Blind Behaviors

[(PSN)D-onlinekilla-4D]

I was playing my fresh Xbox One account last weekend and I finally figured out what it was about Radial Blind that I found so odd: after being blinded the enemies would still run around and navigate the environment. As a console-casual I found this particularly frustrating because it makes the enemies harder to hit.

 

I discussed this with the design guys on Monday and I agreed to do what should have been a 15 minute job: make blinded enemies stop running to cover if they're blind (ie: stop and shoot wildly instead). Unfortunately once I started looking at the behaviour of blind enemies I noticed more things I couldn't ignore. Between other tasks I made a few more changes today to make blinded enemies a little bit more interesting:

 

 

In the next update:

 

- blind enemies will no longer run to cover (miraculously maneuvering around obstacles)

- blind enemies will no longer lob grenades with pin-point accuracy (for now they will not throw grenades at all; safety first)

- blind enemies will forget about the all-consuming desire to run to the defense pod no matter how badly they want stand next to it and kiss it

- blind enemies will attack nearby targets using sounds to guide where they think the enemy is

- blind enemies will fire weapons without regard for friendly units that may be in the way (sadly no team-damage, though)

Awesome stuff, can't wait for this to be implemented (PS4) +1

[Varpulis]

Will this also be applied to Mirage's prism blind?

[Monolake]

I was playing my fresh Xbox One account last weekend and I finally figured out what it was about Radial Blind that I found so odd: after being blinded the enemies would still run around and navigate the environment. As a console-casual I found this particularly frustrating because it makes the enemies harder to hit.

 

I discussed this with the design guys on Monday and I agreed to do what should have been a 15 minute job: make blinded enemies stop running to cover if they're blind (ie: stop and shoot wildly instead). Unfortunately once I started looking at the behaviour of blind enemies I noticed more things I couldn't ignore. Between other tasks I made a few more changes today to make blinded enemies a little bit more interesting:

 

...

 

In the next update:

 

- blind enemies will no longer run to cover (miraculously maneuvering around obstacles)

- blind enemies will no longer lob grenades with pin-point accuracy (for now they will not throw grenades at all; safety first)

- blind enemies will forget about the all-consuming desire to run to the defense pod no matter how badly they want stand next to it and kiss it

- blind enemies will attack nearby targets using sounds to guide where they think the enemy is

- blind enemies will fire weapons without regard for friendly units that may be in the way (sadly no team-damage, though)

 

Yay! Finally some one who actually plays the game is implementing gameplay changes.  Blind grenades sniping  been the bane of highlevel missions for a long time. 

Could you also look into heavies knockdowns overriding player actions and abilities? And stop bombards from hurting through the walls/floors, considering they already have homing attacks.

Or better oblige AI guys to play the game at high levels. 

Edited May 10, 2015 by Monolake

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Will Blind + Banshee's Silence leave enemies completely incapacitated?

[mishmashmarsh]

No bullets>bullets

 

Grenades aren't even thrown that often during radial blind.

 

It's definitely a nerf, don't try and sugar coat it. It may be a necessary one, but it's still a nerf.

 

Thank you :) at least someone is actually making sense of this.

[Evanescent]

Why don't people realise this is Just like how Loki's invisibility works now......

[UltimateSpinDash]

Why don't people realise this is Just like how Loki's invisibility works now......

^this.

 

Also, don't blinded enemies really don't shoot at all? They only move?

Even then, them being able to shoot with **** accuracy, solely based on their hearing, which is easily bypassed... how about not crying "NERF!" about the tiniest things? How about using a LITTLE bit of thought here?

 

 

Will this also be applied to Mirage's prism blind?

Pretty certain that this applies to all forms of blind. I don't believe that every ability has their own blind state.

 

 

Once again, great work Glen. And I also like how you told us about this in detail and BEFORE it happened. Wish this happened more often.

[Bouldershoulder]

The most confusing part about radial blind for me is why do the enemies have to be aware of me flashing at them in order to get blinded?

