The Community Has Viver Fever, And The Only Cure Is...

[FATEdPondera]

I won't lie. I've participated in a Viver farm. Levelled my Limbo up to 30 in one night, forma'd him, and 30 again before noon the next day. I also participated in ODD farms with heavy explosive weapons, such as the Angstrum, and the Orgis, and we all know what happened to those.

 

The state of Viver has reached a boiling point of obsession within the community. Every time a hotfix is announced, I've seen nearly a dozen people asking "IS VIVER OKAY?!". Every time this is mentioned, DE puts another thought toward the situation. Like it or not, things ARE going to change. However, as our benefactors in the development pool tend to lend an ear toward the community, we can try and shape the change that will occur. I've got some ideas, and I'll go through them in order of best to worst.

 

1) New map for Viver. Something MUCH larger. Like the dam map on Cerberus. THAT's how you do it. I personally love that map, and I LIKE grinding for T4 keys. It gives the mission a goal, something to work for, as opposed to just spamming 4 all the time, or keeping your team mates locked in the rift like I was doing on last night's Viver farm .

 

2) Make powers no longer go through walls. Now this does kind of make sense. Look at Mag's crush. She has to wrap an enemy in magnetism, magnetize their bones, and attract them toward each other for damage to occur. This isn't' a cudgel. It's a scalpel. So why does it work on enemies she can't see? Excalibur's radial javelin is more of a spray and pray weapon, but the environment SHOULD stop it.

 

3) Change the reputation gain system to no longer work on affinity, but instead, number of rounds/waves/time survived. It's a pretty common idea that, when you're farming for one thing, you should pick a place that lets you farm for another as well. Plastids and T4 keys on Cerberus, Gallium and Plastids on Uranus, Salvage, Neural Sensors, and Stalker Marks kicking in Alad V's face. That being said, while farming for rep, you should also be able to pick up T4 keys. Say, 350 rep per round? That's a little over 1000 in 4 rounds, and you've got yourself a nice shiny key to use. Now, this idea also flows into my next idea...

 

4) Give the higher level sigils a reputation multiplier. Something minor, but noticable. All they really are right now are things that look nice, and that pales in comparison to the usefulness of picking up a 5 pack of keys, the large health/ammo/energy blueprint, or the weapon/ability mods. I've seen people with different sigils that the stock ones, but I can count them on one hand (consider how many fingers Tenno have left after spending time with the Orgis) Besides, if you opt to grab one of these, and you're not at rep rank 5, you've just sent yourself back several hours in Viver farm time, or a whole day anywhere else.

 

Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I stuck this in general discussion instead of fan concepts because, honestly, this is something for the community. When we get the specifics on how best to deal with Viver Fever down, I'll make another thread summing all this up there.

Edited November 11, 2014 by FATEdPondera

[[DE]Rebecca]

This is a really constructive and well thought out post, thanks for contributing.

[S7ORM]

I like the ideas, but I only have one issue. 350 per wave/round is too much.

Defense missions I do normall don't go shorter than 20 waves. That would be 7000 rep, in about 30-45 minutes.
The factions are supposed to be a longer game plan, and especially if you want a multiplier on the sigils, the per round rewards has to be lower.

Perhaps it could be some form of per wave/round/minute modified by node difficulty (i.e., the starting level of enemies in that mission) so that we dont just move everyone down to Apollodorus?

 

This is a really constructive and well thought out post, thanks for contributing.

[DE] senpai noticed him!

Edited November 11, 2014 by S7ORM

[vaugahn]

2) Make powers no longer go through walls. Now this does kind of make sense. Look at Mag's crush. She has to wrap an enemy in magnetism, magnetize their bones, and attract them toward each other for damage to occur. This isn't' a cudgel. It's a scalpel. So why does it work on enemies she can't see? Excalibur's radial javelin is more of a spray and pray weapon, but the environment SHOULD stop it.

 

They tried that, everyone hated it. IIRC there were even people saying LoS would kill the game.

 

Personally, I think it's the best solution. It encourages players to actually get into combat with opponents.

[TrinityPrime]

2) Make powers no longer go through walls. Now this does kind of make sense. Look at Mag's crush. She has to wrap an enemy in magnetism, magnetize their bones, and attract them toward each other for damage to occur. This isn't' a cudgel. It's a scalpel. So why does it work on enemies she can't see? Excalibur's radial javelin is more of a spray and pray weapon, but the environment SHOULD stop it.

