Aight, if overguard is made to make all CC useless, let's extend it to abilities in general

[0_The_F00l]

28 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

I'm liking this idea better

Make it twice as much work, but not downright useless

Precisely

Nullifiers have a drone you can shoot or just do enough rapid fire damage to destroy.

So maybe , a specific weak point that when damaged destroys the nullifier bubble / overguard.

Any insta CC effects (blind , ragdoll ) reduce the nullifier/overguard by a fixed percentage , and sustained CC (Bastille , chaos sphere ) drain overguard at a fixed rate., 

[Aruquae]

40 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Nullifiers have a drone you can shoot or just do enough rapid fire damage to destroy.

Keep in mind the size of the model is different from the size of the hitbox

I can shoot the drone with an arrow and it'll only hit the bubble, so adding another specific spot would make eximus more annoying instead of a challenge (because you know full well the hitbox will be bugged)

42 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Any insta CC effects (blind , ragdoll ) reduce the nullifier/overguard by a fixed percentage , and sustained CC (Bastille , chaos sphere ) drain overguard at a fixed rate., 

Ohhhh I like this idea... kind of like a shield that can only sustain so much power
Would have to be a fixed point rather than scaling to compensate (because if they left it up to the abilities, bastille could shred it as fast as shredding armor) , you can always kill them with your actual weapons

[SneakyErvin]

I just find it so fun that people are upset over OG cucking CC. Can you guys atleast stop acting as if we actually have a vast part of the roster that rely on CCs and struggle due to OG?

Honestly, I can name 1 single frame that actually suffers from it, 1 out of 56(?). And that is poor Mr. Limbo, not even in his fancy top hat do they give a S#&$ about him (maybe they once were grouped with a Limbo). Every other frame either comes with damage or things tied to their CCs that make it work versus OG aswell. If you honestly think there are more frames than Lamebo that are so SoL versus OG please give a few examples.

[Silligoose]

18 hours ago, Aruquae said:

The amount of times I mention overguard (for eximus in particular) making ANY CC reliant frame's life miserable is always met with "Just shoot them"
Alright, completely fair and valid, I do shoot them, and they die. It's nice

But then I look at damage frames... and realized just how severely punished CC frames are compared to them

DE talking about how they don't want to nuke rooms, understandable... so why do you keep on indirectly buffing nukers? 
Why not make overguard (for eximus in particular) immune to ALL types of abilities? That'll even out the playing field, CC frames can't CC, that makes the eximus a priority. Nuke frames won't be able to nuke the entire room along with eximus, which also makes them more of a primary target that you can kill with your weapons. 

I am ready for the large amounts of "Bad take" 

Overguard is a terrible band-aid solution implemented in lieu of properly balancing certain cc mechanics. Devs discussed the how wildly imbalanced it can be with regards to frame viability, but basically shrugged it off with an "oh well". Based on their discussions on the matter, they do not appear willing or able to address the power of cc properly and as such lazy band-aids likely remain par for the course.

Sometimes it sucks to see what happens to hand-me-downs, but such is life.

[Aruquae]

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I just find it so fun that people are upset over OG cucking CC. Can you guys atleast stop acting as if we actually have a vast part of the roster that rely on CCs and struggle due to OG?

Honestly, I can name 1 single frame that actually suffers from it, 1 out of 56(?). And that is poor Mr. Limbo, not even in his fancy top hat do they give a S#&$ about him (maybe they once were grouped with a Limbo). Every other frame either comes with damage or things tied to their CCs that make it work versus OG aswell. If you honestly think there are more frames than Lamebo that are so SoL versus OG please give a few examples.

Limbo yes, then we got Banshee, Nyx, Zephyr's poor CC (unless it's just bugged, cause it's Zephyr), a popular Yareli playstyle that involves max range, minimal strength, and high efficiency for CC spamming is botched. Nova's CC galore is also screwed. Xaku's CC gets screwed from overguard, and Vauban's CC is well, botched. Khora's kit also revolves around CC, so it's affected. 

Some abilities that are important to a warframe also gets screwed

Ash's targeting gets screwed from this, Garuda's dread mirror which is a major part of her kit, Harrow's condemn leaving him shieldless, which is an obvious no no. 

And, Ervin, don't you think it targets CC frames specifically, a little too much? This is simply to balance everything out, nuker frames won't have a higher advantage over CC frames because they all have to now prioritize eximus. Sure someone's going to say "jUsT kILl tHe eXimUs with gUNs" to which I would respond, "Ok, nuke frames can do that too." Of course, the other frames a mentioned is probably going to receive a response such as "All of these frames don't are not full CC frames, as they still have some utility outside of CC," but that's the thing... their primary utility is STILL CC. Sure, they got damage reduction, but that's not their PRIMARY thing (unless we're talking about Baruuk). 

If you have a counterpoint, please say it. This is an argument (just because are opinions are clashing), but i've seen how respectful you are when arguing, so I will be too. 

