Taking ARCHON SHARD off should be free by now!

[PublikDomain]

4 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

This is a very late game, very powerful system, and you want us to be able to be to adjust it without any payback or consideration of consequences whatsoever?

"And you want us to be able to experiment with the game's massive amount of customization without having to pay a fee every time you want to try something different?"

Yes, lol. Experimentation should never be discouraged. Adding a fee discourages experimentation.

Do you need to pay a fee to unequip mods? Nope.

Do you need to pay a fee to reorder mod slot polarities? Nope.

Do you need to pay a fee to swap Arcanes? Nope.

Do you need to pay a fee to remove Helminth ability Infusions? Nope.

So why should you need to pay a fee to swap Shards?

[0_The_F00l]

I don't particularly care either way.

I don't switch out shards that often , and i tend to plan ahead for new releases making sure I have some resources stacked up if needed.

Many of my frames don't even use shards , mostly cause I find them not necessary on those frames as they are already pretty well built and a few I don't play that often.

[RichardKam]

1小时前 , PublikDomain 说:

"And you want us to be able to experiment with the game's massive amount of customization without having to pay a fee every time you want to try something different?"

Yes, lol. Experimentation should never be discouraged. Adding a fee discourages experimentation.

Do you need to pay a fee to unequip mods? Nope.

Do you need to pay a fee to reorder mod slot polarities? Nope.

Do you need to pay a fee to swap Arcanes? Nope.

Do you need to pay a fee to remove Helminth ability Infusions? Nope.

So why should you need to pay a fee to swap Shards?

Because archon shard is not mod or arcane dude.

As for helminth, this is a silly comparison because you've already paid a fee when infusing a helminth ability - some of which were more expensive than 30% bile.

[pinkxblack]

19 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

This is a very late game, very powerful system, and you want us to be able to be to adjust it without any payback or consideration of consequences whatsoever? That is far more unreasonable than what DE is using as an impulse throttle. Control your moves a bit more until you gain more shards and know EXACTLY what you want or need on the frame. 

And please stop saying things like "punished". That's ridiculous.

you dont even read what i said dont you??? if you are another freaking white knight dont talk to me, thanks!

 

19 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

But he's right. Because old accounts don't care. but new people need these resources for construction. Therefore the whole thing is very unfair to new people.

no its the opposite! new players who joined after combined system came out then they know there are 6 type of stones and TAU upgrader, not like old players me/us put a lot of regular red/blue/yellow stones on frames already, they have more choices than i have.

if i wanna do the same thing i have to pay AGAIN!

 

if DE were smart enough they better took off all stones from frames automatically when the new combined system appeared just like the old FOCUS system changed, but they are not that wise so here we are talking about it.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, pinkxblack said:

you dont even read what i said dont you??? if you are another freaking white knight dont talk to me, thanks!

Here's this white knight crap. I could care less. I stand by what I said. Further, the regular shards are still excellent additions to your set-up so why should they just simply be freely moveable without some sort of throttle? 

Alright, here's another reason why DE shouldn't do it: The next set of player "QoL" requests, regarding shards, would make shard acquisition pointless. You don't think someone is going to start asking about why they can't auto swap, auto equip, auto fuse shards before missions, and why they are being "punished" because they always have to go to Helminth to take shards out and put on another frame? 

People don't stop trying to do less like this. DE needs to balance that while also generating some sort of revenue in the process 

 

[pinkxblack]

20分钟前 , (PSN)GEN-Son_17 说:

Here's this white knight crap. I could care less. I stand by what I said. Further, the regular shards are still excellent additions to your set-up so why should they just simply be freely moveable without some sort of throttle? 

Alright, here's another reason why DE shouldn't do it: The next set of player "QoL" requests, regarding shards, would make shard acquisition pointless. You don't think someone is going to start asking about why they can't auto swap, auto equip, auto fuse shards before missions, and why they are being "punished" because they always have to go to Helminth to take shards out and put on another frame? 

People don't stop trying to do less like this. DE needs to balance that while also generating some sort of revenue in the process 

i didnt say anything about swapping ok... so tell me why cant they do the same as FOCUS changing, then everybody happy! if you stay the same set put them on again, if you wanna upgrade or mixup go grinding STELAS.

not every cost in this game are justified as you think, the situation right now is far away from balance.