 

Mag Shield Polarize and Crush, Excal Radial Javelin, Oberon Reckoning, and of course since this will most likely be on Wednesday!: Nerf Trinity Energy Vampire!

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

The suggested 350 rep per round is too huge of a nerf.  Playing in a group with randoms and normally capturing all towers I'm usually scoring 2000 rep per 4 rounds.  I know you're trying to stop the 20k runs, but don't nerf it to lower than what people are currently getting by playing normally.

Edited November 11, 2014 by sushidubya

[FATEdPondera]

I like the ideas, but I only have one issue. 350 per wave/round is too much.

 

Granted, but that was just a place holder. The way things are now, outside of Viver, the reputation gains are too slow. It takes nearly a day's work to afford much of anything, and WAY too long to become promoted.

 

This is a really constructive and well thought out post, thanks for contributing.

 

The Lotus herself noticed my thread....and praised it! This just made my week.

 

I posted earlier here in this thread and S7ORM mentioned it too, but the suggested 350 rep per wave is too huge of a nerf.  Playing in a group with randoms and normally capturing all towers I'm usually scoring 2000 rep per 4 rounds.  I know you're trying to stop the 20k runs, but don't nerf it to lower than what people are currently getting by playing normally.

 

oh...um... huh... like I said, I just used 350 per round as a place holder. The number that is proper will be revealed through proper playtesting. I just feel that making on a per round/survival time survived will encourage people to push their limits and really go above and beyond. Maybe give more points in an ascending scale? I mean, when is the last time you heard of someone going to round 8 in an interception match and getting 2 T4 keys? That just isn't done. It might if rounds 6,7,and 8 give 1k rep each.

[ValhaHazred]

They tried that, everyone hated it. IIRC there were even people saying LoS would kill the game.

 

Personally, I think it's the best solution. It encourages players to actually get into combat with opponents.

 

Did they? I don't remember that.

 

I'm personally fine with LoS on powers, as long as it is across the board and leaves some provision for hitting over cover.

[-CM-Tiffany]

No.

 

The only cure for the Viver fever...

 

 

...is more cowbell.

[Flamingfighter]

 Say, 350 rep per round?

This encourages Leaving at first opportunity to just reap easy 350s.

[TrinityPrime]

I mean really though:

 

No need for review. They've created a grind and we're grinding.

 

 

Are they gonna nerf every rep farming tactic players come up with until there's nothing they can really do but wait for syndicate alerts?

[FATEdPondera]

This encourages Leaving at first opportunity to just reap easy 350s.

 

maybe something like.....

 

round 1: 350

round 2: 500

Round 3: 700.

Round 4: 750, and key.

Round 5: 900.

Round 6: 1000

Round 7: 1000

Round 8: 1000

 

Similarly, that's 40 minutes in survival, and just as many waves in defense. Again, just throwing out numbers.

[FATEdPondera]

I mean really though:

 

Are they gonna nerf every rep farming tactic players come up with until there's nothing they can really do but wait for syndicate alerts?

 

Only tactics where you can stand around and hit the same button over and over and over again, and are rewarded for this. I hated it when it was done in ODD with launchers, and I'm already sick of Viver runs. I'd do ANYTHING else than do that again, regardless of rewards.

 

Whoops. Messed up with the edit. Meant to combine my last two posts.

Edited November 11, 2014 by FATEdPondera

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

maybe something like.....

 

round 1: 350

round 2: 500

Round 3: 700.

Round 4: 750, and key.

Round 5: 900.

Round 6: 1000

Round 7: 1000

Round 8: 1000

 

Similarly, that's 40 minutes in survival, and just as many waves in defense. Again, just throwing out numbers.

 

That ends up to being around 6200 rep per 8 rounds and I'm sure round 8 will be quite challenging (justifying the reward.)

 

That looks much better to me.

[ValhaHazred]

I just got the pun in the title. Dang it OP!

[Drazhar14]

I just want to say that I also love that Corpus dam map. Interception there would be great! 

[Anatolius]

Dang I was just making a post with some of these points

beat me to the punch

 

I like the ideas, but I only have one issue. 350 per wave/round is too much.

