Player to player messages/Auction House

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb yoritomosomori:

I'd be quite happy to trade, if there was an asynchronous system to do it. Doesn't have to be an auction house - offline mail with plat-on-delivery options would be just fine from a user perspective.

How easy that would be to manage in the database as it is? No idea...

should be easy. I have worked with SQL databases and scripts for a very long time.
They are definitely pursuing different goals here. So it's more about online player statistics. therefore also about time spent online in the game.

and! Don't forget the competition. If it were to go offline, that would mean that the prices would drop significantly. because there are too many offers. but that would also decrease platinum sales for real life cash..... so we recognized the problem!

[yoritomosomori]

Just now, Venus-Venera said:

9 minutes ago, yoritomosomori said:

 

should be easy. I have worked with SQL databases and scripts for a very long time.
They are definitely pursuing different goals here. So it's more about online player statistics. therefore also about time spent online in the game.

and! Don't forget the competition. If it were to go offline, that would mean that the prices would

Same here. Doing it new? Dead easy... Fitting it in the existing code and architecture? That depends a lot on how it already works. Accidentally turning a seek into a table scan by getting your indexing wrong can ruin a lot of days...

Agreed that an auction house would likely reduce a lot of friction and cause a major price drop. I see allowing offline mail instead of forcing people to be online simultaneously as different in scale. It reduces some friction, but is still a manual one-by-one process requiring third-party sites for listing. I can see mail having a downward impact on plat prices, but also an upward impact on trading volume - so total market value goes up, which means there's more of a need for new plat.

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb yoritomosomori:

Same here. Doing it new? Dead easy... Fitting it in the existing code and architecture? That depends a lot on how it already works. Accidentally turning a seek into a table scan by getting your indexing wrong can ruin a lot of days...

Agreed that an auction house would likely reduce a lot of friction and cause a major price drop. I see allowing offline mail instead of forcing people to be online simultaneously as different in scale. It reduces some friction, but is still a manual one-by-one process requiring third-party sites for listing. I can see mail having a downward impact on plat prices, but also an upward impact on trading volume - so total market value goes up, which means there's more of a need for new plat.

true. If you don't just accept everything naively and think often, then you quickly come across things that a normal person would never notice.
And I've thought about this topic before too. Because Tencent not only bought Warframe but also Poe (GGG company). There is an official website for trading there. and trading is only possible if you are online and not AFK! and the usual with group invite and exchange window.
So again it's about absurd behavior that isn't actually needed. Even very old games like wow have shown that an action house is very convenient.

[Chewarette]

10 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

should be easy. I have worked with SQL databases and scripts for a very long time.
They are definitely pursuing different goals here. So it's more about online player statistics. therefore also about time spent online in the game.

and! Don't forget the competition. If it were to go offline, that would mean that the prices would drop significantly. because there are too many offers. but that would also decrease platinum sales for real life cash..... so we recognized the problem!

It could be alleviated by having a platinum tax in the auction house. Sell something for 20 plats, the system takes 2. It would act as a "platinum sink" that would be beneficient to DE as well (because the current overflow of platinum being in circulation means fewer people "need" to buy platinum for money).

[Venus-Venera]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Chewarette:

It could be alleviated by having a platinum tax in the auction house. Sell something for 20 plats, the system takes 2. It would act as a "platinum sink" that would be beneficient to DE as well (because the current overflow of platinum being in circulation means fewer people "need" to buy platinum for money).

probably still wouldn't be enough. because there is simply too much competition. and others often undercut too much because they simply don't want to/can't wait.
and then we have the following situation:
Khora prime set costs 20p or much less instead of 55p.
BUT! normal khora costs 325p in the shop. and can hardly be farmed.

So all the stuff from the shop can't be sold at all, because with such a price difference every new player gets an extremely confused look on their face.
and there will also be significantly fewer platinum purchases. because you can buy top prime items for very little platinum.

[PublikDomain]

4 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

and then we have the following situation:
Khora prime set costs 20p or much less instead of 55p.
BUT! normal khora costs 325p in the shop. and can hardly be farmed.

So all the stuff from the shop can't be sold at all, because with such a price difference every new player gets an extremely confused look on their face.
and there will also be significantly fewer platinum purchases. because you can buy top prime items for very little platinum.

But we already have this situation? Khora Prime is ~60p right now, regular Khora is 325p. The price difference is already ~265p, why would another 40p make a difference? Heck, even on day 1 Protea Prime started on the market at ~200p - less than regular Protea on the market. It's always been this way: players have never valued things the same way as DE.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

23 hours ago, Chewarette said:

It could be alleviated by having a platinum tax in the auction house. Sell something for 20 plats, the system takes 2. It would act as a "platinum sink" that would be beneficient to DE as well (because the current overflow of platinum being in circulation means fewer people "need" to buy platinum for money).

No. 

Lets start with the fact that wouldnt solve the underlying problems:

1) the "supply and demand" aspect of trading would still be massively skewed towards the supply side. 

2) it would be *harder* to earn plat without paying for it. 

also its bad enough i have money taken out of my paycheck and then out of what uncle sam lets me keep it i wanna buy something (like prime access) i gotta pay sales tax on the transaction using money that already got taxed and now it i wanna spend my funbucks you want to tax that too to try and solve a completely unnecessary artificial problem that doesnt need to exist? Hard pass.

