Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[CRCGamer]

Where did you even hear this? Because this is the BEST case scenario, and should be what the community moderators or anyone who caught this should be saying right now if they want to forums to stop burning with the multishot threads. In every thread so far, no one has mentioned this at all. 

 

I'd chalk it up to optimistic thinking on their part, because I've certainly not seen any signs of that from anywhere else.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Why can't all the cool kids play the game without using it and the super-duper-uncool kids play with it?

 

What happened to choices?

Everyone wants to be endgame ready, which means being able to put out as much damage as possible, because enemies are going to become nearly infinitely durable.

[low1991]

Multi-shot

More than 1 bullet coming out at the same time. 1 pull of the trigger producing 2 bullets simultaneously.

Keyword is simultaneous.

You forgot, 'at the cost of additional ammo'! meaning when it happen, i cost 2 ammo instead of 1!

With the new multi-shot change.

Edited September 5, 2015 by low1991

[fatpig84]

The issue is that it changes nothing.

It just makes the meta more elitist.

 

 

First, more people will demand Corrosive projection more than ever. This is simple.

Less sustained damage, means we have to maximize whatever we can get.

Right now you can walk into a 40 wave or 60 wave def and even without 4x CP, no one bats an eyelid.

With the changes, you bet 4x CP will be much more heavily enforced.

 

 

More ammo issues also a push towards more power spam frames.

The game is power spammy enough as it is.

Why is DE encouraging more press 4 to boom options when so many people already complain about this ?

[peekitea]

Everyone wants to be endgame ready, which means being able to put out as much damage as possible, because enemies are going to become nearly infinitely durable.

 

End game really is the only reason to play Warframe. I mean seriously. We don't play random missions just because we want to usually. If we do, it's to level up gear. 

[Zeromanicus]

Ammo scarcity already makes a lot of weapons unfun to use.

[EmptyDevil]

You forgot, 'at the cost of additional ammo'! meaning when it happen, i cost 2 ammo instead of 1!

With the new multi-shot change.

 

Nope i didn't forget it. The point still stands that multi-shot =/= fire rate.

[vash2pid]

Welp, nevermind.

Edited September 5, 2015 by vash2pid

[Slifar]

Where did you even hear this? Because this is the BEST case scenario, and should be what the community moderators or anyone who caught this should be saying right now if they want to forums to stop burning with the multishot threads. In every thread so far, no one has mentioned this at all. 

 

I don't even think this was even in the stream.

 

https://youtu.be/rgIQPIKgdFk?t=1730

"And this is a nightmare, because you're going to have to re-balance a lot of guns."

 

Translation: We're going to have to re-balance all of the guns. Wait, that didn't need a translation.... Hmm.... 

 

That's basically dev-speak for what I said above. While it IS possible they'd rebalance them in some OTHER way, I think we can all agree that would be very, very dumb and not particularly likely. 

 

Perhaps I should add this to the post?

 

Only thing being... DE doesn't have a good track record of doing such sweeping changes cleanly. Like at all.

 

Blocking on most melee is currently a bad joke courtesy of Parkour 2.0 and channel blocking is stupidly overpriced.

There are a notable number of weapons that got dumpstered with Damage 2.0 that are *still* in that state.

 

And with how we know our damage scaling against enemy stat inflation works I'd be very suprised if even *half* our currently available weapons come out of this intact. All hail the coming age of Latron Prime, Opticor, Lex Prime, etc.

See, this isn't fair.

 

Compare Melee 2.0 with Melee 1.0.

 

Compare Damage 2.0 overall with damage 1.0 (I.E. penetration damage or lolusuck)

 

Were these a bit rough? Yes. Did they benefit the game as a whole? Yes. More stuff became viable than got destroyed, an overall net gain for the game. 

[low1991]

I guess DE didn't think of secondaries. They have 180% multishot. So i guess  rip already bad ammo economy having synoid gammacor and aksomati.

 

Does DE even play their own game. Just keep the old multishot or rework the whole damage system again. Enemy scaling is bad and ammo economy is already an  issue on many weapons. 

 

This year of quality is more like year of nerfing all the stuff you like. Also status builds on weapons would go down the drain with this purposed change and ammo mutation would become mandatory on most weapons that have semi decent and poor ammo economy. It would just make mutation forced on most weapons and cause carrier use increase. 

+1 to 'Year of Nerfing'

[peekitea]

The issue is that it changes nothing.

It just makes the meta more elitist.

 

 

First, more people will demand Corrosive projection more than ever. This is simple.

Less sustained damage, means we have to maximize whatever we can get.

Right now you can walk into a 40 wave or 60 wave def and even without 4x CP, no one bats an eyelid.

With the changes, you bet 4x CP will be much more heavily enforced.

 

 

More ammo issues also a push towards more power spam frames.

The game is power spammy enough as it is.

Why is DE encouraging more press 4 to boom options when so many people already complain about this ?