[johnno23]

Shards were a new shiny and I jumped onto the bandwagon to get them. I soon gave up as I personally am not a fan of the Kahl missions. Did a few runs got a couple of shards but then stopped. I ran the netra cells and got a few but also did my weekly archon hunt. Having decided grinding shards was simply too much effort when compared to zipping around and just having some fun I basically stopped actively trying to get them. Several weeks passed and my favorite 2 frames were pretty much built as I wanted. At present I have a smattering of diverse regular and tau shards and maybe 5 frames outside of my 2 main ones that have some shards. I still do not actively seek them out but do enjoy a couple of netracell runs and like my weekly archon hunt. Basically over time they just keep adding up. With the issue of Bile I suppose I am fortunate in that I have not really noticed any negative impact as I have over time accrued so many resources it does not force me to go farming for something. 

My only take away from the game is patience. its like fishing for trout. I can spend a whole day fishing rivers and streams and maybe catch one or two but I can also go to a trout pond spend money and catch 20 in under an hour.

 

[PollexMessier]

I would have agreed with you before deep archemedia, and bird 3 getting the Kahl shard.

But now shards just get dumped on us pretty easily so I don't think it's that big a deal. What would have taken years before takes months now. Which for a live service game isn't too bad. Legit maxing out every frame in the game with tauforged archon shards is less of a grind now than the eidolan arcanes are minus events.

I do still think kahl's shop shouldn't have had the shard taken from it tho, and just had bird 3 sell an extra shard. cus now there's literally no reason to do kahl runs past getting all the exclusive stuff from the shop. But that's whatever. The time investment in that was never worth it.

Now it's just a matter of knowing what you want on a frame before installing it. And if we're at the point of complaining about that, it's time to start complaining about not being able to retrieve umbra forma again. Which is something else in the game that takes way more time to get, and instead of having a resource cost to take back off, you just can't.

Edited May 6 by PollexMessier

[SneakyErvin]

10 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Because archon shard is not mod or arcane dude.

As for helminth, this is a silly comparison because you've already paid a fee when infusing a helminth ability - some of which were more expensive than 30% bile.

So? Then if you positively want a cost for some reason just make it a 1-time unlock per shard slot per frame. Slotting would still not cost and the slot would be "unlocked" the moment you've spent 30% bile on it. Resulting in you either get it passively as you remove shards or if you opt in to just do it manually by simply unlocking the slots.

While I and @PublikDomaindisagree on a whole #*!% lot of things I 100% agree with him on his view on shard removal.

I got DEs point of having a cost early on, since we were still working towards the "shard power ceiling" by still work on a single frame to cap out. But now when we've capped a large amount, why is there still a cost to limit our power when we are already at the power cap by having enough shards to fully kit out a single frame? Having two frames or more fully kitted out with shards does not further increase our power, so not allowing us to swap freely is utterly pointless.

[PublikDomain]

10 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Because archon shard is not mod or arcane dude.

Arcanes are just mods with a different coat of paint.

Shards are just mods with yet another different coat of paint.

And Arcanes used to have a removal cost just like Shards. Guess why that was removed? 🤔

[Packetdancer]

23 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

From a game design standpoint, there needs to be some cost to moving Shards; if there's not, then players would be incentivized to just get 5 of each shard and then move them around to whatever frame they are currently playing; this would in effect make Shards into a more cumbersome mod system.

Not to mention the fact that on a more general level, in any game design, you almost certainly have resource faucets -- currency and resources are created out of thin air as-needed with no limits on how many can be in circulation -- so you eventually need drains on resources or else your in-game economy spins entirely out of control.

(I mean, your in-game economy probably eventually spins out of control regardless, because gamers, but you don't have to help it get there faster.)

 

15 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

"And you want us to be able to experiment with the game's massive amount of customization without having to pay a fee every time you want to try something different?"

I think this is a matter which you could argue entirely separately from the resource cost. We have the simulacrum, after all. And I feel as though in the simulacrum you should work with functionally temporary duplicate copies of your stuff, so that there's no need to keep whatever loadout you set up in the Simulacrum aligned with what you can equip in reality; being able to utilize any mod, arcane, frame, or weapon in the simulacrum -- to freely swap on any Helminth'd ability or set up whatever shard combination you want -- would allow for experimentation and testing theories in a cost-free manner.

But shards are different than mods. Mods can be equipped an endless number of times simultaneously, and how you drive continued engagement with that system is by continuously adding new mods to the system. There's not a reasonable way to keep adding new colors of shards, so the way you drive engagement with the archon shard system -- and thus ensuring people continue to do archon hunts, so that there are enough people to matchmake for the folks doing archon hunts -- is by requiring you to have a growing supply of shards.

