mostly for squeezing damage out of low tier weapons, not some mandatory requirement for Steel Path. Many, if not most, weapons can clear all of SP perfectly fine with no investment beyond a Catalyst. And if you want to talk about issues in co-op rarely does one's weapon even matter if you get even a single player running some AOE/nuke spam build as well the damage a weapon does means nothing so long as it's capable of killing enemies.

Yeah good for you that your 4 Forma weapon build is dealing 1m+ DPS, meanwhile the only enemies being fought have HP in the tens of thousands.

[PR1D3]

On 2024-02-23 at 8:01 PM, TARINunit9 said:

I'm gunna be honest here, I don't know what Nourish actually does. I just press 2 as Grendel every now and then because that's kinda the whole point of the frame, eating things, and assume that it helps out in some way.

So lemme look this up... *Type type type*

Oh, wow, 100% viral damage to all weapons? So it's like Roar but way better? Ok that answers the question:

Nourish is used because it's an even stronger version of Roar. And keep in mind, Roar was nerfed on Helminth's launch day because they knew it would be the most used Helminth otherwise. Nourish is going straight into the nerf zone until it's no better than Roar

On a side note, also if you get tagged by an enemy (or Combat Discipline Damage, my personal favorite) it lets out a decent AOE that staggers enemies and applies viral stacks on everything hit. It max stacks on Grendel but I think give a single for everyone else. It's a pretty neat ability.

That being said, I'm now going to be slightly serious and say that I think Helminth was a mistake where if DE had been doing small look overs on frame kits throughout the year(s) they wouldn't had needed to use the kit bandaid that is Helminth.

[SirZorba]

The problem with Nourish is that it gives multiple *incredibly* useful things rolled into a single ability, one of which is near universally useful and the other is the meta status. It should never have been given both the energy buff and viral, and I strongly lean towards removing the energy component entirely. It has completely supplanted frames that are designed to provide energy to the team like Harrow or Trinity(though she needs some work in general). It's so omnipresent that it's gotten to the point of people telling you to replace THURIBLE because nourish is better. Absolute insanity.

If it was just the viral component it would still be really strong because viral is meta(which is a whole other topic of how out of control this game's damage scaling has gotten), but it wouldn't be nearly as ridiculous as it is now. And without the energy component maybe they could add the self heal back to the subsume in its place(if needed) since that's a pretty minor benefit. And it would keep some semblance of a connection to the ability's name, because viral isn't exactly the first thing that comes to mind with a name like "Nourish."

Edited March 2 by SirZorba

[Marvelous_A]

1 hour ago, SirZorba said:

The problem with Nourish is that it gives multiple *incredibly* useful things rolled into a single ability, further compounded by the fact that the specific status it provides is the meta. It should never have been given both the energy buff and viral, and I strongly lean towards removing the energy component entirely. It has completely supplanted frames that are designed to provide energy to the team like Harrow or Trinity(though she needs some work in general). It's so omnipresent that it's gotten to the point of people telling you to replace THURIBLE because nourish is better. Absolute insanity.

If it was just the viral component it would still be really strong because viral is meta(which is a whole other topic of how out of control this game's damage scaling has gotten), but it wouldn't be nearly as ridiculous as it is now. And without the energy component maybe they could add the self heal back to the subsume in its place(if needed) since that's a pretty minor benefit. And it would keep some semblance of a connection to the ability's name, because viral isn't exactly the first thing that comes to mind with a name like "Nourish."

I don't know. I think it's fine as is, viral and energy are nice but the ugly animation balances them out.

[Hexerin]

I just want them to introduce a new Helminth ability that revolves entirely around generating energy and nothing else. Something like spend 50 energy to gain a buff, and while the buff is active, killing enemies grants stacking energy regen. That way, every frame can have access to the energy regen part of Nourish without having to worry about it being nerfed due to the viral part of Nourish.

[trst]

26 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

I just want them to introduce a new Helminth ability that revolves entirely around generating energy and nothing else. Something like spend 50 energy to gain a buff, and while the buff is active, killing enemies grants stacking energy regen. That way, every frame can have access to the energy regen part of Nourish without having to worry about it being nerfed due to the viral part of Nourish.

Fractured Blast, Dispensary, and Lycath's Hunt already exist.

[RichardKam]

1小时前 , Hexerin 说:

I just want them to introduce a new Helminth ability that revolves entirely around generating energy and nothing else. Something like spend 50 energy to gain a buff, and while the buff is active, killing enemies grants stacking energy regen. That way, every frame can have access to the energy regen part of Nourish without having to worry about it being nerfed due to the viral part of Nourish.

