Removing bullet jump and parkour from 1999 (Just an idea)

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

 

It was DE Megan that was playing, and ironically she was playing in a way thats opposite of natural. I think, and this is just a guess, but your interpretation of natural, was more that her gameplay was smooth, streamlined and efficient. Clean movements that were efficient, no excessive or frantic hyper movement or wasted movements by jumping into a wall, whilst the camera was directed at another angle, so on. Its the kind of thing that Devs will practice a little, so when it comes to showing off a gameplay demo, they make it look cleaner, and smooth, and they know where enemies will tend to pop up, and how to move in a way to show off the environment and lighting in the most favourable and alluring way. 

Compare it to how Megan actually plays organically in casual streams... 

I think ultimately this is just a subjective preference thing. Do you think you might just personally prefer the gameplay or aesthetic that would occur without bullet jumping and slightly limited movement? Its all fiction, so trying to rationalise this from a lore perspective wouldn't really work. Like the Proto Frames generally tend to have the same powers and abilities as their counterparts. How could Amir casually keep pace and even outpace a motorbike/Atomi Cycle, but also not bullet jump? Then regardless DE would would be the one inventing the rules. The thing though about Megan's gameplay, is that players can emulate that already with such tools, if they so choose, its just that some prefer the more frantic pace, even if it might not seem as smooth. Thats also a variable though, since many players can bullet jump and manoeuvre around tile sets with little to no wasted momentum, or wasted movement. There understanding of the tile sets and map geometry, makes them look graceful, natural and effortless, and like how the game should be. Then some people clip on walls, fall off the map, accidentally slide into a pillar, and so on. Except one aspect to all that is that movement is something people can practice, and improve. So sure it can look rough and unwieldy, and not necessarily as picturesque or cinematic as the Tennlive gameplay demo, but eh. 

I don't even necessarily personally disagree. I personally was fine with Kahl, I liked Duviri, and potentially Proto Warframes having some sort of midway fusion, where they are faster than aforementioned, but potentially a bit less extreme than Warframes, could be interesting... but I would imagine, they believe that what they are going for with them, will be more favourable, and easier to integrate. May also depend on the game loops involved with 1999. 

 

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

either an AI reworded this or an AI straight up made this argument, most people don't talk or think this way.

ai detectors put a bunch of your posts 75% to 100% probability of being AI generated

 

Many people express themselves in such a way. Originally I was going to write, many people talk this way, but a little posh formal speaking voice in my head started to get pedantic and point out its writing not talk speech. Generally speaking, AI is just trying to emulate generally formal language with proper grammar and spelling. I have been accused of using AI a few times, but really its just because I enjoy words, language and communication. Then tend to use qualifiers a lot more than most, avoid slang, and have small devil on my shoulder that is constantly giving unsolicited advice on how to make my sentences sound interesting, whilst also trying to maintain as much legibility. Which is somewhat similar to the small devil on the peoples shoulders when it comes to pattern the speech AI use. 

I know that later you clarified that you didn't think their language was bad, and good, which is complimentary, but it can be good to try not accuse people others whilst also disagreeing with them on something else. It can carry a passively insulting insinuation. Different people have different attitudes when it comes to how they express themselves to others. Some people can be a bit more formal, and some can be a bit more casual, some people the language they might be using may not be their mother tongue, some it might be, some people are concise, and some people are long winded (hey, thats me!). 

I generally agree with the other points you make regarding bullet jumping and movement though. Cheers and take care! 

[(PSN)Unstar]

35 minutes ago, AtsiaZ said:

No, they're all explicitly volunteers, Albrecht healing them from whatever original Infestation outbreak was in 1999.

What's the source for this?

[_Eclips3_]

1 minute ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

It was DE Megan that was playing, and ironically she was playing in a way thats opposite of natural. I think, and this is just a guess, but your interpretation of natural, was more that her gameplay was smooth, streamlined and efficient. Clean movements that were efficient, no excessive or frantic hyper movement or wasted movements by jumping into a wall, whilst the camera was directed at another angle, so on. Its the kind of thing that Devs will practice a little, so when it comes to showing off a gameplay demo, they make it look cleaner, and smooth, and they know where enemies will tend to pop up, and how to move in a way to show off the environment and lighting in the most favourable and alluring way. 

