how to prevent slamkong abuse without nerfing Cloudwalker or Melee Influence

[Waeleto]

9 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

To those that aren't ever seeing them, do you play typically play Steel Path?  Do you regularly run fissures and incursions?  That's where I see them the most, but then again that's basically the only content I play where they would feasibly appear.  I solo Netracells or play them with a friend.  And EDA's randomized gear incentives keep them from appearing there, I suppose.

I play NOTHING but sp and especially longer sp fissures and until now i haven't seen wukong doing that specific strategy

[sunderthefirmament]

7 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

especially longer sp fissures

This might be it then.  I almost exclusively play Steel Path now, but I do not do endless anymore.  I just don't have the stomach for it.  I think part of the appeal of the slamkong is its speed, which might be why I've only seen it in the faster fissures and incursions. 

 

Others in this thread have mentioned Saryn or other frames that can do what a slamkong does just by pressing 4, but I'm not convinced.  Saryn takes time to build up her spore damage, and she's nowhere near as mobile as Wukong.  And I can't think of any Warframe's 4 ability that will compete with a slamkong for repeated AOE damage on demand while also staying so mobile.  TS Titania obviously moves faster, but her damage isn't going to compete at Steel Path levels.  Pillage Gyre could probably come close to the damage and coverage, but like with Saryn, she's not as mobile.  Kullervo might compete for mobility and damage, but Kullervo's 1 isn't anywhere near as forgiving as Wukong's 2 for repositioning.  The sort of speed that slamkong is capable of isn't really needed for endless missions, where you'll likely end up moving back and forth between a few rooms, as opposed to hurtling towards extraction at breakneck speeds.

 

Keep an eye out, and check damage % numbers on the stat screen.  If you're in a quick Steel Path fissure or incursion and a Wukong is miles ahead of the group with 99-100% of the damage done, they're probably using a Magistar.  I'm not saying they're everywhere yet, but they are very strong and very fast.  In a game this grindy, I don't really blame players for picking the strongest and fastest options.  Efficiency is attractive, so I wouldn't be surprised if something as efficient as the slamkong becomes more popular.

[stormy505]

I've seen more posts complaining about slamkong than actually seeing them ingame.

[sunderthefirmament]

2 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

I've seen more posts complaining about slamkong than actually seeing them ingame.

I've already mentioned that they're not ubiquitous in the North American region.  My rather paltry testing this afternoon found them in roughly ~10% of Steel Path exterminate fissures.  The purpose of this thread isn't to complain about them.  It's to direct any potential future nerf in a direction that doesn't harm elements of Warframe that I currently use and enjoy, namely Cloudwalker and Melee Influence.

[DrivaMain]

10 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

If the build was that good, then that would be the case here too. Because hype YouTubers make their money with things like that.

Besides, Asians have a completely different mentality. We know what's going on in their countries. Something like that wouldn't be possible in Europe/US.

And what you're claiming still needs to be proven.

It's really good. I've seen Slamkongs plow through EDA Eximus Necramechs without too much effort.

I personally can't be bothered to invest to a setup that is too disruptive which will receive the Nerf Hammer in the future. So, you either try it yourself or find someone else to record its benchmark for you if you can't take my word for it.

I can't really say "Asians gravitate toward Wukong due to culture" a good reasoning either. Wukong isn't the only Asian culture influenced Warframe. Nezha exist and yet it's usage rate is extremely long compared to wukong.

Edited August 24 by DrivaMain

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

Better solution, let us blacklist frames so we never go into matchmaking with them.

Slamkongs happy because they can slam.

Everyone else is happy because No Slamkongs.

Everyone is happy.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Waeleto:

I play NOTHING but sp and especially longer sp fissures and until now i haven't seen wukong doing that specific strategy

I switched to Asia out of curiosity and didn't see a single Wukong (and certainly not a Slam Wukong) on SP in several hours (dailies+relics).

This has nothing to do with a discussion, because the topic title seems to be a lie. And as for the situation in Europe/US: I've been playing almost every day since 2013 and have only encountered a single Slam Wukong in the game.

Edited August 24 by Venus-Venera

[ReddyDisco]

14 hours ago, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

Venus is toxic, it’s been pointed out to them numerous times.

Yea i've blocked them a while ago, peace and quiet 

[MrInubis]

Honestly i also didnt see any slamkong yet. I have a feeling this problem is overblown out of proportion. In exterminate i see volt and titanias a lot, wukongs mostly in spy, for leveling crew members are exploited a lot. Slamkong? If not for a forums i wouldnt even know such thing existed.