19 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

probably still wouldn't be enough. because there is simply too much competition. and others often undercut too much because they simply don't want to/can't wait.
and then we have the following situation:
Khora prime set costs 20p or much less instead of 55p.
BUT! normal khora costs 325p in the shop. and can hardly be farmed.

So all the stuff from the shop can't be sold at all, because with such a price difference every new player gets an extremely confused look on their face.
and there will also be significantly fewer platinum purchases. because you can buy top prime items for very little platinum.

I dont know if there would be fewer plat purchases but i do know it would be a lot harder for players to "farm" platinum through trades if all someone else has to do to prevent them from making a sale is undercut them by 1p, and they suddenly dont even have to bother to be online or watch trade chat to do it.

 

15 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

But we already have this situation? Khora Prime is ~60p right now, regular Khora is 325p. The price difference is already ~265p, why would another 40p make a difference? Heck, even on day 1 Protea Prime started on the market at ~200p - less than regular Protea on the market. It's always been this way: players have never valued things the same way as DE.

>free to play game.

>platinum is the premium currency.

>unlike most free to play games premium currency can be traded for.

The fact that premium currency can be "farmed" in this game is kind of a big deal. Most games arent that generous. Usually if something costs premium currency you can either cough up real cash or not have the thing.

 

The only thing kind of sorta propping up prices right now is that trading is somewhat inconvenient. You either have to make an external account and interact with wf market or sit there in trade chat. Even if you use wf market you still have to be online to make the trade happen.

 

But whether its "auction house" or "any kind of offline trading whatsoever" as soon as that goes out the window guess what.

 

Every single player and their mother is gonna put every single thing they can up for sale and if you wanna sell something, you arent just gonna be in competition with whomever else is online in tc at that moment youre going to be competing with everyone who has the same item period.

 

It will be *harder*, not easier, to make any significant amount of plat for things like potatoes or slots. 

People like me that either buy access/accessories packs or already know how to make a bunch of plat via rivens are gonna laugh all the way to the bank while free to players or people who dont have that much cash to spend on this game are gonna get screwed

 

And every single time this comes up some people dont wanna hear it because all they can think about is OKAY BUT I CAN MAKE FREE PLAT WITH ZERO EFFORT.

[Chewarette]

55 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

No. 

Lets start with the fact that wouldnt solve the underlying problems:

1) the "supply and demand" aspect of trading would still be massively skewed towards the supply side. 

2) it would be *harder* to earn plat without paying for it. 

The market would evolve, as usual. Prime market would crash, and ? Maybe the Riven / Arcanes / Archon mods / whatever would shine. And then what ? Once everyone has sold their Saryn Prime sets for 2  , the supply would be reduced to 0 and prices will go up again.

Also, in which world is a more stabilized market a problem ? You're saying that it's good for newplayers to see every single item be overpriced just because no one involves with the awful trading system in Warframe ?

I don't know - defending such an archaic system is crazy in my book. Trading is a basic feature in all MMOs, Warframe's is the worst. Relying on a third-party website, then having to direct yourselves to laggy Dojos and going through several loading screens to exchange stuff 1-by-1... I don't know, to each their own.

Edited May 20 by Chewarette

[PublikDomain]

6 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Every single player and their mother is gonna put every single thing they can up for sale and if you wanna sell something, you arent just gonna be in competition with whomever else is online in tc at that moment youre going to be competing with everyone who has the same item period.

There are a lot of people using warframe.market. Right now it's 35 thousand. 28 thousand of those are traders. They show these numbers right on the site. The market already handles a staggering amount of trade and yet the economy's still ticking. Trade chat's population on the other hand can be counted by hand it's so small. People can already do exactly what you're concerned with and the economy's still ticking just like it always has.

Plus, there are easy and obvious ways to curb what you describe. We have daily trade limits already. Attach the daily trade limit to your ingame offers. Solved. Now I can only list a limited number of things for purchase/sale. On the market I can and have listed my entire Prime set inventory, but it doesn't need to be that way ingame if you have a little imagination. It doesn't need fully automated offline trades either, and that wouldn't even be the parity I was describing.

[trst]

8 hours ago, Chewarette said:

The market would evolve, as usual. Prime market would crash, and ? Maybe the Riven / Arcanes / Archon mods / whatever would shine. And then what ? Once everyone has sold their Saryn Prime sets for 2  , the supply would be reduced to 0 and prices will go up again.

Also, in which world is a more stabilized market a problem ? You're saying that it's good for newplayers to see every single item be overpriced just because no one involves with the awful trading system in Warframe ?

I don't know - defending such an archaic system is crazy in my book. Trading is a basic feature in all MMOs, Warframe's is the worst. Relying on a third-party website, then having to direct yourselves to laggy Dojos and going through several loading screens to exchange stuff 1-by-1... I don't know, to each their own.

Once someone has bought a Saryn Prime for 2p they no longer have need for another Saryn Prime. And the community is never going to grow fast enough to keep up with the rate at which players can acquire excess gear. And even if it could grow fast enough to counteract that the number of potential buyers will still drop faster.

New players getting to spend $5 USD worth of platinum on ten different Primes isn't a good thing for new players nor DE. As now you end up with players coming into the game who'll be used to dropping pennies on new gear and won't want to spend hours grinding it out instead. And such an economy makes it harder to farm plat, even if things like Rivens/Arcanes might retain a higher price those are still far harder to farm than Primes, thus those players become forced to spend to get anything off the market. Resulting in players who're less likely to engage in content, "F2P" players who can't get anything off the market without spending dozens of hours grinding per item, and players who're less incentivized to spend money because they have less to actually work on.

