Homage Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) 1) Warframe 2) Archwing 3) PvP *arcade games I'll be playing Warframe till the servers go down, though my friends could care less about Warframe. The game looks great artistically the problem is gameplay quality. One shot O rama, press 4 to win, archwing melee spam. The myriad of game modes are saturated with the so-so quality of gameplay design. It is clear rather than taking on the tuff and boring problems DE have decided to make more of the same. This does not improve the experience. It will not grow the game. You guys are treading water. And that makes me sad. Not recognizing the evident mistakes and flaws, not learning from the past, and shedding the things that hold it back will bleed Warframe out. The game won't die from a single wrong decision, in an epic fire ball. It will bleed out slowly, emaciated, crippled, forgotten. The weight of a 1,000 cut corners, ruff tie ups, exhausting it and the people who care about it. Now is the time to prevent such an end! Before the mediocrity caches up to it. You guys can break through to a better level of gameplay! But you need to focus. Edited March 16, 2015 by Homage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Brennon Cook Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Don't forget about the og flappy zephyr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sziklamester Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Wyrmius, flappy zephyr, grindwing, warswag, piu piu piu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM-Bunny Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I do agree with your viewpoint, OP, but at least recognize that the upcoming PVP overhaul is the devs really trying to turn the mediocre game-mode into something presentable. Therefore, the foundation of your argument, that they do not re-view their previous endeavours, is challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IfritKajiTora Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Gameplay quality is sh*t, because even if you are a master player, you still get damage, because in this game you can't avoid all bullets etc which is stupid.I hate games where you can't beat something at perfect because this is how game is maded. Just like Diablo games, there are no guard and no dodges only EQ, Lvl and Builds can help you, if you cant beat something your EQ, lvl are weak or your build is bad, not because you dont have skill, only because of stupid Numbers.Devil May Cry seriesNinja Gaiden seriesDark MessiahThese are games where you can beat everything on perfect if you are a very good player at this and you are concentrated. Defense,dodges control and good attack timing. Edited March 16, 2015 by IfritKajiTora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llyssa Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) 1: there's a massive update coming in like 3 days. 2: by the statistics, the game has been gaining players constantly, with considerable growth month after month. You can't really consider "constant growth" a "slow death". EDIT: 3: Giving vague, abstract, subjective notions is completely useless. If you have specific thoughts, go for it. However, things like "The weight of a 1,000 cut corners" is mediocre poetic flare, not meaningful feedback. Edited March 16, 2015 by Llyssa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKhaun Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Archwing only seems separate because they rushed it out without proper transitions. It was originally supposed to mesh with regular gameplay. Both the upcoming J3 fight (Archwing with WF gameplay inside the boss) and the upcoming underwater tileset (WF gameplay with Sharkwing sections under the water) seem to imply a promise that the game is coming full circle back to transitions between regular WF and regular Archwing sections. If they both go well I'm sure we'll see regular missions start melding with space a lot better and a lot more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAvICoreZ Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 No matter what the game produces or innovates or whatever integrates... this game is insanly UNIQUE, FUN AND IS JUST THE BEGINNING!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letir Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I'm agree, especially with "gameplay" and "game modes" part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
direcyphre Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Yet another person who believes there are only a handful of people working on Warframe as a whole, as opposed to the entirety of a game development team with fully delegated responsibilities in its continuous advancement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-FV-Metheria Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Gameplay quality is sh*t, because even if you are a master player, you still get damage, because in this game you can't avoid all bullets etc which is stupid. I hate games where you can't beat something at perfect because this is how game is maded. Just like Diablo games, there are no guard and no dodges only EQ, Lvl and Builds can help you, if you cant beat something your EQ, lvl are weak or your build is bad, not because you dont have skill, only because of stupid Numbers. Devil May Cry series Ninja Gaiden series Dark Messiah These are games where you can beat everything on perfect if you are a very good player