When someone flashes in somebodies eyes in darkness, that person usually gets sightless for a period of time.

Line of sight is a reasonable thing for such a power, but awareness is total nonsense.

[Kahruvel]

These are all great changes, but my current concern with Radial Blind is that the Nullifier shield obstructs it, though the shield allows other forms of light to pass through it. While Radial Blind is indeed a Tenno energy ability, the light flash is not.

 

I realize that letting Excalibur blind through the shield would effectively make him a hard counter to the Nullifier, and gameplay considerations must be made. But allowing Excalibur to blind Nulls and Null-protected enemies will make him much more desired toward late game or eventual T5 Defenses, whereupon Mesa/Gmag will cease being the dominant strategy.

[FrostboundFlame]

No offense, but this was the worst problem with Excalibur???

Seriously, first the "look other way" nerf, now this supposedly "buff". Why does the RB matter so much, when there abilities way more powerful or too weak? Especially, why we keep changing RB when players like it as it was.

 

it's not a change to Radial Blind, it's an AI change that coincides with all blinding abilities.

[FrostboundFlame]

But he stated they is no friendly damage, its not gonna be like chaos there not gonna shot each other. He was using small burst of fire not constant fire. I'd like to see how they react to constant fire. Will they be able to plot your exact location while your moving and shooting?

 

Assuming that you're moving and shooting at the same time, enemies will always aim for the sound of the last shot, which, if you're strafing like you should be, will be behind you constantly. the only potential negative is with hitscan projectiles, depending on how fast your gun shoots full-auto and if they're shooting or not at the time.

[FrostboundFlame]

This is the problem. We got an already unreliable power and now, even if it works on the enemy, it allows the enemy a chance to shot us. In exchange the enemy won't run behind cover. If this is not a nerf, what is?

 

because it's not a nerf, they'll stand mostly still, let you line up a good shot, plug a few in the face, and move on. assuming that you're not shooting constantly like an idiot, the chances of them shooting you are actually fairly low.

[zoboso]

seeing it now: new radial blind augment. enemies have the radiation proc applied to them so that the ability causes chaos among the ranks.

[PHOBIE]

Can only say good work, and opens some good directions for possible future design. I think half of the discussion is people dealing with denial issues, and the other half wanting some more candy. Overall, as to what can be expected from forums, I see this as successfully adopted by people. It's also this kind of in depth changing that adds variety and chaos into the ranks of neverending grineer. Next up: Corpus trying to bribe you to spare their lives ;)

[Doomclaaw]

This sounds really good, thanks DE_Glen! I do have one really pressing question though, if enemies are radiation procc'd can their crossfire hurt each other? I'm not asking for the skill itself to proc rad, but say you can proc it with your weapon or an Oberon modded for it, it would make sense that they would damage each other. Also not asking for full on rad confusion type fighting where they blindly shoot at each other, but just so that crossfire will damage while procc'd?

[MichaelSD]

because it's not a nerf, they'll stand mostly still, let you line up a good shot, plug a few in the face, and move on. assuming that you're not shooting constantly like an idiot, the chances of them shooting you are actually fairly low.

 

fairly low >less than fairly low = nerf

 

I rest my case. If DE thought this was the greatest problem with Excalibur.....

[TenguBlade]

fairly low >less than fairly low = nerf

 

I rest my case. If DE thought this was the greatest problem with Excalibur.....

Play a different frame then.

Also, if you're referring to Radial Javelin's nerf, doing a Super Jump and casting it in midair pretty much fixes that problem.  It's becoming Excalibur's 3rd rather than 4th ability anyway, so get used to this solution while it exists.

 

I, for one, am glad to see the realism of Radial Blind's effects on enemies updated.  Great work, guys!

Edited May 11, 2015 by TenguBlade

[MichaelSD]

I play Excalibur because I like it looks and how it was earlier.

