i feel like dante is too good ?

[(PSN)rexis12]

"Dante gives Overguard too easy compared to everything else"

Oh gee, you mean like it's an ability that's dedicated to Overguard instead of having a secondary effect that gives Overguard. 

Might as well Nerf abilities that just heal because Blessing heals too much compared to other abilities that heal as a side effect. 

[OneOmniverse]

2 hours ago, Waeleto said:

When the nerfs are revealed (today i assume) this thread is easier gonna die out or go absolutely on fire (i'm guessing the later) 

When did they say they were revealing that I thought they just only looking and reviewing for now 

1 hour ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Whose betting DE will "fix" Dante and later sell an augment as a bandaid, just like those two frames.

Well they’ve done it several times before so probably in there infinite wisdom 

[Waeleto]

Just now, OneOmniverse said:

When did they say they were revealing that I thought they just only looking and reviewing for now 

I could swear i heard Reb saying there was a dev blog about dante coming during the stream

[OneOmniverse]

6 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

I could swear i heard Reb saying there was a dev blog about dante coming during the stream

Sigh what a disappointment bleh where can I read the blog? 

[Waeleto]

Just now, OneOmniverse said:

Sigh what a disappointment bleh where can I read the blog? 

Not out yet, i'm referring to the dev short i think that's where they said a dev blog is coming out (it was supposed to come out yesterday), tbh if a nerf is CONFIRMED that it will happen i'd rather know what the nerf earlier so we can talk about it and discuss it more in details like we did with the Mirage nerf and the devs decided to revert it

[vFlitz]

46 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Personally, I always felt the "beeg nombors" that everyone loves were too easy to obtain. Especially in Overguard.
Enemies don't chew through it enough to warrant having 50k Overguard at times.
Especially when you already have two other Health-Types to go through, death becomes a joke. One that nobody is laughing at.

Limiting the amount gained at any given point seems more likely. A bit of "best for both worlds" sorta idea.
So, I think "why not just take the amount a player would normally get and divide that across all entities receiving it?"

If Dante would normally get 1k Overguard from a single cast? If it affects 8 targets (himself, his pet, squad and their pets), each gets 125 Overguard.
A lot more feasible without touching the cap outright. It makes players struggle to maintain what is effectively a "bonus" health.

50k is paper, go a few rotations in an endless steel path mission and enemies start removing it with a sneeze. The proper tanks in this game get into the range of millions of EHP, Overguard need at least a somewhat decent number or else maintaining it is a chore that nobody wants to deal with. It's not a struggle. It's a chore.

Sure, that 50k will never run out in a normal starchart mission, but that's not an issue unique to Overgoard. The disparity between the starting power and the peak that players can ultimately reach is extreme and no amount of design magic will produce something that's neither underwhelming on one end nor overpowering on the other.

53 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

To cast "Tragedy", you must...

1. Cast Dark Verse twice prior. Dark Verse does 2 instances of Forced Slash Proc damage.
2. These Slash Procs have a base value of 1250 Slash. For comparasion? Shuriken does 500 and hits very few targets.
3. That is AT LEAST 4 instances of Slash for all targets you decide to hit.

Assuming enemies are not already near death from Slash procs- something that bypasses Armor- casting "Tragedy" will now proc ANOTHER 6.5k Damage Slash PRoc.
Of which ALSO gets another Multiplier of x3. Triple the value.

All at base Ability Strength. I don't even need my conditionals to hit x6.
Are you blind or simply just dense? Pick your poison.

Here you're just wrong. Tragedy doesn't proc anything by itself, the slash icon only describes its damage typing. Neither does it benefit from its own multiplier, that only applies to status that it expedites. So at base strength it's just a 6.5k flat damage hit that gets reduced to nothing against armor. Sure, the enemies in front of you that you applied the prerequisite Dark Verses to will suffer much heavier damage, but all other enemies around you will only die if they're squishy to begin with. It's also a long casting process unless you really juice him up with casting speed.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

So even if it's "30% of the original's damage"... that's still 30% extra firepower for EVERYONE, not just Dante!
Using Dante's mods with Dante's damage and maybe even proc'ing any of the Tome Mods Dante put on.
This doesn't even inhibit his current performance either, so this has zero drawbacks even if it is weaker than the rest.

No, it's an extra 30% of Noctua's firepower for everyone. For some players it will be a 5% extra, for others it will be 200%, it all depends on what and how well they're using. If they are casters rather than weapon users then they don't even get anything, because Wordwarden only supports attacks with weapons. It also doesn't work with Tome mods. A decent percentage of Dantes that you encoutner won't even have an efficiently modded Wordwarden, because it requires a setup that's not particularly good on Noctua itself. So it's not exactly free either, you need to make sacrifices to optimize it (even if said sacrifice comes easily because Noctua is the perfect candidate for ability replacement on him) 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

''Dante is good but he can't handle enemies lv9999''

Any warframe can.

