[Dante Unbound] Our plans for next week (35.5.6)

[ConOngVang]

4 minutes ago, AwwHeckASnek said:

Don't disagree they dropped the ball immensely on the handling of Dante, they rushed out a heavy handed panic adjustment before he ever got a chance to settle into the meta or provide any useful usage data beyond "Hes new and people are playing the new Warframe".

That said, the "This frame was sold for money so changing it is false advertising" is a really really bad way to look at things.

I'd like to see the patch reverted and them let him sit for a while before adjustments so that people actually know where he falls into the cast, he certainly wasn't outperforming meta staples. He was only "dominant" because he was the shiny new release.

It didn't really help when Rebecca said they are listening to feedbacks and will only do "minor tweaks" with Dante then proceeded to completely gutted him with broken LoS requirement on top of his Overguard nerf and Pageflight adjustment. People had been expressing that Dante's problem was his Overguard having anti-synergy with certain frames and builds but they went ahead and hit his damage while not doing anything about Overguard other than lowering numbers so the part when they said "they're listening to feedbacks" is the part where people feel like they got lied to.

Not that i did not expect them to add LoS onto Dante knowing their history but it's still painful as hell when you spent time farming for him and invested Formas onto Dante and Noctua only for DE to bring him out back and shanked him harder than any other time Dante got stabbed by his own swords in DmC.

[Mayhem-Ivory]

It's nice of you finally fix the line of sight system, but that's not what anybody wants for Dante. It needs to go completely.

Your "reasoning" for adding it was nonsense to begin with:

• Could be cast back to back without much forethought on positioning

This is wrong. Just straight objectively incorrect. What you would actually do is use his Dark Verse against different groups of enemies in different locations, then seek out a point where you can detonate them all with Tragedy. That is because Tragedy is expensive, and you want to cast it as little as possible!

• to make it a more active ability, enemies must now be within range in your line of sight

Again, objectively incorrect. You don't even understand the consequences of this change. The result now is that, rather than thinking and using it tactically, you get forced to use Tragedy in every single group of enemies. Just because you need to cast it more often, doesnt mean the ability is "more active"; its just brainless spam. Dark Verse already had LoS, thus forcing you to "be active" by running around to find enemies.

The problem isn't a nerf or fumbled LoS; the problem is he's no longer fun the way he was before, because his entire "tag for destruction" playstyle is gone!

And P.S. "more active ability" doesnt exist. This combination of words doesnt mean anything. An ability/playstyle can be pro-active, which the old Tragedy was (something like Gauss Mach Crush augment), it can be inter-active, which the old Tragedy was (and the old Eclipse); but being active just means that you use it. With the old Tragedy, you would "actively" run around, pro-actively seek out groups to tag with Dark Verse, and inter-actively manage your casting to limit the energy you consume. This is all gone now. Now you "actively" spam abilities on whats infront of you, with no forethought about when to use what.

I gave you the weekend, but I'm not going to just let you get away with this nonsense.

 

Let me just give an analogy for what you did with Dante and his Tragedy:

You know tose weapons that can be placed in locations and detonated later? Things like the Penta, Castanas, Talons, or most recently the Aegrit. You throw them into places or onto enemies, and then you press a button and they go boom.

All these weapons are already not good; more appropriate to say, they are all bad.

Now, imagine if these weapons required Line of Sight and had a maximum range as well while we're at it. Imagine they had a timer, and you'd just lose the grenade along with the ammo you spent if you dont trigger them within a few seconds while looking at them and within range. Suddenly they would feel pretty awful; you couldn't even move through a curved hallway without them being deactivated automatically.

Thats what you did to Dante. He tags enemies - and he is supposed to be able to move around and tag a lot of groups - but now if he is in the wrong place, its impossible for him to detonate the tagged enemies.

It's not fun. I had fun, now I don't. That is why I'm upset.

 

There is ways to solve this, but it must be done in the spirit of Dante's playstyle.

