So Wait... The Stalker Was Right? (Spoilers?)

[Mak_Gohae]

 

I finally found the post concerning replacing Ordis to be a terrible idea, in case anyone here still gives a care:

 

Yaer being a DE staff member

 

 

Tenno cannot even operate the foundry?

So all we know is how to kill and nothing else?

 

And, both times, he's a damn FOOL for wanting to do so. Life under the Orokin meant slavery for entire races of people, and life under the Grineer and Corpus makes the same.

 

 

Who was under slavery under the Orokin besides the Grineer who are being made to be workers so everyone else wouldn't have to work?

 

You'll argue that "yeah, well we caused the Grineer and Corpus one" and I'll respond "yeah, and we're trying to correct that mistake" but ultimately neither of us will come any closer to seeing what the other sees as being right or wrong with the way things were/are in the Warframe verse.

 

This is mainly about not wanting to work for a Sentient that screwed it up for EVERYONE.

Remember that.

EVERYONE got screwed because of what she did.

 

The Stalker is a man too dedicated to the Orokin, too dedicated to the dead tyrants of yore. Teshin at least seems to realize the Orokin are gone, hence why he's focused his attention onto those he sees as their greatest legacy and possible inheritants: the Tenno.

 

I dont think he is dedicated to the Orokin. From his dialogue he appears not to want the Tenno to complete their missions.

Yes, he mentions a bit about the past but most of his dialogue is not centered on the Orokin.

 

He seems like a chill dude.

 

 

U guys make Mama Lotus Sad with all hate talk against her :c

 

Pssssh, that crazy chick aint my mom dukes, my mom is my mom. 

[Charles_Rex]

Well, what can i say... Death to the Lotus.

[Mak_Gohae]

TL;DR Orokin made their own problems.

And then tried everything to fix it. Infested, Grineer, Tenno etc.

The Tenno fixed the problem, well 90% of it.

 

Then they fixed the root cause of all the problems.

Ze Orokin.

 

There will always be people that hate whatever government is in place.

Always.

So, there will always be a  "problem."

 

the universe revolves around elightened self intrest.

 

And with the "Lotus" we keep destroying technology that will advance the factions.

More reason to leave the  "Lotus".

 

With no Lotus the world isn't going to become sunshine and rainbows.

 

 

And?

Is that the mission of the  "Lotus" ? Cause i dont think it is.

 

The Stalker is hell bent on revenge. I doubt us leaving the Lotus would be enough to justify to him the death of an entire empire.

 

Well, leaving will not stop his revenge, of course. We will need to relay the info we got that it was all "Lotus'" fault.

 

The Grineer will still kill us because they are xenophobic, they are not acting in response to wars, they just deeply hate everything not Grineer.

 

Not all of them. Steel Meridian are cool, Ruk is cool.

If the Tenno stop destroying Grineer tech they will probably ignore us. Or hire us.

 

The Corpus seek to exploit us for profit or for science. And without a unified body, the Tenno will easily be taken 1 by 1 for whatever cruel experiment without any means of stopping them.

 

Well, if you need to be part of a team that's cool.

But i dont think being part of a team where the person sending orders has mental issues is the best bet.

 

The infested would continue doing whatever, and the Grineer and Corpus don't exactly seem to have things under control.

 

This might be cause the Tenno keep blowing stuff up.

[motorfirebox]

This is hilarious.

 

*defends slavery*

 

*demands freedom*

 

*volunteers to work with the last known living representative of the slavers*

[Kaisty]

With no Lotus the world isn't going to become sunshine and rainbows.

The Stalker is hell bent on revenge. I doubt us leaving the Lotus would be enough to justify to him the death of an entire empire.

The Grineer will still kill us because they are xenophobic, they are not acting in response to wars, they just deeply hate everything not Grineer.

The Corpus seek to exploit us for profit or for science. And without a unified body, the Tenno will easily be taken 1 by 1 for whatever cruel experiment without any means of stopping them.

The infested would continue doing whatever, and the Grineer and Corpus don't exactly seem to have things under control.

Even with Lotus there is no sunshine and rainbows in the Warframe universe. If DE wants a compelling story, there will never be sunshine and rainbows anywhere in the lore because many players know that a Happily Ever After is just the high point of the story, and it goes downhill from there.