 

Edited April 4 by CosoMalvadoNG

[Waeleto]

5 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

''Dante is good but he can't handle enemies lv9999''

 

Sure, notice how all his overguard is broken with 1 hit 

[MouthfulOJoules]

So, if the tweaks are incoming anyway, why not...

1. Make the OG from 2 and/or 4 scale, knock it down for lower power content, increase to usable levels for higher level content up to levelcap (for example give it a cap increase that scales with the amount of damage taken per time, or that is based on enemy level, or "increases with the overall team overguard damage taken by the team", or make it vampiric towards enemy overguard, dante only or teamwide with an augment? idk that would definitely need some input.
2. Make it count as both health and armor damage for vex armor users, but decrease the growth% per damage. That way chroma can actually use more than 1/4th of his kit with a Dante in the squad. still doesn't fix the Hunter Adrenaline issue caused by overguard, unless combat discipline is in the mix.

[Colyeses]

36 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

It also doesn't work with Tome mods. A decent percentage of Dantes that you encoutner won't even have an efficiently modded Wordwarden, because it requires a setup that's not particularly good on Noctua itself.

This is such an annoying part of Dante's design. Noctua's unique super special 'look at me' passive being "Give me ALL your tome mods" and then Wordwarden just going 'no'.

[ShogunGunshow]

No one should be using level 9999 as a metric for anything. The devs have been explicit that they do not design the game around that. 

[MouthfulOJoules]

7 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

''Dante is good but he can't handle enemies lv9999''

...

Any warframe can.
...

Later than expected, yet another ocucor build.

The main issue of discussion was not about Dante being a good or bad weapons platform.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 2 minutos, ShogunGunshow dijo:

No one should be using level 9999 as a metric for anything. The devs have been explicit that they do not design the game around that. 

I don't do it, those who do it are the ones who cry about the nerf. I just played they little game.

Edited April 4 by CosoMalvadoNG

[ShaloomHD]

Dante dont need a nerf OG is bad high levels and very strong low.... his nuking relies on is 3 cuz his 4  needs slash to kill, is 3 is line of sight checked so its not a multi room nuke.... so come tell me why is he OP? OG needs changing for frames that need to take HP damage but thats not a Dante problem theres at least 10 to 15 frames that should be nerfed before dante.....

OG cap change would do nothing has i said before OG is bad high levels so even removing the OG that he gives allies wouldnt bovver me and would only make low level players that play base steel path or none steel path mad and end game for me is steel path endless  

[MouthfulOJoules]

17 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

No one should be using level 9999 as a metric for anything. The devs have been explicit that they do not design the game around that. 

I don't completely disagree, however The thing is, there is enemy level, damage and etc scaling to non-levelcap, that still should be considered, because things like disruptions and void cascade exist, where you can hit levelcap in less time than it takes a survival to hit the fifth C rotation. If frames are not intended to be used for 45 minutes in a run, i take your point, otherwise i'd argue that making OG stacking abilities scale and decrease their power on base sp/starchart is a way to have the cake and eat it too.

EDIT

That's not to say that the current OG levels for base starchart and or base SP are pretty damn nutty. I agree with that, but as it stands it barely holds up after a while. a scaling solution would let it be less boring for both situations, no?

Edited April 4 by MouthfulOJoules
Addendum

[OneOmniverse]

50 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Not out yet, i'm referring to the dev short i think that's where they said a dev blog is coming out (it was supposed to come out yesterday), tbh if a nerf is CONFIRMED that it will happen i'd rather know what the nerf earlier so we can talk about it and discuss it more in details like we did with the Mirage nerf and the devs decided to revert it

Oh I see that would be good then cause this is bull crap as it stands 

[ABlindGuyPlays]

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

There is a reason my Grimoire is renamed to "Textbook of Bludgeoning" after all.

Pfft 

 

I love it.

[Binket_]

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

Everything is here in this thread

... and I do read their statements.
Some of which I reply to!
You'd know if you skimmed it!~

But I'm working with what I got. A lot of threads were suddenly moved and context gets jumbled.
Working with more recent stuff as a result.

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

since you are one of the people who constantly scream "NERF NERF NERF" even before dante came out

On the contrary.
I always say "I'll test it when it comes out" because- surprise, surprise- Dev Builds are prone to changes.
... but unlike a bit of vague footage that may not be final, when I get my hands on a Warframe? I can get a lot of information out of it.

The first thing I saw?
"Wow, that's a lot of Overguard!"
The second thing I saw?
"Wow, that's a lot of slash!"

... so than I tried it. No tricks or snares here, just a lotta overtuning!
Cue forums.

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

I am not constantly recasting Triumph, it's a persistent ability. If I catch someone getting low, I'll recast it, but otherwise I won't. And Triumph is, in effect, a 100 energy ability, which is higher than Styanax' defense pick.