If we only needed to get like, five tauforged shards of each color and then we could put them on every frame we wanted as many times as we wanted and shift them around without cost, people would stop doing archon hunts. Which would mean for newer players getting to archon hunts and thus starting to amass their first shards, it would be a great deal harder for them to actually matchmake into a group.

Dead content is rough to find a group for, after all; try queuing for Lunaro or a public Frame Fighter match and let me know how long you wait.

Whether or not I like that design, I completely understand where it's coming from on a general game design level.

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, Packetdancer said:

But shards are different than mods. Mods can be equipped an endless number of times simultaneously, and how you drive continued engagement with that system is by continuously adding new mods to the system. There's not a reasonable way to keep adding new colors of shards, so the way you drive engagement with the archon shard system -- and thus ensuring people continue to do archon hunts, so that there are enough people to matchmake for the folks doing archon hunts -- is by requiring you to have a growing supply of shards.

If we only needed to get like, five tauforged shards of each color and then we could put them on every frame we wanted as many times as we wanted and shift them around without cost, people would stop doing archon hunts. Which would mean for newer players getting to archon hunts and thus starting to amass their first shards, it would be a great deal harder for them to actually matchmake into a group.

Dead content is rough to find a group for, after all; try queuing for Lunaro or a public Frame Fighter match and let me know how long you wait.

Whether or not I like that design, I completely understand where it's coming from on a general game design level.

To clarify, I feel that there's a difference between the removal of Shards and the swapping of Shards. A one-time removal fee to get some resources back before upgrading a frame to its Prime is fine and is far more generous than we have in other systems like Potatoes or Forma or adapters. But having this as the only way to change Shards takes a big, steamy dump all over our configs and our build flexibility and our ability to experiment. This part is what is bad and should change for all the same reasons it was changed for things like Arcanes. If it needs a Shard-specific implementation then that's fine. I just want to be able to change my configs again.

If we're being prescriptive, I think that Shards should be installed into a frame's pool and then you should be able to equip any combination of Shards out of that pool for free directly from the config screen. Stick it right next to Arcanes and let it work with configs. Pulling Shards out of the pool to put on other frames can then be what costs resources, resources which shouldn't always be Bile.

Regarding content death, well, there's another type of content death that occurs when content is so onerous and annoying that people choose to stop engaging with it once they have their minimum. I've got all 15 of the Taus I need for the three frames I regularly play. I already have no incentive to ever get more, because it's not like I'm ever going to be changing them out when I have to pay every time I do. I haven't run an Archon Hunt in months, I hadn't run a Kahl mission for months prior to that, and I've never bought a Shard from Bird. The only place I'm still getting them is from the EDA, and I'm not playing EDA for the Shards. Shards are already a dead reward.

[Packetdancer]

1 minute ago, PublikDomain said:

If we're being prescriptive, I think that Shards should be installed into a frame's pool and then you should be able to equip any combination of Shards out of that pool for free directly from the config screen. Stick it right next to Arcanes and let it work with configs. Pulling Shards out of the pool to put on other frames can then be what costs resources, resources which shouldn't always be Bile.

I could see that potentially being a worthwhile addition; you could then have like... seven different shards on a frame, with five specific ones of those seven on Config A and a different combination of five on Config B. That gives flexibility without making the system wholly exploitable.

(Though I would not be shocked if there's some limitation behind the scenes which makes that difficult, simply because games of any significant age become held together with bubblegum, duct tape, and hope after a certain point...)

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

3 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

To clarify, I feel that there's a difference between the removal of Shards and the swapping of Shards. A one-time removal fee to get some resources back before upgrading a frame to its Prime is fine and is far more generous than we have in other systems like Potatoes or Forma or adapters. But having this as the only way to change Shards takes a big, steamy dump all over our configs and our build flexibility and our ability to experiment. This part is what is bad and should change for all the same reasons it was changed for things like Arcanes. If it needs a Shard-specific implementation then that's fine. I just want to be able to change my configs again.

If we're being prescriptive, I think that Shards should be installed into a frame's pool and then you should be able to equip any combination of Shards out of that pool for free directly from the config screen. Stick it right next to Arcanes and let it work with configs. Pulling Shards out of the pool to put on other frames can then be what costs resources, resources which shouldn't always be Bile.

Regarding content death, well, there's another type of content death that occurs when content is so onerous and annoying that people choose to stop engaging with it once they have their minimum. I've got all 15 of the Taus I need for the three frames I regularly play. I already have no incentive to ever get more, because it's not like I'm ever going to be changing them out when I have to pay every time I do. I haven't run an Archon Hunt in months, I hadn't run a Kahl mission for months prior to that, and I've never bought a Shard from Bird. The only place I'm still getting them is from the EDA, and I'm not playing EDA for the Shards. Shards are already a dead reward.