Hit me with your counterpoints!

[SneakyErvin]

14 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Limbo yes, then we got Banshee, Nyx, Zephyr's poor CC (unless it's just bugged, cause it's Zephyr), a popular Yareli playstyle that involves max range, minimal strength, and high efficiency for CC spamming is botched. Nova's CC galore is also screwed. Xaku's CC gets screwed from overguard, and Vauban's CC is well, botched. Khora's kit also revolves around CC, so it's affected. 

Some abilities that are important to a warframe also gets screwed

Ash's targeting gets screwed from this, Garuda's dread mirror which is a major part of her kit, Harrow's condemn leaving him shieldless, which is an obvious no no. 

And, Ervin, don't you think it targets CC frames specifically, a little too much? This is simply to balance everything out, nuker frames won't have a higher advantage over CC frames because they all have to now prioritize eximus. Sure someone's going to say "jUsT kILl tHe eXimUs with gUNs" to which I would respond, "Ok, nuke frames can do that too." Of course, the other frames a mentioned is probably going to receive a response such as "All of these frames don't are not full CC frames, as they still have some utility outside of CC," but that's the thing... their primary utility is STILL CC. Sure, they got damage reduction, but that's not their PRIMARY thing (unless we're talking about Baruuk). 

If you have a counterpoint, please say it. This is an argument (just because are opinions are clashing), but i've seen how respectful you are when arguing, so I will be too. 

Hit me with your counterpoints!

Nope not really true. I'll line them each up.

Banshee: Only has her short stun stopped by eximus. Still removes their abilities/auras. She is also not a CC frame, she is a debuffer. Her CC lasts a whole whooping second and is a secondary effect to what the skill actually does. And I sure as hell hope you dont talk about her quake here, since who the #*!% stops to quake in order to CC? Like say DE suddenly allows for eximus CC through OG, on what planet in what universe or reality would you go "zomg I can finaly quake it!!!!!"? None hopefully since all you'd do is bounce it around while dealing abyssmal damage and locking yourself out of all actions.

Nyx: Still adds confusion as she CCs everything around the OG target. Also has a strip and massive tanking potential. Does not rely on CC.

Zephyr: Not restricted a bit, since you know... you can actually target the eximus and trag everything to it instead of dragging it to others. Tornadoes still wreck eximus that walk near them since they still deal damage.

Yareli: Doesnt rely on CC and everything around the eximus is still CCed. So you simply laugh at the feeble damage you tank through Merulia as you waste the eximus. Can also pull of a Zephyr.

Nova: She counter CCs, simple as that. Built for slow? Everything else comes slower as the eximus is singled out. Built for speed? Everything comes faster as the eximus is singled out and left behind? Still takes massive damage from allies detonating next to it.

Xaku: You dont have to try and CC the eximus when you have 20 other targets around aswell.

Vauban: No the eximus will still walk your way and get shredded by flechettes. Can also handle it like Zephyr and pull everything ontop of the eximus to nuke it all.

Khora: No just no. She annihilates things with the whip alone. And if you have say 24 enemies where 4 are eximus a dome will still grab 20. You can then whip the eximus which also splashes to the dangling ones in the dome, spreading it to all 20 plus whatever amount of eximus you hit directly.

Ash and Garuda: They arent CC frames to begin with. You also have more targets on a map than OG targets. You have extremely few OG targets in reality.

Which is really the whole problem with the reasoning regarding OG and CC, since it is only a fraction of the enemies you face that have OG, everything else can be CCed to handle the eximus if needed. That is the whole point, so not everything could be CCed and killed. So you had to put focus on something that was a slight threat. And nuker frames dont have a higher advantage, they still need to focus the eximus while not having an option to handle the trash, or they clear the trash and then focus on the eximus. Most AoE on frames is really too weak to passively and effectively handle the eximus and the strong damage is often much more focused, like a gun or melee. So it really just comes down to which way a frame removes the adds from the picture as they kill the eximus. CC frames CC the adds, damage frames kill the adds and dent the OG and then focus on the eximus.

People need to stop with the disengeneous reasoning where they make it seem like everything gets CC immune the moment a single eximus shows up. Again, it is just the eximus that is immune out of all the mobs around it.

[Aruquae]

38 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

People need to stop with the disengeneous reasoning where they make it seem like everything gets CC immune the moment a single eximus shows up. Again, it is just the eximus that is immune out of all the mobs around it.

Ohhhh but this post is just a petition to make eximus units immune to frame abilities in general

Have you even used those CC frames in any steel path? Eximus aren't a rare thing, it's noticeable. You're thinking of all of them as a damage frame (Khora in particular), but that's not what they are. Khora whipclaw, for example, is the only part of her abilities that actually do damage (unless Venari is a secret assassin, doubt though), thus making her mostly pointed to CC. You're thinking of the DPS form of Vauban and Zephyr, when I was referring to their CC forms. The Yareli playstyle I was referring to is a CC playstyle, and you notice the difference when multiple eximus show up the longer you play. 

