“Mandatory Or Convenient?” Turbulent Changes Ahead

[Kracken]

Most of you are aware, or at least heard something, about the changes in the so-called “mandatory” mods.

There was a descriptive statement of interest about the future of those mods, should any changes be implemented. Sadly, this statement was silenced by quarrels and talks of refunds.

(Please do not to confuse “mandatory” with “convenient.”)

Those words should serve you (the player) and developers as a fundamental foundation, to be used in the future improvements of weapons/frames.

Allow me to elaborate (and maybe entertain you for a bit):

You may not know how a car is built – but I bet you have a good idea as to what each car needs to be drivable/usable (similar to the weapons you use). For a car to work it needs its mandatory parts. Only with some time and space we could install other necessary parts or some nifty cool upgrades (see where I'm going with this).

Let’s substitute a car frame for a rifle loadout: the Serration mod is our engine; Multishot is our fuel; and Shred is our wheels. Additional mods could be the doors, seats, radio, etc. The point is, without the three mandatory mods we wouldn't get very far.

You can change the fuel to a more expensive, less efficient one. You can break the engine, pierce the wheals. But this does not change the fact that they are still needed! The change must be done in the foundations of these components (or in the car) so the car may move without them. Regardless of how the changes will be made in our current part regarding ammunition consumption by the changes discussed by Glen.

As I understand the change, current weapons with large magazines will not even feel those changes, and the players themselves are more likely to use "restore ammo" more. The weapons with small magazines ... This change may "kill" them. Rather than shoot 4 times, you shoot 2 times and in extreme cases you may have to wait to change the magazine 3s.

Even when you raise the amount of ammo consumption, all those changes will be more burdensome/annoying for the player, and will not help him/her choose the right mods.

If I’m remembering correctly, over a year ago there was a popular topic about Serration. The proposed idea was that weapons will deal more damage (%) per rank. This is something deserving your consideration.

I’m very curious what you all think?

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

I must be tired. I read TURBULENCE changes.

 

Had me scared they were touching my Zeph.

 

LoL!!

 

I will comment later after the scare hype has left me.

 

Cheers

[(PSN)PeetSquared]

While I can agree with the notion of this thread...I just gotta ask: Is Shred considered a 'mandatory' mod? I ask because I hardly ever use it and don't actually see it in most people's builds.

[-.SP.-G43riel]

I must be tired. I read TURBULENCE changes.

 

Had me scared they were touching my Zeph.

 

LoL!!

 

I will comment later after the scare hype has left me.

 

Cheers

me too...

me too...

[Kracken]

While I can agree with the notion of this thread...I just gotta ask: Is Shred considered a 'mandatory' mod? I ask because I hardly ever use it and don't actually see it in most people's builds.

Most of my elaborate where based on Glen words from the last Dev stream when he pointed that Serration, Multishot and Shred are the " trinity " mods for an average rifle.

 

As each of us can have different play style. each of us can mod each weapon differently. My idea is not to point which mod is mandatory, but how the mechanics need to change behind those mandatory mods.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Cracken

[Kaotyke]

To me, Mods like Serration and Split Chamber are mandatory if you want to go far in the game, every weapon has to have them and that limits me greatly in terms of costumization.

 

Serration/Hornet Strike are needed to kill the more powerful enemies, I cant see myself not using any of those so they are mandatory for the bullet sponge enemies. The "Weapon strenght raises with the rank" is an idea that I've first seen years ago but was never put in game, with the Multishot change it means we will have a lower killing potential and that means DE will have to look at enemy scaling so they might really become optional instead of mandatory:

 

Say we need 30 bullets to kill an enemy and we use 10s to unload those bullets, with the new Multishot we will still need to use 30 bullets, but the Time to Kill will go down to 5s (if 100% Multishot)

 

I'm in a wait-and-see mentality, they just started to look at it, we will see next Devstream.

 

 

While I can agree with the notion of this thread...I just gotta ask: Is Shred considered a 'mandatory' mod? I ask because I hardly ever use it and don't actually see it in most people's builds.

No... Not really, its a mod that you use for convinience against large crowds, you do less damage, but hit more than 1 enemy if they are behind each another, bullet hoes and laser weapons benefit more because faster fire rate = more damage but you use ammo faster.

 

I use Shred on my Braton Prime because I can give stats to a lot of enemies at once.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Kao-Snake

[7grims]

Even when you raise the amount of ammo consumption, all those changes will be more burdensome/annoying for the player, and will not help him/her choose the right mods.

 

Think that is the point, the last time they spoke, they said something like "making them unwanted" making them "as worth or desirable as all other mods".

 

Also, LOL, the crazy arguments ppl are starting too use to explain the deep issue, cars hehehe

Hope ppl get it and stop panicking, for once DE is actually making a substantial and meaningful change.

[Katinka]

If you are only taking about three mods then Split Chamber is actually not as good as an elemental mod chosen for the faction you are facing.  Split Chamber only gets really good when combined with elements too as it multiplies instead of adding.