at this and you are concentrated. Defense,dodges control and good attack timing. Yes, ignore the fact we have shields which protect the health that can't regenerate normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nekrojiji Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) 1) Warframe 2) Archwing 3) PvP *arcade games I'll be playing Warframe till the servers go down, though my friends could care less about Warframe. The game looks great artistically the problem is gameplay quality. One shot O rama, press 4 to win, archwing melee spam. The myriad of game modes are saturated with the so-so quality of gameplay design. It is clear rather than taking on the tuff and boring problems DE have decided to make more of the same. This does not improve the experience. It will not grow the game. You guys are treading water. And that makes me sad. Not recognizing the evident mistakes and flaws, not learning from the past, and shedding the things that hold it back will bleed Warframe out. The game won't die from a single wrong decision, in an epic fire ball. It will bleed out slowly, emaciated, crippled, forgotten. The weight of a 1,000 cut corners, ruff tie ups, exhausting it and the people who care about it. Now is the time to prevent such an end! Before the mediocrity caches up to it. You guys can break through to a better level of gameplay! But you need to focus. I agree with you ..... I have played this game since the change from U6 to U7 and it always changed in a good way (except for the curent PvP.... that sucks)..... I'm hoping that what the devs continuously say on the stream will sometime be put into the game - Missions to link normal mode and archwing mode and the PvP sindicate rewards - I can't wait for the lore on Simeris.... giving that I heard something about a group of tenno that opose the Lotus I still hold my hopes up! Edited March 16, 2015 by nekrojiji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homage Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 1: there's a massive update coming in like 3 days. 2: by the statistics, the game has been gaining players constantly, with considerable growth month after month. You can't really consider "constant growth" a "slow death". EDIT: 3: Giving vague, abstract, subjective notions is completely useless. If you have specific thoughts, go for it. However, things like "The weight of a 1,000 cut corners" is mediocre poetic flare, not meaningful feedback. Digital Extreams artical "Building Warframe: Warframes, mods and weapons in pvp 2.0" (https://warframe.com/news/building-warframe-warframes-mods-and-weapons-pvp-20) mentions restrictinig mods and pvp mods. This means PvP will exist in its own bubble effectively making it its own game. I get why they did it, to reduce variables. And just like in math simplifying an equation can make it easier to solve. But in this case dividing the game into smaller games is not a solution, but a symptom of the underlying problem. Poor ability and mod design. It needs to be addressed before more content piles up on this already cracking foundation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntpuffer Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) - Edited March 16, 2015 by bluntpuffer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious_Raptor Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Digital Extreams artical "Building Warframe: Warframes, mods and weapons in pvp 2.0" (https://warframe.com/news/building-warframe-warframes-mods-and-weapons-pvp-20) mentions restrictinig mods and pvp mods. This means PvP will exist in its own bubble effectively making it its own game. I get why they did it, to reduce variables. And just like in math simplifying an equation can make it easier to solve. But in this case dividing the game into smaller games is not a solution, but a symptom of the underlying problem. Poor ability and mod design. It needs to be addressed before more content piles up on this already cracking foundation.[/size] They are removing some mods but adding more pvp specific mods, in case you missed that part. They're not reducing variability, they're trying to increase it (Handspring in a build? Where have you ever seen it?!) and to balance the game. I, like many others, love what the devs are coming up with, especially for PVP, as it's gonna be fun, rewarding and, most of all, balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk_of_the_Reborn Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Gameplay quality is sh*t, because even if you are a master player, you still get damage, because in this game you can't avoid all bullets etc which is stupid. Have you heard of Limbo? With that, you can dodge reality itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwya Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Poor ability and mod design. It needs to be addressed before more content piles up on this already cracking foundation.