Revenant is too much of a crutch

[AntifreezeUnder0]

I would argue that at current way warframe is played,  meta minmaxers are more of an unhealthy approach , than playing revenant as his kit allows. Since meta is simply select few mechanics used on handful of weapons with copy paste setups for frames abusing same mechanic. 

Revenant you get early, prime even faster which is great frame for all of the content game provides, getting better as higher you progress.

Same as with liches/sisters at mr5 get op weapon and you are good for rest of the game, with incarnons comming to top them off.

Also running arround with meta nuke builds stealing all kills, and then yell at otehrs they didnt contribute is a thing too. They were in squad, didnt afk, its good enough.

 

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, ECCHOSIERRA said:

1) there are plenty of other "crutches" that are new player friendly. Inaros existing. Wukong existing. Invisibility frames. Frames with high damage reduction. They could delete revenant from the game and people would just move on to something else.

I literally addressed this in the OP\

Just now, ECCHOSIERRA said:

2) this sounds like youre telling on yourseld, skill wise. You shouldn't NEED 3 people acting as support frames to carry you.

Completely false and disingenuous, I just would like them to do something besides enthralling enemies. I am killing just fine. Am I carrying that loser? Am I carrying 2 losers? YES. Am i carrying 3 losers? YES. Enough. Bear your own weight.

1 minute ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

What is there to discuss. Youre mad that not everyone wants to play the way you want them to.

Bruh, man up and face the issue. These Revenants are just sitting there doing nothing while I ensure the mission succeeds. And they are also extremely low level. Pull your weight, that's all I'm asking.

3 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

And crying victim when people arent super friendly to said criticism.

What is there to discuss. Youre mad that not everyone wants to play the way you want them to.

Level a legitimate counterpoint and we'll discuss it. This bullS#&$ "go play a different game" "don't worry about the game" mentality does nobody any favors, Except the people who rely on it I guess. And like I said, I can't blame them, DE created the situation, it's just unfortunate.

6 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

This isnt WoW or something, somebody doesnt have to be buffing the whole squad to be useful. 

Being immortal while contributing nothing is a problem, do you disagree?

[CrownOfShadows]

8 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

The damage thing is a different, broader, fundamental issue imho but i lose sympathy for OP because i feel like if youre gonna bash people for not being able to do enough damage, you should be far enough along to be able to handle the damage requirements in this game yourself. 

But. 

 

Yeah. Every day i play this game i see people post things like "is this build good?" And make it clear they have no idea how to mod properly.

 

Well I'll bash you for pretending that players being immortal while doing nothing is ok. It's not. Contribute or why are you here? Oh because you can be? Not good enough, sorry. What else you got? This is about players doing nothing. Ok, imagine you're in a defense with 3 Revenants. Just imagine that. Who is doing all the work? The Revenants? No. YOU?!?!?! Yes.

6 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

 They were in squad, didnt afk, its good enough.

Sorry it's not. Contributing nothing is almost the exact same thing as afk. Whether that's their intention or not. It sucks

Edited March 3 by CrownOfShadows

[ReddyDisco]

So you are upset that other people can play a high lvl mission and not die? wtf

not dying is contributing in of itself, imagine if you had to revive every few seconds

 

[Raikh]

4 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

This is unfortunate, but the only way to combat it is the most egregious offender at a time

You can make the symptoms go away every time they pop up, but that will never solve the problem if you don't treat the root cause. I think survivability is in a really awkward spot and you will never get players away from "crutches" if you don't adress that. Sure you can buy some time by hitting Revenant for now, but its not a real solution.

9 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I agree with this, but the issue is that Revenant appears to to be the de facto answer to this issue. Is it the player's fault or DE's fault? Honestly i'm not sure. Maybe a little of both.

I don't think its ever the players fault if the game are presents them an obvious solution to a problem they have. DE created both the problem and the solution and its their job to figure things out if the pieces don't fit like they should.

13 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Hm, yes and no. I agree it's not a healthy ability. Removing Revenant's invincibility actually would encourage more DR usage (stuff like Baruuk, who isn't immortal but just has great survivability)

I think what adds to Revenant being in the spot he is, is because he is encouraged to build Power Strength with basically no regard for anything else, which also makes him an excellent user of any subsumed Buffing Abilities. So he also becomes a relatively strong weapon platform and thus allows players to play the game with minimal knowledge on Warframe abilities just using the most accessible meta weapons they can find.
So unless Mesmer Skin is hit incredibly hard I don't think players will really budge on him much, Someone like Baruuk is tanky but you can't just make him a weapon platform stacking Power Strength and go brrr. And that applies to practically any Frame that relies more on proper ability usage with more nunanced build requirements. And especially newer players will be much less inclined to explore all that early on. Which is why I think its important that survivability and the general power progression in the game get smoothed out so that players can be more focussed on exploring and developing playstyles than just worrying about dying all the time while doing unimpressive damage.