 

Try jumping up at high level and you land dead. You can fool around with the "oh be creative" suggestion, but at high levels it won't work.

 

Oh and for those Loki fanboys Radial Blind is way inferior to Invisibility, so having the same mechanic makes absolutely no sense.

[TenguBlade]

I play Excalibur because I like it looks and how it was earlier.

 

Try jumping up at high level and you land dead. You can fool around with the "oh be creative" suggestion, but at high levels it won't work.

 

Oh and for those Loki fanboys Radial Blind is way inferior to Invisibility, so having the same mechanic makes absolutely no sense.

You clearly don't play Excalibur.  Super Jump cloaks you until you hit the ground!

[inariwan]

DE Glen can you PLEASE play test this in a T4 Survival with 40 enemy's in one room when your laying down constant fire there all just gonna kill you it would be pointless using the energy if there gonna no where you are when your shooting.

This^

[PHOBIE]

"DE Glen can you PLEASE play test this in a T4 Survival with 40 enemy's in one room when your laying down constant fire there all just gonna kill you [....]"

 

First: YOU can please test this and then give good feedback, if you wish. Feel free to use proper punctuation, and sentence structure, if you want anyone to respect you, or even conform to your wishes. DEV time is precious. Players are there to test and give the best feedback possible.

 

Second: If you went into a room with 40 people and they shoot weapons, someone is gonna get hurt. Too bad. Things got more real. Live with it.

[DiosGX]

This is going to make Fleeting Mesa with Shooting Gallery's blind augment so rad.

Maybe we'll see her start doing something other than Peacemaker on Defenses, and within actual missions... doing something.

o3o

[Marthrym]

So... Since all these CC become more and more like Chaos (except better)... How about a nice big buff for Nyx? You know, the lady needs love too. Sorely. Just saying...

[SuperheroJack]

My final opinion and conclusion after reading the whole thread and testing it (I am gonna say it once):

1>[DE]Glen saw the problem in a Defense mission -when blinded a)Enemy taking cover b)throwing grenade with pin point accuracy on the pod (not tenno) c) enemies with melee running towards the pod and staying there .

 

 Solution provided :

a)- blind enemies will no longer run to cover (miraculously maneuvering around obstacles)  My opinion √ Ok!

b)- blind enemies will no longer lob grenades with pin-point accuracy (for now they will not throw grenades at all; safety first) √ Ok!

c)- blind enemies will forget about the all-consuming desire to run to the defense pod no matter how badly they want stand next to it and kiss it. √ Ok!

d)- blind enemies will attack nearby targets using sounds to guide where they think the enemy is - x Not Ok ! Why?
Because they are blinded by Radial Blind and that shouldn't suddenly arouse Ninja ability in them ! Realistic is when you are blinded suddenly in the face of war like this , a fear should take over cause you can't see nothing and u don't know where u are anymore - so realism would be you try to run away from where all sort of shooting sound is coming (and you won't fire either cause you never know that might be the ally who is shooting to save you) and finally while doing that they should tumble down when they hit any obstacle on their way !
e)- blind enemies will fire weapons without regard for friendly units that may be in the way (sadly no team-damage, though) - x Not Ok !  
Same reason , you won't want to kill your ally who might be the only hope to save you ! (If you mean to implement better AI realism that is , and I think that's what this post was about).

Now second major issue with this is: It wasn't tested for other mission types ,especially higher level surival ( Ceres -Nuovo 35-38 starting level enemy)

 

So earlier in higher level survival missions , you see a bunch of enemies coming at you, you cast Radial Blind ,pop those head-shots and the personal life support along with it and you are good for couple of more minutes

                                                                                            VS
Now you see the mobs coming , you cast Radial Blind and you even made a slightest sound  , you just killed yourself - isn't that too much of a restriction on a player ,especially Excal which has now become like a punching bag for DE !!