And virtually every MMO has systems in place to allow a virtual economy to function. Systems like durability, limited inventory capacity, destructive upgrade systems, gear/resource sinks, or actually rare drops where most players will never see an item drop for themselves. Unless you want systems like this shoved into Warframe an AH type system simply won't work out well. And I don't think anyone wants to have to replace their Primes after their durability runs out or have a risk of losing a weapon entirely when they try to Forma it.

[stormy505]

14 hours ago, Chewarette said:

The market would evolve, as usual. Prime market would crash, and ? Maybe the Riven / Arcanes / Archon mods / whatever would shine. And then what ? Once everyone has sold their Saryn Prime sets for 2  , the supply would be reduced to 0 and prices will go up again.

Primes, arcanes and mods are inelastic goods. The price lowering or increasing doesn't impact demand drastically. The vast, vast majority (99.99999999%) of the player base want 1 of each prime, a select few maybe want 2 for build space, and a very small amount of the player base will buy extra stock to resell at a later date, but the playerbase that actually puts the time to do a market trend analysis on warframe are very, very small.

If you don't know what an inelastic good is, think of food. If food is suddenly cheaper it doesn't change how much food you buy on a weekly basis, if a milk carton is 50's cents, you don't suddenly buy 10 cause they still expire in the same amount of time and you only need so much. Price will have SOME impact, but not nearly enough to counterbalance the INSANE amount of supply an auction house would add to the market.

The supply would 10x and the demand wouldn't change causing prices to hit the floor. I think some prime sets would literally be sold for a single plat.

Like, I have 10 banshee p sets, I've seen players with 100+ sets. The only reason they don't trade is because they find it an inconvenience to use their gaming time to even use WM, if you let them trade while playing, so much inventory gets shoved into the supply side that will grow faster than it gets removed.

 

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-05-18 at 10:07 PM, trst said:

Plus we're talking about 30+ trades per player per day anyways. Just going off Steam Charts (which isn't counting every other platform) if we assume the average MR is 10 and only take the current 24h peak that'd be nearly 620,000 possible trades per day just from the playerbase on Steam. And even considering sets being split into multiple transactions that's still a potential for 155,000 sets to be traded per day.

The market would absolutely be flooded.

Just wanna point out a few thing. 

This number alone, 620,000, is huge and would have a huge impact as you point out, however, it doesnt stop there even since you actually underestimate the numbers. The reason for this is because you forgot to account for the peak showing concurrent players and not a total. So in reality those 62k players would be refreshed and replaced several times over throughout the 24h of a game day (from reset to reset of dailies) based on the avarage playtime of a player.

So lets put this into persepctive while using a few avarage numbers.

I'll just use an avarage steam number of 45,000 players here. Ontop of that lets exaggerate the avarage playtime and set it at 3 hours. In reality the avarage is likely closer to something like 45m-1h per day. So that means we have 45,000 concurrent players that play 3 hours in a sitting. This results in the concurrent number being replaced 8 times across a game day since 24/3 = 8.

So then we have 45,000 x 8, which means we have 360,000 unique active players passing through the game on Steam every single day. Then we multiply this by the avarage trades, which you placed at MR10 or well 10 trades. This means 360,000 x 10 which lands us at 3,600,000 active auctions per day on an AH just from the Steam players.

And since the game has a couple of million unique active players passing through the game per day in total across all platforms we are in reality looking at something like 20,000,000 auctions on a daily basis if an AH would be added. All due to the ease of use that such a system would add. This without account for potential people returning just in order to dump items on the AH "just incase" they get back into the game to play and want a plat buffer obtainable by utilizing only the AH daily.

In the end the people thinking an AH can work in WF are not really realizing why AHs work in other games. Those other games do not have their whole population share a single AH market. Those that do are often in utter and total chaos with horrible economies. Not to mention what can be sold and how the game systems work overall with rarities etc. that allows for certain items to retain high value. Practically everything in WF aside from rivens would be common items, so there would be a massive abundance of them meaning they'd practically have no value if easily traded through an AH.

This is also without considering how DE would handle these absurd amounts of item auctions when the game isnt an MMO. Should we then get dedicated auctioneer servers that we upload the items to? Even though we cannot get dedicated servers to avoid host migrations and S#&$ in regular gameplay? Or should players just be able to list sales and the buyers be required to wait until those players are online again? Those listed items would still need some form of persistant server where people can browse adds etc. aswell as automatically mark things as sold and so on.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

On 2024-05-20 at 9:27 AM, PublikDomain said:

There are a lot of people using warframe.market. Right now it's 35 thousand. 28 thousand of those are traders. They show these numbers right on the site. The market already handles a staggering amount of trade and yet the economy's still ticking. Trade chat's population on the other hand can be counted by hand it's so small. People can already do exactly what you're concerned with and the economy's still ticking just like it always has.

Plus, there are easy and obvious ways to curb what you describe. We have daily trade limits already. Attach the daily trade limit to your ingame offers. Solved. Now I can only list a limited number of things for purchase/sale. On the market I can and have listed my entire Prime set inventory, but it doesn't need to be that way ingame if you have a little imagination. It doesn't need fully automated offline trades either, and that wouldn't even be the parity I was describing.

If youre trying to tell me that since X many people already use wf market, that means "auction house" wouldnt be that different than what we have now, id say thats completely wrong.