Defense missions I do normall don't go shorter than 20 waves. That would be 7000 rep, in about 30-45 minutes.
The factions are supposed to be a longer game plan, and especially if you want a multiplier on the sigils, the per round rewards has to be lower.

Perhaps it could be some form of per wave/round/minute modified by node difficulty (i.e., the starting level of enemies in that mission) so that we dont just move everyone down to Apollodorus?

 

[DE] senpai noticed him!

in combination with this

I feel it would be the way to fix the problem

[Gigatron-Prime]

If everyone is rushing to some make use of an exploit it's because they're sick of the daily farm and the community is constantly looking for ways to alleviate that. It's not an issue with Viver but the game's experience and reputation grind and we need to focus on those mechanics we slog through daily instead of one planet.

[Kthal]

maybe something like.....

 

round 1: 350

round 2: 500

Round 3: 700.

Round 4: 750, and key.

Round 5: 900.

Round 6: 1000

Round 7: 1000

Round 8: 1000

 

Similarly, that's 40 minutes in survival, and just as many waves in defense. Again, just throwing out numbers.

 

This is the way to go, although I would suggest having the rep scale based on enemy level.

 

8-12 (in that range) times the average enemy level, per round/5 waves/5 minutes bonus, with a slightly higher multiplier on non-endless missions (only slightly as they have a higher starting enemy level).

[Sebastianx]

I like #3, that's a good idea, and it would be even better if you'd get more per round the further in the mission you are, Wave 10 would reward much more than wave 1 for example.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Only tactics where you can stand around and hit the same button over and over and over again, and are rewarded for this. I hated it when it was done in ODD with launchers, and I'm already sick of Viver runs. I'd do ANYTHING else than do that again, regardless of rewards.

 

Whoops. Messed up with the edit. Meant to combine my last two posts.

 

Nobody's forcing you to play Viver, so why are you trying to ruin things for people who don't have time to spend months or years grinding rep through normal missions? 

 

Seriously. Viver is fine as it is. DE already nerfed it once by moving the towers, it doesn't need another nerf. Right now, the expected sacrifice of time and rare items (potatos) for syndicates is way out of whack with the rewards - it's simply not worth it for anyone who doesn't really like the affected weapons/frames or the sigils they're offering. The viver farm is the only way to make the amazingly bad rewards for syndicates tolerable.

 

And I say this as someone who has only done Viver once. :|

Edited November 11, 2014 by Cpl_Facehugger

[sekushiiandee]

 

Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I stuck this in general discussion instead of fan concepts because, honestly, this is something for the community. When we get the specifics on how best to deal with Viver Fever down, I'll make another thread summing all this up there.

 

^ my problem is here you are trying to take away choice from players....they do have the choice in whether or not they want to farm on viver...they do have a choice whether or not they want to have fun player the way they play....not to mention in order to efficiently and effectively farm viver you must be well modded and geared...it takes a lot of time and skill to get to the point where mag or excal prime is able to destroy the map...and sorry to say but a lot of these players including myself have been a lot of time in order to make ourselves this powerful.  so now i hear that you dont want to give me the choice of player my frames the way i want them to? doesnt work with me here

 

"1) New map for Viver. Something MUCH larger. Like the dam map on Cerberus. THAT's how you do it. I personally love that map, and I LIKE grinding for T4 keys. It gives the mission a goal, something to work for, as opposed to just spamming 4 all the time, or keeping your team mates locked in the rift like I was doing on last night's Viver farm ."

 

^ this wont exactly alleviate the issue of syndicate and reputation farming. just an fyi, a lot of people hate the cerberus map because it is so large....you are forced to be separated from your team members and only operate at each station because if you move just for a split second....the spawns locations will change and they will swarm the tower, but if that is how you like to play your interception missions then so be it. no one is stopping you from doing that.  from many peoples opinions, it is difficult and it is a lot of work for players.  this also limits frame usage as well, since players have to solo the towers on their own....they decrease the variety of frames being used within the missions to frames that have higher CC usage or have higher survivability.  youll never really see a mag successfully defend 1 tower in cerberus unless that mag has super geared weapons....even then....the mobs hit so hard that she would melt regardless

 

"2) Make powers no longer go through walls. Now this does kind of make sense. Look at Mag's crush. She has to wrap an enemy in magnetism, magnetize their bones, and attract them toward each other for damage to occur. This isn't' a cudgel. It's a scalpel. So why does it work on enemies she can't see? Excalibur's radial javelin is more of a spray and pray weapon, but the environment SHOULD stop it."

