Eclipse Update (Dev response)

[Ampathetiic]

56 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The problem with alot of the reasoning around this and the wording of the feedback thread is the following.

Even if they had said and stated that "it might get nerfed" the outcome of the votes would have been the same. Since we wouldnt know how it would be changed, we just know that we'd vote between, a permanent guaranteed buff that is toggled, or the old one with unreliable use based on light sources around the maps together with a light source fix for maps that dont work.

People would have voted for the consistant buff without a doubt. This because the sporadic Mirage players outnumber the die hard "I've memorized all light positions on every map" Mirage players by the thousands most likely. For me it was a no brainer to place the vote on the toggle, even if I assumed it would get a nerf in return for always being active at max. Since I simply prefer reliable and consistant things over situational ones.

I don't see where the problem is. My second paragraph assumes the same exact balance changes, but different communication, because I care about the communication more than the balance changes. I'm not under the impression that the community would magically all accept the changes because DE was honest, or even that they'd change their vote (I've seen the toggle suggestions for years).

[Numerounius]

14 hours ago, RA1313ITS said:

Should I switch Eclipse to Roar if/when these changes go through? 

Roar is probably the best option since it boosts everything including warframe abilities whereas eclipse only boosts weapon damage.  They showed off that roar had more usage in helminth than eclipse but are still nerfing eclipse in helminth on top of it. I've even put on roar for my nuke Mirage build since it boosts the damage of the mines..

In places where eclipse is widely used there will be people doing testing giving the best options moving forward.  Like open world hunts.

But I don't think they are done with the changes to eclipse and I don't suspect these are the final changes given the mods are very hard at work trying to make this topic a megathread without any indication of it being so. If both are about equal in terms of power level I'd say eclipse is worth it if you want something that is recastable and don't care about ability damage or finding a use case for the DR.

And this also hinges on Roar having no changes to its kit with Eclipse getting these exact changes which is not something that I would 100% count on.

[Redrigoth]

Good job guys. Mirage has been saved from irrelevancy.

Fie on you naysayers that always argue for the sake of arguing and discourage feedback while encouraging a "just lie down and take it" mentality

DE made an update thread:

 

[Voltage]

23 minutes ago, Redrigoth said:

Good job guys. Mirage has been saved from irrelevancy.

If Mirage was irrelevant without this update, I have concerns for people's loadouts lol.

24 minutes ago, Redrigoth said:

Fie on you naysayers that always argue for the sake of arguing and discourage feedback while encouraging a "just lie down and take it" mentality

Enjoy the massively nerfed Helminth Eclipse and all the previous bugs in tow. Surely anyone opposed to the idea of reversing the initial proposal wanted a bad deal on purpose.

[Waeleto]

1 minute ago, Voltage said:

If Mirage was irrelevant without this update, I have concerns for people's loadouts lol.

Enjoy the massively nerfed Helminth Eclipse and all the previous bugs in tow. Surely anyone opposed to the idea of reversing the initial proposal wanted a bad deal on purpose.

I can't believe you're STILL arguing that it was good, smh ...

[Numerounius]

Just now, Voltage said:

Enjoy the massively nerfed Helminth Eclipse and all the previous bugs in tow. Surely anyone opposed to the idea of reversing the initial proposal wanted a bad deal on purpose.

What bugs does eclipse have? Only one that I'm aware of is total eclipse not applying to new allies created during it which is probably just a niche interaction.

[Voltage]

14 minutes ago, Numerounius said:

What bugs does eclipse have? Only one that I'm aware of is total eclipse not applying to new allies created during it which is probably just a niche interaction.

There's a few, but they are already documented elsewhere. I was already lambasted for mentioning bugs in my comments prior, so I rather just not say and let people enjoy what they think the ability works like now.

Whether these bugs are actually fixed in Dante Unbound is on DE. It may end up like GunCO/CO where most players don't know it has many bugs, and it just rots in obscurity even though it's the pinnacle of many builds.

Eclipse granting additional base damage would have resolved those issues. Oh well.

[Numerounius]

10 minutes ago, Voltage said:

If Mirage was irrelevant without this update, I have concerns for people's loadouts lol.

Meanwhile subsumed Roar is on more loadouts than subsumed eclipse and that somehow isn't being nerfed. Those people are the ones laughing all the way to the bank.

[Ampathetiic]

So they reverted the Mirage change, but more heavily nerfed Eclipse on Helminth. I can see why people are upset, but I'm mostly satisfied now that they're more in alignment with their previous statements.  It seems like Eclipse will be a bad pick as a pure damage boost, but will be more of a hybrid ability, which is probably how they envision the ability being used. Now you'll likely pick Eclipse for the damage reduction, and use the damage boost when you don't need the reduction. I'm not sure how applicable that'll be, but maybe on someone like Banshee?