The value of nourish is more than energy regen. It is an energy multiplier that scales with strength.

In that regards, it is more powerful than arcane energize because nourish multiplies everything.

[Hexerin]

1 hour ago, trst said:

Fractured Blast, Dispensary, and Lycath's Hunt already exist.

Fractured Blast requires massive investment into ability strength to actually be worthwhile. You'd need 1,000% ability strength to get guaranteed energy orb drops, which is literally impossible to do. It's not even remotely comparable, and doesn't fit the criteria of being an energy skill.

Dispensary only works if you can afford extreme investment in ability duration. Very few frames want that much ability duration, and getting that much involves sacrificing elsewhere (which generally means sacrificing what the frames do want). Again, doesn't fit the criteria of an energy skill.

Lycath's Hunt suffers a reduction to 50% energy orb drop chance, which is also fixed value (can't be increased). Additionally, it requires specifically headshot kills (the actual direct hit of the headshot has to get the kill to count) to drop energy orbs. That is not only difficult to do against more than half the game's enemies, it's also outright impossible against many too. Plus, with the high energy cost of 75 energy to activate, you need at least four orb drops (eight headshot kills, on average) before you even start gaining energy. It's the best option of the three you stated, but it's still a pretty garbage option.

These are all also not just simple energy skills. They all have other utility, and are subject to balance passes for reasons unrelated to the energy part. The same issue I described for why I would love a new Helminth ability (as in, an ability derived from Helminth itself, not a warframe subsume) instead of relying on Nourish.

42 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

The value of nourish is more than energy regen. It is an energy multiplier that scales with strength.

In that regards, it is more powerful than arcane energize because nourish multiplies everything.

That's not really relevant to my point in my post. My point is that it'd be nice to have something that serves the purpose of energy gain (for those who are taking Nourish for the energy gain, which is the only reason I ever bother with Nourish myself), and have it be something directly from Helminth itself so that it isn't caught in the crossfire of unrelated balance concerns.

[trst]

13 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Fractured Blast requires massive investment into ability strength to actually be worthwhile. You'd need 1,000% ability strength to get guaranteed energy orb drops, which is literally impossible to do. It's not even remotely comparable, and doesn't fit the criteria of being an energy skill.

Dispensary only works if you can afford extreme investment in ability duration. Very few frames want that much ability duration, and getting that much involves sacrificing elsewhere (which generally means sacrificing what the frames do want). Again, doesn't fit the criteria of an energy skill.

Lycath's Hunt suffers a reduction to 50% energy orb drop chance, which is also fixed value (can't be increased). Additionally, it requires specifically headshot kills (the actual direct hit of the headshot has to get the kill to count) to drop energy orbs. That is not only difficult to do against more than half the game's enemies, it's also outright impossible against many too. Plus, with the high energy cost of 75 energy to activate, you need at least four orb drops (eight headshot kills, on average) before you even start gaining energy. It's the best option of the three you stated, but it's still a pretty garbage option.

These are all also not just simple energy skills. They all have other utility, and are subject to balance passes for reasons unrelated to the energy part. The same issue I described for why I would love a new Helminth ability (as in, an ability derived from Helminth itself, not a warframe subsume) instead of relying on Nourish.

Got it, they're all bad because you have arbitrary requirements for each individual one.

You don't require guaranteed Orb drops, an increased chance on drops vs effectively every enemy is still a considerable increase in energy drops. Especially for builds that want strength/range.

Dispensary does need duration to be efficient on it's own but doesn't require an "extreme" amount of it. It's biggest draw back is in being slow and stationary making it the better choice for endless/static missions with frames that want duration.

And Lycath's Hunt is just fine unless you have a condition that forces you to shoot enemies in the feet or you're not willing to use other specific upgrades. Also the duration is potentially infinite so long as you're not killing enemies instantly. And if you're in a situation in which enemies die before you can get 5 status procs on them I question if you even need energy for that mission in the first place.

Also builds don't exist in a vacuum. The investment of just Equilibrium, a Violet Shard, or Amber Shards turn all of these into massive sources of energy. Plus those two options are already strong with Eximus dropping guaranteed Orbs and the other ways we have to generate health orbs.

 

But really by your logic Nourish is also a bad ability for energy. Since it's still reliant on the RNG of energy drops or requires it to be on a frame with innate energy regen/external sources of regen. Plus if you burn through energy too fast it still requires you to also slot in Flow/Shards to make use of excess energy due to how "low" base energy capacity is.