Sure, the thought process of "You can CC everyone else," is completely valid, but you neglect to notice how common eximus actually are in anything that's not base star chart. You also forgot to mention the point of this whole post was about making eximus a priority for nukers too. I'm not asking for change for a CC change. 

[Xzorn]

I didn't hear anything on Dev streams I was catching up on or the Patch Notes which introduced Overguard Eximus that it was targeting CC and protection like Snow Globe. I feel like that's a very important part of the outcome of giving Eximus Overguard. We and likely DE knows but officially it was to make them more durable.

There are plenty of less disruptive ways to make enemies more durable. HP/Shield scaling and Weak Points for instance.

DE actually tried Weak Points already but it was some goofy 5 points before you can hurt the Eximus instead of using enemy natural weak points. After they missed almost every shot on stream they didn't add it. It was kinda hilarious. Like they had just tested it live and went oh, that doesn't work.

So the real question about Eximus Overguard is, should they have it at all over any number of better options?

[Yousho]

21 hours ago, ominumi said:

What DE needs to do is to make it so Overguard is totally immune to ALL warframe abilities. Even damage abilities. Or add a damage component to CC abilities.

Perhaps attempting to CC an overguarded unit could take a chunk out of the overguard itself?

[ECCHOSIERRA]

7 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Limbo yes, then we got Banshee, Nyx, Zephyr's poor CC (unless it's just bugged, cause it's Zephyr), a popular Yareli playstyle that involves max range, minimal strength, and high efficiency for CC spamming is botched. Nova's CC galore is also screwed. Xaku's CC gets screwed from overguard, and Vauban's CC is well, botched. Khora's kit also revolves around CC, so it's affected. 

Some abilities that are important to a warframe also gets screwed

Ash's targeting gets screwed from this, Garuda's dread mirror which is a major part of her kit, Harrow's condemn leaving him shieldless, which is an obvious no no. 

And, Ervin, don't you think it targets CC frames specifically, a little too much? This is simply to balance everything out, nuker frames won't have a higher advantage over CC frames because they all have to now prioritize eximus. Sure someone's going to say "jUsT kILl tHe eXimUs with gUNs" to which I would respond, "Ok, nuke frames can do that too." Of course, the other frames a mentioned is probably going to receive a response such as "All of these frames don't are not full CC frames, as they still have some utility outside of CC," but that's the thing... their primary utility is STILL CC. Sure, they got damage reduction, but that's not their PRIMARY thing (unless we're talking about Baruuk). 

If you have a counterpoint, please say it. This is an argument (just because are opinions are clashing), but i've seen how respectful you are when arguing, so I will be too. 

Hit me with your counterpoints!

My issue is the crackdown on CC combined with other things particularly the harsh consequences of dying in "endgame" content like archon hunts or DA. 

The most important thing is "dont die" because there is no self rez. It doesnt matter what my kill rate is or damage potential is if I just die and lose out on the rewards. 

So the best possible choice is "a frame that im pretty sure wont die". Not-die in this game generally comes from 3 things. Damage (kill them first) CC, (remove their ability to kill you), and tankiness. (Be hard to kill).

Yes, the overguard changes were obviously gonna happen sooner or later but i still think theyre bad for the game because it results in less viable options for the player.

I do understand them wanting to do *something* with cc because being able to turn the ai off in an entire room is, objectively, pretty freaking strong. 

Maybe there should be a grey area between "enemy is stunned and completely imobilized and helpless" and "enemy is straight up immune".

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

People need to stop with the disengeneous reasoning where they make it seem like everything gets CC immune the moment a single eximus shows up. Again, it is just the eximus that is immune out of all the mobs around it.

Its worth mentioning that "additional eximus units" seems to be a thing DE likes putting in new "endgame" content, like archimedea. 

There can, in some cases, actually be a decent number of enemies with overguard on screen at once. 

Its not like they're "rare" and even if they were, here's the thing. 

Just to make a point here if there's 10 enemies in a room and 2 of them have overguard that's 2 that are going to be immune to cc no matter what. 

In normal star chart missions yeah who gives a crap but when they're level 100-400 or higher that matters to some frames. 

You have frames like inaros or revenant who can just laugh and face tank the enemies in question reguardless and you have other frames that either *cant* deal with it, or need more active crutches like rolling guard to deal with it. 

 

Its unfair to certain frames. Mesa for example couldnt give a crap less about overguard but its a way bigger deal for a frame like, idk, excalibur who isnt *particularly* tanky.

 

And im sure youre gonna wanna come back and tell me "BUT ACKSHUALLY"- 

i'll tell you right now i dont care. Yes, I know any frame can be made survivable with enough bandaids crammed into your build but it still feels unfairly punishing to certain frames that rely on cc to either stay alive outright or at a minimum *buffer* their survivability.