[Kinetos]

While I can agree with the notion of this thread...I just gotta ask: Is Shred considered a 'mandatory' mod? I ask because I hardly ever use it and don't actually see it in most people's builds.

I don't think so, I only use it on a few rifles. Tiberon to hit more targets, Soma so I can hit targets behind corpses that haven't fallen over yet, and it adds just the right amount of fire rate. Don't use it on any other rifles I don't think..., oh, Supra. Because getting as much fire rate and Multishot out of that as possible while using Hall of Mirrors is fun.

[7grims]

 with the Multishot change it means we will have a lower killing potential and that means DE will have to look at enemy scaling so they might really become optional instead of mandatory:

 

They will, they already stated that.

The crazy DE fools were going to do all that work just for multishot xD how mental is that? lol

Good thing they came to their senses and saw it was not a 1 mod problem, but all the mod system.

Even for frames, which I want desperately to see DE recognizing it too.

Edited September 11, 2015 by 7grims

[Brasten]

The core problem remains Infinite Enemy Stat Scaling. Until that is finally capped off DE cannot really do any kind of balance pass to be rid of "mandatory damage" mods.

 

It's just simple math. You can't balance out Stats system that scales to infinity on an exponential curve.

[DangerDaddy]

Personally I feel like the changes to Multishot will literally turn them into a gamblers attack speed mods, since multishot will have a 50% to be higher or lower than an equal % speed mod.

 

For Serration/etc being changed to base weapon being upgraded over its levels: I like it, if it gets around the same strength as a rank 5+ serration'd version, then it makes sense; more experience with the weapon should make it more effective to use.

 

but really both of these will lower over all DPS and make it so that later in the game you'll not be as damaging or powerful.

[DxAdder]

I read it, I get it BUT the changes really only effect those who play Endless Missions.

 

Normal Missions any small loss of DPS will barley be felt.

[Mak_Gohae]

I dont understand this concept of "mandatory mods" for weapons.

In video games you area always looking for a stronger weapon. You will drop whatever weapon you have for a weapon that has better stats. The only time that you may no is when sidegrades where you accomplish something else. For example, a weapon that has less damage but a higher parry stat that you can use for a defense kit.

 

This better weapon advancement applies in this game, too. But in this game instead of it being the total replacement of a weapon you just advance the weapon itself with a stat modifier you add yourself. You create your better weapon.

 

So how many mandatory mods exist in warframe? 2? 3? Serration, multishot, and shred?

Is that really a lot? Are 2 or 3 slots really hurting the build of every weapon?

Given that people generally min\max the only thing that will happen if Serration and MS is taken away is that OTHER dmg mods will replace them. Nothing really is going to change. I guess the one thing that will change is that you will not need to spend a lot of core and cred building up Serration or HS.

 

On top of that taking away S\HS and the MS mod means that the whole game needs to be rebalanced because this affects difficulty as well. 

 

These changes are not just about a mod, these changes are total combat mechanic changes.

I think this MS change, if it happens like it has been mentioned, is going to bring along another enemy rank change.

[Kaotyke]

They will, they already stated that.

The crazy DE fools were going to do all that work just for multishot xD how mental is that? lol

Good thing they came to their senses and saw it was not a 1 mod problem, but all the mod system.

Even for frames, which I want desperately to see DE recognizing it too.

Did they say that in the stream? Because the only thing I remember was they saying they have to "look at a lot of guns".

[DxAdder]

I dont understand this concept of "mandatory mods" for weapons.

In video games you area always looking for a stronger weapon. You will drop whatever weapon you have for a weapon that has better stats. The only time that you may no is when sidegrades where you accomplish something else. For example, a weapon that has less damage but a higher parry stat that you can use for a defense kit.

 

This better weapon advancement applies in this game, too. But in this game instead of it being the total replacement of a weapon you just advance the weapon itself with a stat modifier you add yourself. You create your better weapon.

 

So how many mandatory mods exist in warframe? 2? 3? Serration, multishot, and shred?

Is that really a lot? Are 2 or 3 slots really hurting the build of every weapon?

Given that people generally min\max the only thing that will happen if Serration and MS is taken away is that OTHER dmg mods will replace them. Nothing really is going to change. I guess the one thing that will change is that you will not need to spend a lot of core and cred building up Serration or HS.

 

On top of that taking away S\HS and the MS mod means that the whole game needs to be rebalanced because this affects difficulty as well. 

 

These changes are not just about a mod, these changes are total combat mechanic changes.

I think this MS change, if it happens like it has been mentioned, is going to bring along another enemy rank change.

 

From a min/max perspective ALL 8 slots are taken:

Mulitshot

Serration

Shred

Heavy Caliber

4 Elements (Or swap out two for Crits)

 

But again this only applies to Endless Missions, other that that you can put what ever you want and have no issues.

[Kracken]

you don't even need to go far to feel real pressure with " not doing enough damage" in some cases (excluding heavy units). Just go to rank 20 enemies and you start to feel the difference in difficulty without serration if you don't have the good gear.

[Monybags33]

I must be tired. I read TURBULENCE changes.

 

Had me scared they were touching my Zeph.