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, ReddyDisco said:

So you are upset that other people can play a high lvl mission and not die? wtf

not dying is contributing in of itself, imagine if you had to revive every few seconds

 

Yes, imagine if I had to revive every few seconds.... or if people played ANYTHING besides Revenant? Let that sink in.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

2 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I literally addressed this in the OP\

Completely false and disingenuous, I just would like them to do something besides enthralling enemies. I am killing just fine. Am I carrying that loser? Am I carrying 2 losers? YES. Am i carrying 3 losers? YES. Enough. Bear your own weight.

Bruh, man up and face the issue. These Revenants are just sitting there doing nothing while I ensure the mission succeeds. And they are also extremely low level. Pull your weight, that's all I'm asking.

Level a legitimate counterpoint and we'll discuss it. This bullS#&$ "go play a different game" "don't worry about the game" mentality does nobody any favors, Except the people who rely on it I guess. And like I said, I can't blame them, DE created the situation, it's just unfortunate.

Being immortal while contributing nothing is a problem, do you disagree?

1) you pointed it out in OP, but just because you "addressed it" doesnt mean that fact makes changing Revenant alone, not productive, irrelevant.

2) what i find false and disingenuous, is the claim that you have all these revenants in your matches just standing around doing nothing, not killing enemies, not distracting enemies from you or the objective, not helping with the objective, not doing anything at all. Just chilling and enthralling enemies. Just because. 

I dont understand how you can be good enough at the game to carry 3 "losers" in any given activity yet apparently still struggling enough with things that 3 teammates who can stay alive and provide crowd control, arent helping enough for you not salt my fries.

3) "man up and face the issue"? Counter point how about you accept the fact you're making an issue out of nothing. While im at it who cares if they're "low level"? MR =/= skill.

4) you cant just come here, throw an emotional hissy fit about a made up problem, then snap off on anyone who disagrees with you, then automatically dismiss anything contrary to your emotional diatribe as "invalid because you said so", then expect to be taken seriously.

5) if i join a public squad, and theyre *not dying*, and theyre killing enemies, or at bare minimum distracting them from me and the objective so theyre not hurting me or the objective, they arent "contributing nothing". 

 

This isnt ranked siege or something there's no reason to make it this sweaty. None. Why are you so dependent on them? 

 

[Aerikx]

Man what is it with the Warframe Community and wanting to control others/tell them how to play?

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, Raikh said:

You can make the symptoms go away every time they pop up, but that will never solve the problem if you don't treat the root cause. I think survivability is in a really awkward spot and you will never get players away from "crutches" if you don't adress that. Sure you can buy some time by hitting Revenant for now, but its not a real solution.

I don't think its ever the players fault if the game are presents them an obvious solution to a problem they have. DE created both the problem and the solution and its their job to figure things out if the pieces don't fit like they should.

I think what adds to Revenant being in the spot he is, is because he is encouraged to build Power Strength with basically no regard for anything else, which also makes him an excellent user of any subsumed Buffing Abilities. So he also becomes a relatively strong weapon platform and thus allows players to play the game with minimal knowledge on Warframe abilities just using the most accessible meta weapons they can find.
So unless Mesmer Skin is hit incredibly hard I don't think players will really budge on him much, Someone like Baruuk is tanky but you can't just make him a weapon platform stacking Power Strength and go brrr. And that applies to practically any Frame that relies more on proper ability usage with more nunanced build requirements. And especially newer players will be much less inclined to explore all that early on. Which is why I think its important that survivability and the general power progression in the game get smoothed out so that players can be more focussed on exploring and developing playstyles than just worrying about dying all the time while doing unimpressive damage.

Well, yes, I agree with you mostly. As addressed in the OP there are many ways for players to circumvent damage. However DR (whether Baruuk or the new OP intended Mirage Eclipse <cough>) is fundamentally different. DR still has an element of danger, whereas invulnerability doesn't. I don't like the scale of the DR (probably closer to 65% than 90% would be good), but it's still better than NOTHING aka Revenant. And stuff like Limbo, Loki, Ash & Octavia have their limitations (get caught? you're screwed)

[Raikh]

18 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Yeah. Every day i play this game i see people post things like "is this build good?" And make it clear they have no idea how to mod properly.