 

1) wf market =/= "auction house" and the fact that people calling for auction house *still want auction house* even though we already have wf market should be a clue.

2) its not the same. I can put every random tradeable thing in my inventory up but id still have to actually be online to trade it, and someone else who wants it would have to be online to take it.

3) i dont see trade limits or taxes or anything brought up so far as a slam dunk "solved". 

And i dont think there IS a way to make the auction house advocates happy without crashing it. At the end of the day the only reason anyone would buy a protea prime (or whatever) set from you is because it saves them the time of getting it themselves.

On 2024-05-20 at 3:43 AM, Chewarette said:

The market would evolve, as usual. Prime market would crash, and ? Maybe the Riven / Arcanes / Archon mods / whatever would shine. And then what ? Once everyone has sold their Saryn Prime sets for 2  , the supply would be reduced to 0 and prices will go up again.

Also, in which world is a more stabilized market a problem ? You're saying that it's good for newplayers to see every single item be overpriced just because no one involves with the awful trading system in Warframe ?

I don't know - defending such an archaic system is crazy in my book. Trading is a basic feature in all MMOs, Warframe's is the worst. Relying on a third-party website, then having to direct yourselves to laggy Dojos and going through several loading screens to exchange stuff 1-by-1... I don't know, to each their own.

"The market would evolve". 

"Once everyone has sold their saryn prime sets for 2p the supply would be zero and prices would go up again". 

Once everyone has a sayrn prime set they dont need more. The demand is gone. Thats it. 

"Being able to buy prime sets for 5p" wouldnt be a "problem" for new players right up until they need or want something like skins, color palletes, slots, or potatoes and realize that oh hey, the same amount of time it took to farm a prime and earn yourself a decent amount of plat now gets you 5p. Because youre competing with everyone else to have the same items PERIOD instead of whoever is online actively going out of their way to sell in that moment. 

That sword cuts both ways. If the going rate for a prime set is 5p good luck selling one for more than 5p meanwhile a catalyst is still 20p.

On 2024-05-20 at 12:43 PM, trst said:

Once someone has bought a Saryn Prime for 2p they no longer have need for another Saryn Prime. And the community is never going to grow fast enough to keep up with the rate at which players can acquire excess gear. And even if it could grow fast enough to counteract that the number of potential buyers will still drop faster.

New players getting to spend $5 USD worth of platinum on ten different Primes isn't a good thing for new players nor DE. As now you end up with players coming into the game who'll be used to dropping pennies on new gear and won't want to spend hours grinding it out instead. And such an economy makes it harder to farm plat, even if things like Rivens/Arcanes might retain a higher price those are still far harder to farm than Primes, thus those players become forced to spend to get anything off the market. Resulting in players who're less likely to engage in content, "F2P" players who can't get anything off the market without spending dozens of hours grinding per item, and players who're less incentivized to spend money because they have less to actually work on.

And virtually every MMO has systems in place to allow a virtual economy to function. Systems like durability, limited inventory capacity, destructive upgrade systems, gear/resource sinks, or actually rare drops where most players will never see an item drop for themselves. Unless you want systems like this shoved into Warframe an AH type system simply won't work out well. And I don't think anyone wants to have to replace their Primes after their durability runs out or have a risk of losing a weapon entirely when they try to Forma it.

I dont see it working well unless like you said, theres way more to items than what we have now.

A protea prime set is exactly the same as every other prime set. And its not even that hard to get for free. Even vaulted stuff isnt that hard to get now. 

But. Its like everyone just thinks that they can earn free plat with zero effort if they fart everything in their inventory into an automated trade system and theyre too lazy, entitled, and arrogant to see any downsides.

[0_The_F00l]

I say this almost everytime this comes up ,

There are ways to maintain a regulated market that still makes things convenient for players and also allows DE to have profits.

Firstly , 

Trading between players doesn't generate revenue for DE , only when players buy platinum with real money does it generate direct revenue. 

When you sink platinum into the game (buying forma , cosmetics , slots etc.) you take platinum out of circulation and this results in an incentive for players to buy platinum from DE. Thereby trading can have indirect revenue , if it is associated with a sink of said platinum.

With that out of the way let's look at the various points raised against a better means of trading (call it AH if you want , but I prefer regulated markets) 

1) Players will need to purchase slots for their shop to sell (no , not the ones you get for free when you gain MR) with a cap of say 6 slots with every additional slot costing more platinum.

2) You can only sell items for Plat and minimum entry price is 10p per item when you sell this way. So you can sell max 6 items per day through this method.

3) Once an item is slotted into the market you cannot remove it or change the price for 24 hours, after 24 hours , if item is unsold you can change the price or remove it from the slot.

4) DE gets a cut of the action , say 10% , chargeable to the seller if item is sold. (This is to be made aware to seller or marked up rates are to be displayed on the market) 

5) Items sold do not free slots until 24 hours are up. So you can't just keep rotating the same slot indefinitely.

6) Direct trades still exist as they already do.

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

1) wf market =/= "auction house" and the fact that people calling for auction house *still want auction house* even though we already have wf market should be a clue.

2) its not the same. I can put every random tradeable thing in my inventory up but id still have to actually be online to trade it, and someone else who wants it would have to be online to take it.

3) i dont see trade limits or taxes or anything brought up so far as a slam dunk "solved". 

1. There are more ways to make an "auction house" than whatever one version you're thinking of. For example, expanding the Bazaar to meet parity with warframe.market's existing features, just ingame and tied to existing limitations like daily trades.