Look, even if that's too much for whatever reason, can we at least gain the ability to rearrange the Shards in any order we like for fashion purposes?

Can we at least gain the ability to swap the passive effect on a shard we already have equipped without a cost? I wouldn't be so annoyed and may actually want to experiment if I could possibly switch which effects I would like instead of being hard-locked with my choice.

I really don't get why people argue this point tooth and nail. Like seriously, do you enjoy throwing resources away just to engage with an upgrade system? The whole point of most of that stuff is it's a one-and-done deal. If I'm paying Bile, I should only ever be paying that cost ONCE. 

[PublikDomain]

18 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

I could see that potentially being a worthwhile addition; you could then have like... seven different shards on a frame, with five specific ones of those seven on Config A and a different combination of five on Config B. That gives flexibility without making the system wholly exploitable.

Right. For a real example, my Yareli looks like this:

You could say that she has a 5-slot pool which has 2 Azures, 1 Amber, and 2 Emeralds.

The two Emeralds add one of each of the Toxin effects for my pure-Toxin Gorgon:

But owo, but what's that? A pure-Cold config?? Even before the upcoming Cold changes??? Can I use that config on my Yareli? Yes - but now 2/5ths of my Shards do #*!%all. So I'm discouraged from using items which make those Shards useless, and encouraged to not change anything on my build. I'm likewise discouraged from trying out a Blast build with the new Blast Shards because if it turns out I don't like it I've had to remove my Emeralds, remove my Topaz, and then add my 2 Emeralds back in where they were.

If my Yareli's pool could be expanded to hold more then I could also add in, say, 2 Crimsons for 7 total. Then in my configs I just click-click-click and I can choose any combination of five:

Config A could have my two Emeralds for my Toxin build, Config B could have two Crimsons for my Cold build. If I decide I want my Config A's Emeralds to both be the healing-on-Toxin effect, I can just select it from my mod screen instead of having to trek down to Helminth. Edit: I could even swap my colors around to optimize my Fashionframe like @(XBOX)Graysmog mentions.

And then if I decide I'm not using the Crimsons enough or I want to pull them to fuse I can pay the fee to remove them from my Yareli's pool entirely, and when it's time for Yareli Prime to come out I can maybe pay a lump fee to just clear out the whole pool at once.

Edited May 6 by PublikDomain

[pinkxblack]

  

13小时前 , PublikDomain 说:

And Arcanes used to have a removal cost just like Shards. Guess why that was removed? 🤔

only hope that they wake the hell up at some point, and not being a giant deck no more...

Edited May 7 by pinkxblack

[pinkxblack]

10小时前 , (XBOX)Graysmog 说:

I really don't get why people argue this point tooth and nail. Like seriously, do you enjoy throwing resources away just to engage with an upgrade system? The whole point of most of that stuff is it's a one-and-done deal. If I'm paying Bile, I should only ever be paying that cost ONCE. 

damn right! im really stucked on this stupid BILE thing because of a unthoughtful design.

[johnno23]

On 2024-05-06 at 10:38 AM, PublikDomain said:

So why should you need to pay a fee to swap Shards?

Having read all the posts I feel obliged to agree. I do so as I have no issues making said payment as after 7 years and over 10,000 hours I can afford it. BUT any players that are recently at a level where it is possible to experiment with shards they have a HUGE disadvantage with the system as it stands right now. I am not forced to go farm items but many other players are. I have to assume that players with over 5000 in games hours are not uncommon but they are certainly not in the majority where this payment penalty does indeed limit their ability to experiment.

[Drachnyn]

vor 57 Minuten schrieb johnno23:

Having read all the posts I feel obliged to agree. I do so as I have no issues making said payment as after 7 years and over 10,000 hours I can afford it. BUT any players that are recently at a level where it is possible to experiment with shards they have a HUGE disadvantage with the system as it stands right now. I am not forced to go farm items but many other players are. I have to assume that players with over 5000 in games hours are not uncommon but they are certainly not in the majority where this payment penalty does indeed limit their ability to experiment.

I can easily afford it if i'm not wasteful to an extreme degree but I still find it annoying personally. To change several shards at once you always have to quit out of the shards menu, open the feeding tab, throw in a bunch of garbage, hit esc because that's what gave you the prompt previously, feed it all again and then go back to the shards menu. Genuinely annoying for 0 purpose. After years of using helminth very liberally I have spent maybe half an hour actively farming for resources specifically for helminth in the form of thermal sludge.