 

Every faction and group will seek to exploit the Tenno because we are good for two things: Killing and Merc work. Unless DE brings in a faction that is all about stasis locking down everyone and trying to make us all be "Super Best Friends Forever!", that is all this game will be.

 

One of the main questions folks should be asking is "Could the Tenno (as a whole) do well if Lotus was not around or never existed?" Even with the whole "Lotus woke you up to save you" point, that could always be retconned into Ordis waking us up, or Stalker going to kill us and accidentally hit the wrong part of the cryo tank, expelling us into a sewer where we would find weapons and other things in order to escape his "wrath" and grow to be the Tenno we used to be before we napped.

 

While it would take resources to change the prologue and tutorial to have it without Lotus, DE could do it. Besides the "Tactical alerts", times you have been caught by Stalker / bolted by the G3, and even the drops of life support during Survival missions, what else is Lotus good for that couldn't be replaced by Ordis or someone / thing else?

[Mak_Gohae]

I think it's hard to argue that the Orokin weren't monstrously evil. Survival is one thing. Survival by enslaving other intelligent beings—much less creating intelligent beings for the purpose of enslavement—is another. If slavery isn't evil, nothing is.

 

They didnt enslave other intelligent beings. They created worker creatures so everyone else could go on and to their thing. They made it better for everyone. 

 

 

Aren't you the one talking about joining the Stalker...?

 

 

 

Stalker isnt sent to kill us.

He is out for revenge because of what we did.

Different things.

Once he learns that we were used and that we could help the real villain he could be grateful.

 

 

 

Mmm. I think there's a point at which getting rid of a bad thing is more important than making sure you have a good thing to replace it with. The Orokin were, as best I can tell, a slave-based society.

 

Best based on what? The creation of the Grineer?

We dont know how old the Grineer are on the purpose of their creation.

It seems to be to work in dangerous locations. So they did that for the betterment of society.

 

It's not clear what's happened with the Lotus since she put the Tenno in cryosleep. Her own memories are at least partially corrupted, it's not just the Tenno. Besides, you're the one talking about how it's okay to genetically engineer slave races to fight your battles for you. That's fine, but hiding from a superior enemy isn't?

 

 

She put us to sleep to hide the fact that she didnt kill us.

And sorry but im not going to trust a liar saying she doesnt recall.

 

I dunno, man. Everything you're charging the Lotus with can be said of the Orokin and/or the Stalker.

Niether the Stalker or Orokin were sent to secretly use us and then get rid of us.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2015 by Mak_Gohae

[motorfirebox]

They didnt enslave other intelligent beings. They created worker creatures so everyone else could go on and to their thing. They made it better for everyone. 

Except for the intelligent beings they created and enslaved.

[ThunderZsolt]

Loyalists would be getting weapons from the Lotus, separatists would be building their own... Yeah, Lotus' side would have much better weapons.

 

well, if i could side with the stalker, i would.

 

but that wouldn't be fair, because the stalker would give dread/despair level weapons compared to paris(non prime)/kunai - so anyone still siding with the lotus?

 

Fact is, there's really nobody else to side with besides Lotus.

 

- Stalker wants us dead.

- Grineer would chop us up and study us.

- Corpus would chop us up and study us.

- Infested would infest.

 

None of the Syndicates or smaller factions have the resources to manage/organize every single Tenno operation the way that Lotus does.

 

if they don't have the resources now, it doesn't mean they won't. They just had to begin somewhere - with the average of 16% of the tenno supporting each syndicate (some even max 3-4 syndicates like myself) they have 5000 tenno working for them each day only on the PC. Spy/mobile defense/capture missions probably make some profit for them, so they can expand quickly, since they are paying with self-made weapons/syandanas

[EmptyDevil]

well, if i could side with the stalker, i would.

 

but that wouldn't be fair, because the stalker would give dread/despair level weapons compared to paris(non prime)/kunai - so anyone still siding with the lotus?

 

He wouldn't give you those. He would kill you. There is no siding with Stalker simply because the only way he wants you is dead.

[Agentcheese]

this really got me thinking about the nahtah quest and all.

 

I was thinking how different and interesting it would be if all the teno were  dead. since there would be nothing to keep the so called balance the grineer corpus or infested might fully wipe out another.

 

also with the talk of the corpus just chopping you up and building things like zunuka out of you, what if that could happen and you could control the zunuka?