2. And this could be preserved. If you can only list as many items as you can daily trades, you can't put every random tradable thing up for sale. And if sales need to be confirmed by the buyer and seller (similar to how they already need to be verified in direct trade) then there would be no instant buyouts and the pace of trade would still be slowed down by that time lag.

3. People other than me have brought up both daily trades and trade taxes in this thread.

3 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

At the end of the day the only reason anyone would buy a protea prime (or whatever) set from you is because it saves them the time of getting it themselves.

And just like I asked Venus, how is that in any way different from what we already have today? This is already the case and has been forever.

[PaladinMaximus1]

On 2024-05-18 at 2:21 AM, Chewarette said:

 

 

You guys are all acting like if there was an Auction House, you could sell your 20x of each Prime Part right away ? If there was an Auction House, you'd be limited by your max trades anyway. So it would still be more interesting to sell on a player-to-player basis (where you can sell 5 items during one trade), rather than going through the Auction House where you'd be limited to MR+1 items per day (edit: or whatever the number of trades is, I'm not doing any due to the awfulness of the current process).

Like if you want to sell the Valkyr Prime Set, it'd be 4 trades.

If implemented like that, the market would not be flooded. It couldn't be.

That's unpractical as #*!%.

- List stuff

- Manually change your availability status

- Wait for people to /w you

- Ok cool, go to dojo [loading screen]

- Invite dude

- Dude goes through loading screen

- Go to trading post (keep in mind some dojos don't have the trading post right away so the guy needs to tell you where to go)

- Do the trade

- Go the Warframe.Market to indicate the thing is sold

Repeat 30 times per day. If you wanna be efficient, you can't even play the game while doing all that. Awesome experience.

The easiest way around selling sets is have a "Sell as Set" option that will automatically post the BP/Neuro/Systems/Chassis as a full set trade.  

A couple people have mentioned the trade cap, easiest way around that is to balance 6x full trade vs individual item trade.  Trade cap 10 = 60 items, so change the trade from 10 sets to 60 individual trade "points".  Players get 60 individual trades, or trade 60 items in 1 trade, increased with MR as normal.

As for the comments about DE (i.e. Reb & Meg) being anti AH, here's a question with no offense ment towards anyone at DE:  Who is the game made for?  The devs or the players?  Yes, it's a "free" game, but wouldn't a more user friendly trade system help retain players?  DE is always talking about the "new player experience", how would a AH not be more user friendly? 

"Market crash":  I highly doubt an AH would crash the market or destroy plat values.  So many people were freaking out about values getting tanked when cross-save was first implemented, but I haven't seen any change in prices.  The only players that got hurt were Switch players, their market got bad but because their plat got segregated

AH vs. Warfrane Market:  Even if an AH is "never" going to happen then at least an in-game system like WFM where players can post WTS/WTB/WTT, shows online/offline and auto updates live with transactions would be amazing.  They could even incentives to being online by have online players always show at top of list/searches.  Not to mention WFM is still separated by their respective platforms, which also segregated player that chose not to set up cross-trade and Aleca only works on PC (unless cross save).

 

These are all just ideas.  I love WF, it's my primary game, but there are a bunch of systems in-game that are clunky and not user friendly

[ECCHOSIERRA]

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

1. There are more ways to make an "auction house" than whatever one version you're thinking of. For example, expanding the Bazaar to meet parity with warframe.market's existing features, just ingame and tied to existing limitations like daily trades.

2. And this could be preserved. If you can only list as many items as you can daily trades, you can't put every random tradable thing up for sale. And if sales need to be confirmed by the buyer and seller (similar to how they already need to be verified in direct trade) then there would be no instant buyouts and the pace of trade would still be slowed down by that time lag.

3. People other than me have brought up both daily trades and trade taxes in this thread.

And just like I asked Venus, how is that in any way different from what we already have today? This is already the case and has been forever.

We can all sit here and speculate about hypothetical features that people might think would stop an "auction house" from breaking the game but fundamentally its just copium.

Asking for tradeable items to be oh-so-much-easier to sell is going to reduce the value of those items in the same way that "lets just give everyone free money" would make money worth less.

But what about taxes, what about limiting the number of trades, what about this, what about that, what about if we all grab a handful of beans and clap.

Honestly im about at the point where im tempted to start hoping DE does create an auction house just out of spite. 

Anything that makes it easier to sell items, for you, makes it easier to sell the same items for *everyone else*.

All these "solutions" being proposed are just variables in a math equation

What is supply and demand. What happens when you take a demand/supply equation and put a big ol fat brick on the supply side of the scale?

All you guys are doing is debating what the hypothetical weight of the brick should be.

Every time this bad idea comes up people always wanna argue about it like children arguing in favor of how much candy they should get. "Okay but maybe if i just get HALF a pound of skittles".

1) bazaar? "Parity"? Pfft come on dude. This always about people wanting to be able to make a list of items for sale and either be completely offline or at least semi afk while plat magically shows up in their inventory. If that isnt whats being asked for here what the hell do you want?

2) "you can only list as many items as daily trades". I can do what, 30 or however many it is trades per day? Thats a pretty heavy brick. Yeah, most players arent LR1 even most players in the MR10-20 range arent generally maxing out daily trades from what i've seen. 

3) "how is it different". 

If the proposed system isnt different from what we have now then why do we need a new system? Oh right because people are lazy. Yeah. I read the proposals. I dont think they're good ideas. 