 

LoL!!

 

I will comment later after the scare hype has left me.

 

Cheers

First thing I thought myself, funny. Anyones on topic I think the point was too bring "fairness" too other mods and not make just some mods "staples" into every weapon overtime for every occasion. Then again that mainly will happen with anything but its a bit redundant lately with the typical mod set most have on their guns too the point of "Why bother with anything else other then damage mods alone"?

[Kracken]

Devstream #60 did some clarification.

 

Multishot will not be the only one mod that will be changed(serration is on that mod list). The changes will be on bigger scale - that will include leveling up and enemy scaling.

 

Personally i'm also interested and a little afraid of those changes. Afraid because it's a big " ? " for both our current builds/polarities and what we will get at the end. Knowing someone those changes will have a "few" tweaks before we will see the end product (counting the dmg types changes). Nevertheless in the end no one should be aggrieved by those changes. 

Interested because they will do nearly exactly what i'm trying to say in the first post. The concept of mandatory mods will be changed.

I don't think of them as on the same lvl as " blowing up " the void with was the MOD 2.0. It should be something refreshing.

 

IMO all the thing in the game that are tweaked should benefit both new player and veterans. 

 

What do you think ?  Should that stop only at Weapons ?

 

Here some sources: 

AM-Bunny Devstream #60 overview

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/530185-devstream-60-overview/?p=5946099

 

Multishot Changes

• Going to be very large in scope - this will affect all mandatory mods

• This will also change enemy scaling

• Will be addressing Serration as well

• Experimenting with base damage increasing as weapon levels up rather than being tied to a mod

• Players will be compensated in the event anything is taken from them

 

Quiette Shy Devstream #60 Abridged

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaKHZ3QAokI

[Deejudanne]

De confirmed for a few months ago that THEY WILL NOT TOUCH ZEPHYR.

[(XBOX)Archibald Jax]

Bah, I have already started ditching multishot on several of my frequently used guns. Damage mods remain, but multishot is not that important. I still find it curious how it appears to be a rather recent development, loud whiners prattling in about how horrible it is that we have these so-called manditory mods. Nothing is manditory, just some builds are fun yet ineffective or inefficient, others are designed to murder everything as efficiently as possible but may be less fun. Just like some of the weapons themselves fall on both sides of the equation. Just another case of people with nothing important to complain about creating a reason to complain, in my opinion.

[Kracken]

De confirmed for a few months ago that THEY WILL NOT TOUCH ZEPHYR.

 

This topic is not about Zephyr ... Read the op.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Cracken

[Bhargo]

Say we need 30 bullets to kill an enemy and we use 10s to unload those bullets, with the new Multishot we will still need to use 30 bullets, but the Time to Kill will go down to 5s (if 100% Multishot)

That is nowhere near what would happen with the new multishot. The TTK would stay exactly the same. With the new multishot we would be firing the same number of bullets in the same amount of time, we would only be expending ammunition instead of it being free damage. It is a flat nerf any way you slice it, and makes multishot far weaker, effectively requiring ammo mods to compensate for it. The worst part is it would hurt the weapons that need it the most to function well, that being weapons with poor ammo economy.

[(PSN)NachoZissou]

I have concerns about these possible changes. It seems to me that some of the more vocal supporters of a rework to the modding system are bored vets who want change for the sake of it. Some of them I've seen admit they don't even play the game anymore. I think if you were to do an extensive survey of people that actually do play the game day in day out (not just forum members) then you'd see that the vast majority would say they like the modding system as it is.

I also don't see the big deal about there currently supposedly being a lack of modding choice. I use utility mods on loads of my weapons and while it's true you won't be able to last five hours in a T4 with them how the flip is that relevant. You can drop several damage mods and still have a perfectly functioning gun that will take you through the starchart. You don't need the game to change for you, you can mod with as many utility mods as you want right now.

I don't think the idea of a weapon increasing in power from rank 0 to 30 is a strong one. It's far too quick and easy to do, no sense of progression. Ranking up your damage mods takes time and effort (something some vets may have forgotten as it was so long ago for them) and is a tangible way to mark your progress and keep your nose to the grindstone. Like it or not, this is an integral part of the appeal of Warframe, the grind with rewards along the way.

Last but not least my biggest concern is that a complete rework has the potential to royally **** everything up which could result in droves of more casual players leaving and never coming back which none of us want. It's a big, big risk. I really think it would be wise to let sleeping dogs lie on this one.

[ThunderZsolt]

OP:

 

applying your example:

now you need serration, split chamber and elementals (not shred) to get anywhere, true. you need to use mod slots for them, so your 'car' aka your weapon comes without basic functionality.

 

the devs recognized that, so they'll rebalance weapons, so they'll be useful without these mods. That also means that they have to change the mandatory mods, because without it all weapons would be OP.

 

So, your car will have its engine and wheels by default, and you'll have serration and split chamber turned into a turbo charger or a larger tire if you think you want to go faster - but others may prefer air conditioning or automatic transmission (shame on them) for that cost

 

 

this is what they meant to get 'in line' with the other mods.