 

that would be some interesting but sadly also broken gameplay.

 

 

I also wonder what the stalkers reaction would be if I gave myself up to him.

[motorfirebox]

I also wonder what the stalkers reaction would be if I gave myself up to him.

Dread to the face. So much easier when you're standing still!

[EvilChaosKnight]

Funny enough Natah quest has confirmed the theory I had the moment Teshin appeared. It all made perfect sense once you put everything together save for the fact that I didn't expect Lotus to actually be a sentient herself yet it didn't change a thing on how I saw stuff unfold.

So once upon a time there were Orokin. Not much was known about them at first but the more I learned the less I liked them. Leaving alone the fact that they've experimented on children which one could explain by complete and dire desperation, we also have this:

a. Those are the people who created Neural Sentries which mindrape and enslave nearly everything alive. At first I considered it a defensive mechanism of the Void towers but nope. More recent lore bits from Simaris revealed that Corrupted were a thing before the empire fell.

b. They created Lephantis which, may I remind you, in fact has both Grineer and Corpus bits in it which means that they've infected actual people to make that thing. Also in attempt to fix their previous mess up they had toyed with Technocyte virus hard enough to make infested far more dangerous if not unstoppable while not really bothering to search for a cure apparently.

c. They specifically created thinking living breathing beings to be their slaves. That's far beyond acceptable lines really.

d. As proven by crewman record, they didn't feel too bad about murdering each other either if their performance at work wasn't good enough.

 

What's the current situation on the Orokin?

Stalker's lore specifically blames Tenno for the fall of the Orokin Empire. He really has no reason to lie since why would anyone lie to their victims about the reason of murder esp. driven by revenge?

 

Teshin is the person whom I honestly trust the least. He kept talking how the NEW enemy came and "we were not prepared" thus failed the Orokin because "we" forgot the conclave. Now, why would I put emphasis on "NEW"?

Because when Tenno appeared Sentients were already a thing, and we fought them well enough as proven by Stalker's record since there was a celebration of victory. Now, whom do fight in conclave? Other Tenno. Who were the ones who killed the Orokin? Tenno. Put 2 and 2 together. The Tenno were the new enemy he talked about.

Teshin also never seem to have considered Orokin bad or evil in any way either...

Conclusion: Teshin is not a friend at all. In the past he probably rallied some Tenno to protect the Orokin against the Lotus-inspired uprising but failed obviously.

Now he either tries to win Tenno over from Lotus because she "led them astray" (can't blame her here really, I'd have loved to see Orokin fall myself considering stuff they've done) or is cooking up sort of civil war among us as an act of spite/revenge.

 

TL;DR - The Orokin were just evil, so don't trust the Orokin sympathizer aka Teshin, he's up to no good.

[motorfirebox]

Teshin I'm giving sideeye to until we learn a little more about his deal. Lotus doesn't appear to view him as an enemy, or she'd send squads to assassinate him. Likewise, Teshin's main beef with Lotus seems to be how she's training (or not training) the Tenno, rather than anything truly ideological.

 

The Orokin were straight up Space Nazis, though.

[Leavith]

Wow

The Orokin are great civilization we cannot be mad about the choices they made to survive and to prosper.

If all the things they had done had not occur were would we be?

Lets think about we know the Orokin are an Advance species of humans who have great technology and are at a high intelligent level.

From what i understand is that unless the decision taken affect the Orokin directly in the direction to their death their is really no true ethics Just 2 things efficiency and effectiveness.By the group of people who started out as the orokin just following this pattern is fully possible that they reach this potential by sacrificing others.While we judge the Orokin for doing this they were not the 1st people in the Warframe universe or in our world.

Now you guys might suggest what the heck am i saying well lets look at the Crewman info one of the lines mention about the Orokin ancestors.

Now let say the Sentient had wiped the orokin before they experimented on us were would we be...Dead probably most likely since we do leak the flaw.

Now let say the Orokin had not created the Grineer were would us children of the Void be....i say we would actually be the work force just basing of the fact that they need a workforce that can do  hard labor since this is a civilization orientated to advancement and intellegent they cannot have people who are truly useful put in situation that are dangerous.A good example is the fact that Grineer use the same primitive weapon or even worst then us,and whats more surprising they actually were an existence that was created during the Orokin era and lived through the dark time to reestablish themselves.It either means the Grineer are stupid mentally not having the capacity to comprehend the orokin or that they truly lack the search for knowledge....Which would be weird if mastering the Orokin technology would lead you to conquer the world and curing yourself and people.