So too would your suggestion be as energy regen can't apply when a channeled ability is active. And not spawning orbs means an Eximus/Disruptor or poor energy management can leave you stuck at zero and thus reliant on orb RNG or other methods.

Also it's naive to think that an ability that only does one thing would be immune to changes. Especially when we're talking about energy sources.

[Berzerkules]

26 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Fractured Blast requires massive investment into ability strength to actually be worthwhile. You'd need 1,000% ability strength to get guaranteed energy orb drops, which is literally impossible to do. It's not even remotely comparable, and doesn't fit the criteria of being an energy skill.

Dispensary only works if you can afford extreme investment in ability duration. Very few frames want that much ability duration, and getting that much involves sacrificing elsewhere (which generally means sacrificing what the frames do want). Again, doesn't fit the criteria of an energy skill.

Lycath's Hunt suffers a reduction to 50% energy orb drop chance, which is also fixed value (can't be increased). Additionally, it requires specifically headshot kills (the actual direct hit of the headshot has to get the kill to count) to drop energy orbs. That is not only difficult to do against more than half the game's enemies, it's also outright impossible against many too. Plus, with the high energy cost of 75 energy to activate, you need at least four orb drops (eight headshot kills, on average) before you even start gaining energy. It's the best option of the three you stated, but it's still a pretty garbage option.

These are all also not just simple energy skills. They all have other utility, and are subject to balance passes for reasons unrelated to the energy part. The same issue I described for why I would love a new Helminth ability (as in, an ability derived from Helminth itself, not a warframe subsume) instead of relying on Nourish.

That's not really relevant to my point in my post. My point is that it'd be nice to have something that serves the purpose of energy gain (for those who are taking Nourish for the energy gain, which is the only reason I ever bother with Nourish myself), and have it be something directly from Helminth itself so that it isn't caught in the crossfire of unrelated balance concerns.

Spectrosiphon might be a better solution with it's flat 50% chance of energy orb on death unaffected by mods.

It's also is decent cc and pairs well with eruption. 

[Hexerin]

5 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Spectrosiphon might be a better solution with it's flat 50% chance of energy orb on death unaffected by mods.

It's also is decent cc and pairs well with eruption. 

It's basically an inferior version of Lycath's Hunt, having the same cost but a significantly less flexible trigger condition.

[Berzerkules]

4 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

It's basically an inferior version of Lycath's Hunt, having the same cost but a significantly less flexible trigger condition.

Here is a zero energy cost method of free energy

nautilus cordon+helstrum+manifold bond+synth mods+equilibrium=nice pile of health orbs free energy grouped up for you.

There are so many ways to trivialize the energy economy of this game now, it should be fairly easy to pair at least one method that suits your specific loadout.

[Hexerin]

2 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Here is a zero energy cost method of free energy

nautilus cordon+helstrum+manifold bond+synth mods+equilibrium=nice pile of health orbs free energy grouped up for you.

There are so many ways to trivialize the energy economy of this game now, it should be fairly easy to pair at least one method that suits your specific loadout.

Which is ultimately irrelevant to my original post in this tangent. I'm fully aware of the full array of options for energy gain.

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Fractured Blast requires massive investment into ability strength to actually be worthwhile.

That is a myth.

You can get extremely good use out of Fractured Blast from Helminth without massive strength investments since it practically scales with both range and strength to improve the yield of orbs. And in the content where you likely need the extra energy source you'll have plenty of enemies to cover in order to allow great sync with the range stat.

 

[MrDugan]

It's not even that the other abilities are that bad, or even that Nourish is that much better.  The actual problem is that because of how bad so many statuses are and how hard enemy durability scales, Viral is sitting at the top.  It's not absolutely required, but...  it's there for a reason.  Add to that how trash the base energy economy is, and of course people are going to take an option that improves that.  Someone is bound to come yell at me about how many options we have for energy gain, and that's why I said base energy economy.  Abilities are not only basically required on many frames just for survivability, but they're the fun part of the game.  Treating them all like ults that you only use once a mission is bad design, so the economy is bandaided with things like Energize to make it not suck.  But if it sucks, people are going to take the best methods of making it not suck, and that's Nourish for a lot of folks that want both their arcane slots.  Considering it fixes energy econ and also provides viral, it's zero surprise to anyone that it's the most used.

Having other options, not just in Helminth, but options for statuses and damage builds that are on par with viral without being viral will mitigate that.  Having a better base energy economy will also help that.  I believe this, because I run a lot of off meta stuff, and also a lot of self-priming meta stuff that has viral, and I run an Energize crutch as well as other options to fix energy econ.  Because I already do all that, I don't use Nourish on really any frame other than Grendel.  But I don't like having to do all that either, because it limits build diversity.