You just have to take a look at Overframe to get a good impression at how low the general knowledge level of the playerbase is. But at the same time it also shows a huge concern for just survivability. So many Frame Builds are Double to Triple Umbra Builds with Adaptation and whatever else they can find to get the eHP up, even on Frames where it virtually makes no sense and the returns are more than questionable and in some cases there are none at all.

So there is definitely a trend with players being more preoccupied with staying alive than everything else and I think that is an issue that also makes the knowledge problem worse.

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, Aerikx said:

Man what is it with the Warframe Community and wanting to control others/tell them how to play?

I dare you to address the problem.

Just now, Raikh said:

You just have to take a look at Overframe to get a good impression at how low the general knowledge level of the playerbase is. But at the same time it also shows a huge concern for just survivability. So many Frame Builds are Double to Triple Umbra Builds with Adaptation and whatever else they can find to get the eHP up, even on Frames where it virtually makes no sense and the returns are more than questionable and in some cases there are none at all.

So there is definitely a trend with players being more preoccupied with staying alive than everything else and I think that is an issue that also makes the knowledge problem worse.

This is a fair point.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

13 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Well I'll bash you for pretending that players being immortal while doing nothing is ok. It's not. Contribute or why are you here? Oh because you can be? Not good enough, sorry. What else you got? This is about players doing nothing. Ok, imagine you're in a defense with 3 Revenants. Just imagine that. Who is doing all the work? The Revenants? No. YOU?!?!?! Yes.

 

Ah yes, defense missions. 

Famous for being so overwhelmingly difficult that anything less than a full squad of LR5 players with enough caffeine running through their blood to kill a moose and the most meta, sweaty, youtuber approved loadouts all working with the harmony of a syncronized swimming team, is doomed to failure.🙄

Also any revenant with even one halfway decent weapon is more than capable of "pulling their own weight".

[Aldain]

It's not Revenant that's the problem.

It's the obtuse rate at which enemy damage grows, eventually all but requiring abuse of Shield Gating or "Haha I'm invincible" abilities to not randomly get clipped and die in two hits.

I remember the old days where using Redirection was a meme because shields were basically worthless since they got no damage reduction like Health and there was no Shield Gating, now all of the sudden frames like Inaros are considered bad (even some prematurely assuming post incoming rework) because Health has no safety net like Shields so you do just eventually pop in a single hit no matter your DR.

Enemy Damage scaling has been the can kicked down the road by a combination of cheese and "Nuke everything so hard defense doesn't matter" for an insanely long time, now we're seeing the fallout of that because the baseline for "Durable" is now more or less "How long can this frame be functionally invincible?".

[CrownOfShadows]

16 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Ah yes, defense missions. 

Famous for being so overwhelmingly difficult that anything less than a full squad of LR5 players with enough caffeine running through their blood to kill a moose and the most meta, sweaty, youtuber approved loadouts all working with the harmony of a syncronized swimming team, is doomed to failure.🙄

Also any revenant with even one halfway decent weapon is more than capable of "pulling their own weight".

So if there's defense mission and it's just you with 2 or 3 Revenants you're cool with that? Just checking. Like honestly. Be real.

And your excuse for Revenant being useless is "because weapons GOOD" ... sorry that't not  good enough, why not play literally ANY other warframe?

Edited March 3 by CrownOfShadows

[sunderthefirmament]

23 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

So you are upset that other people can play a high lvl mission and not die? wtf

not dying is contributing in of itself, imagine if you had to revive every few seconds

 

I came here to say this.  Thank you for beating me to it.  In a game where it's this easy to solo-carry basically any/all content in the game, something as simple as "not dying" is in fact contributing.  I shudder every time I'm trying to kill a demolyst in Archon Hunt Disruption only to have a teammate go down.  Now I have to make a choice.  Do I focus on the demo or focus on the dying teammate?  If I can't do both, I'll likely be in the mission longer saving another conduit (or whatever we're actually doing in Disruption).

 

Mesmer Skin is really, really strong.  And Revenant could likely use some changes.  But "not dying" is one of my personal favorite ways that my teammates contribute in this game.  Also up there are:

• reaching the friendship door at the same time as (or before) me
• reaching the elevator in a timely fashion
• reaching extraction in a timely fashion
• not overriding my Zenurik energy bubbles with a lower rank version
• using a cipher to insta-hack if they beat me to a console

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, sunderthefirmament said:

I came here to say this.  Thank you for beating me to it.  In a game where it's this easy to solo-carry basically any/all content in the game, something as simple as "not dying" is in fact contributing.  I shudder every time I'm trying to kill a demolyst in Archon Hunt Disruption only to have a teammate go down.  Now I have to make a choice.  Do I focus on the demo or focus on the dying teammate?  If I can't do both, I'll likely be in the mission longer saving another conduit (or whatever we're actually doing in Disruption).

