Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[P.E.R.]

/* My dreams about next Saryn rework, don't pay attention

 

1st skill [saryn create circle of life on the floor, that looks like grass, which increases health regeneration for ally and slows enemies]

 

2nd skill [saryn plant flower bud that work like a turret. If it is planted outside the circle of life/grass, bud produces a shockwave as shockwave moa. If it is planted inside the circle of life/grass, bud grows up and produces a pheromone that attracts enemies.]

 

3rd skil [saryn throws out from itself infected seeds. If they fall outside the circle of life/grass, turn into a little bombs that explode with viral damage when contact with enemy. If they fall inside the circle of life/grass, seeds grows up and turn into nature tentacles that damage nearby enemies.]

 

4tg skill [saryn opens her spores and free toxin gas behind until she has energy. This skill can be turn on/off. Cloud of toxin gas increase slow and damage from 1st, 2nd, 3rd skills. If this cloud contact with Heat/Cold/Electricity damage, covert toxin to Gas/Viral/Corrosive.] *\

 

So for a long time I did not write here...but i love old Saryn <3

[Heatnix.]

It seems like when people are calculating Saryn's current max damage, don't we also have to consider that Saryn reaches max damage only enemies are virally proc'd? As in when they will have their health already cut in half?

 

Also if you have a molt clone up with spores when you cast miasma, that will also explode with extra damage.

 

If we add these factors in then what does it look like?

 

About the same as before.

 

Worst of it all is that you won't survive making a molt and aiming spores at it and then using Miasma. Your energy is all spent to do that for once and second you need to be close and have enemies close to do all of this which you can't... cause she will die on lack of HP.

[Gelkor]

If you've played this game long enough, you'll realize that "press one button to kill everything" is not a niche that DE wants any frame to fill. Any frame that becomes that, gets changed.

[PsycloneM]

Spores (Rank 3) (U17.10.1)

• Base damage per second increased from 10  to 20 .
• Burst damage of 25  is unchanged but now has a 100% status chance.
• Initial spore count reduced from 6 to 3.
• Spread spore count reduced from 4 to 3.
• Burst damage from spread spores is now affected by power strength.
• Power duration reduced from 15 s to 12 s.
• Damage is dealt once per second as before, but there are no reduced damage ticks for non-integer durations (e.g., if Spores' duration is 18.6 seconds, there will be no extra damage tick for the final 0.6 seconds).
• Spread radius of 16 m is unchanged and is now affected by power range.
• Burst damage now spreads across the entire spread radius and is unaffected by falloff.
• Cast range of 60 m is unchanged.
• If a host is affected by a Toxin DoT, popping a spore on the host will increase the burst damage to 25 + 25% of the initial base damage that triggered the Toxin DoT as  Viral damage (affected by power strength) with a 100% status chance for both Viral and Toxin effects. The ensuing Toxin DoT will deal 50% of the burst damage per tick as  Toxin damage as usual. All toxin DoTs on the host are combined into a single DoT when transferred to surrounding enemies. Only one spore on the host can transfer Toxin damage until the host becomes affected by another Toxin DoT.
• Spores can be cast without interruption.
• Spores can be cast on Molt. Spore's damage will not be applied on Molt. When Molt explodes, all spores will burst simultaneously and affect enemies within the spread radius.
• With Toxic Lash activated, spores become easier to burst with melee strikes.

 

Burst damage on spread spores not being affected by power strength was an old bug that's been around for as long as I can remember. This mechanic along with the spread radius being affected by power range are good QoL improvements.

 

In the time that I've tested, I have noticed that I'm capable of spreading spores across the map with greater efficiency. I'm also noticing that enemies with AoE attacks are able to burst and spread spores on their own, including volatile runner explosions, bombard rockets, ground pounds from heavy units, and blast damage from boilers and their pods. I'm sure there are other examples.

 

Regarding Spores' capability of spreading Toxin damage, if I have a weapon that deals 100 base damage, and I have +165% bonus base damage from mods like Serration, let's assume I produce a Toxin DoT on an enemy. If I cast Spores on that enemy and pop one of the spores, the burst damage will inflict 25 + 0.25 x 100 x ( 1 + 1.65 ) = ~91 Viral damage within the spread radius with a 100% status chance for both Viral and Toxin effects. The proceeding Toxin DoT will deal 91 x 0.5 = ~46 Toxin damage per second (11 total ticks) over 10 seconds (+25% status effect duration from Saryn's passive).

 

If I produce 10 similar DoTs on an enemy and follow the same procedure, the burst damage will be equal to 25 + 0.25 x 100 x ( 1 + 1.65 ) x 10 = ~688 Viral damage, and ~344 Toxin damage per second will be dealt over the DoT's duration. Multiple Toxin DoTs on the host are combined into a single DoT when spread with Spores.

 

Here's an example:

+165% base damage, +30% power strength, 

( 120 x ( 1 + 1.65 ) x 0.25 + 25 ) x 1.3 = 135 rounded down. Notice the double proc with Viral and Toxin as mentioned previously.