The only way i can see an "auction house" kind of sort of working is if items were either much more unique then what we have now, MUCH, MUCH harder to farm, or both.

 

19 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I say this almost everytime this comes up ,

There are ways to maintain a regulated market that still makes things convenient for players and also allows DE to have profits.

Firstly , 

Trading between players doesn't generate revenue for DE , only when players buy platinum with real money does it generate direct revenue. 

When you sink platinum into the game (buying forma , cosmetics , slots etc.) you take platinum out of circulation and this results in an incentive for players to buy platinum from DE. Thereby trading can have indirect revenue , if it is associated with a sink of said platinum.

With that out of the way let's look at the various points raised against a better means of trading (call it AH if you want , but I prefer regulated markets) 

1) Players will need to purchase slots for their shop to sell (no , not the ones you get for free when you gain MR) with a cap of say 6 slots with every additional slot costing more platinum.

2) You can only sell items for Plat and minimum entry price is 10p per item when you sell this way. So you can sell max 6 items per day through this method.

3) Once an item is slotted into the market you cannot remove it or change the price for 24 hours, after 24 hours , if item is unsold you can change the price or remove it from the slot.

4) DE gets a cut of the action , say 10% , chargeable to the seller if item is sold. (This is to be made aware to seller or marked up rates are to be displayed on the market) 

5) Items sold do not free slots until 24 hours are up. So you can't just keep rotating the same slot indefinitely.

6) Direct trades still exist as they already do.

trading platinum between players might not directly be a cash-injected-into-DE's-bank-account-with-a-giant-turkey-baster scenario but lets not pretend people dont buy plat specifically to trade with. 

Back to the brick analogy. This is a perfect example of what im talking about. "How big of a brick are we gonna put on the supply side of the scale".

1) the race to the bottom problem would still exist.

2) that would be a good way to end up with a ton of listings, going unsold, for 10 plat. See normally the way supply and demand works is if theres an abundance of supply prices go down because if they dont, sellers end up not selling. So now we have a situation where theres a race to the almost bottom and probably just not selling jack. 

Oh look i just logged in for the day and see that while i was a sleep last night my (whatever) didnt sell for 10p in the ocean of identical parts for 10p.

3) i dont see why this matters. At all.

4) considering most people seem willing to haggle ~10% anyway in this game i think the majority of people would just take the hit and the flooded market race to the bottom problem would still exist but on top of that it would feel like an icky cash grab for a lot of people.

5) who cares.

6) and why would anyone bother aside from niche scenarios? 

17 hours ago, PaladinMaximus1 said:

The easiest way around selling sets is have a "Sell as Set" option that will automatically post the BP/Neuro/Systems/Chassis as a full set trade.  

A couple people have mentioned the trade cap, easiest way around that is to balance 6x full trade vs individual item trade.  Trade cap 10 = 60 items, so change the trade from 10 sets to 60 individual trade "points".  Players get 60 individual trades, or trade 60 items in 1 trade, increased with MR as normal.

As for the comments about DE (i.e. Reb & Meg) being anti AH, here's a question with no offense ment towards anyone at DE:  Who is the game made for?  The devs or the players?  Yes, it's a "free" game, but wouldn't a more user friendly trade system help retain players?  DE is always talking about the "new player experience", how would a AH not be more user friendly? 

"Market crash":  I highly doubt an AH would crash the market or destroy plat values.  So many people were freaking out about values getting tanked when cross-save was first implemented, but I haven't seen any change in prices.  The only players that got hurt were Switch players, their market got bad but because their plat got segregated

AH vs. Warfrane Market:  Even if an AH is "never" going to happen then at least an in-game system like WFM where players can post WTS/WTB/WTT, shows online/offline and auto updates live with transactions would be amazing.  They could even incentives to being online by have online players always show at top of list/searches.  Not to mention WFM is still separated by their respective platforms, which also segregated player that chose not to set up cross-trade and Aleca only works on PC (unless cross save).

 

These are all just ideas.  I love WF, it's my primary game, but there are a bunch of systems in-game that are clunky and not user friendly

Lol if you haven't seen prices change since the merge you haven't been paying attention. 

That didn't "crash", though, because you have all the supply and all the demand from all platforms just shoved into the same pool. PC pricing has generally taken over. 

If you wanna make the "the game is made for players not the devs" argument thats exactly why they should NOT do an auction house.

"Market crash" is in unavoidable mathematical certainty if auction house is implemented. Period. 

If I go into trade chat, right now, and type "want to buy (whatever) prime" you know who's gonna message me?

Whoever has that item, is online, is watching trade chat, and takes the time to message me. 

You know who's filtered out? Anyone who happens to be at work. Anyone who happens to be asleep. Anyone who happens to be offline. Anyone who's at Costco eating a hotdog.

But if we make it so you can either run trades while offline completely or while youre just afk in your orbiter or maroos bazarr guess what. More competition.

Oh sorry pal, mister Costco hotdog offered me the same identical item for 1p less so i went with him.

 

[yoritomosomori]

25 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Anything that makes it easier to sell items, for you, makes it easier to sell the same items for *everyone else*.

I'm thinking about this from the perspective of somebody who wanted to buy, and still has a few things to buy - and if p2p messages with plat on delivery made it easier for me to buy, then it would make it easier for everyone to buy.

You know what, there might be a better solution. Rather than an auction house, what about having a buy order system instead of sell orders? Put the brick on the demand side instead.