 

And every single frame you just wanted to split hairs about still is less survivable because of overguard immunity to cc, period. 

 

[Xzorn]

4 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Yes, the overguard changes were obviously gonna happen sooner or later but i still think theyre bad for the game because it results in less viable options for the player.

I do understand them wanting to do *something* with cc because being able to turn the ai off in an entire room is, objectively, pretty freaking strong.

 

Thing is the crusade against CC is nearly a decade old now and DE has already done plenty. Majority of the frames with room wide CC are the old ones. They simply stopped making frames like that. First Line of Sight which made sense, then Ancient Disruptors, Nullifiers and now Overguard. They've done enough.

They've done so much in fact that eHP/Immune + DPS became the best option in most missions. Then they go and nerf enemy Defense Scaling so they die instantly which makes no sense at all to me. Kill an enemy instantly or stop it's ability to shoot you. Which is worse? At least you could make a mistake and die with CC.

They're just making the game less fun and as you said ruining playstyle options along with their own ability to be creative with frames.

We all lose.

[Lord_Chibi]

On 2024-04-05 at 5:52 PM, Zakkhar said:

 

You can cc everything else that is not overguarded eeximus. If you do not also nuke evertything the eximus will not even spawn. But you people alwyas have to nuke, CC-able enemies die and Eximus spawn and you go pikachuface.jpg.

True but then your team nukes which is counter productive.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Ohhhh but this post is just a petition to make eximus units immune to frame abilities in general

Have you even used those CC frames in any steel path? Eximus aren't a rare thing, it's noticeable. You're thinking of all of them as a damage frame (Khora in particular), but that's not what they are. Khora whipclaw, for example, is the only part of her abilities that actually do damage (unless Venari is a secret assassin, doubt though), thus making her mostly pointed to CC. You're thinking of the DPS form of Vauban and Zephyr, when I was referring to their CC forms. The Yareli playstyle I was referring to is a CC playstyle, and you notice the difference when multiple eximus show up the longer you play. 

Sure, the thought process of "You can CC everyone else," is completely valid, but you neglect to notice how common eximus actually are in anything that's not base star chart. You also forgot to mention the point of this whole post was about making eximus a priority for nukers too. I'm not asking for change for a CC change. 

Yeah, have used them all in SP. And I'm not thinking of the DPS, I'm thinking of the whole kit on each frame. Hence why I say they have more than CC and doesnt rely on it to get things done. And Khora is a damage frame, which is why all skills in her kit are designed to push her dps even higher by syncing. The worst Khora is a Khora built for CC, since all she does is slow missions to a crawl as enemies are dragged and dangling in some forgotten corner of a map. As to the other frames, it is really a "you" problem if you snow in one a specific part of a kit that is ment to work as a whole.

Eximus arent that common. There is an effective cap of 4 in SP for a solo player in endless (death squads and mission variables not included), and in non-endless they are sporadically spread throughout the map. So if you know you have a hard time with eximus, dont blitz mindlessly and dont play in a manner that gets you surrounded in endless.

Plus if you wanna make enemies immune to abilities in general because they are immune to CC abilities then you should be consistant and ask for them to be immune to ranged weapons aswell since some ranged weapons CC and had that interaction fixed aswell versus Eximus units. Though it is absurd to ask for them to be immune to abilities, since that pulls all damage down into the same pit even though the majority of frames do not have mindless AoE as damage skills. And it also penalizes the frame that is already worst off out of all when it comes to Eximus, since suddenly Lamebo cant even pick up thermal sunder (or other damaging abilities) to help him stay safe inside his rift while killing eximus units outside.

12 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Its worth mentioning that "additional eximus units" seems to be a thing DE likes putting in new "endgame" content, like archimedea. 

There can, in some cases, actually be a decent number of enemies with overguard on screen at once. 

Of course, but that is also content ment to be "hard". Things like SP Duviri Experience bonus portals would be a totally pointless addition if Eximus units were not CC immune, since that "difficulty" would suddenly not be there, because everything would sit in a glowy net, have hentai funtime or a BDSM lesson etc. You can just see how breach surge and stomp trivialized it. It is only in missions with special modifiers that you see several overguard units at once and they have those modifiers simply so people cannot lock everything down with the press of a button. I know people love to bring up Mesa and Saryn, but when you bring those to something like bonus portals they arent exactly shining because their skills wont instantly wipe that horde of eximus, while CC would if there was no immunity, which effectively would be the same as a 1HK since the threat is removed.

One of the most broken things in those places was Rhino with breach surge, because you'd just surge+stomp and everything would either be blind, floating or radiated as you took your merry time picking them of with whatever weapons you had. Completely removing everything that the mission setup was designed for. And if you didnt have access to Rhino, then any frame with helminthed breach surge worked well aswell. If you had S#&$ty pulls you could always just breach surge+operator+pew pew pew to spread sparks and radiation all over.

12 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Its not like they're "rare" and even if they were, here's the thing. 