Now let say the Orokin never existed then we would have never existed

 

So no matter how you look at it we should thanks the Orokin and the sentient

Well the Tenno are put in the situation were we can choose who we wish to be loyal to or to even decide to be loyal

We are not given a background to us truly caring about our background more like we always follow order of our superior or i would have to say operator...which is what i believe lotus is.  

The only 3 things and example we have been given to care about in a fight based on lore

Fighting

Completion of mission

and our comrades & allies(be it a normal person or tenno)

 

If i could still make the choice i would have chosen the Orokin i truly would have not lost anything i chosen them lets just take a look at the fact that Lotus came to destroy us...if by any chance she had not been infertal by some reason we could have died.

So i really would have liked to work again with the Orokin see if their was a way we could defeat this new sentient group fully Leaving the solar system at peace in the Hands of the Orokin...I mean we would be at peace as well is not like they could kill us or they would have in the DAY of Celebration

[Mak_Gohae]

This reply makes me think you haven't read the lore at all. You are just nitpicking and trying really hard to find a reason to be against Lotus for whatever weird reason.

 

What part of what i have said is nitpicking?

It's pretty clear what was said.

They came over to destroy the orokin and their weapons.

"Lotus" went nutty and wanted to keep us as babies.

 

Sorry, but i dont want to be part of that.

It's simple.

 

 

Aye, probably, but it would be interesting if DE followed the plot thread they hinted at: that Ordis was the one responsible for forgetting his own knowledge.

 

Like Ordis figured out what Lotus was and what was going to happen, but also saw what would happen if he outed her or she failed, and so tore out his own memory banks for the good of the Tenno.

 

I see it more as part of evil "Lotus" plan.

To keep her babies she needs to make sure they didnt find out what actually happened so she made Ordis delete or hide the files.

If she turned on her own people cause she wanted babies so bad she is going to be pretty thorough.

[CBAROG]

Leaving the solar system at peace in the Hands of the Orokin...I mean we would be at peace as well is not like they could kill us or they would have in the DAY of Celebration

Yeah, right. We destroyed their empire and killed their emperors, it's not like they bear any grudge. If anything they'll give us some orocookies.

I'd love to kill all Orokin myself a dozen times to not let them get their filthy hands on Origin again.

[motorfirebox]

Wow

The Orokin are great civilization we cannot be mad about the choices they made to survive and to prosper.

If all the things they had done had not occur were would we be?

That's really not a good argument. The fact that the Orokin created beings to be enslaved doesn't make it okay to have enslaved them. It kinda makes it worse, actually.

 

Without the Orokin's tinkering, whatever human civilization arose in their place wouldn't have to deal with

-Grineer genetic deterioration

-the Infestation

-the Sentient

-the Tenno. Seriously, the Tenno are at best a necessary evil—a race of people mutilated and experimented on as children so that they grow up to be living weapons, a vocation etched into them so deeply that when they wake up after centuries or millennia and are able to remember nothing else, they still remember how to kill with an ease that puts every other player on the board to shame.

 

All of that can be laid directly at the feet of the Orokin. For the Origin System's inhabitants to thank the Orokin for their existence would require the Orokin to have left behind a much less awful existence. 

[Morec0]

I see it more as part of evil "Lotus" plan.

To keep her babies she needs to make sure they didnt find out what actually happened so she made Ordis delete or hide the files.

If she turned on her own people cause she wanted babies so bad she is going to be pretty thorough.

 

And I suppose that's again where we differ. You see Lotus' actions as having been evil, I see them as having been more for the greater good - even if they came from selfish motives (which, ironically, makes her rather human as a character). But that is ultimately regardless to the idea I was presenting: Ordis seeing the greater good of the Lotus' actions and destroying parts of himself because he knows, otherwise, he'll try to stop her. I like the poetry of it.

[Leavith]

Yeah, right. We destroyed their empire and killed their emperors, it's not like they bear any grudge. If anything they'll give us some orocookies.

I'd love to kill all Orokin myself a dozen times to not let them get their filthy hands on Origin again.