[0_The_F00l]

I already have a bias against specific wukong players ,

And I can't go one public match without encountering a wukong that wipes the map faster than most players can catch up ( unless they too are using wukong.)

This is more prevalent on Asia server than anything else. And is definitely disruptive.

The combination of slam multipliers , weapons with unique slam mechanics , electric proc weightage , melee influence and wukong speed to move across the map while easily slamming from cloudwalker has resulted in this.

Asia server is notoriously filled with such players , I would absolutely love to be given an option to not be part of their squad.

Until then I can either play solo or play a race.

It is really ruining my experience.

[RyllusPurple]

add a enemy that reflects non direct damage at close range. 🤪

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

1 hour ago, ReddyDisco said:

Yea i've blocked them a while ago, peace and quiet 

Totally understandable 

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

No, what I'm suggesting as an alternative to more heavyhanded nerfs wouldn't really affect the average slam user.  It would just disincentivize using slam on repeat and nothing else.  If a player is using slams for mobility or weaving them in here and there, they wouldn't be affected at all.

 

I'm not begging for nerfs here.  I'm hoping that if DE decides slamkong needs a nerf they will take a different approach than nerfing Cloudwalker or Melee Influence, both of which are things I enjoy in Warframe.

But that would nerf it for everyone, since there are other slam builds that do not include the animation canceling Wukong. Weapons that do not rely on an area slam around them, but that are instead used as another ranged weapon, like Exec and Sampotes. Or on frames like Kullervo, where you might want to Heavy Slam a few times in a row since you have access to capped efficiency very easily, which also applies to some other weapon on other frames that come with high innate HA efficiency. That would suddenly not be possible since you want to fix one frame, one that isnt performing overly well either with the build.

22 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

Actually, the mele warframes do it much better. Above all, many have so much tank or even overguard that more sprint mods are possible. Mele damage is also increased significantly thanks to purple shards. And at Wukong I do have to take care of energy management.
or even volt without def mods, enough range, max str for 1st skill buff + gloom aura and melee influence build. He outruns every slam wukong and can't die at all.

and the world doesn't revolve around ext missions. there is much more content.

Exactly this. 

[sunderthefirmament]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But that would nerf it for everyone, since there are other slam builds that do not include the animation canceling Wukong. Weapons that do not rely on an area slam around them, but that are instead used as another ranged weapon, like Exec and Sampotes. Or on frames like Kullervo, where you might want to Heavy Slam a few times in a row since you have access to capped efficiency very easily, which also applies to some other weapon on other frames that come with high innate HA efficiency.

Those seem more like niche cases than the "average slam user" I defined in the post you replied to, but you bring up some good points.  Are "slams" during melee combos considered the same as "slams" from a jump?  If so, perhaps DE could separate the two if slamkong catches on in other regions and becomes oppressive.

 

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That would suddenly not be possible since you want to fix one frame, one that isnt performing overly well either with the build.

I take issue with the "performing overly well" part.  If you see a capable slamkong in action, you might change your tune.  They're faster and more mobile than Maiming Strike ever was, and they cover a wider area.  There's nothing else for the rest of the team to even do if one is in your game in the game modes where I've seen them.  And no, this isn't new for Warframe.  But it is taken to an extreme here that I haven't seen before.  I think part of what makes it notable is how high the damage is.  As I've said earlier, TS Titania certainly can clear a normal star chart exterminate at blinding speeds, but her damage will fall off in Steel Path, or at least take time to accumulate.  That's not the case with slamkong.

 

My thread could be utterly pointless if slamkongs never grow in popularity outside of the Asia region, or if they do grow in popularity and DE decides they're fine.  But I thought I'd put an idea out there so that if a nerf is coming, the parts of the build I enjoy aren't affected.

[SneakyErvin]

31 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Those seem more like niche cases than the "average slam user" I defined in the post you replied to, but you bring up some good points.  Are "slams" during melee combos considered the same as "slams" from a jump?  If so, perhaps DE could separate the two if slamkong catches on in other regions and becomes oppressive.

Not more niche than Wukong with slams really. I'm ot sure how the slams during combos are considered, since the weapons meantioned are regular slams that simply behave differently than a normal radius slam. Sampotes sends a multi-hitting shockwave, wider if you heavy slam, and Exec does roughly the same. 

