Rhino: Charge, Roar & Stomp.

[Ronyn]

....

I'm very happy about the improved charge, though I view it as a sort of bug fix/QOL adjustment more than a buff. 

The changes to stomp will prove to be a double edged sword, as it will now be more important to watch in builds. I think that is a good thing cause stomp was too easily ab-usable without having to watch ones build.

The extension to roar's duration is the true buff here. I am glad you guys went with that.

Leaving iron skin unchanged is.....well I'm just hoping it's a matter of it is still being looked at but these other changes are more easily fixed. cause it doesn't live up to the "tank" ideal as much as several other powers possessed by other frames in the game do once the going gets rough.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Ronyn

[SilverBones]

I like the idea of Stomp not making enemies float in stasis... that just seems to be odd for the stomp, but perhaps it could just pin them in place with super-increased gravity; downing airborn enemies and keeping them under this intense pressure, kind of like they were being pinned under this god-like power of a foot for a while.

 

Still does the same thing (being a CC) but add the benefit of bringing down airborns and would seem to be a bit more thematic and in line with Rhino.

 

RHINO SMASH.

[NikolaiLev]

Ugh, Rhino getting even more overpowered.  Guess I get to say goodbye to difficulty again anytime a Rhino queues up in my group.

 

At least this will be a nerf to Fleeting Expertise Rhino; thank god.

Edited June 24, 2015 by NikolaiLev

[DiosGX]

At least this will be a nerf to Fleeting Expertise Rhino; thank god.

Um, how?

 

Shorter stasis means you can recast Stomp more often, completely locking down entire rooms with ease. How is that a nerf?

 

 

ON TOPIC: Since you are not touching Iron Skin at all... can we please give Rhino an Armor bonus? I honestly feel like DE is slowly beginning to accept the fact that we like fighting difficult enemies. But dying in two bullets does not equal difficulty. It's frustrating and unfair.

 

Armor bonus please.

o3o

Edited June 24, 2015 by DiosGX

[AXCrusnik]

Looked like "Knockdown" and not "ragdoll"

 

Ragdoll would/should send them flying, which would be much handier than just knocking them down. Not to mention sending them flying would be much more rewarding and entertaining. He's sci-fi space Rhino. They should go flying.

? You talkin about the video? I saw enemies getting ragdolled and thrown. Not touching the ground, "flying" if you will. Do you want them to actually fly across the room? The video made charge look pretty satisfying to use against big groups already.

[Katinka]

Great. Thanks for murdering my Roar build.

 

Could you please go into some detail about this build?  I'm curious about how it has been murdered.

[dashashou]

I still don't under stand how/why these changes are being viewed positively  . 

 

iron skin > Stomp >Rhino charge >Roar , In terms of use / effectiveness ; Iron skin and Stomp being worth pumping at the cost of the other two skills . 

 

Your not changing the primary skill Iron skin ( good thing )  and by puting Stomp on duration  all it 's going to  do  is relegate it to the status of the less used Roar , and Charge .  Cause as helpful as Stomp is it's not worth hurting  iron skin for  , and it's just killing our CC  

 

WE have a frame that can increase  dmg done to mobs Banshee and hardly anyone uses her - due to her lack of tankibility  we have augment mods that add dmg but no one wants to use them due to the cost of 1 mod slot . 

 

in simple terms i use rhino for his iron skin every other skill  is secondary  and these charges as shiny as they are are just going to go to waste due to most advanced Rhinos  burning duration to al most nothing for power eff. and str., and there still not worth respecing off  tough Iron skin 

[shut]

Great. Thanks for murdering my Roar build.

 

Yeah, how dare the devs give Roar a straight buff.

/s

[Necr0Ra1se]

 

I ran Nuovo (Ceres) solo for a while with the new Rhino changes -- I had to do higher level Grineer to avoid just splattering them with my Charge attack; when they started surviving the knockdown was super handy as you can see here.

 

 

I also really enjoyed the slighly longer hang-time for Stomp -- this proved very useful to catch a breather when I needed to reload or drop some pizzas. 

 

When the Perrin Sequence sent their death squad after I popped a Roar that lasted a nice 45 seconds which was pretty great for cutting the eximus down with my Gamacore.