Edited February 27 by Ampathetiic

[alchemystn2o]

Billions of DMG back on the menu, bois n gurls.  😆

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-02-23 at 11:52 AM, NekroArts said:

"We let [current] Eclipse be a multiplier due to it mostly being out of players' agency on what effect is applied; so you had instances where one side of the buff had more presence than the other. That uncontrollable factor was a key reason to why the buff was a multiplier. New Eclipse gives total agency to players, flat-lining those [mostly] uncontrollable shifts, thus the change from multiplier to additive" -DE most likely. 

Nah, I think it would be more about how the unreliable effects of old eclipse justified the strength increase, but the new version would be extremely overpowered for no reason whatsoever. Millions of damage of overkill versus less millions of damage of overkill would only, maybe, perhaps, kinda matter in level cap runs, which shouldn't matter to any of us and doesn't matter to DE. Even still, mastering the desired effects of old eclipse outside of the simulacrum (which I bet most people will base their opinions on, instead of actual gameplay) relied on knowing each tileset, movement and weapon fire timing, especially while parkouring and running. Sorry, but I have a hard time believing this is what was happening. 

[Ecustom]

so they reverted eclipse back to multiplicative.

Helminth version Eclipse should be higher than Roar 30%.

cause eclipse buff apply to WEAPONS only, but roar is UNIVERSAL damage buff.

[Skoomaseller]

8 hours ago, Voltage said:

If Mirage was irrelevant without this update, I have concerns for people's loadouts lol.

Enjoy the massively nerfed Helminth Eclipse and all the previous bugs in tow. Surely anyone opposed to the idea of reversing the initial proposal wanted a bad deal on purpose.

you're being oddly pessimistic in this thread. Everything okay? 

your point about DE "sticking to their guns" and reigning in our power would only make sense if it were done across the board, and not just one specific thing at a time.

I totally understand your point and to an extent I agree, but not when it's done this way, with no announcement. By no announcement I mean the unannounced proposed change to how Eclipse damage buff is calculated, not the nerf to Helminth version. 

Edited February 28 by Skoomaseller

[DrivaMain]

9 hours ago, Redrigoth said:

Good job guys. Mirage has been saved from irrelevancy.

Those who say Mirage is irrelevant even if the "nerfed" proposal goes to the live build seem to overlook the hilariously bonkers yet underrated room-clearing potential of this Warframe.

Either way, I am indifferent about the changes. 

[Traumtulpe]

Since Mirage got changed to a multiplicative damage increase, can we do the same for Chroma? If not... why?

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 6 minutos, Traumtulpe dijo:

Since Mirage got changed to a multiplicative damage increase, can we do the same for Chroma? If not... why?

no, because chroma only deals damage.

[NovaUmbral]

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Since Mirage got changed to a multiplicative damage increase, can we do the same for Chroma? If not... why?

Vex used to be multiplicative but it was a bug since the release of Chroma, DE kept it in and didn't bother fixing it at the time but made a statement about going back to resolving it in the future, suspiciously it was after Chroma one shotting eidolon limbs that Vex was "fixed" to additive buff. Their reasoning? "To make Vex armor inline with other *additive* damage buffers such as *Roar* & *Eclipse*".

However the real issue of Vex armor wasn't it being multiplicative, it was triple dipping on innate elemental weapons like Arca Plasmor, thats why eidolon limbs were being one shot.

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, NovaUmbral said:

Vex used to be multiplicative but it was a bug since the release of Chroma, DE kept it in and didn't bother fixing it at the time but made a statement about going back to resolving it in the future, suspiciously it was after Chroma one shotting eidolon limbs that Vex was "fixed" to additive buff. Their reasoning? "To make Vex armor inline with other *additive* damage buffers such as *Roar* & *Eclipse*".

However the real issue of Vex armor wasn't it being multiplicative, it was triple dipping on innate elemental weapons like Arca Plasmor, thats why eidolon limbs were being one shot.

All of that is completely irrelevant, the point is that Chroma has been changed to base damage and nobody likes it, but when Mirage gets changed to base damage and half the players don't like it it gets changed back. It's weird.

[NovaUmbral]

2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

All of that is completely irrelevant, the point is that Chroma has been changed to base damage and nobody likes it, but when Mirage gets changed to base damage and half the players don't like it it gets changed back. It's weird.

Im just giving you context as to why its not multiplicative anymore. I'm agreeing with you though, it shouldn't be additive. But people don't push back on Vex Armor anymore and have moved on, and since its not a subsume people don' care much for it sadly.

Edited February 28 by NovaUmbral

[-Grognak-]

As some people said, making Helminth eclipse 30% will make it worse than roar. Most damage increase abilities have more to offer, Eclipse only buffs weapon damage, most people use Roar, Whisper or Nourish over Eclipse. I think 100% Helminth Eclipse would be fine or at least double of Roar, otherwise there would be no point in using it.

[Voltage]

6 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

you're being oddly pessimistic in this thread. Everything okay? 

your point about DE "sticking to their guns" and reigning in our power would only make sense if it were done across the board, and not just one specific thing at a time.