... what?
First off, Triumph is only ONE part of the Overguard. You're forgetting Light Verse which you have to cast anyway to get Triumph.
You have to cast it for both Wordwarden and Pageflight, so if you're trying to get ALL the buffs up? That's 4 casts of Light Verse at least.
More than enough to get people plenty of Overguard, assuming Triumph doesn't instantly max it out. (Or top it off with the extra regen for that matter)

... also Final Stand is ALSO a 100 Energy Ability.
If you're going to make the excuse of Styanax's 3, may I gesture to Xata Invocation.
Something Dante can EASILY proc give the wide shot that is his Noctua's Alt-Fire.

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

The fact that it's stored in this particular element means that it requires supplementary status stacking in order to take off, which means that this kit-dependency that you mention for Citrine's Crystallise also applies to Tragedy. It's just that Dante needs status weapons, while Citrine wants precision. 

If this were Expedite Suffering with a x1 Multiplier? I'd be inclined to believe it needing a bit more Statuses to make it go boom.
... but you're talking SLASH dealt in the THOUSANDS with a BASE MULTIPLIER of x3.

There is no need for Viral-- you just win. Period!
Just add Range, not that you really need it considering it's a 30m Radius without them!
RADIALLY. Not the cone that Expedite Suffering has!

If anything, you're really underselling how good Expedite Suffering can be-- and likewise how utterly astronomical Tragedy has to be!
This is assuming you're using JUST Dark Verse to do this too, you can add a Sentinel or Panzer Vulpaphyla to handle Status spread in that regard!

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Additionally, Prismatic Gem can very easily be repositioned, so its location based restriction is easily overcome. It also affects status chance, which means it works with ALL status effects. It's significantly more powerful too, and with one Archon mod, it gets a ton of armor strip stacked on it. Yes, it requires targets to take damage, be it from a source within the gem's (generous) radius, or it requires the target to be in the radius, but her 1 also ticks it off. And that thing, coincidentally, also produces a ton of energy orbs.

I'm well are the havoc Prismatic Gem can bring myself.
I am however looking at this for a broader picture and for the longer term.

It's far less possible to "just nuke" with Prismatic Gem. Nor is it easy to automate either.
While yes, there are a LOT of effects that can boost the gem. Most of them are Archon Mods.
Personally, I think Archon Mods are trivial to get-- but most don't. Dante doesn't need these mods, arguably doesn't need Tome Mods either.

Fractured Blast making Energy Orbs is nice, we have a plethora of ways to make energy though.
Some of which aren't even locked to the Warframe itself.

I will say that I do agree Prismatic Gem does have a pretty large radius, though I'm not sure how I'd go about tweaking that myself.

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Also, you can bold 'damage multiplier' all you like, but 0 x 500 is still 0. Or are you going to make an issue over Vauban's Flechettes getting a basekit multiplier of x13 against level 130+ enemies, too?

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

'But slash ignores armour!'

Yeah, but Tragedy doesn't. That's why it hits like a wet noodle at higher levels unless you really overkill your STR.

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

You are staring yourself blind on that multiplier, buddy. All those multipliers can make a very pretty damage figure, I'm sure, but post-armour? It does nothing. 

Unless Enemies are suddenly deciding to die of their own volition, it seems to be the case for me.
I'm not seeing anything on the Wiki or other sources saying otherwise either.

As it puts it:
"Enemies hit by Tragedy while debuffed with active Slash, Heat, or Toxin Status Effect will instantly receive the full damage from all damage ticks of the procs, multiplied by 2.25x / 2.5x / 2.75x / 3x; status effects are removed after inflicting damage."

Which I'm inclined to believe from the pile of Gokstad corpses I made a few days ago? (Mainly out of disbelief)
Yes, it does. It just does all the damage from that at once.

MAYBE from the way you're doing it, it may be factoring in Heat or Toxin and ignoring the bypass of Slash?
I'd have to double check that, but that seems weird and possibly unintentional if it is.

 

One thing is for sure, it's absolutely obliterating large chunks of the map with very little ease.
Especially given how easy it is to use, compared to some other kits.

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Disometric Guard does not require the pillars.

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Neither does Crucible Blast! Containment Wall does that!

Disometric Guard does not require the pillars. His damage output overall does vastly benefit from pillars.

Hell, Wiki says:
"When empowered by Crucible Blast, the Chyrinka Pillar's pulses inherit that ability's explosive chain reaction against irradiated enemies."

It is not specifically the Pillars "empowered" state, but rather that it inherits the chain reaction effect.
In other words, you're hitting EVERY enemy at once with Crucible Blast IF you're hitting a Pillar!

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Actually, Disometric Guard is still pretty new at the time. It's status immunity for the team. That's immunity to all kinds of Eximus crap being tossed at you. That's good! It's a super convenient ability. That's why Triumph is the only thing worth considering a problem, because it's Disometric on steroids.