Compare it to how Megan actually plays organically in casual streams... 

I think ultimately this is just a subjective preference thing. Do you think you might just personally prefer the gameplay or aesthetic that would occur without bullet jumping and slightly limited movement? Its all fiction, so trying to rationalise this from a lore perspective wouldn't really work. Like the Proto Frames generally tend to have the same powers and abilities as their counterparts. How could Amir casually keep pace and even outpace a motorbike/Atomi Cycle, but also not bullet jump? Then regardless DE would would be the one inventing the rules. The thing though about Megan's gameplay, is that players can emulate that already with such tools, if they so choose, its just that some prefer the more frantic pace, even if it might not seem as smooth. Thats also a variable though, since many players can bullet jump and manoeuvre around tile sets with little to no wasted momentum, or wasted movement. There understanding of the tile sets and map geometry, makes them look graceful, natural and effortless, and like how the game should be. Then some people clip on walls, fall off the map, accidentally slide into a pillar, and so on. Except one aspect to all that is that movement is something people can practice, and improve. So sure it can look rough and unwieldy, and not necessarily as picturesque or cinematic as the Tennlive gameplay demo, but eh. 

I don't even necessarily personally disagree. I personally was fine with Kahl, I liked Duviri, and potentially Proto Warframes having some sort of midway fusion, where they are faster than aforementioned, but potentially a bit less extreme than Warframes, could be interesting... but I would imagine, they believe that what they are going for with them, will be more favourable, and easier to integrate. May also depend on the game loops involved with 1999. 

 

 

Many people express themselves in such a way. Originally I was going to write, many people talk this way, but a little posh formal speaking voice in my head started to get pedantic and point out its writing not talk speech. Generally speaking, AI is just trying to emulate generally formal language with proper grammar and spelling. I have been accused of using AI a few times, but really its just because I enjoy words, language and communication. Then tend to use qualifiers a lot more than most, avoid slang, and have small devil on my shoulder that is constantly giving unsolicited advice on how to make my sentences sound interesting, whilst also trying to maintain as much legibility. Which is somewhat similar to the small devil on the peoples shoulders when it comes to pattern the speech AI use. 

I know that later you clarified that you didn't think their language was bad, and good, which is complimentary, but it can be good to try not accuse people others whilst also disagreeing with them on something else. It can carry a passively insulting insinuation. Different people have different attitudes when it comes to how they express themselves to others. Some people can be a bit more formal, and some can be a bit more casual, some people the language they might be using may not be their mother tongue, some it might be, some people are concise, and some people are long winded (hey, thats me!). 

I generally agree with the other points you make regarding bullet jumping and movement though. Cheers and take care! 

When I say natural, I mean how I would expect a soldier or human to move. It just looks really cheap using recycled animations although most of the game is recycled so can't say I'm surprised. I guess it feels a little lazy as well, it's basically the same game with a new skin as opposed to a genuinely unique experience where the proto-frames are actually something different as opposed to a re-skin. 

Same way something would go off in your mind that something feels a bit "off" if you saw a Battalyst running around using a Warframes animation and sliding/bullet jumping or idk, Master Chief from Halo floating around using Wisps animations. When I say it doesn't make sense, it's more along the lines of, biologically. You wouldn't see an elephant crawling on a wall like a spider, same way I'd expect a human to probably snap their Achilles tendon if they just put their arms by their sides, magically floated up in the air for a few seconds, fell 12 feet and without slowing down, they started doing that weird thing where they put their knees to their chest and hop up a wall. Sure, they might have the full strength of a Warframe, but why not make then a little unique?