I totally understand your point and to an extent I agree, but not when it's done this way, with no announcement. By no announcement I mean the unannounced proposed change to how Eclipse damage buff is calculated, not the nerf to Helminth version. 

DE needs to start somewhere, and Eclipse has been long overdue.

I'm in total agreement with the nature of the feedback (messy wording, etc.), but most of the "feedback" (especially in this thread) clearly showed that people just don't understand Eclipse or modding their gear. I bet a lot of these people are just assuming it works with GunCO/CO, hence my "clueless" remark. 

Yeah, I'm always pessimistic, but I'm also just tired, especially in threads like these where the uninformed and uneducated are the ones listened to (because it's the majority of players). It's quite sad. I'll be surprised if DE even fixes Eclipse bugs in Dante Unbound. That's just the player side. On the DE side they do the same thing year after year after year. I don't see a point in bothering, unless how I feel somehow lines up with the "target audience", but that rarely happens, so I just don't care enough and rather just educate people on what the pattern is rather than pretending you're going to change it. 

People are really out here saying how relevant 30% is while clearly displaying they have no idea how it applies, where it applies, where it doesn't apply, and how many times it applies lol. It's the same thing when people talk about Faction Damage/Roar or Primed Chamber saying how "weak" these mods are. 

This change is honestly a worse deal than the proposed Base Damage one, especially long-term. The only immediate "tragedies" with the initial nerf would be players who are soloing (originally) squad content at the same efficiency (Eidolons, Profit-Taker, etc.). A base damage Eclipse will definitely be a smaller number on screen, but the practical difference is negligible. It would also make builds more flexible for specific modding choices, because it would be functional to the years old concept of "baked in mandatory mods".

I'd really like for DE to do a multiplier squeeze so that players who understand modding can have a good time without junk like damage attenuation, and players who just want to turn their brain off can roll throw their low level missions with a bunch of diminishing returns. It wouldn't make the game any less power-creep, as we saw with the massive melee nerf in 2019.

Edited February 28 by Voltage

[Aruquae]

8 hours ago, Ecustom said:

cause eclipse buff apply to WEAPONS only, but roar is UNIVERSAL damage buff.

But but… eclipse has free DR?

That’s a good trade off honestly, free DR and bonus for weapons. 

3 hours ago, -Grognak- said:

As some people said, making Helminth eclipse 30% will make it worse than roar. Most damage increase abilities have more to offer, Eclipse only buffs weapon damage, most people use Roar, Whisper or Nourish over Eclipse. I think 100% Helminth Eclipse would be fine or at least double of Roar, otherwise there would be no point in using it.

I agree with doubling eclipse, even though it has more than just buffing on the table… it shouldn’t be as low as 30%

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Ampathetiic said:

I don't see where the problem is. My second paragraph assumes the same exact balance changes, but different communication, because I care about the communication more than the balance changes. I'm not under the impression that the community would magically all accept the changes because DE was honest, or even that they'd change their vote (I've seen the toggle suggestions for years).

My point is it would be meaningless if they specified it since it would make no difference in the end. We all know they can change what they like when they like how they like. So people being upset over this not being mentioned specifically is kind of silly in my mind, since the outcome wouldnt change eitherway.

1 hour ago, Aruquae said:

But but… eclipse has free DR?

That’s a good trade off honestly, free DR and bonus for weapons. 

I agree with doubling eclipse, even though it has more than just buffing on the table… it shouldn’t be as low as 30%

They could make it work like Roar (Bane) aswell, that way the two would be the same but different. But then they'd also have to rework the Mirage version since 200% Bane would uhm be way way way way way too much.

Roar for buffing everything and others with Bane. Eclipse for buffing weapons but not abilities or others with Bane. The trade off would be that Eclipse also offers utility through a DR buff and can be recast at will. If not, 50 or 60% final multiplicative would be fair since it only applies to weapons.

However I'm more interested in the DR buff myself now that it is guaranteed, since Roar already exsists for damage.

 

[Aruquae]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

However

True, I do hope we can get the DR in helminth… I want my hybrid Limbo build to work…

 

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But then they'd also have to rework the Mirage version since 200% Bane would uhm be way way way way way too much.

Fair, that would probably be a bit too much buffing. 

 

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

They could make it work like Roar (Bane) aswell, that way the two would be the same but different. But then they'd also have to rework the Mirage version since 200% Bane would uhm be way way way way way too much.

 

That is true, could push for that buffing ability to be in larger bosses such as Archons (for their lack of bane mods). 

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

True, I do hope we can get the DR in helminth… I want my hybrid Limbo build to work…

Hehe I'm hoping for some silly Hildryn interaction. Might also replace Halo on Nezha with it since it would remove the problem of his bugs tied to that skill, like getting 1-shot and never triggering shield gate, one of the biggest reasons I never play him since I hate unreliablity unless it is by design (hi Xaku!).