 

And then before you know it, they take away the stacking on corrosive projection, because I wasn't "made" to be stacked. I don't know what is wrong with just letting things be the way they are now. Not to mention the work we do in crafting forma and catalysts, ranking these mods and trying to perfect our weapons. Changing the weapon multishot is going to be like pee in a cup on a record player. It's too hard to aim for something that is needlessly balanced. 

 

Yeah. Did you already see all of the people stating how they "use Mesa anyways". I wonder what people are going to do when they can't rely on their nerfed to the floor 4 spam. 

[Lost_Cartographer]

End game really is the only reason to play Warframe. I mean seriously. We don't play random missions just because we want to usually. If we do, it's to level up gear. 

The definition of endgame is so loose as to be nearly impossible to specify.  Is end game level 40, level 60, level 100?

 

There comes a point where it actually doesn't matter and it's just whatever people set for themselves.  And at that point, nothing DE can do nerf/balance wise would prevent a $#!%storm from those that had a pre-determined point that was made harder or impossible to reach.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Littleman88

[Sebastianx]

I'm all for making it eat double the ammo...as long as every multishot mod also gets an equal increase in clip size and ammo pick-up ;)

[Lost_Cartographer]

+1 to 'Year of Nerfing'

Quality includes balancing and fixing bugs.

 

They never promised "quality" to mean only things we'd like.

[Xero_Kaiser]

 While it IS true that they may not raise the power level of the guns up to EXACTLY where they are now (They stated that they're not happy with how guns completely overshadow most powers end-game), any overall decrease to the damage will ultimately be one that would come regardless from the change, as DE has judged it necessary to help even out the power differentials between weapons and warframes. 

 

Well, they're going to have to do something drastic with Warframe abilities if they don't want that to be the case, because nerfing guns alone won't change that.  I'm not even at endgame and I can already see that a lot of damage-based abilities (outside of something like Exalted Blade) cost too much and do too little.  Why would I burn 100 energy to take out a handful of guys only to have 100 more enemies immediately charge me?  It's a waste even at my level and I can only imagine it gets worse as you go up.  You could drop multishot from the game entirely and it would change nothing about this.  

[fatpig84]

And then before you know it, they take away the stacking on corrosive projection, because I wasn't "made" to be stacked. I don't know what is wrong with just letting things be the way they are now. Not to mention the work we do in crafting forma and catalysts, ranking these mods and trying to perfect our weapons. Changing the weapon multishot is going to be like pee in a cup on a record player. It's too hard to aim for something that is needlessly balanced. 

 

Yeah. Did you already see all of the people stating how they "use Mesa anyways". I wonder what people are going to do when they can't rely on their nerfed to the floor 4 spam. 

 

I main Loki (together with lolki Prime) so my guns are exceptionally valued to me.

Because I relied on all my gear to do all the killing.

 

I guess I will just play invisibility and just abuse the 4x stealth melee modifier as long as I can, before I know it DE removes the stealth melee modifier too durr !

[fatpig84]

I'm all for making it eat double the ammo...as long as every multishot mod also gets an equal increase in clip size and ammo pick-up ;)

It will not happen.

DE explicitly said that they don't like how we are dealing too much damage.

Why would they make changes that won't change the status quo ?

[Otenko]

This thread does a nice job of summarizing the facts stated in the devstream. This is especially useful for players that heard about the change on a superficial level but didn't realize that DE was rebalancing weapon stats in accordance with the change.

 

However, the cynic in me believes that weapons that already have stat issues within the current system won't be sufficiently compensated for the change in multishot mechanics.  The below assumes the worst-case scenario in which no weapon receives stat changes.

 

In particular, I mean gun with smaller magazine sizes and longer reload times (Snipetron, Vulkar, Kraken, Simulor, Grinlok, and Lex are some examples) and burst-fire weapons with low magazine sizes (Sybaris, arguably Kraken) are going to be the weapons that suffer the most from this change.

 

Burst-fire guns will now have unreliable amounts of bursts per magazine if multishot is not an integer multiple of 100%, i.e. 1 shot of the burst will "multishoot" while the other does not proc multishot. Take the Sybaris for example, which might have mag size that goes from 10 -> 7 -> 5 -> 1 -> 0. Considering how people seemed to take issue with Sicarus Prime having only 20 bullets versus 21, I have a feeling that this will cause Burst weapons to be less desirable by the populace due to odd burst amounts.

 

Additionally, guns with low magazine size and long reload times are going to sporadically spend significantly more time reloading. In an (extreme) case, the Snipetron has 4 bullets and spends 3.5 seconds reloading (unmodded in either stat). With this change, you have a chance to go from 4 -> 2 -> 0, to reloading for 3.5 seconds. You'll end up spending an exceedingly long time reloading which could be a huge hit to guns like the Vulkar.

 

On top of that, most snipers are known to have the problem where "multishot headshots" or "crit headshots" are the only factors that result in enemy (heavies) kills. Having multishot apply in this fashion could mean you either pick between "killing the enemy in one shot" versus flexibility in using your 4-6 shots as you please but resulting in more shots being necessary to drop an enemy. Considering that snipers and other low fire-rate are already thought to be in a bad place, this could be an issue.