• Trinity's Well of Life.
• Titania's Spellbind. (Subsume bonus!)
• Nezha's Safeguard Augment.
  • Perks of Warding Halo intentionally excluded for simplicity.
• Oberon's Hallowed Ground.
• Revenant's Mesmer Skin (+augment)
  • Yes, while I am not fond of this? Including it anyway, since it counts.
• If you wanna split hairs? Harrow's Covenant as well.
• Etc.

Some do it in varying degrees, but Status Immunity for the team is not new.
In the way it does it? Sure, it's a charge-based one like Hideous Resistance. It still has it's own caveats.
It's not even the subsume, so you can't make the excuse of some not having the same degree.

Qorvex replenishes the stock of charges by kills of irradiated targets.
Not inherently difficult, yes-- but there are things to keep in mind with it.

Dante's Overguard simply just exists, it does more than just Status Immunity.

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Shuriken is also not used for that very reason. A LOT of old frames have abilities that are so bad that they aren't worth the button-press. Dark Verse is not special. A lot of weapons will mow enemies down a lot faster than Dark Verse can. Kullervo with a quick 3-1, for example, does significantly more damage. (And sticks a colossal flat crit boost for a duration)

I'm well aware it's not used for the Slash Damage, but I'm pointing it out because it's functionally very similar... and also a subsume so it's easier for most to visualize.
Most people use it for the Augment anyway. I don't know WHY they do specifically, but I've heard many a story of it being used in Level Cap runs to varying usage.
... that is to say, "the reason itself varies from person to person, but there is one. Usually that it does something better on bigger targets."

Sure, Kullervo can cast his 4 and than use 3 to cause Slash procs in a general area. Absolutely, it's still a DoT.
Kullervo is also an interesting case, like I said before-- he also has to be aware of his frailty. He doesn't have Shields to back him up.

Unlike Dante who can radially slash reality apart, Kullervo needs to be quick, mobile and on the dime to make sure he has the maximum amount of targets.
Storm of Ukko has a lengthy wind-up animation, making Casting Speed quite needed. Mostly because it locks him into place for the duration of the animation.

There are nuanced factors of WHY Kullervo works. He's EXTREMELY powerful offensively, but has to be mindful defensively. That's the tradeoff.
Dante just does. Period. Take every bit of nuance that makes Kullervo acceptable and spits upon it.

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Rhino roar is 50% at base in one button press with no question asked, and works with all builds. 

Also, it's not 30% extra firepower. That Noctua is not gonna keep up with better weapon picks. Its fire-rate won't keep up with rapidfire weapons, and slow-shooters are likely to kill the target before Wordwarden can hit it.

Roar is a curious one, but I feel it's buff lies mostly in part with how it's coded. Damage buffs exist all over so if you nerf that one specifically, it's not fixing anything.
Personally, the fact that it does Faction Damage is partly a bit more interesting-- but I can some problems arising with it.

But that wasn't my point with Wordwarden. It's not a direct damage upgrade.
It's simply more firepower outright. If enemies are surviving a shot? They're prone to get hit by the next bit.

Like I said, it's the WEAKEST part of his kit and even in that case it's still arguably really good.
Which begs the question of "what does that spell out for the rest of his kit?"
Overtuned, comes to mind.

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Both of them are frontal cone based. 

But where Dante drops three casts and 100 energy to snapshot kill enemies that got hit by all four strikes of the two Dark Verses, Protea presses one button to put down an autonomous turret that fully controls its space for an extended period of time. 

Something came around the corner after you started casting? Protea's turret will wreck it. Dante has to reboot his entire cast sequence.

Blaze Artillery however- while powerful- need to ramp up once targets don't die in one hit. Which can happen rather quickly.
It most assured that if a target dies in one hit to a Protea Turret? Dark Verse WILL ABSOLUTELY kill it just as fast.
... and while Dark Verse is a cone? Tragedy isn't.

Turrets do 500 Heat Damage, Dark Verse does 1250 Slash Damage.
Heat doesn't pierce armor. Even if you factor outside of each one's Status, Verse just does more.
Assuming ramp-up isn't an issue either way? You'll still invest a good portion of Strength.

In addition, Protea's Turrets have such low duration that they're likely not going to last long enough to ambush enemies.
Though, I blame that on most enemies being slow as hell most days.

As a result, Protea will have to recast often. Not that it's a bad thing, mind you.
Powerful yes, positioning and Energy is also important. You also need her Shield Grenades if you want survivability.
Energy from Dispensary is nice, but has nothing that Khra Canticle or Xata Invocation can't already do faster.

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Kullervo is plenty tanky with Adaptation

Oh. Well, now I feel silly.
Here I thought I was trying to discuss things, but here you are bringing nonsense!

"Overguard is not affected by Damage Reduction from armor or mods such as Adaptation."
Buddy, it's literally the first section of the page: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Overguard

... but for your sake? I'll just pretend I didn't see this.