[(PSN)robotwars7]

4 hours ago, _Eclips3_ said:

Opinions?

you only need to view the consensus on Kahl and Drifter gameplay to see that warframe isn't nearly as interesting without the movement; the movement and the melee are what make the gameplay unique, different from every other game trying to tap into the same audience.

if you want to argue about the in universe physics, there's no reason Arthur and friends shouldn't have full warframe mobility, because they ARE warframes, up to their neck. their head is still "them" but they have all the abilities that the "true" warframes do. they are still "void-attuned" as Albrecht put it.

slowing us down gives absolutely no benefit at all.

Edited July 24 by (PSN)robotwars7

[_Anise_]

9 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Of course I know that some ppl are short-minded.
 
Ok let's put ourselves in albrecht's position:
I go back thousands of years to the past to create biological soldiers with super-humans powers, since they are based on literally humanoids weapons with the capacity to erase the life on one entire planet but oh!, for some reason they do not have even half of those powers and they are a soldier with a little increase in strength but hey, it makes a lot of sense because you say it, no?.

I asked how you could know it's isn't lore accurate, given we don't know the the whole story or details to 1999? nothing of what you said answered that, it also seemed a little condescending.

"I go back thousands of years to the past "

I think this could possibly be an alternative reality that is stuck on the millennium, I suspect the new years count down will occur multiple times, so arguably not time travel? possibly a void replica of that time period in a pocket universe on a loop, we probably need more context to comment more?

I don't know what the point the rest of your response is trying to make? I have seen nothing so far to suggest they are much different to our warframes with the main differing factor being they don't have operators and retain a lot of their humanity, much more than Umbra.

Also not sure what you are trying to say I said?

12 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

it can be good to try not accuse people others whilst also disagreeing with them on something else. It can carry a passively insulting insinuation

Yeah you're right, my bad.. I really didn't vibe well with the argument and the way it was presented, it did strike me as artificial which I guess immediately concluded it had to be AI, It could have been like you said, presented overly formal on what I perceive as a flawed argument leading me to that conclusion.

[TeaHands]

We get buildings and a city to actually parkour in and you want to get rid of it???

[Valfar_de]

The best things in this games for me:

movement system

Warframes don´t talk, but are instead our instruments.

 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 28 minutos, _Anise_ dijo:

I think this could possibly be an alternative reality that is stuck on the millennium, I suspect the new years count down will occur multiple times, so arguably not time travel? possibly a void replica of that time period in a pocket universe on a loop, we probably need more context to comment more?

Rebeca, I think It made it clear that it is indeed time travel. Also, if it is an alternative reality, how would that affect the origin system? If it's like duviri, for example, how did On-Lyne (aka infested liches) get to the origin system? Isn't it supposed that alternative realities like duviri do not directly affect the original system but vice versa?

In any case so what? If Albrecht is in another reality, does the know of helminth transform when he albrecht travels or something like that?

Edited July 24 by CosoMalvadoNG

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

34 minutes ago, _Eclips3_ said:

When I say natural, I mean how I would expect a soldier or human to move. It just looks really cheap using recycled animations although most of the game is recycled so can't say I'm surprised. I guess it feels a little lazy as well, it's basically the same game with a new skin as opposed to a genuinely unique experience where the proto-frames are actually something different as opposed to a re-skin. 

Same way something would go off in your mind that something feels a bit "off" if you saw a Battalyst running around using a Warframes animation and sliding/bullet jumping or idk, Master Chief from Halo floating around using Wisps animations. When I say it doesn't make sense, it's more along the lines of, biologically. You wouldn't see an elephant crawling on a wall like a spider, same way I'd expect a human to probably snap their Achilles tendon if they just put their arms by their sides, magically floated up in the air for a few seconds, fell 12 feet and without slowing down, they started doing that weird thing where they put their knees to their chest and hop up a wall. Sure, they might have the full strength of a Warframe, but why not make then a little unique?

 

Oh, I assumed as much, I just found it slightly ironic, given the context. Like Megan probably had to run that quest a bunch of different times, to practice getting the right timing for cues, parts where she should rotate the camera a certain way, make a boss battle look like it has variety. 

