Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[4thBro]

8 hours ago, kuciol said:

Why DE should waste dev time on something thats by deffinition not for vast majority of players?

Holy crap, STOP SAYING THIS.

 

WHO EVEN PLAYS RAILJACKS?

WHO GOES TO THE ZARIMAN ANYMORE?

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID A SORTIE???

 

I am so beyond TIRED of the fallacies. You KNOW you're doing it. Just stop. Why are people like this?

Actually getting angry at humanity right now, lmaooo...

 

9 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Yeah yeah yeah, there is a literal infinite amount of ways to do this and yet you failed to give one (1).

Go ahead and try.

 

8 hours ago, kuciol said:

Will you give any solutions to problems pointed out or not?

 

I did. I have a whole thread about it. Are you asking me to repeat the contents of that thread into this one??? Legitimate question. I can't tell if that's what you're asking me to do.

[4thBro]

5 hours ago, kuciol said:

Thats like saying there is only one way to make music, or only one way to make good movie.

Total lack of self-awareness. You say this, and then turn around to contradict yourself by telling me that there's no way to make challenging content without ruining the game for the lower tier players.

 

5 hours ago, Kaiga said:

This is basic game design. People play games, particularly games about killing things, to overcome challenges- otherwise the most popular games on steam would be simulators of the biggest button possible to easily kill the greatest number of things possible, since you seem to think the world revolves around casual easy appeal.
But that's not true, is it?

This is completely accurate. This is akin to my statement about why nobody plays level 5 Earth missions over and over.

The only way there's meaning to the slaughter is if the enemies are believed to have some semblance of resistance or fight to them. And the only difference between a lower tier player and a higher tier player is what enemies they consider as such,

All we're asking for is something to appease the higher tier players. The issue is that the lower tier players are assuming they're the only ones playing the game, and thus, they gatekeep the idea of adding more stuff that they will struggle with, because - contrary to the ego ad hominem they keep throwing around about why higher tier players want this content - it's actually the ego of the lower tier players that can't handle the addition of more stuff they won't be able to complete. And I say this purely based on what I'm reading from said players. They have, multiple times, directly stated that they don't want harder content added because they will feel bad about not being able to do it...

 

Crazy stuff, man.

[MrInubis]

6 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Total lack of self-awareness. You say this, and then turn around to contradict yourself by telling me that there's no way to make challenging content without ruining the game for the lower tier players.

 

This is completely accurate. This is akin to my statement about why nobody plays level 5 Earth missions over and over.

The only way there's meaning to the slaughter is if the enemies are believed to have some semblance of resistance or fight to them. And the only difference between a lower tier player and a higher tier player is what enemies they consider as such,

All we're asking for is something to appease the higher tier players. The issue is that the lower tier players are assuming they're the only ones playing the game, and thus, they gatekeep the idea of adding more stuff that they will struggle with, because - contrary to the ego ad hominem they keep throwing around about why higher tier players want this content - it's actually the ego of the lower tier players that can't handle the addition of more stuff they won't be able to complete. And I say this purely based on what I'm reading from said players. They have, multiple times, directly stated that they don't want harder content added because they will feel bad about not being able to do it...

 

Crazy stuff, man.

You miss the point on purpose? My statement about other ways to make a game has nothing to do with additions to already made game. Just a hint. Players play higher lvl content because its worth it, not because of challenge. Btw you still didnt adress a single problem stated in this topic.

Edited August 5 by kuciol

[Ascythian]

Play one  of these.

RimWorld

EVE Online

Stellaris

Hades

Dead Cells

Squad

Im sure people can give other examples.

If you want challenge then random generated games like RimWorld, build and destroy like Stellaris and pvp games like Squad or pvp MMO like EVE Online are your best option.

Come back in a few years and Warframe will still be around with loads of new content.

Edited August 5 by Ascythian

[Sojufueled]

11 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Well, I have been asking this forum repeatedly and no one can answer. The question is simple. Given the diversity of your entire arsenal (warframe 4 abilities, 3 weapons, at least 5 arcanes, companion, operator and others), is it mathematically possible to design a challenge? Even if it can be done solo, how about a 4 member squad?