 

^ too much backlash, too many problems players will have with the game....also there are many people who will quit...so if you can live with the fact that you hinder the player base of this game because you believe that LoS matters...then so be it

      ^ it is a very hard assumption....but i would assume with the technology and abilities of the warframes....it is possible that nano tech or even void tech is able to surpass walls..... or even objects....if not then we are very very underpowered beings who become useless with a box standing between us and an enemy.......and would you like to be the person programming this new LoS workthrough as well? there are a lot of things to consider....the angle of the player....where the ability was cast....what kind of ability was cast (i.e. radial blind vs prism blind)...this like that....dont get me wrong it is possible to add this to the game....but it is very very inconvenient to players and really shows that warframes are very limited beings/technology

 

3) Change the reputation gain system to no longer work on affinity, but instead, number of rounds/waves/time survived. It's a pretty common idea that, when you're farming for one thing, you should pick a place that lets you farm for another as well. Plastids and T4 keys on Cerberus, Gallium and Plastids on Uranus, Salvage, Neural Sensors, and Stalker Marks kicking in Alad V's face. That being said, while farming for rep, you should also be able to pick up T4 keys. Say, 350 rep per round? That's a little over 1000 in 4 rounds, and you've got yourself a nice shiny key to use. Now, this idea also flows into my next idea...

 

^ will you also complain about people who do speed runs with speed nova after this is implemented? will that be called an exploit as well?....disarming, speed molecu...and vortex? is that too exploitive for you? because at that same point people will be standing around spamming team oriented spells...the difference is they will be using weapons to kill mobs

 

     ^ but anyway i do like the idea if there was a way to refine syndicate costs and make it balance with reputation gain from these rewards

 

"4) Give the higher level sigils a reputation multiplier. Something minor, but noticable. All they really are right now are things that look nice, and that pales in comparison to the usefulness of picking up a 5 pack of keys, the large health/ammo/energy blueprint, or the weapon/ability mods. I've seen people with different sigils that the stock ones, but I can count them on one hand (consider how many fingers Tenno have left after spending time with the Orgis) Besides, if you opt to grab one of these, and you're not at rep rank 5, you've just sent yourself back several hours in Viver farm time, or a whole day anywhere else."

 

^i will agree with this point because right now reputation need to advance in titles is ridiculous compared to the amount of time it takes in order to farm for reputation

                -with a fully developed team it takes 40 mins to farm for 3.5k reputation on average on viver, eris without a resource booster for one round....you need about 240k reputation to reach the maximum title of ONE and only ONE syndicate...that is roughtl 78-80 hours of gameplay alone that only involves farming at viver, eris with the method that ppl use (mag, excal, trin/limbo, x-warframe)...this calculation does not include the reputation cost of the mods and time that the mods take in order to acquire

 

^making higher sigils have a reputation multiplier would be great....but i would not agree with you when you say it should be minor....the cost in order to acquire a new sigil is already very high compared to what you actually gain from missions....there needs to be a balance that does not turn into a time sink for players

 

 

 

there are no specific ways to deal with viver, eris because if DE does anything that is related to nerfing viver, eris...it will ultimately and unintentionally nerf a key part of hte game....

 

what has currently been nerfed is the mod drops that are allowed to be on simultaneously....i like the idea but i hate the amount....50 mods is too low

 

especially when you have common mods flooding the drop tables and dropping like candy....when you have idiots who dont work with the team and just have mods laying everywhere....50 mods is EXTREMELY low.....that is definitely a slap in the face to me right now...

 

150 mods may have been reasonable but at the same time.....putting a cap to mods being on the floor simultaneous is and will always be a bad choice because you are not just hurting those who farm viver, eris but potentially the whole game (i.e. def missions, survivals, other interceptions, etc.)

Edited November 11, 2014 by sekushiiandee

[TrinityPrime]

[size=2]Excuse my argumentively arbitrary and capriciousnessness but I like this other thread better.[/size]

Edited November 11, 2014 by KnotOfMetal

[Zeromanicus]

I won't lie. I've participated in a Viver farm. Levelled my Limbo up to 30 in one night, forma'd him, and 30 again before noon the next day. I also participated in ODD farms with heavy explosive weapons, such as the Angstrum, and the Orgis, and we all know what happened to those.