And if Wukong becomes oppressive, should a simple fix to cloudwalker be better? By removing the animation canceling etc. that makes it unique and "abusable"? Or make it so you can only cancel cloudwalker by tapping the skill again. There are several solutions to it that would simply target Wukong and no one else.

35 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I take issue with the "performing overly well" part.  If you see a capable slamkong in action, you might change your tune.  They're faster and more mobile than Maiming Strike ever was, and they cover a wider area.  There's nothing else for the rest of the team to even do if one is in your game in the game modes where I've seen them.  And no, this isn't new for Warframe.  But it is taken to an extreme here that I haven't seen before.  I think part of what makes it notable is how high the damage is.  As I've said earlier, TS Titania certainly can clear a normal star chart exterminate at blinding speeds, but her damage will fall off in Steel Path, or at least take time to accumulate.  That's not the case with slamkong.

 

My thread could be utterly pointless if slamkongs never grow in popularity outside of the Asia region, or if they do grow in popularity and DE decides they're fine.  But I thought I'd put an idea out there so that if a nerf is coming, the parts of the build I enjoy aren't affected.

So, you nerf slam for everyone, then the Wukongs shift over to using Kuva Tonkor instead, since it can practically do the same thing. Cloud->shoot->cloud->shoot etc. More than enough bullets to clear the missions you have concerns over. And it will still be limited to a very select few missions, or more likely exterminate alone.

[sunderthefirmament]

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not more niche than Wukong with slams really. I'm ot sure how the slams during combos are considered, since the weapons meantioned are regular slams that simply behave differently than a normal radius slam. Sampotes sends a multi-hitting shockwave, wider if you heavy slam, and Exec does roughly the same. 

Then I'd trust that DE could separate the effects.

 

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And if Wukong becomes oppressive, should a simple fix to cloudwalker be better? By removing the animation canceling etc. that makes it unique and "abusable"? Or make it so you can only cancel cloudwalker by tapping the skill again. There are several solutions to it that would simply target Wukong and no one else.

That might be what you'd prefer, but the point of this thread is to offer an alternative so that Cloudwalker can remain as it is, and of course to open up discussion which you are participating in.  Thanks for that.

 

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So, you nerf slam for everyone, then the Wukongs shift over to using Kuva Tonkor instead, since it can practically do the same thing. Cloud->shoot->cloud->shoot etc.

Thanks for bringing this up.  The Kuva Tonkor has a reload between each shot, which functions similarly to a cooldown.  It can be reduced with mods or an arcane, but mods that speed up reloads take up a mod slot that could be used for more damage.  The Kuva Tonkor is a fantastic weapon, but it's not going to do the same damage as a slamkong, nor will it have the same AOE.

 

I think you're correct that people will turn towards the next best thing if a highly efficient method of doing something gets nerfed.  I wonder what that would be if Cloudwalker got nerfed, as you seem to believe would be a better alternative than what I'm proposing.  It would likely be another frame with a mobility power that could be used to animation cancel, but I'm not sure what that would be.

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Then I'd trust that DE could separate the effects.

But how would that solve anything? People are still using slams on other weapons. Wukongs arent the only frames using it. So it isnt a solution to nerf slams with CDs due to one frame.

5 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

That might be what you'd prefer, but the point of this thread is to offer an alternative so that Cloudwalker can remain as it is, and of course to open up discussion which you are participating in.  Thanks for that.

So tie the CD to the skill. Add a slam damage debuff tied to exiting cloudwalker that lasts for as many seconds as you wanted a CD on the damage for slams in general. I think it is more important to keep the other near 60 frames intact than a single skill on a single frame to "fix" a niche use.

10 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Thanks for bringing this up.  The Kuva Tonkor has a reload between each shot, which functions similarly to a cooldown.  It can be reduced with mods or an arcane, but mods that speed up reloads take up a mod slot that could be used for more damage.  The Kuva Tonkor is a fantastic weapon, but it's not going to do the same damage as a slamkong, nor will it have the same AOE.

 

I think you're correct that people will turn towards the next best thing if a highly efficient method of doing something gets nerfed.  I wonder what that would be if Cloudwalker got nerfed, as you seem to believe would be a better alternative than what I'm proposing.  It would likely be another frame with a mobility power that could be used to animation cancel, but I'm not sure what that would be.