Just to make a point here if there's 10 enemies in a room and 2 of them have overguard that's 2 that are going to be immune to cc no matter what. 

In normal star chart missions yeah who gives a crap but when they're level 100-400 or higher that matters to some frames. 

There will only be up to 4 regularly, so they are rather rare in higher content like SP where you have the screen filled with mobs. And in other missions they tend to come one by one as you move on throughout the mission. I also dont see how they matter to some frames. An eximus is really nothing more than several mobs jammed into one due to their EHP. Their damage is the same as any other mob of their type, the lethal aspect of them is tied to their abilities, which arent exactly hard to avoid. So if the Eximus is a threat, then everything else is a threat too, so any time you manage to miss CCing a single mob you face the same threat as the eximus really. But I'm fairly sure you arent running around and constantly CCing things in content you play. If you are in 100-400 content, you will very likely also carry things that will end them instantly.

12 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

You have frames like inaros or revenant who can just laugh and face tank the enemies in question reguardless and you have other frames that either *cant* deal with it, or need more active crutches like rolling guard to deal with it. 

Its unfair to certain frames. Mesa for example couldnt give a crap less about overguard but its a way bigger deal for a frame like, idk, excalibur who isnt *particularly* tanky.

You can make practically any frame tanky enough these days to survive well into level 200+ content without relying on rolling guard. It's mostly that people refuse to, since they are under the assumption that they need more strength instead or something, when their damage is likely already high enough to overkill for hundreds of levels. They just stack that damage even though they will likely never play content where they need it and it wont kill things faster in the content they do frequently.

12 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

And every single frame you just wanted to split hairs about still is less survivable because of overguard immunity to cc, period. 

Uhm... nope they arent really. Some of them are, like Khora, but she is also a frame that is easily tanky enough to survive without it in versus an eximus. 

Zephyr, Xaku, Nyx, Banshee, Ash and Garuda no. All of them have their survival rooted in other things aswell or practically have no actual CC at all. Nyx for instance can MC any regular mob she wants near an Eximus in order to keep it distracted while using chaos on everything else, since aggro in WF targets the closest enemy, in addition to that she can tank whatever she wants with her 4. Yareli is a 90% DR tank, so has no need for her CC aside from being a damage buffer or grouping tool for her, she likely loses more health if she decides to stop and focus on CC due to the travel time of her water balloons. And Nova doesnt positively have any CC, since most people will either run neutral or +speed even in SP+ content simply for the damage buff or to speed missions up. So shes far from being more vulnerable due to OG CC immunity because she is mostly already suicidal or indifferent to the thought. Ash has no survival tied to his teleport/finisher. Garuda isnt required to jump an eximus just because an eximus is around, she can pick any other mob in order to activate her mirror right in that moment and she is still just as invulnerable when casting abilities versus eximus shots and incoming abilities like shockwave/heatwave etc.

Vauban however, yes, he certainly is less survivable. That however doesnt mean he must rely on his CC or that it is any crisis when he cant CC something. He is also likely out of sight anyways since you probably want things to not have something to shoot at, so they can get clear of obstacles in order to get vortexed properly into your flechette orbs. But hey, maybe you run into alot of eximus spawning right ontop of you? I know I dont.

[Aruquae]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Plus if you wanna make enemies immune to abilities in general because they are immune to CC abilities then you should be consistant and ask for them to be immune to ranged weapons aswell since some ranged weapons CC and had that interaction fixed aswell versus Eximus units. Though it is absurd to ask for them to be immune to abilities, since that pulls all damage down into the same pit even though the majority of frames do not have mindless AoE as damage skills. And it also penalizes the frame that is already worst off out of all when it comes to Eximus, since suddenly Lamebo cant even pick up thermal sunder (or other damaging abilities) to help him stay safe inside his rift while killing eximus units outside.

Good, now that you think in this way... isn't that the exact same situation CC frames are in? I want them to all be in the same pit, not just CC

Of course, taking your advice... "just kill them with guns"

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Of course, but that is also content ment to be "hard".

There is a difference between hard and just not useable, circuit defense highlights just how hard a CC frame struggles compared to a nuker (or just DPS frame)

 

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And Khora is a damage frame,

Only one of her abilities damages, sure she has synergy between all the others tht let's her damage them, but you have to CC them first. See the problem?

 

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You can make practically any frame tanky enough these days to survive well into level 200+ content without relying on rolling guard. It's mostly that people refuse to, since they are under the assumption that they need more strength instead or something, when their damage is likely already high enough to overkill for hundreds of levels. They just stack that damage even though they will likely never play content where they need it and it wont kill things faster in the content they do frequently

Yes....? Because tank frames are built to tank. Notice how CC frames are usually built to be squishy? They're purposefully built squishy because their whole thing is to not get hit. Think of them as... controllers. You are made to control the map, with control... you will die. Of course you're going to throw in the "most have damage mitigation abilities," but why would I pick a frame for one ability? 
Why are you so against eximus being immune to all abilities? All of your points can easily contribute to all of the solutions you can have for if this feature did exist

[Berzerkules]

I kind of wish that enemies with overguard ignored all abilities on release so there was more push back from players from the beginning. 