 

So i really would have liked to work again with the Orokin see if their was a way we could defeat this new sentient group fully Leaving the solar system at peace in the Hands of the Orokin...I mean we would be at peace as well is not like they could kill us or they would have in the DAY of Celebration.

What i am referring to is the fact that if i could get a redo and not have to kill the orokin i would have loved to work with them to destroy the people who were the Natah of in other words the Sentient group that was dispatch to end us.

 

That's really not a good argument. The fact that the Orokin created beings to be enslaved doesn't make it okay to have enslaved them. It kinda makes it worse, actually.

 

Without the Orokin's tinkering, whatever human civilization arose in their place wouldn't have to deal with

-Grineer genetic deterioration

-the Infestation

-the Sentient

-the Tenno. Seriously, the Tenno are at best a necessary evil—a race of people mutilated and experimented on as children so that they grow up to be living weapons, a vocation etched into them so deeply that when they wake up after centuries or millennia and are able to remember nothing else, they still remember how to kill with an ease that puts every other player on the board to shame.

 

All of that can be laid directly at the feet of the Orokin. For the Origin System's inhabitants to thank the Orokin for their existence would require the Orokin to have left behind a much less awful existence. 

I am saying is i don't care if what they did was good or bad ...if they had not tinker you and me wouldn't be here.Is quiet simple the evil they did lead to us.I would have prefer me being alive and have the power to fight infested,grineer,corpus ,and sentient.

Grineer deterioration is they grineer fault they keep re using their own DNA over and over again to make more solider we are inform that after many decades.and i kind of do believe this is the grineer fault while they were created by the orokin for slaves the grineer pushed the technology they knew which was clonning to expand themselves for more power.

I believe this because if we look at the augmented grineer and the damage they done to themselves as uncarring and advance the orokin are i wouldn't put it pass them to just kill the DNA mistake and use different DNA instead of trying to repair the grineer.

The infested virus was something that they tried to use to fight the sentient threat.

The sentient were not meant to be a weapon but the builders of their new world...Think what would have happend if the Sentient had not turned the orokin would still be around the empire stronger then ever and life easier for their citizen.

 

So excuse me when i say i am glad the Orokin did all they done.Because i was the product of their decision and i am alive their evil i don't care many establish goverment in the world of Warframe have done the same as well as in our present world. and thats how we came to be.

If you had choice to go back in time in warframe and kill the orokin before what they did would you do it...knowing it would cause you and everyone you know to disappear basically killing them in the sense of now they are no one and never existed or be remembered.

SO yeah the happiest time for us Tenno was when the Sentient were defeated i don't know why we turn on the Orokin but i wish to know if it was because they were threat to us o because our operator order us to(lotus) not because she made turn by persuasion 

[motorfirebox]

I am saying is i don't care if what they did was good or bad ...if they had not tinker you and me wouldn't be here.Is quiet simple the evil they did lead to us.I would have prefer me being alive and have the power to fight infested,grineer,corpus ,and sentient.

 

So excuse me when i say i am glad the Orokin did all they done.Because i was the product of their decision and i am alive their evil i don't care many establish goverment in the world of Warframe have done the same as well as in our present world. and thats how we came to be.

If you had choice to go back in time in warframe and kill the orokin before what they did would you do it...knowing it would cause you and everyone you know to disappear basically killing them in the sense of now they are no one and never existed or be remembered.

SO yeah the happiest time for us Tenno was when the Sentient were defeated i don't know why we turn on the Orokin but i wish to know if it was because they were threat to us o because our operator order us to(lotus) not because she made turn by persuasion 

 

 

Again, that's simply a horrible defense. It justifies every bad thing that ever happened. Chattel slavery in early America? Who cares, none of us would be here if history were different! Rape of Nanking during WWII? Who cares, lots of Japanese people would never have been born otherwise! Holocaust? Who cares, the entire course of modern history would be completely altered without it!

 

 

Grineer deterioration is they grineer fault they keep re using their own DNA over and over again to make more solider we are inform that after many decades.and i kind of do believe this is the grineer fault while they were created by the orokin for slaves the grineer pushed the technology they knew which was clonning to expand themselves for more power.

I believe this because if we look at the augmented grineer and the damage they done to themselves as uncarring and advance the orokin are i wouldn't put it pass them to just kill the DNA mistake and use different DNA instead of trying to repair the grineer.