[Cyrefy]

The reason nourish is so used is because you can make 90% of weapons that normally have no use because they are extremely weak, actually usable, in addition to opening up space for mods allowing us to use other mods that we never use or even other arcanes that we also never use, that is, nourishment allows us to play with the useless things they create, mark my words, if the use of nourish decreases, so will the variety of mods, arcanes and weapons.

[Lord_Chibi]

On 2024-02-23 at 7:58 PM, Waeleto said:

again, how many of these abilities over versatility ? give us better options and we'll use them

Dispensary exists, remember all those complaints about aoe weapons? It gives ammo and, thx to equilibrium's buff, consistent energy supplies to the entire squad.

Decoy is getting buffed so it might actually be a decent ability for frames with weak defenses if you don't want to worry about overguard nullifying cc.

You mentioned banish not being good, it definitely is useful for npc defense missions for any non-limbo mains (aka, most of us).

Eclipse is going to finally be a decent non-armor related tanking ability even though it'll lose some of its damage, making it a mini equinox in its usage.

[Lord_Chibi]

On 2024-02-29 at 11:08 AM, _Anise_ said:

 

also I wanted to like harrow but actually hate the Thurible skill, it feels stopping everything to wind up a childs toy so it can keep going to the point where If I ever revisit him I would probably drop it and get my energy elsewhere, but it probably wouldn't be nourish, it still needs a source of energy to amplify and ( I think ) its overrated.

 

You could always subsume dispensary for a guaranteed 125 energy every 5 seconds with Equilibrium. Alternatively you could also use amber shards with it (or stack them with Equilibrium) for extra energy. 

There's also a chance based off of power strength that you'll get double the orbs so you get 200 energy instead of 100 from the hp orbs.

[trst]

2 hours ago, Cyrefy said:

The reason nourish is so used is because you can make 90% of weapons that normally have no use because they are extremely weak, actually usable, in addition to opening up space for mods allowing us to use other mods that we never use or even other arcanes that we also never use, that is, nourishment allows us to play with the useless things they create, mark my words, if the use of nourish decreases, so will the variety of mods, arcanes and weapons.

Oh no players will need to learn how to mod their weapons and/or just use a different damage buff instead of using this one catch-all crutch.

If variety decreases it's entirely because those players never learned how to mod/upgrade a weapon into being good or they're chronically obsessed with big numbers.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 minutes ago, trst said:

Oh no players will need to learn how to mod their weapons and/or just use a different damage buff instead of using this one catch-all crutch.

If variety decreases it's entirely because those players never learned how to mod/upgrade a weapon into being good or they're chronically obsessed with big numbers.

Be careful, you'll be called a white knight by suggesting at all, that players make the slightest attempt to learn more about the game. 

[Cyrefy]

2 minutes ago, trst said:

Oh no players will need to learn how to mod their weapons and/or just use a different damage buff instead of using this one catch-all crutch.

If variety decreases it's entirely because those players never learned how to mod/upgrade a weapon into being good or they're chronically obsessed with big numbers.

Oh yes, all the weapons are extremely balanced and we can make them all strong with any warframe and without the need for rivens, nevermind, sorry.

They could nerf roar and the future eclipse too since we don't need them.

[Cyrefy]

52 minutes ago, trst said:

Oh no players will need to learn how to mod their weapons and/or just use a different damage buff instead of using this one catch-all crutch.

If variety decreases it's entirely because those players never learned how to mod/upgrade a weapon into being good or they're chronically obsessed with big numbers.

I know this may sound ironic, because saying that something that is being used more than all other options is bringing variety can be a little weird.

Look, it's not whether you can get from point A to point B, but how many WAYS you can get from point A to point B.

I think this would be easily resolved if the arcanes were separated into categories, thus allowing us to use more arcanes in warframes, for example.

There are several things that we don't use in the game, some of them we don't use because we can't give up some other mods or arcanes, I think it's a waste, because some augments for example would be very "fun" but not "useful", you know?

Why not balance it?

I just wanted to say that nourish being at the top demonstrates the size of our need to use other things, most of the time for pure fun.
 
Or we're just tired of using the same mods, the same arcanes, the same everything.

My experience with nourish was that I was able to build with much more freedom, making builds that would only be possible with specific rivens or warframes.

I would really like them to make this variety maintain itself without us needing nourish.

And you don't need to flex, Warframe is an easy game.

Edited March 5 by Cyrefy