 

Mesmer Skin is really, really strong.  And Revenant could likely use some changes.  But "not dying" is one of my personal favorite ways that my teammates contribute in this game.  Also up there are:

• reaching the friendship door at the same time as (or before) me
• reaching the elevator in a timely fashion
• reaching extraction in a timely fashion
• not overriding my Zenurik energy bubbles with a lower rank version
• using a cipher to insta-hack if they beat me to a console

So what would you do if none of us were there? LOSE? C'mon. Contribute a LITTLE holy christ

[RichardKam]

Well, Rev doing nothing in a team could be a good thing. I bet you have never met a slowva in defense.

[sunderthefirmament]

1 minute ago, CrownOfShadows said:

So what would you do if none of us were there? LOSE? C'mon. Contribute a LITTLE holy christ

Sorry, I think you're misunderstanding me.  I show up to literally every mission in this game prepared to solo carry.  That isn't a brag.  It's just how I play the game.

 

I'm not the Revenant in this situation.  I just don't mind seeing him on my team.  When I see a Revenant, I think "Oh, I won't have to waste any of my time reviving this player."

[CrownOfShadows]

1 minute ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Sorry, I think you're misunderstanding me.  I show up to literally every mission in this game prepared to solo carry.  That isn't a brag.  It's just how I play the game.

 

I'm not the Revenant in this situation.  I just don't mind seeing him on my team.  When I see a Revenant, I think "Oh, I won't have to waste any of my time reviving this player."

... and this player won't contribute diddly sqaut... right or wrong?

[DrivaMain]

As long as something is not "stealing kills" for me (looking at you Saryn), I'll tolerate it. 

If I have the same mentality as you, I would make a rant post on how disruptive Saryn is to gameplay and ask for a Nerf so bad it will make that frame worthless. 

[Hexerin]

Yes, it does get quite tiring having to carry the majority of the squads I get stuck with in public play, due to how common such frames like Revenant are. It's one of the reasons why I generally favor playing solo or with friends.

8 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Well, Rev doing nothing in a team could be a good thing. I bet you have never met a slowva in defense.

God, I still cringe occasionally at the memory of when I used to bring my Tankova to Defense type missions. "The enemy moves and attacks slower, so they take longer to get to the target and then deal less damage over time to it. It's the perfect answer!" At least I can take solace in the fact that since I mostly play solo, very few people had to suffer my newbie failings.

Edited March 3 by Hexerin

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, DrivaMain said:

As long as something is not "stealing kills" for me (looking at you Saryn), I'll tolerate it. 

If I have the same mentality as you, I would make a rant post on how disruptive Saryn is to gameplay and ask for a Nerf so bad it will make that frame worthless. 

Look, Sayrn CONTRIBUTES, and honestly Mesa would be a better example, she mostly just fundamentally steals kills. But what does Revenant DO>?

[sunderthefirmament]

1 minute ago, CrownOfShadows said:

... and this player won't contribute diddly sqaut... right or wrong?

I view their lack of dying as contributing.  The bar is that low in this game.  You don't have to agree, of course.

 

When I do play Revenant, I always have Mesmer Shield stapled to my build.  That's another way he contributes, or can contribute.  If a player can afford Mesmer Shield, they should always have it on, honestly.  It's not like Revenant is really hurting for mod space.

[Hexerin]

3 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

But what does Revenant DO>?

Nothing of value in 99% of the game's content. He's useful for his Mesmer Skin augment in certain fights (Jackal, for example), although even then it's mostly just a convenience thing. Danse Macabre doesn't scale, and suffers from the jankiest radial in the game (plus has some bugs with actual hit detection related to terrain).

Edited March 3 by Hexerin

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, sunderthefirmament said:

I view their lack of dying as contributing.  The bar is that low in this game.  You don't have to agree, of course.

 

When I do play Revenant, I always have Mesmer Shield stapled to my build.  That's another way he contributes, or can contribute.  If a player can afford Mesmer Shield, they should always have it on, honestly.  It's not like Revenant is really hurting for mod space.

Hm, yeah, but it's kindof a free gift via Circuit, it's not like they grinded the syndicate for it. Honestly props to you, I doubt 90% of Revenant players use the augment.