 

The state of Viver has reached a boiling point of obsession within the community. Every time a hotfix is announced, I've seen nearly a dozen people asking "IS VIVER OKAY?!". Every time this is mentioned, DE puts another thought toward the situation. Like it or not, things ARE going to change. However, as our benefactors in the development pool tend to lend an ear toward the community, we can try and shape the change that will occur. I've got some ideas, and I'll go through them in order of best to worst.

 

1) New map for Viver. Something MUCH larger. Like the dam map on Cerberus. THAT's how you do it. I personally love that map, and I LIKE grinding for T4 keys. It gives the mission a goal, something to work for, as opposed to just spamming 4 all the time, or keeping your team mates locked in the rift like I was doing on last night's Viver farm .

 

 

 

2) Make powers no longer go through walls. Now this does kind of make sense. Look at Mag's crush. She has to wrap an enemy in magnetism, magnetize their bones, and attract them toward each other for damage to occur. This isn't' a cudgel. It's a scalpel. So why does it work on enemies she can't see? Excalibur's radial javelin is more of a spray and pray weapon, but the environment SHOULD stop it.

 

3) Change the reputation gain system to no longer work on affinity, but instead, number of rounds/waves/time survived. It's a pretty common idea that, when you're farming for one thing, you should pick a place that lets you farm for another as well. Plastids and T4 keys on Cerberus, Gallium and Plastids on Uranus, Salvage, Neural Sensors, and Stalker Marks kicking in Alad V's face. That being said, while farming for rep, you should also be able to pick up T4 keys. Say, 350 rep per round? That's a little over 1000 in 4 rounds, and you've got yourself a nice shiny key to use. Now, this idea also flows into my next idea...

 

4) Give the higher level sigils a reputation multiplier. Something minor, but noticable. All they really are right now are things that look nice, and that pales in comparison to the usefulness of picking up a 5 pack of keys, the large health/ammo/energy blueprint, or the weapon/ability mods. I've seen people with different sigils that the stock ones, but I can count them on one hand (consider how many fingers Tenno have left after spending time with the Orgis) Besides, if you opt to grab one of these, and you're not at rep rank 5, you've just sent yourself back several hours in Viver farm time, or a whole day anywhere else.

 

Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I stuck this in general discussion instead of fan concepts because, honestly, this is something for the community. When we get the specifics on how best to deal with Viver Fever down, I'll make another thread summing all this up there.

 

Only 4 addresses the real issue, the huge grind to get Syndicate points.

 

1) The dam map on Cerberus is horrible to me. Everyone is just isolated and you spend most of your time hurting your sprint key finger. Viver is a relief, a interception map that lets you still stay as a team. It's a co-op game about space magic and shooting, not spending half your time running across huge maps.

 

 

This is where the Excavation missions got it right, you can just concentrate on a few drills at a time or on a single one. Interception discourages teamwork and encourages you all to solo defend isolation towers.

 

2) It's space magic.

 

3) Everyone would all be at mercury grinding that, using speed nova to blast through the waves.

 

 

To me, the problem is the Syndicate system, not Viver. Viver has to of been around for ages, and has only become a issue to people since reputation. Syndicate is suppose to be long-term but people cannot think like that. It takes ages to even get to the first set of rewards.

 

Anyone, it's time for some Viver.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Zeromanicus

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

While I think you pointed out Viver issue and suggested some good "fixes", I'd rather DE focus on the whole reputation system instead of hurring to stop this exploit.

Changing Viver only will just lead us to find another mission to grind with same or close enough rewards, unless the reputation system is reworked a bit.

 

As I said, I'd rather play another 100 hours to max one Syndicate made of alerts with growing difficulty=growing rewards instead of being "forced" to do Viver since no other mission in the whole game provides a reasonable amount of points.

 

Daily alerts were a great chance to me(I remember mentioning melee only missions, challenging ones and stuff like that), but what we have now is way far from it, we only have a huge, huge grind wall with poor ways to climb it, except for Viver.

 

Can't wait to leave Viver if funny and challenging ways to earn points are provided....

Edited November 11, 2014 by siralextraffo