The answer is, you cannot. It is not possible without arsenal restriction.

A more fundamental question is why a sandbox power fantasy game like Warframe has to be challenging. It sounds like people are asking for sushi in a pizza parlor.

At present, I think EDA is a pretty good challenge. It makes me slow down enough to consider my loadout and it feels rewarding enough to justify the extra attention. I don't even necessarily need the stakes of a challenge to be mission failure. Guardian Eximi are great units for a challenge. They can significantly slow down the kills unless I change my tactics to find an angle of attack and single them out. The new faction mechs are fun because they have weakspots that move around. The actualyl murmur guys can be a little more confusing, but I like the 3 arm guy. New content in general seems to have more interesting challenges. It's mostly the procedural waves of guys from the standard 4 factions that need a facelift. (Apropros of nothing, when was the last time you shot a corpus helmet off? Is that still a thing?)

[Zimzala]

13 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Man do I hate this logic.

Yeah - sure - great. Guess they can just keep doing the same formula forever and ever, I guess.

They might lose me as a player, but who cares, right? Minus one, plus two? That's a win, right?

I'm trying to say that they can just keep one, and still plus two. They don't need to minus.

But you're hard-stuck on the, "Well it's working, so why touch it?"

Guess I'll just uninstall Warframe because I'm so unimportant, lmao?

(Is this the mentality you really wanna run with?)

31 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Holy crap, STOP SAYING THIS.

WHO EVEN PLAYS RAILJACKS?

WHO GOES TO THE ZARIMAN ANYMORE?

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID A SORTIE???

I am so beyond TIRED of the fallacies. You KNOW you're doing it. Just stop. Why are people like this?

Actually getting angry at humanity right now, lmaooo...

I did. I have a whole thread about it. Are you asking me to repeat the contents of that thread into this one??? Legitimate question. I can't tell if that's what you're asking me to do.

You are hilarious.

It's as if you think the words of players on this forum somehow run the company and that if you don't 'stop' them, then 'bad things happen' because 'you are so tired' of people not agreeing with you.

Get a grip.

You don't run WF, DE or the world, you are just player like the rest of us, nothing more.

The people you 'tire' of have no more control over teh games future than you do.

It's really funny you think you can just throw out the entire conversation about profitability and ROI, just because you spent some money you think you can re-arrange priorities and goals...that one in particular is very funny.

And everyone knows if you put it in all caps, it makes it more important, right?

This just in...they make decaffeinated brands that taste great!

Thanks for all the stand-up comedy! 

[4thBro]

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

Players play higher lvl content because its worth it, not because of challenge. Btw you still didnt adress a single problem stated in this topic.

No they don't, LOL.

Do you have any idea how incredibly useless this drop bonus is for Steel Path??? (FYI: Resource Drop Chance is not the same as a Resource Boost.)

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Resource_Drop_Chance_Booster?so=search

 

Nobody is playing Steel Path for the bonus you get for playing it.

People that play Steel Path do it because Steel Path has become the game on Normal Mode due to power creep, and actual Normal Mode is basically Toddler Mode.

I'm pretty sure my Sentinel could solo Normal Mode. I'm pretty sure I could play Nourish and let the retaliation damage kill everything in Normal Mode.

And guess what? Nobody likes enemies that are THAT easy. Which brings us back to what I have already said a few times: The only way killing enemies has meaning is if those enemies are believed to be strong.

 

... Anyway...

I don't know what "problems" you're referring to that you want me to address. So, please, go ahead and tell me some. I'll respond directly.

 

1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

You don't run WF, DE or the world, you are just player like the rest of us, nothing more.

Your entire post is misdirected. You quoted me, but you're effectively talking to the other guy, lol. I'm the one that's on the side of expressing that I'm just another player like the rest of us. The other guy is the one acting like he's more important, by stating that because HE doesn't want something added, that it shouldn't be.

 

You may need to go back and reread who's saying what. In either case, I'm pretty confident you're posting disingenuously, so that's why I won't respond to you anymore.

Edited August 5 by 4thBro

[MrInubis]

Yes because steel essence, arcanes from acolites, higher spawn rate of enemies (that you one shot anyway btw) and a lot higher affinity gain has nothing to do with it. Stop embarrasing yourself. I/ askad you 3 times already im not repeating myself.