• Remove the LoS from Tragedy. Reduce or even remove the initial damage that is independant of status effects (seriously, 6500? could just be 500).
• Remove the LoS from Tragedy. Limit its effect to Slash procs or even just Dark Verse exclusively.
• Remove the LoS from Tragedy. Reduce it's range from 30 to 25 or even 20 meters to match Dark Verse more closely.
• Keep the LoS for other player's procs, but add a "marking" effect to Dark Verse that allows tagged enemies to be attacked with Tragedy through walls.
• Give the LoS Punch Through, allowing it to ignore LoS in a limited manner; something like 5 meters scaling with Ability Range.
• Remove LoS from Tragedy. Increase the casting cost of both Light Verse and Dark Verse from 25 to 35 or even 50. That would be the easiest way to address the "issue" of his abilities being cast "back to back".

 

Other issues can be addressed independently. The damage increases and overguard increases you are promising here don't help with the actual gameplay issues Dante has.

• If the Overguard is too overbearing, just have the maximum and gain scale with enemy level. This could be a flat value drawn from surrounding enemies or a damage absorption multiplier like many other frames (think a mix of Rhino's Iron Skin and Harrow's Covenant).
• The damage of Wordwarden is not the issue. Rather, it doesn't really add anything beyond damage. It has the same elements as Noctua (not that Noctua could benefit from more elements, since Galvaniced Shot doesn't work correctly on it). Neither can it be used to benefit from Tome mods (neither Invocations nor Canticles). Tome mods are supposed to be the specialty of Noctua, but since the Wordwarden is just a damage copy of it, there is not synergy.
• Pageflight gives zero agency to the player. It is also often ineffective - the damage multiplier doesn't do anything unless it is on the right enemy. The birds could fly towards the reticle when aiming down sight (similar to Sevagoth's Reap; in fact I had a bug in the simulacrum where they briefly functioned that way), or they could focus their attacks on enemies tagged by Dark Verse.

Edited April 8 by Mayhem-Ivory
typo x3

[-ShadowRadiance-]

16 hours ago, Kreepergeek645 said:

big nuke option in lower levels

-everything- is if you have a slapped a single blind rage into your build. 

To say its dominant in lower levels is such an insult. -everything-is. 

Og makes you inmortal?

Ppl aint complaining about 2k shields from harrow.

Wisp motes giving you 1k hp and a minimun 100hp/s.

Revenant ppl are complaining about.

Dantes dmg is dominant?

Watch Gyre or equinox both running through a map. That it. They -exist- and runs through a map. Thats it. Thats not considered dominant in lower levels? Even tho if they run first theres nothing left alive in the whole tileset? Keh? Ok.

I aint even gona explain the usual well known warcriminals that are named Saryn and Mirage.

If it aint capable of being "dominant" in lower level content. Its broken and needs help. Or a mercy kill to put it out of its misery like the Ripley clone from the alien movie. "Kill mee..." *gasp for air*

[nicolajtheking2]

Please please please DE just REMOVE LOS from tragedy already LOS sucks and makes everything it's used on WORSE.

[ScorpDK]

I appreciate addressing the health-damage gimmicks and them finally going to work through Overguard (and potentially other defensive layers). Thank you.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-04-07 at 3:33 PM, Gaxxian said:

Mesmer Sking should be nerfed into a 90% dmg reduction. Tops.

Yeah that has been my opinion since forever now aswell. It would have been a fix that also made sense considering how his skills sync by providing shields and on kill and so on.

Also, while I'm not against the changes to Dante, no matter if it is the LoS or OG nerf etc. I read your suggestion post and the changes you mention there for Tragedy sound sensible (great infact), since it would remove the lowbie nuking because you remove the initial damage and place everything on the DoT consumption. I think it is a bloody great idea. Though I do not mind the current LoS, since it will benefit other things aswell down the line and I've still not ran into issues with it. Done more regular content and today used Mr. D for elite deep and cells without issues.