 

 

Spores was already a solid ability prior to Hotfix 17.10.1, and I initially made suggestions regarding improved hitboxes for spores and allowing spores to linger on death. I've come to realize that those suggestions really aren't necessary as there are a multitude of ways to burst spores. Now with the latest hotfix, even enemy death can spread spores at a reduced radius. Spores is a powerful ability in my opinion.

Edited November 6, 2015 by PsycloneM

[RealPandemonium]

Spores spread gas? o.o

No, but they spread Toxin procs, which is what Gas procs cause in (AOE!)

 

 TRIPLE damage miasma, of which the base damage was supposed to have been buffed.

Miasma base damage per tick was nerfed slightly, from 375 to 350.  However, the current max synergized Miasma (x3 damage with Viral and Toxin proc both active) is only 10% weaker than the old negative duration Miasma base damage (4200 vs 4500.)  However, because you can actually use Spore effectively alongside Miasma, enemies will effectively take double damage from it, which makes the new Miasma's maxcase 86% stronger than old negative duration Miasma.  

 

Instead of buffing three skills and nerfing the fourth one, I think they should have redone her skillset froom the start. Toxic Lash is still useless, and she basically changed from "spam 4" to "spam 2 & 1, then 4". Still spamming, same effect, but takes a more time to kill and spends more energy.

Let's face it, half of her skills are made just to set up Miasma. This much sinergy makes her dependant to Trinity for costant energy and makes builds less personal. There's just one way to build her right now, and it's investing into Miasma. You can't choose between utility, CC or damage like you do with Volt or Ash.

Sorry DE, but I don't like it. It wasn't good before, but now it's even worse.

Lolno.  Spore is reliable and easy to spread (except with some weapons; remember to report bugs!) Molt has new synergy with Miasma and Spore, Toxic Lash offers a significant damage increase and an added defensive bonus in melee mode, and Miasma can be boosted with a single cast of Spore and some Ignis spam.  I won't deny that Ignis makes Miasma much more efficient, but a dedicated melee user can use Toxic Lash to be almost as effective, with any melee weapon.  Thrown melee is especially effective, and a sentinel modded for Toxin/Gas procs (Gas/Electric Vulklok, anyone?) can also help set up maxcase Miasmas.  

 

Saryn does not do well with enemies over lvl 50.

 

----She can't take damage from them without heavy losses (regenerative molt can only regenerate so much but if you are geting 2-shot'ed there's nothing to do.

----- She doesn't deal any sort of good damage to enemies past 60. And yes I have a corrosive projection slotted in for void testing.

 

Saryn combos are too risky and long to perfrom for the poor outcome you get out of them. You end up dying when you run in middle of the enemies preparing your molt to do some decent damage. You have no stun other than miasma but you can't afford to spam miasma anymore. you need molt to heal and to empower miasma but you need to cast your number 1 on it before you die or the molt dies which usually happens faster.

I've been running just regen molt and no other durability mods against level 60 Grineer.  Works fine unless I play like a retard.

 

Perma Viral on every enemy on the tile is pretty damn good for enemies over 50.  What direct damage powers work well past level 50 Grineer without CPs, anyway?  If anything a properly played Saryn is better off than most due to free Viral procs.  

 

Also, try casting the Molt in midair while aim-gliding  toward the camera and use 1 as you drift away from it; works every time since you can't really miss.

Edited November 5, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Xiusa]

...and check! Yep, that's everything on the "Is it a bad post" list!

[Sannidor]

Oh boy, one of these.....

 

>I'm one of "these" who exactly?

 

Firstly, this has nothing to do with Saryn Prime, at all. More health isn't going to magically fix all her problems.

 

>You admit there are problems but claim life decrease is not one of them?  Because now we need SOME buff - life or energy. YES it has to do a lot with priming frames as long all are upgrades and prime access exists and brings solid income to DE.

 

Next up I don't see much feedback around here. I see lots of arguments on what is and isn't acceptable but even in THIS thread, the thread created by our liaison with DE, people came here to whine and nothing else. "This rework sucks" why? Against what? How do we fix it? "GG DE I'M DONE saryn is useless frame now" because so much gets done when that happens.

 

>Well, focus more, maybe? Ignore "press 4 to kill was good" posts and see constructive ideas. Casting spores to all surfaces to create traps is a good one IMO. Most players are aware they have to operate on these new conditions so "change 3rd to xxx doing xxx is unlikely to happen. 

 

Not every augment in the game was voted on by the DC. About half of them were, and some didn't even win the poll and ended up as augments anyway. Augments were not designed to buff the ability, but to change how you use it.

 

>Open your inventory or wiki and see all the augments again. Not designed to buff? Most are nothing but buffs and should always be part of original powers. 

 

And thinking that frames are nerfed for PvE when almost none of the frames have identical PvP and PvE stats is quite simply ridiculous.