Edited August 6 by kuciol

[Kaiga]

7 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Except even mildly devoted players won't consider 60 eyes an "endgame challenge" so I don't know what is your input in this discussion.

I'm aware you have a reputation for being a contrarian dolt around here but, but please stay on track here for a bit.

I said that was an example of something, quoting myself here, word for word, that cannot be mindlessly facerolled by M1 spam while standing still. 

Not "the solution to everything" but an example of good content.That claim itself is also strange. Did you poll this? Where did you get those facts about what the majority of mildy devoted players consider from? Or did you make that up.

7 hours ago, RichardKam said:

If that's truly what the vet are asking for (is it though?)

I know you don't play, but if you look around you'll see plenty of people who have reached L4/the end of the story and are looking for something to do that is a little more engaging than AOE spamming through the same missions we've always had. This is obvious, readily avaliable to read, especially during content droughts.

Repayable, challenging content is what keeps people around. Normally in games this is PVP related, but warframe doesn't have this. 

Edited August 5 by Kaiga

[4thBro]

23 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Stop embarrasing yourself. I/ askad you 3 times already im dont repeating myself.

 

[Prexades]

People complaining about how easy the game is are usually the first to complain if something mildly challenging like Jade Eximus appear.

Edited August 5 by Prexades

[Monolake]

Its not about 'easy' its about being engaging and having GAMEPLAY = player actions and decisions matter. Running to a map marker and waiting on a timer and mindlessly spamming AOE is not gameplay, I wish DE would understand it. 

There are well-designed gamemodes of course but most common ones are brainded and can be automated by a macro - they dont have gameplay, they dont require human attention.

Edited August 5 by Monolake

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

Power creep is a thing in WF. A decade ago the stalker and faction assassins (G3 and Zanuka) were legit difficult mobs. Now a fart removes them from existence. If DE wanted WF to be a difficult game they could. But nobody goes to a buffet just for the sushi.

A casual game is casual for mass appeal.

[Prexades]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Magician_NG:

Power creep is a thing in WF. A decade ago the stalker and faction assassins (G3 and Zanuka) were legit difficult mobs. Now a fart removes them from existence. If DE wanted WF to be a difficult game they could. But nobody goes to a buffet just for the sushi.

A casual game is casual for mass appeal.

When I started playing Soma Prime and Tigris Prime were S tier weapons. DE could buff the difficulty of mobs but that would mess up the experience of new players who haven't optimized their gear yet.

[Zimzala]

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

Your entire post is misdirected. You quoted me, but you're effectively talking to the other guy, lol. I'm the one that's on the side of expressing that I'm just another player like the rest of us. The other guy is the one acting like he's more important, by stating that because HE doesn't want something added, that it shouldn't be.

You may need to go back and reread who's saying what. In either case, I'm pretty confident you're posting disingenuously, so that's why I won't respond to you anymore.

Nope, it is totally directed at you, but you are incapable of hearing it because you cannot seem to hear anything other than the sound of your own voice....

It just makes it funnier to me, so thanks for the comedy.

I think it is hilarious that you are losing your mind over not being able to convince forums goers of your outlook, when none of it matters.

I just think its funny to watch you lose it over other people saying things you don't like to read.

Good Luck and Happy Gaming!

[Monolake]

15 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Well, I have been asking this forum repeatedly and no one can answer. The question is simple. Given the diversity of your entire arsenal (warframe 4 abilities, 3 weapons, at least 5 arcanes, companion, operator and others), is it mathematically possible to design a challenge? Even if it can be done solo, how about a 4 member squad?

The answer is, you cannot. It is not possible without arsenal restriction.

A more fundamental question is why a sandbox power fantasy game like Warframe has to be challenging. It sounds like people are asking for sushi in a pizza parlor.

Yeah I could design you an engaging gameplay or even a boss fight  - it just requires an understanding of fundamentals of gameplay and combat, which can be put into few words: player actions and decisions matter and combat is simply dealing damage and avoiding damage. But its DEs job and they have designers on payroll who should know all that. Whatever we post on the forums is not even read by DE.