However if DE doesnt manage to make LoS work for everyone, I think they should go with your idea and remove the initial damage and LoS requirement.

[Siic07]

Hotfix today to remove Los from Dante? ❤❤❤❤

[MetalMechabolic]

22 minutes ago, Siic07 said:

Hotfix today to remove Los from Dante? ❤❤❤❤

"We've already made a big correction by fixing the new Line of Sight calculations which were, to put it bluntly, not as good as they should have been on release."

I doubt it, for some reason they are digging their heels into the decision and just planning to "fix" LoS.  Reminds me of when Yoshida "fixed" SMN and turned it into a generic mage with different visual effects instead of fixing the pet aspect of SMN.  At least the movement is a lot more exciting here than on XIV, lol.

Edited April 8 by MetalMechabolic

[Circle_of_Psi]

15 minutes ago, MetalMechabolic said:

"We've already made a big correction by fixing the new Line of Sight calculations which were, to put it bluntly, not as good as they should have been on release."

I doubt it, for some reason they are digging their heels into the decision and just planning to "fix" LoS.  Reminds me of when Yoshida "fixed" SMN and turned it into a generic mage with different visual effects instead of fixing the pet aspect of SMN.  At least the movement is a lot more exciting here than on XIV, lol.

Seems a bit stubborn if you ask me, as long as they ever the other stuff, I suppose players will accept the LoS Fix

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

3 hours ago, Siic07 said:

Hotfix today to remove Los from Dante? ❤❤❤❤

Hopefully because LOS is a horrible mechanic that is very buggy and has a horrendously weard hit system 

Your character can block it

Your guns can block it

A super small object can block it 

Even a shadow somehow can block it 

I dont know why they want to push this crapy system onto us but its not fun and needs to go 

 

3 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Seems a bit stubborn if you ask me, as long as they ever the other stuff, I suppose players will accept the LoS Fix

Nope thousands won't its a crapy mechanic and should be taken out of the game completely its extremely buggy and horrible

[Gaxxian]

hace 1 hora, SneakyErvin dijo:

Also, while I'm not against the changes to Dante, no matter if it is the LoS or OG nerf etc. I read your suggestion post and the changes you mention there for Tragedy sound sensible (great infact), since it would remove the lowbie nuking because you remove the initial damage and place everything on the DoT consumption. I think it is a bloody great idea. Though I do not mind the current LoS, since it will benefit other things aswell down the line and I've still not ran into issues with it. Done more regular content and today used Mr. D for elite deep and cells without issues.

 

Thanks! :) 

Yes, Dante can complete that content without issues, but it just feels... off... and its very noticeable if you played the frame before and after the changes... Thats why i tried with those proposals, to preserve that characteristic gameplay that he had before the nerfs, while tackling the issues that arised at low levels (since i think that those are the reason for the LoS...).

[Circle_of_Psi]

20 minutes ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

Nope thousands won't its a crapy mechanic and should be taken out of the game completely its extremely buggy and horrible

Fair enough

[captn_Pat]

Remember that time Gandalf used a shotgun because his 4 had line of sight? It was one of the worst plot twists in cinema. REVERT THE DANTE LOS CHANGES.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Gaxxian said:

Thanks! :) 

Yes, Dante can complete that content without issues, but it just feels... off... and its very noticeable if you played the frame before and after the changes... Thats why i tried with those proposals, to preserve that characteristic gameplay that he had before the nerfs, while tackling the issues that arised at low levels (since i think that those are the reason for the LoS...).

Yup, you and me are in the same boat regarding why the LoS was added. I'm 99.99% sure that is DEs reasoning regarding it, and I dont think many people realize how crazy it is for a skill to deal 6500 damage baseline when you are on the star chart. And I really think most of the really vocal and obnoxious screaming is due to that no longer being possible. I'm fairly sure those same people would blow a couple of additional fuses if your idea was added aswell, which just makes me want to see your idea implemented all the more! 