 

My build wasn't anything crazy, either:

 

 

As i can see no Armor buff( Maxed steel fiber detected)

Wxcalibur (medium) 225, Rhino (heavy) 190.... You have strange logic what to buff De.

 

[3kko]

Controllable Rhino Charge still is the best idea i see here, of course this required new animations and a lot time to polish.

So for now I'll have to content myself with a few even buff and leave a complete rework with animations for the next month

[tcooc]

Looks great. Stomp buff seems a bit overpowered (20s stasis anyone?), but other stuff should make rhino much more usable.

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

Could you please go into some detail about this build?  I'm curious about how it has been murdered.

 

Yeah, how dare the devs give Roar a straight buff.

/s

 

My bad. I read it wrong. I thought they were basically swapping out the fixed duration on Stomp for a Fixed duration on Roar. 

 

After reading your comments, I took a second look to see if I misunderstood something. 

 

My bad DE. I should have trusted you.

[Culaio]

 

 

I ran Nuovo (Ceres) solo for a while with the new Rhino changes -- I had to do higher level Grineer to avoid just splattering them with my Charge attack; when they started surviving the knockdown was super handy as you can see here.

 

 

I also really enjoyed the slighly longer hang-time for Stomp -- this proved very useful to catch a breather when I needed to reload or drop some pizzas. 

 

When the Perrin Sequence sent their death squad after I popped a Roar that lasted a nice 45 seconds which was pretty great for cutting the eximus down with my Gamacore.

 

My build wasn't anything crazy, either:

 

 

 

while all those changes are nice they dont fix THE most important problem: making rhino good at his role of being tank, rhino is simply too fragile, actually  changes will make him even worse tank since now if you want to have useful  stomp you must weaken his only line of defense "iron skin", to make 'iron skin" actually slightly useful player must make power duration almost non-existant and its actually impossible currently to build rhino in such way that his "iron skin" actually useful in the endgame, here is awesome idea how to make iron skin useful but not overpowered, please look at this idea:

 

 

To follow up the last post-https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/479260-rhino-charge-roar-stomp/page-7#entry5340923

Alright, so let us say that hypothetically you guy's decide that you want Rhino to fullfill a tank role as much as any other frame in warframe currently does. And operating under the idea that you want this to happen even at the end game/trail level verses level 80 enemies...

I'm going to provide one idea of how that might work.

 

Disclaimer: The specific numbers used are for illustrative purposes only. The important thing to note is the proposed mechanics.

 

Rhino's ability to tank hinges on his capacity to initiate (primarily charge), survive incoming damage (base stats and iron skin) and impede enemy action (charge and stomp) by disrupting them. Additionally he has roar to increase the damage output for himself and the team.

The announced upcoming changes are solid, but without a direct change to his defensive capability they will not be enough to make him a tank.

 

For Rhino's stats, I'd raise his base armor to 350. 

For a relatively simple yet directed fix to iron skin. It would work as follows-

 

• Rhino hardens his skin to create a reinforcing buffer with 500 / 700 / 1000 / 1500 Armor-based hitpoints. While the buffer is active, Rhino becomes immune to damage and Status Effects. Iron Skin will expire when the buffer's hitpoints are depleted.Total amount of Iron Skins hitpoints is affected by Power Strength.
•  
•  
•  
• Iron Skin acts as separate layer of protection over Rhino's health and shields. Iron Skin adds 100 percent of Rhino's total armor value including Steel Fiber, the effects of Iron Clad Charge and any other friendly buffs that would increase Warframe armor..
•  
•  
•  
• While Iron Skin is active: any attack rhino does on an enemy will inflict the "taunted" status effect on that enemy. This will cause them to focus all of their attention on rhino for 5 seconds. Each enemy affected by the taunt effect will increase the percentage that Iron Skin gains from his total armor by 2/4/8/10 percent (maybe more?). This affect stacks but cannot exceed a 200 (maybe 300, 400?) percent total armor increase. That percentage is effected by power strength mods. The duration of the taunt effect is affected by duration mods. This means that the more enemies rhino has focused on himself the more durable he is. Note: By "Any attack rhino does I am referring to whoever he shoots, hits with melee or effects with one of his powers. Literally any attack that rhino does. This allows him to pick and choose to taunt enemies one by one or in groups as he the need arises.
•  
•  
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• The taunt effect caused by attacks done while iron skin is active will be immediately disbanded when iron skin breaks or if it is manually deactivated by iron shrapnel. Note that the enemies formally aggro'ed will not necessarily attack a different target, they are simply no longer forced to attack Rhino and will target enemies as usual.
•  

 

Some thoughts on why I went with this design-

My goal is to increase Rhino's capability to be an effective tank as long as he applies thought and effort to do so properly.