If every frame was equally punished by eximus rework players would see exactly how bad of a design decision it really is.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-04-05 at 2:36 PM, Aruquae said:

The amount of times I mention overguard (for eximus in particular) making ANY CC reliant frame's life miserable is always met with "Just shoot them"
Alright, completely fair and valid, I do shoot them, and they die. It's nice

But then I look at damage frames... and realized just how severely punished CC frames are compared to them

DE talking about how they don't want to nuke rooms, understandable... so why do you keep on indirectly buffing nukers? 
Why not make overguard (for eximus in particular) immune to ALL types of abilities? That'll even out the playing field, CC frames can't CC, that makes the eximus a priority. Nuke frames won't be able to nuke the entire room along with eximus, which also makes them more of a primary target that you can kill with your weapons. 

I am ready for the large amounts of "Bad take" 

I don't get it. Are these eximus dudes so powerful that they just destroy you guys? C'mon, spit out: which CC frames are going through such a hopeless, dreadful,  absolutely horrendous time that this discussion needs to keep coming up?

[Berzerkules]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I don't get it. Are these eximus dudes so powerful that they just destroy you guys? C'mon, spit out: which CC frames are going through such a hopeless, dreadful,  absolutely horrendous time that this discussion needs to keep coming up?

Look at Banshee, the brief 2 second stagger on enemies as they enter silence range was enough time to deal with most enemies including eximus before the eximus rework. Now even though eximus abilities as nullified they still have their weapons and will kill you with them. 

Or look at elemental casters like gyre and ember, they are both capable of mass spreading status effects. Electric tesla chain and heat ignite effects are good soft cc but it doesn't matter how many fodder enemies are effected when the dangerous ones give zero #*!%s. 

Then we have frames like Revenant, he doesn't care that he can't enthrall an eximus because mesmer skin exists. We also have Rhino with iron skin and roar, he never needed to cast stomp to cc eximus because he tanks and buffs damage. Eximus pose little to no threat for these type of frames. 

There is a huge difference between frames that rely on cc for survival and frames that don't, everyone should be able to realize this. If a frame is designed around cc abilities then there are key parts of their kit that do absolutely nothing to some of the most dangerous enemies in the game and since we are "forced" to build to brute force our way through overguard we melt standard trash mobs and they don't really matter. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Bad take. Only because it doesn't go far enough. We should extend it to every source of harm everywhere. 

I have a family friend, older guy, two cloned kids, a Kubrow, solo father. Wife left him for a rich Corpus tinhat. Worked the night shift in the Kuva Fortress for 2 decades. No overtime pay, no pay rises, no sick leaves, no vacations, and nothing for his commitment and loyalty to the Queens. The stuff he had to endure... You know the Hyekka Master's just let their Hyekka's piss where ever they want? Yeah my buddy had to clean up that piss, even though it wasn't in his contract. Grineer may like to advertise they are a family of brothers and sisters, but thats only so they can have BS work policies and take advantage of you. 

Anyway, my main point is, he finally made Eximus last year, and he earned that resistance and near immortality and you want to take it away? Instead we should make him immune to everything, including the sun eventually dying and going super nova, and the heat death of the Universe. The only things left in existence will be Eximus, floating through the cold cold vacuum of existence, trillions of years in the future, in a time so dank and lifeless, that nothing will really much anyway, including terms like existence, or CC, or Hyekka piss. 

Wait what?

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

16 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Look at Banshee, the brief 2 second stagger on enemies as they enter silence range was enough time to deal with most enemies including eximus before the eximus rework. Now even though eximus abilities as nullified they still have their weapons and will kill you with them. 

Or look at elemental casters like gyre and ember, they are both capable of mass spreading status effects. Electric tesla chain and heat ignite effects are good soft cc but it doesn't matter how many fodder enemies are effected when the dangerous ones give zero #*!%s. 

Then we have frames like Revenant, he doesn't care that he can't enthrall an eximus because mesmer skin exists. We also have Rhino with iron skin and roar, he never needed to cast stomp to cc eximus because he tanks and buffs damage. Eximus pose little to no threat for these type of frames. 

There is a huge difference between frames that rely on cc for survival and frames that don't, everyone should be able to realize this. If a frame is designed around cc abilities then there are key parts of their kit that do absolutely nothing to some of the most dangerous enemies in the game and since we are "forced" to build to brute force our way through overguard we melt standard trash mobs and they don't really matter. 