[4thBro]

1 hour ago, Prexades said:

People complaining about how easy the game is are usually the first to complain if something mildly challenging like Jade Eximus appear.

Pretty sure you're pulling this out of nowhere. Show me... one example of the same poster saying 1) the game is too easy, and then 2) that something is too hard.

Just one example. I'm asking you to cherrypick, because I'm curious if there even IS a single bad example that can be exploited.

 

40 minutes ago, Prexades said:

When I started playing Soma Prime and Tigris Prime were S tier weapons. DE could buff the difficulty of mobs but that would mess up the experience of new players who haven't optimized their gear yet.

Nobody is talking about laying a single finger on the early game experience.

 

32 minutes ago, Monolake said:

Yeah I could design you an engaging gameplay or even a boss fight  - it just requires an understanding of fundamentals of gameplay and combat, which can be put into few words: player actions and decisions matter and combat is simply dealing damage and avoiding damage. But its DEs job and they have designers on payroll who should know all that. Whatever we post on the forums is not even read by DE.

Man, this is a whole other topic, as it frequently seems like the devs don't play their own game. I feel like it should be part of their job to play it. But there are so many little case-by-case issues that have been around for years, that I'm constantly thinking to myself... "Does nobody at DE play X frame or Y gun? Because these issues are extremely common, there's no way they wouldn't run into the problem and then fix it at work the next day."

Even small QOL things. Even something as small as... "Omg, I can't leave this menu even by hitting escape, until I've waited for this little loot reward message to go away! That's so annoying. I should fix that real quick."

There's just SO MANY things that make me say... "Nobody in that office is playing the game. They just program the next content patch, make sure it goes from start to finish without crashing, and then release it and begin work on the next thing."

Edited August 5 by 4thBro

[Prexades]

vor 1 Minute schrieb 4thBro:

Nobody is talking about laying a single finger on the early game experience.

Actually you specifically mentioned Stalker, G3 and Zanuka. Since invasions are unlocked along with early to mid star map, those are part of the new player experience.

When Overguard was first introduced it wasn't a problem for veteran players but newer players hit a wall, since Eximus can spawn on the first planet.

[4thBro]

Just now, Prexades said:

Actually you specifically mentioned Stalker, G3 and Zanuka. Since invasions are unlocked along with early to mid star map, those are part of the new player experience.

When Overguard was first introduced it wasn't a problem for veteran players but newer players hit a wall, since Eximus can spawn on the first planet.

You're thinking of someone else. I don't think I've typed those 3 words in at least 5 years.

[GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, Prexades said:

When I started playing Soma Prime and Tigris Prime were S tier weapons. DE could buff the difficulty of mobs but that would mess up the experience of new players who haven't optimized their gear yet.

THIS! This is what a lot of these guys are not understanding. 

We're not talking about a game with players racking up 10s to low hundreds of hours of gameplay. We have players with over a 1000 hours still asking for tips and tricks. The difficulty is there but its distribution throughout the game is good enough to keep engagement very high and all levels of players feeling good in whatever zone they feel happy in. DE doesn't leave anyone out, but there are obvious downsides to that, and one of them is maintaining a sustainable high level difficulty.

Luckily, the game doesn't, and has never, needed sustainable high difficulty. Warframe simply follows the same exact recipe as 99.9% of other games: We try the new, harder thing. Most of us get wrecked. We rethink our gear and approach (or some of us wait for  YouTubers to hold our hands and then pretend like they're good). We try again, figure out the patterns and weaknesses. Then, we win, get the reward option and boost that option enough to make the repeat easier and easier. We've had that recipe since high level T4 survival, Mot and the Eidolons. We master it and await the next challenge. 

Honestly, what I want to see written by one of these "Need harder content" guys is the HOW to do it. Then, we can all respond and see where we get. 

[4thBro]

37 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

players feeling good in whatever zone they feel happy in.

 

37 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

the game doesn't, and has never, needed sustainable high difficulty

 

I'm gonna let you think about how these two statements are contradictory.

 

  

37 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

Honestly, what I want to see written by one of these "Need harder content" guys is the HOW to do it. Then, we can all respond and see where we get. 