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Oof, you don't know Vauban well, do you?

I mean, you're complaining about him being squishy, and then you toss 1K bonus armour and armour strip in the trash. I actually avoid his Vortex. Bastille + Flechette becomes a meat grinder all its own and can lock down a massive area extremely effectively. 

Ah, see-- I know of the 1k Armor Bonus with stripping Enemy Armor.
... because I too avoid his Vortex!

The problem is that Bastille ALWAYS turns into Vortex at the end of it's duration.
I _{(along with others before me most likely)} have made posts on these very forums about how silly that is.

Believe me, I know EXACTLY how that is. Would it be overpowered? Probably not all things considered.
Would it be nice to have? Absolutely!

The problem is that when Vortex is an issue? I have to use it anyway if I wanna use Bastille, since they're stapled together.
Thus those bonuses you mentioned are rarely applicable.

Trust me, I'm working on that. One thing at a time though, this one is "the thing" because it's currently on DE's mind.

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

I did not bring up Revenant and I don't see why he's relevant.

It's a commonly picked Warframe durability.
I picked him because it's a good example to bring up another point.

Just because invincible doesn't mean you're useful.
But since Dante kinda has a mix of all that? It only adds to the layers.

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Sure, you can.

But not with nerfs.

Well, last I checked? He's not inherently bad to play, there are good concepts here.
But he IS overtuned and unless we wanna make a lot of other Warframes hit that inevitable "power crept dumpster bin" faster?
Let's give him some new numbers to work with.

I'm fully capable of looking at more creatives, but right now people are mad at "nerfs".
... and I genuinely cannot stand keeping things as they are for the sake of short-sighted fun. Especially given DE's track record involving such.
My reply to some other guy (PsiWarp, I believe) DID mention some ways to make a more broad-stroke change that doesn't JUST affect Dante while still addressing a problem with Overguard, if you're interested in "alternatives".

But at the moment? I'm working with what the flow has, it's not a stready stream either.

 

1 hour ago, OneOmniverse said:

Who cares people just wanna have fun nerfing things doesn’t equate to fun.

I like eating tasty sugary foods, but that doesn't I can subsist a diet specifically of it.
Same idea here. It's not rocket science.

 

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

DE knows this and embraces it

... and they literally said in the very next sentence:
"This makes designing content frustrating." in a paraphrased way.

There's a difference between "Power Fantasy" and "Minecraft Creative Mode in Singleplayer".
Former has rules and systems that make attaining high power rewarding.
The latter is a mechanic that would be too busted for the average player if in Multiplayer.

Than again, the video I sent ya had the guy saying "Do I want my Lato to do this every time I pull the trigger?" while blowing up a whole mountain.
... and than the Incarnon Lato came out and he made another video. "The winning lottery number is 12, by the way."

Classic.

 

1 hour ago, vFlitz said:

50k is paper, go a few rotations in an endless steel path mission and enemies start removing it with a sneeze. The proper tanks in this game get into the range of millions of EHP, Overguard need at least a somewhat decent number or else maintaining it is a chore that nobody wants to deal with. It's not a struggle. It's a chore.

See, as I've told others?

If you're at a point where Overguard gets shredded that quickly? There is no Armor, Shield or Health value to save you.
This is also why Level Cap with things like Invisibility tends to be a massive joke.
When you turn the Enemy AI off? You can be at 2 Health and it wouldn't matter.

However, for every bit of content that isn't above Level 400? _{(I.E. Literally anything that isn't 20 minutes or so in a Steel Path Endless)}
It will have very little dents put in your Overguard. If any.
This was the case for Frost, it was the case for Styanax.
Dante just ups the ante with even easier-to-get Overguard and passively regenerating it with Triumph.

Keep in mind, the game- as much I hate that it is- is built around baby-mode since any content outside of Steel Path rarely breaks 60. Let alone 100.
Hell, the only nodes to break 55 are the newest nodes in the game, the Sanctum Anatomica ones... and the Level 80 Conjunction Survival.

In Steel Path? This doesn't really change much.
Every Warframe can technically do Level Cap, but it's certainly not getting any more impressive to do so.
Rather it's getting disappointing that we HAVE to in order to feel something about the game again.

50k Overguard is more than enough unless you're doing something silly or just playing exceedingly stupid.

1 hour ago, vFlitz said:

Here you're just wrong. Tragedy doesn't proc anything by itself, the slash icon only describes its damage typing.

Last I checked? It is. Unless they changed that since last I checked (which would have to a VERY stealthy nerf)-- it should be doing big numbers.

That being said, this is all assuming you aren't using an external source of Status... like a Sentinel perhaps.
It wouldn't even be that complicated to use something like Ocucor, Epitaph, Ferrox, Cedo, etc. for some more pesky targets like Acolytes.
Even IF it doesn't proc by itself, any source of Slash, Toxin or Heat is enough to fatally kill most things quickly.