[MetalMechabolic]

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yup, you and me are in the same boat regarding why the LoS was added. I'm 99.99% sure that is DEs reasoning regarding it, and I dont think many people realize how crazy it is for a skill to deal 6500 damage baseline when you are on the star chart. And I really think most of the really vocal and obnoxious screaming is due to that no longer being possible. I'm fairly sure those same people would blow a couple of additional fuses if your idea was added aswell, which just makes me want to see your idea implemented all the more! 

Pushing for spite nerfs?  Now we are getting spicy~!

[Britishbong]

any plans to alter the negative range of nezha new augment mod 50% is very steep 

[Gandalf_White]

29 minutes ago, captn_Pat said:

Remember that time Gandalf used a shotgun because his 4 had line of sight? It was one of the worst plot twists in cinema. REVERT THE DANTE LOS CHANGES.

As Gandalf I +1 this.

 

Revert the LoS nerf.

[LordOfKenpo]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

Hopefully because LOS is a horrible mechanic that is very buggy and has a horrendously weard hit system 

Your character can block it

Your guns can block it

A super small object can block it 

Even a shadow somehow can block it 

I dont know why they want to push this crapy system onto us but its not fun and needs to go 

Don't forget its affected by player settings since FoV affects it as well

[crazywolfpusher]

Just now, LordOfKenpo said:

Don't forget its affected by player settings since FoV affects it as well

Mesa fire rate is also affected by player FPS cap.

Mirage Prism is also affected by player fps if I'm not wrong.

 

[LordOfKenpo]

11 minutes ago, crazywolfpusher said:

Mesa fire rate is also affected by player FPS cap.

Mirage Prism is also affected by player fps if I'm not wrong.

 

Yeah these all feel like bugs to me since these sorts of things should be determined server side not client side (especially since client side allows for potential cheating)

[-ShadowRadiance-]

2 hours ago, Siic07 said:

Hotfix today to remove Los from Dante? ❤❤❤❤

🔥🔥💯💯🔥🔥

[LordOfKenpo]

2 hours ago, Siic07 said:

Hotfix today to remove Los from Dante? ❤❤❤❤

was this announced and if so, where?

[Nero.DMC]

8 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

was this announced and if so, where?

it was not, that's what the ? mean at the end

DE please remove LoS from Dante, it sucks 

[Shinoyami65]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yup, you and me are in the same boat regarding why the LoS was added. I'm 99.99% sure that is DEs reasoning regarding it, and I dont think many people realize how crazy it is for a skill to deal 6500 damage baseline when you are on the star chart. And I really think most of the really vocal and obnoxious screaming is due to that no longer being possible. I'm fairly sure those same people would blow a couple of additional fuses if your idea was added aswell, which just makes me want to see your idea implemented all the more! 

I mean, they allowed Thermal Sunder to exist and be a subsumable you can slap on a Titania to nuke low-level star chart without LoS while moving at light speed. Tragedy honestly isn't that crazy compared to all the other toys you can bring into star chart these days.

Edited April 8 by Shinoyami65

[MrDugan]

On 2024-04-05 at 8:20 PM, TheTundraTerror said:

You guys have been around for 30 years but you can't figure out how to make LoS checks function?

Broski, they acted like the player not getting stuck on invisible level geometry was impossible until literally the last mainline update.  They acted like not getting stuck on the corner of a box was revolutionary tech when nearly every other game I've ever played has that "sticky corners issue" solved right out of the box.  They were talking about the guy that fixed it on stream, and practically mocked him when they talked about how he heard about the issue and said he could fix it.  It should come as no surprise that they can't make LOS function properly.

 

3 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Seems a bit stubborn if you ask me, as long as they ever the other stuff, I suppose players will accept the LoS Fix

I know I as an individual don't matter for much, but I won't accept it.  They're on permanent thin ice with me because of how many times they've taken things I've invested in and nerfed them into an early grave.  It's not even just meta stuff.  They nerfed the Arca Titron this patch.  And that thin ice means that they don't have to screw up much for me to stop playing.