The infested virus was something that they tried to use to fight the sentient threat.

The sentient were not meant to be a weapon but the builders of their new world...Think what would have happend if the Sentient had not turned the orokin would still be around the empire stronger then ever and life easier for their citizen.

Grineer deterioration is pretty strongly indicated to have been built into them by the Orokin, whether intentionally or as a design flaw. As revealed by the Lancer imprint, the Orokin used existing Grineer as templates for later generations of clones. The Grineer are replicating themselves in the manner that the Orokin intended for them to be replicated. The process itself is the cause of their deterioration, and the Grineer didn't come up with that process—the Orokin did.

 

As for the Infested and the Sentient, what the Orokin intended isn't really relevant. What they actually did was to create at least two threats to all other existing life in the solar system. The road to hell etc etc.

[Mak_Gohae]

This is hilarious.

 

*defends slavery*

 

*demands freedom*

 

*volunteers to work with the last known living representative of the slavers*

 

When did i defend slavery?

 

Wait, we are not free?

 

Where did you get the idea that the Orokin were slavers?

 

Except for the intelligent beings they created and enslaved.

 

They were created but they were not enslaved.

They are beings used for the purpose of their creation.

Grineer are cows or horses that walk on two feet.

They are hairless Kubrow.

[motorfirebox]

When did i defend slavery?

Wait, we are not free?

Where did you get the idea that the Orokin were slavers?

They were created but they were not enslaved.

They are beings used for the purpose of their creation.

Grineer are cows or horses that walk on two feet.

They are hairless Kubrow.

Kubrow aren't intelligent. Grineer are intelligent enough to have self-determination. Enslavement of the Grineer was still enslavement regardless of who created them.

I mean, the Grineer are just genetically-engineered humans. Modifying someone's DNA doesn't make them your property.

When did i defend slavery?

Wait, we are not free?

Where did you get the idea that the Orokin were slavers?

They were created but they were not enslaved.

They are beings used for the purpose of their creation.

Grineer are cows or horses that walk on two feet.

They are hairless Kubrow.

Kubrow aren't intelligent. Grineer are intelligent enough to have self-determination. Enslavement of the Grineer was still enslavement regardless of who created them.

I mean, the Grineer are just genetically-engineered humans. Modifying someone's DNA doesn't make them your property.

[BrazilianJoe]

I "demand" 3 factions: 

 

Lotus the Betrayer

Stalker the Righteous

VORscalibur the Void Prophet (the real one)

[Mak_Gohae]

Except for the intelligent beings they created and enslaved.

 

The Grineer are not intelligent.

They are just smart enough to perform the job they were created to do.

 

Some have come out being smarter than the rest and over the millennia they are created more smart ones. 

 

In the Natah quest there is letter sent from one smart Grineer to some others and at the end of it he closes by saying that if you did not understand all that was written "SEND DRAGA-KILL TENNO-HELP BROTHERS"

 

Those are some very simply commands there.

 

He wouldn't give you those. He would kill you. There is no siding with Stalker simply because the only way he wants you is dead.

 

Because he thinks we betrayed the Orokin.

But once we reveal that this was a Sentient plan and that "Lotus" is a Sentient, he will gladly accept the help of the high guardians.

[Morec0]

The Grineer are not intelligent.

They are just smart enough to perform the job they were created to do.

 

Some have come out being smarter than the rest and over the millennia they are created more smart ones. 

 

In the Natah quest there is letter sent from one smart Grineer to some others and at the end of it he closes by saying that if you did not understand all that was written "SEND DRAGA-KILL TENNO-HELP BROTHERS"

 

Those are some very simply commands there.

 

They were untelligent because they were KEPT from learning by the Orokin, because they didn't need them to be anything but slave miners. They were PERFECTLY capable of thought, of reasoning, of planning and of thinking - we see that when the works turn on the two Orokin in the Eviscerator synth - they were only dumb because they'd never been taught anything, they KNEW how to SPEAK even. Communicate in English to pete's sake!

 

In the end, they were HUMAN, sapient and all that comes with it. What the Orokin were doing was WRONG. It was slavery. You can't say "well, they were mentally handicapped and use that as justification for slavery!

Edited September 3, 2015 by Morec0