^{Though, I just remembered people saying "Equinox is dead!" not realizing the two would probably synergize to a extremely broken degree at this point. Irony, truly.}

1 hour ago, vFlitz said:

No, it's an extra 30% of Noctua's firepower for everyone. For some players it will be a 5% extra, for others it will be 200%, it all depends on what and how well they're using. If they are casters rather than weapon users then they don't even get anything, because Wordwarden only supports attacks with weapons.

When you break it down? Wordwarden IS the weakest ability, but it's still very useful in it's own right.
Like I said to that previous reply, it's the weakest part of his kit... and still quite the potent perk.

1 hour ago, vFlitz said:

It also doesn't work with Tome mods.

Invocations, yes. That requires the Alt-Fire.
Canticles should work just fine. If not, the wording for the ability may be off.
Mind you, not the first time DE has done that. So I can believe it.

Given that DE intentionally made Noctua capable of using ALL the Tome Mods with no restrictions?
I dunno, you'd assume they would allow Wordwarden to use them.
I'd want an official statement from DE if that's not supposed to be the case.

1 hour ago, vFlitz said:

A decent percentage of Dantes that you encoutner won't even have an efficiently modded Wordwarden, because it requires a setup that's not particularly good on Noctua itself.

To be fair, a large majority of players I find still put Primed Sure Footed on Atlas or Adaptation on Revenant.
So while I could very well believe that? It's not in the way you're saying it.

It's simply just Warframe players being the usual is all.

 

42 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Sure, notice how all his overguard is broken with 1 hit 

Timestamp? Took a quick skim of it and uhhh... the only time Overguard wasn't there in actual combat was when he went into Operator.
Like, no duh it goes away than. It's because he's not in the Warframe at that point.

Besides that, I didn't see it break once. Get low? Sure, but never break.
Even if it does break, GUESS WHAT-- you have Shields. Recast Overguard, viola. You win.
^{Warframe players seem to implode when I tell them that they're invincible for a brief moment after either breaks. No idea why they're prone to that.}

 

33 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

No one should be using level 9999 as a metric for anything. The devs have been explicit that they do not design the game around that. 

I can see why people do though, it's not like the base content has anything reputable for itself.
Not that I disagree, but it's more "Yeah, hoping that eventually DE gets the memo... but unlikely."

 

40 minutes ago, MouthfulOJoules said:

Later than expected, yet another ocucor build.

Heat, Toxin and Slash procs all get affected by Tragedy.
Slash may not be innate to Ocucor, but Secondary Encumber exists!
... and it's a beam weapon that auto-homes in.

I'm not saying it's creative, but I am going to say that the logic checks out.
^{Which is rare for a Youtube Video involving Warframe.}

 

27 minutes ago, ABlindGuyPlays said:

I love it.

If you like it? I got some minor backstory to it.

"Textbook of Bludgeoning" was named after an old "custom item" in a game I once had with some old friends.
Using it on a target would hit them to increase their intelligence stats by a small amount. It would last long enough for a few mundane tasks.
It would do so little damage that I considered putting a "kill-tracker" on it, juuuuuust in case.

They expected me to drop it very early on because "it would clutter up my inventory and it won't be useful later in the journey".
Little did they expect how useful it would be, considering they only started levelling up Intelligence as I kept whacking them with it.
Mainly in an effort to get me to stop hitting them. Thankfully for my own humor? Ingame stats do not correlate to IRL ability.

It's become a tradition for me to name any "book" weapon I get in some games "The Textbook o Bludgeoning" whenever I get the chance as a result.
... and than beat the nearest person over the head with whenever I have to point out the obvious. As per tradition.

I name a lot of weapons in Warframe, but very few outside of Zaws/Kitguns/Amps/Pets get "funny names"! This was a good chance for it.
^{I am still upset that I cannot rename Sentinels. Legs on Fortuna should be able to do that.}

[ShaloomHD]

Sure, notice how all his overguard is broken with 1 hit 

Timestamp? Took a quick skim of it and uhhh... the only time Overguard wasn't there in actual combat was when he went into Operator.
Like, no duh it goes away than. It's because he's not in the Warframe at that point.

Besides that, I didn't see it break once. Get low? Sure, but never break.
Even if it does break, GUESS WHAT-- you have Shields. Recast Overguard, viola. You win.
^{Warframe players seem to implode when I tell them that they're invincible for a brief moment after either breaks. No idea why they're prone to that.}

 

^{it does break and alot plus look at his allies they dont have OG cuz its Bad high level and not using level cap is like people using low level  has a example pointless cuz at level cap OG ones shotted low level you cast it once and never loose it....} 

 

plus is damage is strong cuz its slash come on now slash is the best ele to have but again not OP cuz its 3 needs to see enemies to hit... his 4 needs 3 for the slash procs

 

 

Edited April 4 by ShaloomHD

[OneOmniverse]

2 hours ago, Colyeses said:

I am not constantly recasting Triumph, it's a persistent ability. If I catch someone getting low, I'll recast it, but otherwise I won't. And Triumph is, in effect, a 100 energy ability, which is higher than Styanax' defense pick.