To put it another way, how did you feel about the Atomicycle doing barrel rolls through large objects? Like thats not really natural either, and I personally winced a little, because the idea of someone riding a motorbike that way though destructible items, whilst cool... My first instinct was to think, motorbikes won't survive that and Arthur wasn't wearing a helmet and, well, motorcycles can have some pretty gnarly accidents ha. That being said, it only lasted a moment and my ability to suspend disbelief kicked in. 

I think what you describe is also going to appeal to a lot of people. Can still be lazy, but something to anticipate. This is after all Warframe, we will get really excited and hyped for a Warframe becoming Prime. Do they play differently? Not usually, but as a fandom we still often get hyped, even though its pretty much the same exact thing, but now with white, gold and looking a bit fancier. 3 or so years later as well. Warframe is very repetitive in many ways as well as fond of reusing assets to save costs. 

Probably a time and value proposition. Again, I personally liked Kahl, but I wouldn't pretend that he was super popular (well I mean he was pretty popular with Kaelli. Even just having human faces, and voice acting is too large a departure for some (though I also imagine the overall impression is positive on that, based on my perception of larger playerbase). 

Also yeah uncanny valley can enter the discussion a little. but also often where creative license gets involved too. I recently watched a tv show that animals, behaving in a way that "wasn't natural" and it did look goofy and silly, but also horrific, and all in all it was fun and entertaining (not quite an Elephant crawling, but fairly close). 

[_Anise_]

6 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Rebeca, I think It made it clear that it is indeed time travel

ok I hadn't seen that, so it is time travel, sounds like it.

so what part of...

1 hour ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

It doesn't make sense in the lore either.

applies to the gemini skins, why can't they can't the protoframes travel to the future? if its just that we are playing as them, well we also play as Kharl too right?

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

31 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

Yeah you're right, my bad.. I really didn't vibe well with the argument and the way it was presented, it did strike me as artificial which I guess immediately concluded it had to be AI, It could have been like you said, presented overly formal on what I perceive as a flawed argument leading me to that conclusion.

 

All good, you clarified later about your intent, and were pretty generally respectful. 

All the best to you! Thanks! 

[_Eclips3_]

20 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

Oh, I assumed as much, I just found it slightly ironic, given the context. Like Megan probably had to run that quest a bunch of different times, to practice getting the right timing for cues, parts where she should rotate the camera a certain way, make a boss battle look like it has variety. 

To put it another way, how did you feel about the Atomicycle doing barrel rolls through large objects? Like thats not really natural either, and I personally winced a little, because the idea of someone riding a motorbike that way though destructible items, whilst cool... My first instinct was to think, motorbikes won't survive that and Arthur wasn't wearing a helmet and, well, motorcycles can have some pretty gnarly accidents ha. That being said, it only lasted a moment and my ability to suspend disbelief kicked in. 

I think what you describe is also going to appeal to a lot of people. Can still be lazy, but something to anticipate. This is after all Warframe, we will get really excited and hyped for a Warframe becoming Prime. Do they play differently? Not usually, but as a fandom we still often get hyped, even though its pretty much the same exact thing, but now with white, gold and looking a bit fancier. 3 or so years later as well. Warframe is very repetitive in many ways as well as fond of reusing assets to save costs. 

Probably a time and value proposition. Again, I personally liked Kahl, but I wouldn't pretend that he was super popular (well I mean he was pretty popular with Kaelli. Even just having human faces, and voice acting is too large a departure for some (though I also imagine the overall impression is positive on that, based on my perception of larger playerbase). 

Also yeah uncanny valley can enter the discussion a little. but also often where creative license gets involved too. I recently watched a tv show that animals, behaving in a way that "wasn't natural" and it did look goofy and silly, but also horrific, and all in all it was fun and entertaining (not quite an Elephant crawling, but fairly close). 