[/size](And something by IfritKajiTora, sorry I fail at quoting)TLDR: too late. des already done that, its gonn be tough to u turn be it for de or for older players. Maybe u should try to incorporate more skills in ur own gameplay? Doesn't work BY ITSELF =/= redundant. For the rng part, just pray hard. Tldr end One of their original ideals was that every weapon and frame be equal in weight, differing only in playing styles (I.e. rhino as a "credit to team" tank, sicarus as a heavy burst pistol etc). Not impossible - TF2 demonstrated that by using stat changes on the same root weapon to fit different styles (I.e. degreaser vs backburner - sorry for those without context knowledge. (GENERALIZATION ALERT) But the possible impetus of the current problems would be that it is MPVE - you're fighting hordes of dumbed down enemies, not (potentially) skilful opponents. Which means that progression is easily done by advancing ur equipment to fight enemies that consume more and more steroids, since it's difficult to constantly produce novel enemies and situations as compared to more dynamic PVP battlegrounds. (This comes only from personal experience, so please give counter examples/ cases in a civilized manner. Neither me nor the forum community enjoys toxicity) Which leads to the problems OP pointed out - since the best way to keep players is to introduce content that requires effort, older players have the benefit of prior experience and playtime to help them, newer players end up swamped by content to grind, and p2p players end up confused even with good equips. The privileged storm through new content, new/ disadvantaged/ etc players follow their example to catch up and viola. Thus, press 4 to win/ pew pew to win. Consequentially, revamping warframe to suit skill-based progression isn't feasible imo. Even if DE can introduce new skill-based content quickly enough without bugs, there's gonna be an outroar. Effort-/Time-/Money-resultant benefits are just gonna get thrown out the window, if not gradually then suddenly. People are gonna lose looaads of stuff, and ur gonna have only so little players left. Older players should remember the reactions when dmg 2.0 demolished acrid and flux and etc (for newer players: they're THE god-tier weapons of the past) Conclusion: Even if a sizeable portion of the community wants skill based gameplay to take precedence, either DE is gonna work their &#! off to deliver too little "more skills needed" content too slowly, or we're gonna lose so many players Warframe becomes single player. I'd support the idea if the result doesnt become that baf, or create a separate caste system based on skills rather than equipment. Suggestion: a bottom-up approach. Grinding is too hard? Get ur friends, fraternity, whatever. Grind comfortably. Enjoy the process, not the end. If its just impossible to enjoy the grinding, do u really need to get that scindo prime or soma prime? Too much "press 4/ pew pew to win"? Try incorporating skills in ur own gameplay. Strafe through corpus shots to feed them shotgun rounds, or outwit that scorch with your pistol. If enemy power creeping is restricting skill gameplay and thus enjoyment, then go to a friendlier area. The common point is the presence of a non-toxic, helpful community: once that is present, the game becomes that much easier to enjoy. Of course, the assumption that players already have a baseline variety of quality mods/ equips (I.e. vitality vs tranquil fortitude) is in effect- coz if they dont, they have forementioned helpful community to help out. (GENERALIZATION ALERT) Skills alone are not enough to progress against tougher levels - which I dont find a problem here. If u were to adopt a hardlined approach of "MLG360NoScope only or gtfo" then I believe other games (I.e. those IfritKajiTora listed) would be better for u. Call that dissing, but if you really dont want to play warframe because content- based progression is still inevitable, do you need to prolong ur dissatisfaction for a game? But just as wealth should neither be ignored nor be the sole reason for living, content progression doesnt need to be the be-all-end-all. A healthy blend of both would be ideal, even if the goldilocks zone is vague. EDIT: changed "tf2" to "those IfritKajiTora listed" Edited March 16, 2015 by jwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)WetPollito Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 i love this game, and i love every update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egregiousRac Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 -snip- DE has two problems, which go hand in hand: 1) Rushing content out the door - Their business model relies on getting as much content to the players as fast as possible. This means reducing the complexity of designs to get things out on time. 2) A complete aversion to maths - This is where the issues started. They just throw random numbers on things that sound right and call it a day. This is how we got the Soma, a weapon with terrible base damage that is ridiculously powerful, because without multiplying the numbers out it sounded reasonable. Once we had things like that, attempting to make weapons of similar power has given even more ridiculous guns. DE never seems to really look at the big scope. Before Damage 2.0, for example, many of the better weapons had pretty bad stats, but ignored armor or had stacking DoT. DE took away the things that made these weapons great, but left their stats bad, turning peoples favourite guns into worthless fodder. When they make a major system change they need to go back and fix the rest of the content to work with it, but they don't because they want to get it out as quickly as possible. I don't think that rebalancing all of the content to have less of a power curve would lose too many players, but it would take more time than they seem to want to spend. This means that the game will never actually be in a state that feels well designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkmoone1 Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I'd agree with you if the 3 modes were left alone, but fact of the matter is that: 1) PvP is getting overhauled so it's level of quality is unknown. 