Yes, it has the reload, but it doesnt have to move to the targets first, so you can swish around the map in other ways. Tonkor has a larger AoE by default aswell, since it reaches near 12m while Heavy Slam caps at 9 meters aside from a very select few weapons. My main point is they would just move over to the next best thing inline for that playstyle, which isnt exactly good to start with compared to other options.

Whatever they'd move over to someone would complain. In reality there is nothing to fix since it is so limited in the first place. Extermination is just not something to nerf things over, because it's mindnumblingly tedius uninteresting missions that dont pose any form of challenge in the first place. So it really just comes down to people being more interested in scoreboard stats than just getting the S#&$ done quick. I mean, do you have any examples outside of exterminate where Slamkongs are a big issue in asia?

 

[TARINunit9]

On 2024-08-23 at 6:17 AM, sunderthefirmament said:

So if slamkong is perceived by DE as in need of a nerf, I hope they take a different approach, an approach they could have considered instead of outright gutting Maiming Strike years ago: try a cooldown.  Put a cooldown on whatever effect (a recent buff, I believe) is giving slams their absurd damage so that players are encouraged to use it every so often as opposed to making it their only source of damage.

Funny you should mention Maiming Strike, because they tried this exact solution with it:

The biggest abuser of Maiming Body Rush Overload was the Telos Boltace. When first released the AoE super slash had no cooldown and it rocketed to the top spot. DE first nerfed the Boltace, and only the Boltace, by adding a cooldown to the super slash...

...Didn't work. Players just switched to Whips instead. So Maiming Strike as a whole had to get nerfed (no longer hits through walls)

[sunderthefirmament]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So tie the CD to the skill. Add a slam damage debuff tied to exiting cloudwalker that lasts for as many seconds as you wanted a CD on the damage for slams in general. I think it is more important to keep the other near 60 frames intact than a single skill on a single frame to "fix" a niche use.

Oooh, I like this suggestion. This is a “nerf” I could get behind, if DE decides a nerf is in order. It seems like it wouldn’t affect other builds, and other builds aren’t likely to be as quick as a slamkong. 

[Lord_Drod]

He's really only good on the small corridor tiles.  On larger tiles, he'll get smoked.

Thermal still works.  There's plenty of nuking options.

[LuckyNecro]

Am 23.8.2024 um 15:17 schrieb sunderthefirmament:

 

 _{and cloudwalker to animation cancel and reposition quickly}

Can you please tell more about this animation that gets canceld from cloudwalk?

 

I think the only reason for "slamkong" is because you can go god/fast from A to B with him, so changing somthing at Wukong will only resoult in changing "slamkong" to "slamsomethingels" and everything will be the same and even without changing wukong there may be better options to do that like "slamphyer" (Zephyr) or "slamaus" (Gauss) or....

[sunderthefirmament]

3 minutes ago, LuckyNecro said:

Can you please tell more about this animation that gets canceld from cloudwalk?

I googled it for you.  Here's a deeplink in a YouTube video.

[LuckyNecro]

vor 54 Minuten schrieb sunderthefirmament:

I googled it for you.  Here's a deeplink in a YouTube video.

There is no animation canceling, he talks about animation caneling from heavy attacks but shows a heavy slam attack that dosn't has a special animation or a "loadingtime" like the heavy attack. Or does he mean the jump with animation canceling?

[sunderthefirmament]

Just now, LuckyNecro said:

There is no animation canceling, he talks about animation caneling from heavy attacks but shows a heavy slam attack that dosn't has a special animation or a "loadingtime" like the heavy attack. Or does he mean the jump with animation canceling?

I think that Wukong and Cloudwalker are largely favored for getting right back into the air after a slam as opposed to waiting for the slam attack recovery animation to finish and then jumping.

 

Although I don't use slamkong, I do use melee slams quite a bit.  For mobility, not for damage.  And when I'm focused on mobility, I will almost always cancel the recovery animation of a slam attack, typically with a shift roll.  Sometimes, I roll before I hit the ground, preventing the slam entirely.  It still does what I need it to do in that it gets me to a downward destination faster than falling.  I think slamkongs cancel the slam recovery with Cloudwalker, which allows them to immediately start moving, gain elevation, and then slam again.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

Black List: Slamkong is finally gone. Dive into a world of dark sci-fi, where Slamkongs journey doesn't take you through breathtaking empty tilesets without any battles with terrified foes. Veil the Slamkong and grind for your loot. Available when, DE?

Edited August 25 by (XBOX)CaligulaTwily