[C11H22O1]

18 hours ago, PaladinMaximus1 said:

The devs or the players?  Yes, it's a "free" game, but wouldn't a more user friendly trade system help retain players?  DE is always talking about the "new player experience", how would a AH not be more user friendly?

I don't think AH would be friendly for new players, don't deny that prices would tank when everyone gets easy access to trading and new players barely have items that people want to buy.

Something else that is important to remember is that the prices on the market don't change, if you want to buy a frame, skin, slots or boosters you're gonna have to sell more items for those if AH gets implemented

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

trading platinum between players might not directly be a cash-injected-into-DE's-bank-account-with-a-giant-turkey-baster scenario but lets not pretend people dont buy plat specifically to trade with. 

Never said they didn't , my point is that DE is not really incentivised to improve trade if there is no direct means to sink plat. I am not stupid enough to think DE would do this just cause it would be convenient. But if there are very obvious reportable sinks of platinum it's a very good reason to have it in game.

1 hour ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

 Back to the brick analogy. This is a perfect example of what im talking about. "How big of a brick are we gonna put on the supply side of the scale".

Your analogy is as rubbish as your bias.

Supply and demand doesn't stay the same , that's why DE releases new weapons , mods and primes along with prime resurgence . What is worth 100p today as it's new will over time becomes cheaper as more players acquire it and also players will over time lose interest in farming and selling the same stuff resulting in the rates getting higher as the items become rarer again and cheaper ones are bought out. The prices are not static. 

So if you want to actually give proper analogies and examples atleast put some thought into it.

1 hour ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

1) the race to the bottom problem would still exist.

Not what I was trying to accomplish with limited slots that are to be paid for. The slots themselves will be a sink for plat. The race to bottom is handled by other means. 

1 hour ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

 

2) that would be a good way to end up with a ton of listings, going unsold, for 10 plat. See normally the way supply and demand works is if theres an abundance of supply prices go down because if they dont, sellers end up not selling. So now we have a situation where theres a race to the almost bottom and probably just not selling jack. 

Oh look i just logged in for the day and see that while i was a sleep last night my (whatever) didnt sell for 10p in the ocean of identical parts for 10p.

Congratulations you found out my nefarious plot. Yes genius , there would be multiple listings of 10p. As there are already similar ones on warframe market.

Now let me explain the concept of buying low and selling high. All items do have a reasonable price that someone is willing to buy at even though it's mostly handled by players. If something is really worth less than 10p it will not be sold , that is common sense. But if it's actually worth more , traders will buy it out and sell it at a higher price if they can spot it fast enough. Remember , there is no limit on buying , only selling. 

1 hour ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

3) i dont see why this matters. At all.

That's probably cause you are too narrow minded , you need to stop limiting your outlook and consider the bigger picture.

You think time gates don't matter ? Why do you think building things in a foundry takes time. It's to get players to come back to the game Frequently and see what they got.

1 hour ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

4) considering most people seem willing to haggle ~10% anyway in this game i think the majority of people would just take the hit and the flooded market race to the bottom problem would still exist but on top of that it would feel like an icky cash grab for a lot of people.

If they do flood the market and sell at lowest price , that's still 1 p per transaction per day per player that sinks and goes out of circulation. Every time something is traded it reduces the inflation of plat. That's at least 6p more per day than the alternative (considering 6 slots) , 

Feeling that it's an Icky cash grab could indeed be a thing , as are any items in the actual in game market including credit and resource bundles or the means to rush items for Plat.

So let's not pretend there aren't already things that are icky feeling , but it's part and parcel of a f2p game.

Also it's directly counter your point 2 that things will just not be sold. So which is it ? Will things be sold or not ? 

1 hour ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

5) who cares.

Refer my point of time gates as shown in 3 , I could probably bunch them into a single point I guess.

1 hour ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

6) and why would anyone bother aside from niche scenarios? 

Maybe if you paid attention to what I said you could put two and two together , but let me simplify. They would still do regular trades cause.

They are out of slots ,

They don't want to lock their items out for 24 hours ,

They want to sell more than 6 items that day,  

One of the things they want to sell is less than 10p by itself but is part of a set that goes for 100p.

[Psianide73]

44 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Never said they didn't , my point is that DE is not really incentivised to improve trade if there is no direct means to sink plat. I am not stupid enough to think DE would do this just cause it would be convenient. But if there are very obvious reportable sinks of platinum it's a very good reason to have it in game.

Your analogy is as rubbish as your bias.

Supply and demand doesn't stay the same , that's why DE releases new weapons , mods and primes along with prime resurgence . What is worth 100p today as it's new will over time becomes cheaper as more players acquire it and also players will over time lose interest in farming and selling the same stuff resulting in the rates getting higher as the items become rarer again and cheaper ones are bought out. The prices are not static. 

So if you want to actually give proper analogies and examples atleast put some thought into it.

Not what I was trying to accomplish with limited slots that are to be paid for. The slots themselves will be a sink for plat. The race to bottom is handled by other means. 

Congratulations you found out my nefarious plot. Yes genius , there would be multiple listings of 10p. As there are already similar ones on warframe market.

Now let me explain the concept of buying low and selling high. All items do have a reasonable price that someone is willing to buy at even though it's mostly handled by players. If something is really worth less than 10p it will not be sold , that is common sense. But if it's actually worth more , traders will buy it out and sell it at a higher price if they can spot it fast enough. Remember , there is no limit on buying , only selling. 