Oh yeah, the Atomicycle made me cringe, the fluidity of the motorbike-bullet-jump, crashing into obstacles bring back memories from LiveLeaks. It reminded me of a kid playing with a toy motorbike and it translated into like the toy universe similar to The Lego Movie where the whole plot was a kid playing with the Lego. But yeah, at least this update gives people to look forward to something like you said. Sorry bit hungover and it's like 1-2 am so no idea how to respond to everything. My brain is done for today.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

16 minutes ago, _Eclips3_ said:

Oh yeah, the Atomicycle made me cringe, the fluidity of the motorbike-bullet-jump, crashing into obstacles bring back memories from LiveLeaks. It reminded me of a kid playing with a toy motorbike and it translated into like the toy universe similar to The Lego Movie where the whole plot was a kid playing with the Lego. But yeah, at least this update gives people to look forward to something like you said. Sorry bit hungover and it's like 1-2 am so no idea how to respond to everything. My brain is done for today.

 

All good, I know you have received some strong counter opinions on this topic, hope you get some time to rest, and can get some water or greasy food to help with the hangover (personally I just try to sleep it off). Take care! 

[_Anise_]

44 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

how did you feel about the Atomicycle doing barrel rolls through large objects? Like thats not really natural either, and I personally winced a little, because the idea of someone riding a motorbike that way though destructible items, whilst cool... My first instinct was to think, motorbikes won't survive

I really didn't like that either, it sort of looked cheap, the swirl effect? though they show in one part jumping off the bike and it smashing into an object and exploding so they seem durable/dispensable at least?

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Just now, _Anise_ said:

I really didn't like that either, it sort of looked cheap, the swirl effect? though they show in one part jumping off the bike and it smashing into an object and exploding so they seem durable/dispensable at least?

 

Yeah it felt a bit forced. I still enjoyed the 1999 demo overall, but the Atomicycle... Its also one of those things, where I think an actual hands on play test can make a big difference.

Also a lot of it seems optional. If its just racing from Point A to Point B, if it handles a bit weird, I probably won't mind (but if those damn VentaKids find their way to 1999 and there is an Atomicycle Faction and Rep Grind that requires me to grind around in circles or doing constant stacking tricks to progress...lol)

I'd happy to be wrong though, if it ends up feeling fun. 

[Aerikx]

2 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Thanks for posting this!  It doesn't explicitly state that we'll have unfettered access to our loadouts and arsenals of course, but I'll remain optimistic.  I can't imagine they'll give us our archwing launchers in the new zones or anything like that, but I'm hopeful that we'll at least get our frames, weapons, pets, gear, and drifter.

True that we have no confirmation if we'll have full access but....let's be honest.

If DE is letting us be the playable then, we'll have full access.

This disappointed me more so because it removes the thrill of the story.

The demo Megan played, man...just about everyone here would have had that Tank dead in under 15s seconds. The moment it's HP turned red it'd be gone. The first vocal of the bgm wouldn't have even finished.

The epic vibe of that demo was the music, the tension, the way she had to dodge the attacks. 

Effectively, we're going to start 1999, and Arthur's section will be the best section of the entire quest....

(Kind of like how in The New War, the Archons were an absolute blast to fight cause with an unmodded Nataruk and Drifter, we actually had to engage with them.

The moment we got our Warframes back...

Well for me, that last Archon I didn't even notice, I actually thought I shot a grunt. Wasn't until I replaced it that I realized that was an Archon, and even then it died in a single shot.)

...then we'll get our frames and well, it's be a face roll (even set to Steel Path). 

Admittedly, I'm a sucker for narrative, so for me, I just see my Operator going:

"So you and your team of Warframes seriously are struggling against these Scaldra and infested? You realize that you alone could wipe out this entire planet and every living thing on it and be home on timr for dinner right?" 

The moment I read that the Hex became incompetent and useless to me. 

Admittedly, I was thinking 1999 would be our Operators going back in time and having to do transference with Arthur and his squad like we did in Whispers in the Walls where we were fighting alongside Arthur via transference. 

With the squad being formed I was expecting a much more tailored experience. 