2) Archwing was released as a bare-bones mode on purpose with improvements, changes, and addition being added in time.3) Regular mode has seen better days since it was first playable(More tile-sets, more enemy variation, additional weapon variation, Melee 2.0, etc etc.) The only real problem I see from what you list in the post is warframe "press 4 to win" and even then it does not destroy the regular mode as much as you would expect it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noble_Cactus Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Correct. It's gone from one mediocre game, to three mediocre games. And I like arcade games :( Yet another person who believes there are only a handful of people working on Warframe as a whole, as opposed to the entirety of a game development team with fully delegated responsibilities in its continuous advancement. Has the WF team ever revealed who specifically works on what, outside of its figureheads like Scott and Co.? From what I understand, the teams working on these projects are actually quite small. I feel sorry for them if so. Edited March 16, 2015 by Noble_Cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugahn Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 It's not like PvP is something new. PvP has been around for ages, it's just been terrible. Doesn't the fact that they're putting in effort to make those things you listed not terrible kind of nullify your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindle99 Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) 1) Warframe 2) Archwing 3) PvP *arcade games I'll be playing Warframe till the servers go down, though my friends could care less about Warframe. The game looks great artistically the problem is gameplay quality. One shot O rama, press 4 to win, archwing melee spam. The myriad of game modes are saturated with the so-so quality of gameplay design. It is clear rather than taking on the tuff and boring problems DE have decided to make more of the same. This does not improve the experience. It will not grow the game. You guys are treading water. And that makes me sad. Not recognizing the evident mistakes and flaws, not learning from the past, and shedding the things that hold it back will bleed Warframe out. The game won't die from a single wrong decision, in an epic fire ball. It will bleed out slowly, emaciated, crippled, forgotten. The weight of a 1,000 cut corners, ruff tie ups, exhausting it and the people who care about it. Now is the time to prevent such an end! Before the mediocrity caches up to it. You guys can break through to a better level of gameplay! But you need to focus. I think you're too close to the game to realise every single game that exists has big issues people complain about, none are perfect and also variety isn't a bad thing. Compared to most any other game this one is pretty high on the scale, it is one of the better titles. You agree with that or you would not be here. If it didnt' have archwing and pvp you or someone else would complain abotu lack of variety or whatever else. I personally like Archwing (i needs a lot of work but the base of it is good). Also you gotta keep in mind that they have different teams working on each part of the game. They have an archwing team, a pvp team, a raid team etc I've played a mountain of online games long-term and they all have players like you spouting these same kinds of arguments (different issues but same idea). Edited March 16, 2015 by Spindle99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gelkor Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 It's not like PvP is something new. PvP has been around for ages, it's just been terrible. Doesn't the fact that they're putting in effort to make those things you listed not terrible kind of nullify your point? It's kinda amusing the amount of people who have been posting recently complaining about "OMG they are gonna make PVP now and it's gonna ruin the game." Completely unaware that we've had PVP for quite some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockscl Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) xD, let me be fair here, and highlight what is good from warframe gameplay. Archwing is very enjoyable at least to me, i dont think its mediocre, i just think it needs more mission modes and nodes, i even feel like DE has applied there all his learnings about making balanced stuff As for normal missions, pick some semi ranked, potentially powerful arsenal, get it to some t3 mission, and voila, you have a great experience, why?, mainly because p42w is not an option, now, with this environment in mind: - the shooter/rpg mechanics and the bottle necks are great experiences - team work is right there, you and your teammates need each other for a lot more than spamming radials, i even find pressing number 1 a need in these missions! - parkour can actually save my arse - the environment is important, its more than a box where i must find the center and press 4 - each enemy has a meaning that is not obscured by a huge radial skill making them just numbers raising far in the other side of the map - etc Edited March 16, 2015 by rockscl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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