And this is what I don't get. There aren't enough eximus units at a time for the frames you mentioned to be in such a bad position that we can't concentrate our fire on them while the mobs are under CC. To me, it makes perfect sense in this game to have weaker enemies succumb to room lockable abilities while the far fewer and much stronger "mini boss" style enemies can power through them. It would feel pointless to have EVERYTHING pose a minimal threat, especially in endurance SP, where I think this argument is stemming from. Even then, we're talking about much higher endurance levels where the game SHOULD be trying to wipe you out faster with more out of norms tactics like adding significantly more eximus enemies. At that point, very few frames are relying on most abilities and, instead, are using everything cohesively....or should be.

On a side note, I am assuming it is the squishiness of some of these frames that is part of the issue? Ember aside (who is a mega tank), I can see your angle but that's why we have mods and arcanes to balance that. This could be why I am not seeing the CC frame issue as an issue. I hate the low shield gating method, so I build every frame to at least have high health and at least 1500 armor (arcane guardian's 900 armor is added to get there for some frames) so they can take some hits and allow mods like Adaptation and Shock Absorbers to get me to a comfortable, consistent level of defense. Maybe I'm in the minority by doing this, but this keeps frames like Limbo, Nyx, Yareli and Volt in a tanky enough spot for me to have a lot more fun with my full arsenal. 

 

16 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Bad take. Only because it doesn't go far enough. We should extend it to every source of harm everywhere. 

I have a family friend, older guy, two cloned kids, a Kubrow, solo father. Wife left him for a rich Corpus tinhat. Worked the night shift in the Kuva Fortress for 2 decades. No overtime pay, no pay rises, no sick leaves, no vacations, and nothing for his commitment and loyalty to the Queens. The stuff he had to endure... You know the Hyekka Master's just let their Hyekka's piss where ever they want? Yeah my buddy had to clean up that piss, even though it wasn't in his contract. Grineer may like to advertise they are a family of brothers and sisters, but thats only so they can have BS work policies and take advantage of you. 

Anyway, my main point is, he finally made Eximus last year, and he earned that resistance and near immortality and you want to take it away? Instead we should make him immune to everything, including the sun eventually dying and going super nova, and the heat death of the Universe. The only things left in existence will be Eximus, floating through the cold cold vacuum of existence, trillions of years in the future, in a time so dank and lifeless, that nothing will really much anyway, including terms like existence, or CC, or Hyekka piss. 

Wait what?

I freaking love this story. Always cooking through with the fun my friend. 😂 

It's just too bad clones have such a short lifespan. Sadness

[Berzerkules]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

And this is what I don't get. There aren't enough eximus units at a time for the frames you mentioned to be in such a bad position that we can't concentrate our fire on them while the mobs are under CC. To me, it makes perfect sense in this game to have weaker enemies succumb to room lockable abilities while the far fewer and much stronger "mini boss" style enemies can power through them. It would feel pointless to have EVERYTHING pose a minimal threat, especially in endurance SP, where I think this argument is stemming from. Even then, we're talking about much higher endurance levels where the game SHOULD be trying to wipe you out faster with more out of norms tactics like adding significantly more eximus enemies. At that point, very few frames are relying on most abilities and, instead, are using everything cohesively....or should be.

On a side note, I am assuming it is the squishiness of some of these frames that is part of the issue? Ember aside (who is a mega tank), I can see your angle but that's why we have mods and arcanes to balance that. This could be why I am not seeing the CC frame issue as an issue. I hate the low shield gating method, so I build every frame to at least have high health and at least 1500 armor (arcane guardian's 900 armor is added to get there for some frames) so they can take some hits and allow mods like Adaptation and Shock Absorbers to get me to a comfortable, consistent level of defense. Maybe I'm in the minority by doing this, but this keeps frames like Limbo, Nyx, Yareli and Volt in a tanky enough spot for me to have a lot more fun with my full arsenal. 

Sure I can slap armor shards, health and armor mods/arcanes, adaptation, and DR helminth on any frame and build them as a tank but at that point why not just pick a frame that is designed to tank. I'd rather build towards a frames strengths and not gimp their kit by building to make up for their deficiencies.

I've also always hated playing tanks in every game. I get bored quickly straight face tanking. I like crowd control and glass cannon casters, I find it a more engaging experience when everything poses a threat until I deal with the situation.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

40 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Sure I can slap armor shards, health and armor mods/arcanes, adaptation, and DR helminth on any frame and build them as a tank but at that point why not just pick a frame that is designed to tank. I'd rather build towards a frames strengths and not gimp their kit by building to make up for their deficiencies.

I've also always hated playing tanks in every game. I get bored quickly straight face tanking. I like crowd control and glass cannon casters, I find it a more engaging experience when everything poses a threat until I deal with the situation.

I gotcha...but do you think our two choices of frame building define the challenge of the eximus units instead of their lack of CC susceptibility?

A glass cannon build always come with greater risk and make even a more basic unit seem more threatening. Meanwhile, I begin to sweat much later in the game where perhaps greater ability duration or range would come more in handy, but the frames can still take hits before I have to go into recovery.