This is where you just go off the deep end though. Warframe is not Destiny. This is not a problem.

This is just showing a flawed perception. You're selling Citrine short, and overselling Dante. 

First off: Dante's radial damage is terrible. Tragedy's damage is almost entirely in the multiplier for DoTs. The fact that it's stored in this particular element means that it requires supplementary status stacking in order to take off, which means that this kit-dependency that you mention for Citrine's Crystallise also applies to Tragedy. It's just that Dante needs status weapons, while Citrine wants precision. 

Additionally, Prismatic Gem can very easily be repositioned, so its location based restriction is easily overcome. It also affects status chance, which means it works with ALL status effects. It's significantly more powerful too, and with one Archon mod, it gets a ton of armor strip stacked on it. Yes, it requires targets to take damage, be it from a source within the gem's (generous) radius, or it requires the target to be in the radius, but her 1 also ticks it off. And that thing, coincidentally, also produces a ton of energy orbs. 

Dante, meanwhile, has to get multiple casts out to get anything done and then doesn't accomplish all that much.

Also, you can bold 'damage multiplier' all you like, but 0 x 500 is still 0. Or are you going to make an issue over Vauban's Flechettes getting a basekit multiplier of x13 against level 130+ enemies, too?

Disometric Guard does not require the pillars.

Neither does Crucible Blast! Containment Wall does that!

Actually, Disometric Guard is still pretty new at the time. It's status immunity for the team. That's immunity to all kinds of Eximus crap being tossed at you. That's good! It's a super convenient ability. That's why Triumph is the only thing worth considering a problem, because it's Disometric on steroids.

'Shuriken does 500'

Shuriken is also not used for that very reason. A LOT of old frames have abilities that are so bad that they aren't worth the button-press. Dark Verse is not special. A lot of weapons will mow enemies down a lot faster than Dark Verse can. Kullervo with a quick 3-1, for example, does significantly more damage. (And sticks a colossal flat crit boost for a duration)

You are staring yourself blind on that multiplier, buddy. All those multipliers can make a very pretty damage figure, I'm sure, but post-armour? It does nothing. 

'But slash ignores armour!'

Yeah, but Tragedy doesn't. That's why it hits like a wet noodle at higher levels unless you really overkill your STR. 

My apologies, it's 70% damage reduction, not 75%. 

Rhino roar is 50% at base in one button press with no question asked, and works with all builds. 

Also, it's not 30% extra firepower. That Noctua is not gonna keep up with better weapon picks. Its fire-rate won't keep up with rapidfire weapons, and slow-shooters are likely to kill the target before Wordwarden can hit it. 

So do mods. And again, it's not just less than some mods, it's less than half a mod, unless it's additive. You get 60% off the element/status chance mods.

Dark Verse isn't affected by it.

Both of them are frontal cone based. 

But where Dante drops three casts and 100 energy to snapshot kill enemies that got hit by all four strikes of the two Dark Verses, Protea presses one button to put down an autonomous turret that fully controls its space for an extended period of time. 

Something came around the corner after you started casting? Protea's turret will wreck it. Dante has to reboot his entire cast sequence.

Kullervo is plenty tanky with Adaptation and the occasional 2 cast. Gyre's extensive area control makes it almost impossible for anything to threaten her, but swap Coil Horizon out for Pillage and she's unstoppable with her overshields AND she gets armour strip, at which point her damage becomes astronomical.

Oof, you don't know Vauban well, do you?

I mean, you're complaining about him being squishy, and then you toss 1K bonus armour and armour strip in the trash. I actually avoid his Vortex. Bastille + Flechette becomes a meat grinder all its own and can lock down a massive area extremely effectively. 

I did not bring up Revenant and I don't see why he's relevant.

Sure, you can.

But not with nerfs.

Exactly why everything is always nerf why is it always the go to smh I mean sometimes yeah but he didn’t need a nerf idk why they can’t just change other abilities to work with it instead of turning to nerf this nerf this it’s too good oh the world is over cause someone is too strong 

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

No, you're talking about progression and I'm talking about powercreep. It's simple.

No you arent due to this...

On 2024-04-01 at 3:33 AM, PublikDomain said:

This is reality. The game has powercrept progressed to the point where the consequences can't be ignored or hand-waved away, and it's obvious to anyone paying even a little bit of attention. The starting level for content in quests and on the starchart is getting higher and higher. DE says out loud that they have trouble developing content that challenges us, and they're constantly inventing new ways to counter player power like Damage Attenuation or Overguard or random gear or no gear at all. Console hosts can't even spawn enough enemies to match the current level of player power, for one player let alone four! And it's becoming more and more common to see complaints that some players feel they don't even get to play anymore because one person can hog the entire game to themselves. The AoE and AFK nerfs were made in part because of this very problem!