Now before it gets said: Yes, I will be creating a 'Quest' Loadout where I've nerfed myself to hell and back just so I can enjoy the content.

But I can already hear the collective disappointment when folks blaze through 1999 in minutes only to get slowed down by the rng of the Lich System. 

Then it'll be threads like:

"We waited all that time for a short quest to give us another open world and syndicate to grind..."

"Why was 1999 so short?" 

"Anyone else feel kind of disappointed with 1999?" 

"It's over?"

Etc, etc...

[_Anise_]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I'd happy to be wrong though, if it ends up feeling fun. 

I could see myself having a LOT of fun speeding around the Orb on one of those things! maybe even Cetus but on Deimos? not so much..
🤣

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 1 hora, _Anise_ dijo:

applies to the gemini skins, why can't they can't the protoframes travel to the future? if its just that we are playing as them, well we also play as Kharl too right?

I never talk about the skins, I talk about limiting the abilities of the Proto-Frames, in any case the skins are just that, skin, so why demand lorewise with a skin?

[_Anise_]

14 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

I talk about limiting the abilities of the Proto-Frames

and I said we shouldn't limit the abilities of protoframes, but do we know enough about them at this point to suggest they have to be limited?

[AtsiaZ]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

What's the source for this?

Albrecht's own notes scattered through the lab. Specifically his notes on the creation of the Vessels.

[Slayer-.]

You could just go play COD, Division and any one of the other games out there where you just walk/run phew phew. 

Warframe is what it is please leave it be, I like my addiction to stay as it is. 

[OniDax]

13 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

You could just go play COD, Division and any one of the other games out there where you just walk/run phew phew. 

Warframe is what it is please leave it be, I like my addiction to stay as it is. 

I don't want DE to get rid of bullet jumping/aim gliding, but I would like to see core Warframe walking/running/sprinting animations to be improved to COD's level of quality.

[Genitive]

7 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Rebeca, I think It made it clear that it is indeed time travel. Also, if it is an alternative reality, how would that affect the origin system? If it's like duviri, for example, how did On-Lyne (aka infested liches) get to the origin system? Isn't it supposed that alternative realities like duviri do not directly affect the original system but vice versa?

It looks like it's both. Albrecht travelled to the past and caused the timeline to split. As for how the liches get to the present, it will be probably explained in the quest, but we already know that the void allows different realities to interact, and the Entrati labs are littered with items brought from the past, so the travel is possible. Duviri isn't completely isolated, either.

[Drachnyn]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb _Eclips3_:

Your assertion that "the majority of feedback on these modes isn't that they're awful" doesn't account for the silent majority who may enjoy them but don't voice their opinions online. The community is diverse, and many players appreciate the variety Duviri and Kahl missions bring. Claiming to represent the entire player base without actual statistics is misleading. Until we have concrete data, it's unfair to dismiss the potential for new mechanics based on vocal minority opinions.

Regarding Proto Frames, my suggestions are based on the current understanding and depiction of these suits. We may not have complete information, but it's reasonable to speculate and discuss potential gameplay directions based on what we've seen. Constructive speculation helps developers gauge community interest and explore different design possibilities. If new information comes to light, we can adjust our expectations and discussions accordingly.

Finally, dismissing my point about enriching gameplay as creating "another dead mode" overlooks the value of innovation. Every new idea carries the risk of failure, but it also has the potential to succeed and add depth to the game. Constructive feedback and creative experimentation are helpful for improving game design. Simply rejecting new ideas stifles progress and ignores the possibility of improving the overall experience.

Haven't played it yet, to be fair, bringing Dark Sector to the game would be pretty cool, it could be like a connection between their 2 games that bridges them together. Wouldn't mind if they delayed it till next December if they changed their mind and went with that idea instead.

Kahl was so universally disliked that DE acknowledged it and moved the shard elsewhere.

[(PSN)thowed]

If we make them run like the hunters from Monster Hunter when running from a monster than thatd be a fair trade.