Another goal is that Rhino's defensive aspects don't simply protect him alone, but protects allies as well by drawing fire away from them.

This is meant to directly reward rhino's attempts to protect allies by granting him greater durability for doing so.

as well as work re-actively with the situation. The more you need it, the more you get it principal.

Yet another goal is to give rhino a tanking mechanic that isn't just a rehash of one of some other frames power mechanic.

Also, by having Iron Skin scale off of total armor, the players can create team compositions that take advantage of frames who buff armor.

 

Note: For those concerned that the "taunt" on hit mechanic might be hard to code.

Think of it as a lot like a forced radiation proc on hit, except instead of making enemies attack each other at random, it makes them attack rhino in particular.

 

Disclaimer: The specific numbers used are for illustrative purposes only. The important thing to note is the proposed mechanics.

For those who see the base numbers and think they sound extremely high, I suggest you look at the wiki's actual numbers on other frames defensive buff skills. Like Chroma (Vex Armor) , Valkyr (Hysteria), trinity (Link&Blessing) and Frost (Snowglobe).

it is often startling to realize that these other defensive measures are several times as sturdy as sturdy as rhino is currently.

Not to mention what Mesa (shatter shield), Zephyrs (turbulence), and Mirages (Eclipse) can do when used properly.

Even Nekros, with his shield of shadows mod achieves a surprisingly high level of resilience.

The curve of who is tough and who is not has seriously shifted.

 

Thank you for reading.

 

Edit: cleaned up the format and explained it a little more clearly.

 

Edited June 24, 2015 by Culaio

[Thalahssalyst]

You're right -- you knock enemies down if you fly past them -- but right now they don't ragdoll which means you can smash head-on into an enemy and stop instead of always pushing them out of the way. You also feel like a pinball in a way because you're bouncing around enemies rather than smashing them out of your way. You'll just have to wait to try it -- the new way feels so much nicer!

Have you think, on rhino normal Iron Skin, The color on it, based on the Energy Color?

I will like to see a Complete Black Iron Skin on normal Rhino.

[SilverBones]

if you ask me stomping hard enough to disrubt time seems way less odd than stomping hard enough to increase gravity force

 

also if they were pinned to the ground they could be hard to seperate from dead bodies and not in same line of fire as enemies that didnt get stomped, its way eaiser to aim at them if they are levetating horizonticly with the ground just above it, that also puts them in same line of fire as enemies that didnt get stomped

 

It's not really about the science behind it for me at this point, it just seems more thematically in tune with a Rhino to basically crush and drive things into the ground, then to stop them in time, motionless. It's a personal wish really, nothing more. I am all about the aesthetic integration between theme and gameplay over the numbers / science behind it.

 

Also, a debuff appearance (for example, rapidly lowering bars of light traveling down the targets body) could point out who was still alive.

 

Again, this is a Rhino wish-list thing. The buffs look good, but as part of the rework, I would love to see some of the aesthetics change.

[(PSN)Folkeye]

Sounds like motivation to Rank the Rhino to lev 30. I'm more of a roar person, so making it more useful on lower ranks will be good.

[SilverBones]

well yeah its warframe afterall, place where our logic fails

it would probably look a bit more awesome but its still inpractical for aiming in every way even with that light thing especially thos ewho are close to you, to target them all would take time, horizontal stasis would be awesome, so that they would all be lined up on same hight, also better for all punchtrough thing. Its not like we have a perfect horizontal lineup now but i always wanted that.

 

Ah, the Blinding Hellspace where our Science and Reason failed.

 

Thats a fair point though on unit visibility / lineup.