 

I am not talking about vetran players MR 19s who have burnt out playing this (and those are mostly who are saying yes to this change ) and who has OP weapons just to one shoot them or knows every corner of the map ! I am talking about MR 5-8 guys , the new players you are making them feel excal is just useless, who haven't got the chance yet to farm for their prime weapons or forma their weapons (most don't even bother with forma at those level) .

Now that I have said this , I also wanna clarify I have played over 1152 hrs and am currently MR 15 , but I have used Excalibur only 1% -Do I need to say why or is it obvious? I follow each devstream and have even covered all past devstreams on youtube (Yes like one devstream each day - and I know exactly what event and what update was aired when) just to get insight of how Warframe progressed (Not to mention the excitement of getting first 1000 likes on facebook and burning 1000 candles on a cake-beautiful old days ^^ ) and Excal used to be the most favorite and basically the Leader of the tenno starred at the front ! I know Scott said they are bringing some good changes to it (which I am excited about ) but this change to blind behavior is nerfing another very effective ability of Excal to the ground !  I don't play excal so I don't have anything to worry about ,but its for the community I took out this time to write my opinion (Not leaving my new Tennos to face the nerfs just because older ones did not raise their voices)  ! Rest [DE]Glen and team its your game, you can modify it anyway you want , that's all I can say ! 




 

[CTanGod]

-snip-

 

 

As an Excalibur main of MR 19 with almost 1500hs invested of which 17-18% of that time done as Excalibur that is exactly how I feel about this change, this simply nerfs Blind into the ground and is also illogical. The first 3 changes are fine. But making enemies shoot based on sound is dumb because it's not only illogical but it also shows how much the devs know about Blind mechanis as a whole.

 

[DE]Glen claimed that enemies not tossing grenades is a buff, which it somewhat is, except enemies would have an increased chance to throw grenades after the initial stun and even then it would be such a small chance for that to happen that it would actually be a miracle to have it happen. This, and the other nerfs on Excalibur, show just how much feedback devs get on Excalibur and also just how much devs know about him and probably other frames.

 

I personatly find these tests to be quite useless since the sample size is so tiny that it holds no value.

 

Also [DE]Glen probably didn't think that these changes won't only affect veteran players but also new players, what will they think when Radial Blind only stuns the enemy for 5 seconds then as they shoot the blind enemies (since they probably won't know Radial Blind is a melee steroid) they'll think the ability does nothing but stun them and offers nothing else.

 

What I also find insulting is the fact that Prism can still blind through walls for the same stats as Radial Blind while using the old Radial Blind mechanics while Radial Blind must be stuck with LoS instead.

 

I also find it insulting that after I've positioned myself in the right spot to blind all the enemies and proceed to melee them it's enought for 1 teammate to fire his gun at them and get me killed cause all hell broke loose and I have no way to stop it from happening other than spamming Radial Blind and Radial Javelin.

 

Also after this change the only way Excalibur will be usefull is if all teammates use silenced weapons or if a Banshee is willing to use Silence to help Radial Blind.

 

Do you see these problems? they are far too many nerfs in a few changes than the very few and minor buffs.

 

Also these changes are quite terrible (except the whole enemies runing towards pods) since blind enemies only run towards the nearest sound source and immediatly stop at the first chest high wall at which they crouch behind and never move. If you shoot guns next to them or bump into them they'll turn in that direction so they still respond to sound and touch but not in a moronic way.

 

The only thing I see in these changes are attempts to make Excalibur's rework ever more appealing in a very unethical practice of marketing.

 

Also these changes are quite unnecessary since there's only 2 frames who can by default Blind enemies and only 1 augment that can blind enemies and 1 of the frames is Excalibur who is considered garbage by most of the community so that's not a problem, most of the community doesn't know Prism can Blind let alone know it can Blind through walls and nobody will use Mesa's Shooting Gallery augment because Shooting Gallery's Mechanics are quite annoying.

 

Yes, I do know blind status is quite op right now, but making it completely useless when there are so few means to apply is just unfair and unneeded.

 

I end my rant here.