[PublikDomain]

5 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

To change several shards at once you always have to quit out of the shards menu, open the feeding tab, throw in a bunch of garbage, hit esc because that's what gave you the prompt previously, feed it all again and then go back to the shards menu.

And then hit ESC one too many times and accidentally stand up and then have to sit back down and go back into the menu. Gosh, that menu is such a pain.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb johnno23:

Having read all the posts I feel obliged to agree. I do so as I have no issues making said payment as after 7 years and over 10,000 hours I can afford it. BUT any players that are recently at a level where it is possible to experiment with shards they have a HUGE disadvantage with the system as it stands right now. I am not forced to go farm items but many other players are. I have to assume that players with over 5000 in games hours are not uncommon but they are certainly not in the majority where this payment penalty does indeed limit their ability to experiment.

It's good that someone is still thinking about new players.

[Joylesstuna]

On 2024-05-05 at 4:19 PM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

This is a very late game, very powerful system, and you want us to be able to be to adjust it without any payback or consideration of consequences whatsoever? That is far more unreasonable than what DE is using as an impulse throttle. Control your moves a bit more until you gain more shards and know EXACTLY what you want or need on the frame. 

And please stop saying things like "punished". That's ridiculous.

The cost is already having to get the item in the first place by playing late game game modes. Arcanes can be swapped without any cost. Your reasoning does not make sense.

For a game that is constantly buffing and nerfing builds, including an upcoming elemental rework, the costs just don't make sense.

Edited May 7 by Joylesstuna

[Kaiga]

On 2024-05-05 at 7:40 PM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Here's this white knight crap. I could care less. I stand by what I said. Further, the regular shards are still excellent additions to your set-up so why should they just simply be freely moveable without some sort of throttle? 

Alright, here's another reason why DE shouldn't do it: The next set of player "QoL" requests, regarding shards, would make shard acquisition pointless. You don't think someone is going to start asking about why they can't auto swap, auto equip, auto fuse shards before missions, and why they are being "punished" because they always have to go to Helminth to take shards out and put on another frame? 

People don't stop trying to do less like this. DE needs to balance that while also generating some sort of revenue in the process 

 

You not so cleverly projected that you're white knighting DE here.

The entire game works around a principle of cost-to-make or acquire vs cost-to-use, we don't get taxed credits for removing mods or arcanes or for swapping forma or weapons, this is the only system that requires the most limited helminth resource to do so.

Your point doesn't even make any sense. You can't pay platinum or money to skip the removal costs or refill bile, this particular system is just a stumbling block for players, it doesn't make any revenue at all.

Edited May 7 by Kaiga

[stormy505]

On 2024-05-05 at 7:39 AM, CephalonOlphus said:

Give me any example where these benefits aren't possible with mods first. Like i said shards are there to FINISH builds, rarely do they create them.

I don't think I'd touch Frost, Nuke Mirage, Nekros SoS, Trinity, Garuda cause of their base lengthy animations (cause they're all extremely greedy on mod space already for natural talent) And Frost's base stats means he's SOOOOO reliant on shards for max energy, cast speed, tiny bit of str depending on if you slot molt aug or not.

Like, I usually tell new players not touch 4/5 of the above frames unless they really like them cause without a cast speed shard, or multiple, cause they're so clunky at base. And slotting natural talent usually means you can't fit in more important stats.

It's not like Khora where you just really, really, really want red shards. I think the above are just so bad without shards.

[CephalonOlphus]

6 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

I don't think I'd touch Frost, Nuke Mirage, Nekros SoS, Trinity, Garuda cause of their base lengthy animations (cause they're all extremely greedy on mod space already for natural talent) And Frost's base stats means he's SOOOOO reliant on shards for max energy, cast speed, tiny bit of str depending on if you slot molt aug or not.

Like, I usually tell new players not touch 4/5 of the above frames unless they really like them cause without a cast speed shard, or multiple, cause they're so clunky at base. And slotting natural talent usually means you can't fit in more important stats.

It's not like Khora where you just really, really, really want red shards. I think the above are just so bad without shards.

Cast speed is a QoL not a necessity for a build to function. most builds can swap out a mod to account for problems too. like swapping out augur message for flow/primed flow won't kill the build if it's that much of a problem for you.

Again shards are there to finish/complement builds. everything you mentioned works before shards, the shards let you maximize it.

Telling people not to play frames because YOU don't like how they play without shards is also not a good mindset to give to newer players.