[ArbitUHM]

I really like the proposed changes.

 

But as good as the duration buff to Roar is, I feel it needs something to spice it up and match the flashiness of his other three abilities. Charge, Iron Skin, and Stomp all have very immediate and very visual effects that make you go "whoa." Roar gives people a little orange aura and buffs some numbers that operate in the background. Roar has also been overshadowed by other damage buff abilities (although I do recognize the advantages of having a team buff on a tanky character, rather than a squishy support-style caster).

 

I suggest that Roar have a 100% chance to stagger enemies in a 20 meter radius when cast. Since it's now a long duration ability, having a one-shot effect when cast wouldn't be that useful, so an additional pulse with a 50% chance to stagger (affected by power strength) should trigger every 5 seconds until the ability ends. The pulses could be like residual echo of the initial roar and cause the ground to tremble slightly. I think if it played the Roar sound effect every 5 seconds it could get annoying, so some sort of rumbling sound effect could be used.

 

edit: can we change the color of Iron Skin so it matches energy color? I don't like the shiny golden "Iron" Skin on Rhino Prime. Ideally, it would be primarily iron (i.e. gray) with a tinge of whatever the player's chosen energy color is so he doesn't look like a shiny piece of cotton candy if you choose a light reddish energy color.

Edited June 24, 2015 by ArbitUHM

[sanj66]

Are you kidding me? No way is having Stomp scale to duration a nerf. You'll just have to change your build. Roar getting a more duration is not a nerf. It is an extremely good buff. Iron Skin is not reliable in higher end missions. Charge being able to ragdoll and send enemies flying away is not a nerf either.

actually it is a nerf, one that can kill you, modding for a longer roar will also make you mod for a longer stomp duration, which then basically kills your ability to cc. rhino as it was before was almost perfect but for iron skin, it was too op in low missions and utter garbage in higher missions, and sadly that is the one skill DE decided to ignore. now if you are modding for roar, you are gonna kill 2 other skills instead of 1, where as modding for roar before meant killing IS, now your cc will be almost useless as the issue and the 1 issue stomp had was unlike other cc abilities it has power in use, now if 1 last opponent is cced and a fresh batch enters they can wipe you much easier than before as you have that longer duration locking the skill in use. overall the charge changes and the roar changes are great, stomp and the idea to neglect his greatest flaw IS tbh i dont know what they were thinking as those are utterly poor decision possibly even lazy decisions to try to seem like something was done.

[STARL1GHT]

It would be nice if the new Rhino Stomp could the ability to re-use even when it is already active.

[sanj66]

Can anybody tell me what's the point of a tank, if he can't aggro? Why should I invite a Rhino to my squad, if the odds of my squishy Nova getting shot are just about the same? I'd much rather invite a CC frame, or a support frame. Both would keep my squishy Novabutt intact.

 

DE, please for the love of Lotus, add an Aggro pull mechanic to Iron Skin. It would make me go from "Oh, a Rhino. What a waste of a squad slot" to "Sweet, a Rhino! I can remove Redirection now!". It will give him an ability to actually fulfill his role as a tank - he will be the protector of the team. 

 

Thank you for reading ♥

the problem is most tanks in games that draw aggro have decent to good means of mitigating the damage while holding aggro, rhino doesnt, he has relatively low armor compared to non tank frames, probably one of the weakest and worst damage mitigation skills in game, IS.

[CrimsonNightSky]

- a few snips heres and theres-

 

I suggest that Roar have a 100% chance to stagger enemies in a 20 meter radius when cast. 

 

edit: can we change the color of Iron Skin so it matches energy color? I don't like the shiny golden "Iron" Skin on Rhino Prime. Ideally, it would be primarily iron (i.e. gray) with a tinge of whatever the player's chosen energy color is so he doesn't look like a shiny piece of cotton candy if you choose a light reddish energy color.

Nice idea. Rhinos -the animals- are not necessarily known for bloodcurdling roars, but most animals that roar give off a strong shock/fear factor when they do it. A stagger could be in line with that idea.

Also, with iron skin, I think it'd be reasonable to get some visual changes going on. 