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1407073-greater-rift-type-game-mode-please/#comment-13087044

I feel like I keep linking this over and over, because people are asking for exactly what it contains, and they just aren't clicking it and/or reading any of it, before continuing to tell me that I'm not providing any solutions or suggestions.

Edited August 6 by 4thBro

[(PSN)CUInc]

If it’s not hard enough, go play a different game.

[RichardKam]

7小时前 , Kaiga 说:

I'm aware you have a reputation for being a contrarian dolt around here but, but please stay on track here for a bit.

I said that was an example of something, quoting myself here, word for word, that cannot be mindlessly facerolled by M1 spam while standing still. 

Not "the solution to everything" but an example of good content.That claim itself is also strange. Did you poll this? Where did you get those facts about what the majority of mildy devoted players consider from? Or did you make that up.

I know you don't play, but if you look around you'll see plenty of people who have reached L4/the end of the story and are looking for something to do that is a little more engaging than AOE spamming through the same missions we've always had. This is obvious, readily avaliable to read, especially during content droughts.

Repayable, challenging content is what keeps people around. Normally in games this is PVP related, but warframe doesn't have this. 

 

6小时前 , Monolake 说:

Yeah I could design you an engaging gameplay or even a boss fight  - it just requires an understanding of fundamentals of gameplay and combat, which can be put into few words: player actions and decisions matter and combat is simply dealing damage and avoiding damage. But its DEs job and they have designers on payroll who should know all that. Whatever we post on the forums is not even read by DE.

All the big TED talk and philosophical dissertation and yet we still do not have one (1) descriptive and tangible way of literally doing a challenge.

And then oh the SP 60 eyes boss fight is an excellent example of challenge! Look at that! So engaging!

Which can be done by the freaking octavia without firing once.

引用

 

Or if you prefer some firepower.

引用

 

Every "difficulty" or "challenge" thread is something like this.

I don't think Warframe needs any particular challenge. It is a looter shooter for mostly casual players => "NO! It can be more! It was held back by how easy it is! We want challenge!"

Well OK. But the current status of the game is too complex and powercrept that any meaningful challenge is not possible without arsenal restriction => "NO!!! It can definitely be done!! DE is just lazy and you refuse to listen to us!! Look at 60 eyes!"

Oh that's what you wanted? If that is the difficulty level you are looking for, then we already have Archon Boreal and Alchemy, maybe Void Cascade as well? Kela De Thaym is also nice, you know? All of them cannot be afk with AoE already. Parkour. Weak point mechanics. Avoid getting shot. Why are you complaining?

If you do not consider the above "challenging", and yet cannot define or explain what you are looking for, and keep complaining the lack of "challenge" in this game, then I do not know who is the contrarian here.

So, when we talk about a lack of challenging content, what exactly are we talking about? Seriously.

[RichardKam]

1小时前 , 4thBro 说:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1407073-greater-rift-type-game-mode-please/#comment-13087044

I feel like I keep linking this over and over, because people are asking for exactly what it contains, and they just aren't clicking it and/or reading any of it, before continuing to tell me that I'm not providing any solutions or suggestions.

Dear sir, you got trashed in that thread. Why you are so proud of it?

Also, in any discussion, define something with positive, not negative. You cannot define something as being "not xxx". It should be "something IS xxx". Otherwise, no one understands you, and that is exactly what you did in that thread.

[4thBro]

29 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Dear sir, you got trashed in that thread. Why you are so proud of it?

The fact that you say I got "trashed," and therefore view all of this as some kind of competition that you need to "win," really speaks volumes.

 

All that happened in that thread, in terms of guessing what you even mean by "trashed," was that some people said they didn't want the game mode I was suggesting.

And as I explained in that thread, it doesn't matter that some people don't want it. No game mode in all of Warframe is something that everyone enjoys. That's the whole point of Warframe. It's a "something for everyone" type of game. And I'm trying, exhaustingly, to explain to you that, currently, there is not something for me, or many other players that are just like me.

And you still sit here... trying to prevent these players from having something they enjoy.

And I'm still trying to figure out WHY you don't want those players to be happy.

But all you're focused on is having a retort, and winning the debate, and "trashing on me."