Often, I tend to already have a class of weapons that supplements a particular frame's abilities and features, so I go a little hard when balancing the kit. Frames like an Ember, Frost or Nidus, for example, get types like the Parasitic bow, Incarnon Atomos, Incarnon Sancti Magistar and a Moa to help keep enemies close while creating faster opportunities to do finishers. Meanwhile, a Limbo or Nyx type would get more like the Trumna, a beam secondary like the Synoid Gammacor, glaives and a robo doggo, of which all are VERY good at clearing eximus, Acolytes and mobs nearly instantly but also spreads some aggro via a bit of radiation and the robo doggo's separation precept (forgot the name).

So basically, one style likes to keep enemies close while the other accounts for the lower eHP of some frames and has an arsenal that can keep enemies occupied or at a distance, in case I need to recover.  

[Berzerkules]

55 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I gotcha...but do you think our two choices of frame building define the challenge of the eximus units instead of their lack of CC susceptibility?

A glass cannon build always come with greater risk and make even a more basic unit seem more threatening. Meanwhile, I begin to sweat much later in the game where perhaps greater ability duration or range would come more in handy, but the frames can still take hits before I have to go into recovery.

Often, I tend to already have a class of weapons that supplements a particular frame's abilities and features, so I go a little hard when balancing the kit. Frames like an Ember, Frost or Nidus, for example, get types like the Parasitic bow, Incarnon Atomos, Incarnon Sancti Magistar and a Moa to help keep enemies close while creating faster opportunities to do finishers. Meanwhile, a Limbo or Nyx type would get more like the Trumna, a beam secondary like the Synoid Gammacor, glaives and a robo doggo, of which all are VERY good at clearing eximus, Acolytes and mobs nearly instantly but also spreads some aggro via a bit of radiation and the robo doggo's separation precept (forgot the name).

So basically, one style likes to keep enemies close while the other accounts for the lower eHP of some frames and has an arsenal that can keep enemies occupied or at a distance, in case I need to recover.  

IF we aren't talking endurance and just basic SP stuff I think building to tank or having DR as part of a frames kit definitely reduces the threat of eximus units. Every eximus isn't an immediate threat if you can take sustained hits for a brief period. 

Like I've been enjoying Citrine lately for her status chance/duration buff and free priming but she also has a 90% DR ability in her kit. Using rakta dark dagger on her I can basically shield tank to about lvl 400 before my shields start getting one tapped. Without that consistent 90% DR she would be like every other shield gate build and have shields one tapped from the start of a SP mission. 

[Aruquae]

16 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Wait what?

No no, keep on cooking

I want to see where this is going 

 

15 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Maybe I'm in the minority by doing this, but this keeps frames like Limbo, Nyx, Yareli and Volt in a tanky enough spot for me to have a lot more fun with my full arsenal. 

I too do something like this, but I believe we are the minority 

Worth to note that this post isn’t about wanting to change overguard to make it easier for CC frames, it’s about changing Eximus overguard to make them immune to damage abilities. If there’s one thing the devs try to stop constantly, it’s AOE, and Eximus units completely trivialize (just by themselves) the only thing that was was worth considering against AOE (frame wise, not weapon wise). 
 

12 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

A glass cannon build always come with greater risk and make even a more basic unit seem more threatening. Meanwhile, I begin to sweat much later in the game where perhaps greater ability duration or range would come more in handy, but the frames can still take hits before I have to go into recovery.

 

Only thing is, with a good glass cannon build (such as Banshee and Limbo), you would have a greater risk, yes, but you would at least have been able to deal with it. And no, I’m not referring to normal Star chart. I’m bringing up things such as SP endurance (and by that I just mean 10 min or longer) where you start to notice more Eximus. 
Of course my little rant on CC being completely useless against Eximus is beside the point. 
So, to ask the question… would you be fine with Eximus units being immune to damage abilities? Why, or why not 

[_GoodLuck_]

They should remove overguard completely from enemies. I know the purpose of the Eximus units - DE try to remove AFK players or keybinders from the game, but didn't respect other active players.

My hard opinion: Eximus' should cease to exist. They should be replaced with something like Acolytes, without overguard.

EDIT: And honestly, I see more Eximus units than regular ones in high level content.

Edited April 8 by _GoodLuck_

[WindShadow970]

On 2024-04-06 at 8:15 PM, Xzorn said:

HP/Shield scaling and Weak Points for instance.

They have had some successes here: Nox, Deimos Saxum, I'm 50/50 on Bursas, recently Severed Wardens.

There've been stinkers too though: PoE Thumpers, Orb Vallis Kyta Raknoids, Aerolysts, Deimos release Necramechs, recently Hollow Veins (may as well not have a weak spot).

I prefer all of the above to Overguard, I found myself being really annoyed doing an Interception recently...y'know one mission type where CC is viable, I leave some Yareli bubbles at a point to deal with business elsewhere and as soon as I leave its being captured by you guessed it an Eximus.