-One idea is for Rhino (Prime specifically) having direct control over his color and maybe even translucency. This would be similar to how you can scale down how vibrant abilities by choosing how bright/dark the color you choose is. Darker energy colors typically make the ability effect much less in your face. Primes are generally extra fancy looking versions of the normal frames, so I think this would fit.

-Another idea is to have more visual indication for how Iron Skin is doing. What I mean is that it starts off pretty shiny when it's at 100%, but as you take damage you can visibly see it lose its luster until you're back to normal looking @0%. One problem that newbie Rhinos have is that they're unaware of how much durability they have left. They feel invincible while they're shiny looking and dont realize their in a bad spot til all the shinies are gone.

[Neah]

[Roar]

Will the Roar changes also make it recastable when it is active?
It is annoying when you cannot recast it if you missed an ally whom is out of range when you cast it, with the increased duration, it would be even more so. I hope with the changes it will be recastable, just a small QoL change I'd like to see.

 

[iron Skin]

Also, about Iron Skin, perhaps it could use a mechanic like the current Frost's Snowglobe where there is a set duration (5 seconds?) that allows Iron Skin to absorb damage and use a portion of the damage to increase Iron Skin's integrity. Currently, high level enemies will shred Iron Skin within seconds which makes it very weak on later stages of the game. Granted, any experienced Rhino users will avoid taking damage with Iron Skin, instead using it as a form of CC immunity, but it simply doesn't last long enough at high levels.

If it should be increased with time, Duration builds on Rhino would work as well, (which also compliments Roar and Rhino Stomp ) instead of the current Efficiency + Power Strength builds , and is also a hybrid of the Old (pre- U7) invincible Iron Skin and the new one.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Neah

[Cpl_Facehugger]

In the Radial-blinding light of a widely discussed and promoted Excalibur Rework, a lot of attention has immediately moved forward to Frost and our hopes about what his rework will bring. However - in the immediate future - there are some changes coming to Rhino based on a lot of conversations about where he fits into things overall. We had some time to address what we could earlier today with Rhino - some relatively small items that still create a more formidable Rhino as a whole.

 

As always - everything is subject to change. The following ability tweaks are based on our combined experiences with Rhino, and if there's anything you'd like to bring up in relation to the following, this thread is the spot for it!

 

Firstly, Rhino Charge:

 

We are working to added forced ragdolling to every enemy in Rhino's way when he casts Rhino Charge. We're looking to do-away with the scenario where Rhino Charges into a group of high-level enemies and stops dead in his tracks because his charge wasn't lethal; we're going to be making non-lethal hits send the enemies flying instead!

 

Secondly, Iron Skin will be unchanged.  

Thirdly, Roar:

 

The most immediate problem with Roar is obvious if you're freshly ranking Rhino: a 'Rank 1' Roar only lasts for 7 seconds, and takes about a full second or more to cast. The change we're making here is that Rhino's Roar will have a duration of 30 seconds regardless of your Frame Rank. For reference, currently a max-Rank, unmodded Roar lasts for 15 seconds. Note that, as before, the Duration can be enhanced through mods -- with the right mods a max-duration roar will last almost a minute and a half!

 

Lastly, Rhino Stomp:

 

As it stands, the Stasis portion of Rhino's Stomp has an 8 second flat-rate that is not affected by Duration mods. However, we are going to apply the benefits of Duration modding to this part of the ability. This means you can now mod for a longer or shorter Duration (depending on the mods used).

 

We're aiming to have this in your hands for feedback this week on PC!

 

While all of those changes generally sound good, I want to say that iron skin remaining unchanged is not good.

 

Iron skin as it stands is really not very useful for high level play. It evaporates in seconds in T4 content, to say nothing of raids.

 

I strongly suggest you give it snowglobe-like mechanics, where it's invincible for four seconds and then takes the damage of anything that hits it during those four seconds and adds that damage to its final health, in order to give it some utility. Because right now rhino draws a lot of fire, but above level 35 or so, he can't take the fire he draws.

[-TheKnight-]

What I would like to see, is that the charge gets updated animations.

I'd like to see him charge with full force, much like an American football player, perhaps ending his charge with a sort of discharge or a sweep with his arm, so that the small AoE remains.

 

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I've never like the uncontrollable forward boost.