 

I'm not sure how they'd deal with the changes since usually DE's changes differ a bit from community made threads. But let's just see where this circumstance takes us.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Otenko

[peekitea]

I main Loki (together with lolki Prime) so my guns are exceptionally valued to me.

Because I relied on all my gear to do all the killing.

 

I guess I will just play invisibility and just abuse the 4x stealth melee modifier as long as I can, before I know it DE removes the stealth melee modifier too durr !

 

I remember a couple of devstreams I viewed I found out that DE adopted an attitude where they actively are trying to stop our "gimmicks", probably around the time of when poor greedy Mag got her pointless nerf. Any play style that works well is viewed to work "too well" for them. If they want to make the game harder, I say work on enemy AI. Make it like the new metal gear game. Not actively deduce the player.

[rizzimusprime]

For me the problem is not about the practicality or the logic behind the change. And let's be straightforward here, warframe is far from logical. The issue I have is that this is a poor business tactic. The mod when it was released did not work as intended and they knew about it. Did they make an attempt to fix it within a timely manner after release? Sadly the answer is no. They just "rolled with it" as stated in the devstream. So now you have a community that modded and form'd their weapons a specific way. Now everyone will have to change the way they mod which was also quoted in the devstream. Their policy is pretty much if it works and it's fun then nerf it. If it sucks then give it an overhaul and repeat this process. It's one of the oldest business practices in the book. Which in the long run = more profit and $$$ for them. But its also the exact reason why I don't play or support games like that anymore. I shouldn't have to change how I like to play or stop using my favorite gear/loadouts cause you change one or two stats.

Just my 2 cents...please don't crucify me for speaking my mind. There is already enough of that in social media.

[TheBrsrkr]

I do not know why you spend time in telling people they shouldn't complain. In fact, I find it funny. Make ten more threads. Please.

THere is a huge difference between "don't complain" and "stop raging".

Edited September 5, 2015 by TheBrsrkr

[Storchenbein]

 

All hail my mighty MS paint skills

 

I guess we'll have to wait and see how they'll handle it. But I'm not putting too much faith into DE here.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Storchenbein

[(XBOX)AyersyBears]

End game really is the only reason to play Warframe. I mean seriously. We don't play random missions just because we want to usually. If we do, it's to level up gear. 

 

Very general statement that you seem to apply to everyone. While a lot of people probably do this, many don't.

 

I agree with OP. A lot of people are to quick to rage over upcoming changes, when they don't actually know all the changes, and haven't even tried it out yet. 

[Lost_Cartographer]

These kind of threads are basically a meme now.

 

[insert change/tweak/fix/nerf] will probably be what finally kills Warframe for me.

 

A large majority of people are completely overlooking the fact that DE said they will be looking at ammo pools to make sure the change isn't detrimental to weapons. 

 

Also, how would this change make multi-shot a fire rate mod? There is a very distinct difference between multi-shot and fire rate.

 

Multi-shot

 

More than 1 bullet coming out at the same time. 1 pull of the trigger producing 2 bullets simultaneously.

 

Keyword is simultaneous.

 

Fire rate

 

Frequency of bullets leaving the barrel consecutively.

 

Keyword is consecutively.

So you have one gun with a 40 round mag firing 2 rounds per shot at 10 rounds per second.

 

Then you have another gun with a 40 round mag firing 1 round per shot at 20 rounds per second.

 

Which one empties first?

 

Is that difference in any way at all significant to warrant one over the other?  

 

Have you considered accuracy and recoil?  In the end, recoil will really be the only defining factor as to whether rate of fire or multi-shot is the preferable choice.  For example, a Lex would probably get more mileage from multi-shot than it would from fire rate.  A high RPS weapon might benefit more from rate of fire, especially if you're the type to sweep bullets across an area to kill a group.

 

In the end, if you have a +100% fire rate mode, and a 100% chance for an additional round mod, you're spending the same amount of ammunition to get the same results in nearly the same amount of time.  Hence why people are pointing it out as being "a fire rate mod."  Before, it was like a nightmare version of serration/hornet strike with +status and +crit chance.

 

Frankly, I feel this change is going to just be uninspired.  I would have much preferred a straight nerf to the chance, or simply dividing the damage between each bullet fired without consuming extra ammo, that way the mod is strictly about providing additional crit and status proc chances.

[peekitea]

THere is a huge difference between "don't complain" and "stop raging".

 

Not really. 

 

Very general statement that you seem to apply to everyone. While a lot of people probably do this, many don't.

 

I agree with OP. A lot of people are to quick to rage over upcoming changes, when they don't actually know all the changes, and haven't even tried it out yet. 

 

I do not agree with OP. Even if the changes have not been implemented, it doesn't mean people should stop having an issue with a huge change that affects gameplay mechanics, despite there being little to no information about it. Dubiously so.