That's probably cause you are too narrow minded , you need to stop limiting your outlook and consider the bigger picture.

You think time gates don't matter ? Why do you think building things in a foundry takes time. It's to get players to come back to the game Frequently and see what they got.

If they do flood the market and sell at lowest price , that's still 1 p per transaction per day per player that sinks and goes out of circulation. Every time something is traded it reduces the inflation of plat. That's at least 6p more per day than the alternative (considering 6 slots) , 

Feeling that it's an Icky cash grab could indeed be a thing , as are any items in the actual in game market including credit and resource bundles or the means to rush items for Plat.

So let's not pretend there aren't already things that are icky feeling , but it's part and parcel of a f2p game.

Also it's directly counter your point 2 that things will just not be sold. So which is it ? Will things be sold or not ? 

Refer my point of time gates as shown in 3 , I could probably bunch them into a single point I guess.

Maybe if you paid attention to what I said you could put two and two together , but let me simplify. They would still do regular trades cause.

They are out of slots ,

They don't want to lock their items out for 24 hours ,

They want to sell more than 6 items that day,  

One of the things they want to sell is less than 10p by itself but is part of a set that goes for 100p.

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Honestly im about at the point where im tempted to start hoping DE does create an auction house just out of spite. 

3 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Oh right because people are lazy.

Related:

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Your analogy is as rubbish as your bias.

People already use warframe.market to do all the things you're so scared of, and the ingame economy is fine. Prices for frames are stable and there has been no race to 1p despite the market being the primary origin of player-to-player trade.

Where's the race to the bottom? How does this factor into your math equation? Maybe your math equation should be adjusted to face reality... 🙄

And if you're gonna accuse people of being lazy, should I accuse you of being greedy? The only reason y'all want nothing to change is so you can keep buying things for cheap from people who don't know what they've got and sell things back to people who don't know you're ripping them off. You just want to protect your "wtb prime junk 1p"s and keep scalping Rivens. See? I can make accusations too!

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-05-23 at 4:35 PM, PublikDomain said:

People already use warframe.market to do all the things you're so scared of, and the ingame economy is fine. Prices for frames are stable and there has been no race to 1p despite the market being the primary origin of player-to-player trade.

Except the use of warframe.market is not what you would get out of an auction house. You are comparing a listing post/board to an auctioneer. The two are not the same, so what you say has little to do with what would happen if the game gets an auction house.

On 2024-05-23 at 4:35 PM, PublikDomain said:

Where's the race to the bottom? How does this factor into your math equation? Maybe your math equation should be adjusted to face reality... 🙄

And if you're gonna accuse people of being lazy, should I accuse you of being greedy? The only reason y'all want nothing to change is so you can keep buying things for cheap from people who don't know what they've got and sell things back to people who don't know you're ripping them off. You just want to protect your "wtb prime junk 1p"s and keep scalping Rivens. See? I can make accusations too!

You cant see it since that site does not work like an auction house. Let me explain it real simple.

The warframe.market is a listing post/board. It requires manual interaction in order for trades to occur. People here are talking about an auction house, which is a system that automates transactions between players. You are practically comparing a real life listing site to a real life auctioneer. A real life listing site requires you to manually take care of all transactions and trades (mail items, deliver items or require the buyer to come pick em up) after having listed a wish to sell X item, a real life auctioneer works like an ingame auction house (hence the name) by automatically solving all trades and transactions after you having left your items with them and informed them of a potential minimum price along with an optional buy out etc.

With the warframe.market site you are looking at thousands of trades at any given time, with a need for both parties to be online and available. With an auction house you would look at several millions of trades taking place at any given time since there is no requirement for people to be online since they use an auctioneer to take care of it for them.

And you may say that they can limit it so trades are required to be done with player to player interaction. Well then we are no longer talking about an auction house since the automation of an auctioneer is no longer part of it.

 

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Except the use of warframe.market is not what you would get out of an auction house.

I know.

On 2024-05-22 at 7:35 AM, PublikDomain said:

1. There are more ways to make an "auction house" than whatever one version you're thinking of. For example, expanding the Bazaar to meet parity with warframe.market's existing features, just ingame and tied to existing limitations like daily trades.

Bringing ingame trade up to date with features on the level of warframe.market would be more than enough to meet the general desire for better ingame trade without the larger risks of a system with features like instant buyouts or instant delivery. We don't need whatever hyper-specific concept you have of what an "auction house" is from whatever other game, we can have our own version that works for us here.

But there are some who seem to believe that any improvement to ingame trade would be bad. And that's what I was replying to Sierra about. Because trade has already been improved greatly (it's just outside of the game instead of inside of the game) and there's been no race to the bottom, no economic crash, no new dark age, no nothing. Most of these concerns are simply unfounded, with lots of historical evidence to disprove them, and for the concerns that are actually founded there are simple, easy answers.

[PrideB4TheFall]

Certainly I know there are better alternatives to what we have, but do you really think DE would move on it? I'd almost say it's a forgone conclusion they won't. The system works. ( to an arguable extent.) I have never had a trade fail in 7 years. Any problems I encountered were MR restrictions, based on the prospective buyer. To this user,  that's nothing. I use warframe market merely to determine a reasonable price to buy / sell at under stats. I don't even use the sites buy / selling functionality.

I've never had to purchase plat in those 7 years. Self-restraint, and perseverance Veruca Salt.