All that really seems to have changed is that this majority of players aren't putting up with the tired "just play solo" retorts anymore.

Since what you say doesnt make sense when you actually use the word powercreep in the context. What you talk about there is you having an issue with progression, that is it. Along with also dragging in tech limitations for some reason. You also somehow attribute the AoE and AFK nerfs to progress, when those were done for completely different reasons unrelated to powercreep. Those were done due to how the game is set up overall, with us doing high and low level content for the exact same items for the most part. So AFK farming was an issue due to it automating gameplay no matter where or at what power you were, since a mid level item could trivialize low level content to achieve automated farming with someone like Wukong. That has nothing to do with powercreep at all. AoE was nerfed because it was seen as disruptive, since co-op in this game lacks proper scaling, hence why it runs into these "issues" while other games do not. I mean, what do they expect when a mob in a 4 player group has the same eHP as in solo?

And the damage attenuation and overguard, those are things that should have been in the game long ago to tackle our baseline progression overall. You also bring up startchart levels getting higher and higher for quests, that is also just simple normal progression. Powercreep would be if it went beyond our current access to power progress. Currently nothing within content will be powercreep, since it is not beyond the point where the game currently allows for already designed scaling. The scaling has also been partly reduced with the S curve. Enemy damage output could likely use an overhaul aswell so the content becomes more consistant.

If content was to be labeled powercrept, it would need to surpass our power and also constantly replace previous content. None of that applies in WF, no content we have currently outpaces our power to incentivice us to farm new things to beat it while replacing the old content/items. And items that actually increase our power come so few and far between and it is also not guaranteed to replace something old. In some cases it does, but it depends on how players build, so that old item is still in use elsewhere. So new things really only lead to more choices while also enabling certain old things that might need help. Powercreep would be if we got more power contantly and always replaced the old. It would always result in power going ^ and not < or > most of the time. And content would always be higher and higher to get us to farm higher new items.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, OneOmniverse said:

Don’t need a history lesson to see they are doing the same thing all the other devs are doing which is nerf nerf nerf something as soon as it comes out. Doesn’t matter what nerf it is ,there should even be any nerfs

It's not healthy to have a knee-jeek so strong it's knocking your own teeth out. Maybe actually read the history lesson I posted for you and you might calm down

[Xenevier]

5 hours ago, Waeleto said:

HOLY MERGED THREAD !!!

Is this the 2024 equivalent of the heirloom thread ?

bro i woke up from a nap and saw 29 pages and was like WOT

[Silligoose]

5 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Instead of asking to nerf one thing maybe you should ask to buff older warframe and make enemies more challenging in different ways ? but that's too much work to ask for ig

I 100% agree that more interesting enemies could do wonders for the replayability and enjoyment of this game. I sometimes wonder why DE doesn't make use of the diversity in enemy roster already created - there are enemies (I can't recall the name at time of writing) that actually move a lot like Warframes! They'll bullet jump, they'll wall jump, they'll keep the pressure on the player and chase them down, but when is the last time you actually had something like that come for you? I myself can't even remember.

Bringing everything up to OP levels is often times foolish as it exacerbates powercreep and sometimes it isn't an option, because the mechanic in question is inherently overpowered. That results in too many mechanics being nullified, which leads to monotonous gameplay despite diversity in enemy and player rosters. DE doesn't let that fly. We've seen it over and over and over, except, instead of addressing the problem by directly nerfing the OP mechanics, they use band-aids to address it indirectly.

The problem keeping overpowered abilities in play and relying on indirect nerfs to bring about diversity, is the exact situation in which Warframe finds itself: In order to present more challenging content, DE proceeds to invalidate a massive amount of mechanics. Look at Archons. Look at TFO. Look at Eximus-only missions/rounds. Most abilities simply do not work on them. We're talking endgame content in a progression-style game where the progression of the player is nullified because the developers couldn't be bothered to balance mechanics properly.

The anti-nerf crowd don't seem to understand that overpowered options are always going to get nerfed. There is no "no nerf" option. The only question is whether it will be nerfed directly, or indirectly, and looking at the state of "challenging content" in Warframe, the erosion of gameplay associated with band-aids like Overguard or the mechanic-invulnerability seen with Archons or TFO, or other enemies, I would much rather see direct nerfs that allow me to still use different abilities against "challenging content", even if they are less powerful, than arbitrarily being told the majority of abilities won't affect said "challenging content", effectively reducing the diversity in play as a result.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

7 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Unfortunately, that's what happens when EVERYONE keeps spamming the strategy and thinks a nerf won't happen.
Something along the lines of "F* around and find out" comes to mind?

It's a PVE game! Why should it matter how quickly enemies die? Especially at this point when Warframe has thrown all semblance of balance out of a 30 story window and bricked it back up.