 

>Yes, ridiculous indeed but it happened already, several times. Weapon gets nerf for PvE, "accidentaly" it affects PvE and it never works the same way again, like JK slam and many more. On the side: "Warframe is PvE game, stop nerfing things we want to have fun" argument is weakened when PvE exists even if only 10% of players does conclave.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Sannidor

[Educated_Beast]

If you've played this game long enough, you'll realize that "press one button to kill everything" is not a niche that DE wants any frame to fill. Any frame that becomes that, gets changed.

Agree, I'm fine with that. Just the changes are not on part with frost or excal, but that's beside the point. The armor is just ugly and a big let down.

At least with a cool armor I'd be more inclined to make it work. Just feels disgusting now.

[Wandrecanada]

All I can say is that after playing all the new frames and rework frames... Saryn is a chore to play by comparison.  With Excalibur, Mag, Atlas, and Equinox I feel POWERFUL.  I don't feel invincible but I certainly feel like I can really bring a lot to the table.

 

Saryn now feels like I have to put in far too much work to be of any relative value at all beyond firing my gun. The bottom line is that powers are important for a frame to feel like it's worthwhile because everyone can use all the guns but only Warframes can use their unique skills.

 

When placed beside any contemporaries (including the new Rhino preview build) Saryn falls flat.  Especially for controller players who don't use number keys (like me) for because no other frame requires 2-3 powers combined to contribute less DPS than a first stage power on other frames.

[Darzk]

Make the toxin proc caused by meleeing to be based on the ability damage, or the entire toxin damage on the weapon, or something to make it deal significantly more damage/tick than it does now. Amplifying the damage of the DoT would give us a reason to prefer breaking Spores using TL than Molt or a weapon.

Expanding on this point, I was thinking to make TL somewhat useful in a non-melee focus. Installing nothing but base damage mods, Bane of Corpus, and primed reach onto a Boltace, http://goo.gl/UeWxhL, I should be able to slide attack into a Spored enemy and produce a Toxin proc that deals ~2069 damage per second to Crewmen (~1034 to robots) that spreads alongside the Viral debuff and lasts for 13 ticks (in theory, haven't tried at a high enough level for something to live that long).

 

For added damage, channel the attack and more than double the damage, but that's only viable with the melee out.

 

Might be okay against the other factions but it's pretty devastating against Corpus. And it's independent of power strength, so no drawback from going max range. 

 

Edit: doesnt seem to work like I'd hoped. No matter what attack I used, I would get only toxin ticks of ~20-30. Its either still really buggy or I don't understand the mechanic fully.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Darzk

[Gelkor]

Agree, I'm fine with that. Just the changes are not on part with frost or excal, but that's beside the point. The armor is just ugly and a big let down.

At least with a cool armor I'd be more inclined to make it work. Just feels disgusting now.

 

You don't have to buy the alternate skin. 

 

Saryn is more returning to her roots that anything else, she was originally created as a versatile DoT based frame with good durability and melee enhancements.  But her melee quickly fell behind as new melee abilities were added and the like, to the point where everyone just started building her for PBAoE.

 

Now she's back to the ideals she had when they first released her.  Including her ridiculously overpowered Spores she had when first released. 

[-cS-dalonico]

there are absurd things int the world, AND this HP nerf.

[Basilisk1991]

She's always had a flower/fungus theme to her. Really if you've ever seen some forms of fungus they very much match the design of her "collar" like this one for example:

 

 

Not to mention the fact that she fights by spreading poisonous spores like some mushrooms.To further bolster this argument with regards to the flower part, you have her Hemlock alt helmet that's named after Hemlock (Obviously) which is a flowering plant and her second alternate helmet, Chlora, is also a genus (It's a taxonomical term) of flowers.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Basilisk1991

[Shy0]

probably need to play saryn a bit more, but initial impressions:

 

- saryn is VERY energy-hungry now. previously only needed to press 4 periodically. now needs 3, 1, melee hit, 4, or 2, 1 (on clone), 2 (to kill first clone), 4 if melee not safe.

 

- and with an ev trinity and max range saryn, 2, 1, 2, 4, 1, 2, 4, etc. seems spammable. of course, it's much more work than 4 repeatedly.

 

- also, previously saryn's survivability depended on area nuking enemies and killing them quickly. now, one of the ways to get decent miasma damage involves melee, and while saryn has some armor, it is nothing like atlas' or valkyr's. the damage reduction buff for skill 3 is nice, but it seems to only reduce blockable damage from the front and has her stuck in melee.

 

in trying to create more synergy between all of saryn's skills, DE has made her a bit too energy-intensive and melee-oriented, and more risky to play. problem now is, as mentioned above, other frames can do the area nuke job much better than saryn. are they getting reworked too?

[Halilintar]

Her 3 needs a major makeover. Asking players to go melee with her non tanky stats is not an option on harder void missions. Saryn right now is just a high risk, no reward.

[Ziggy1124]

It's just insulting to call it a rework. At least have the decency to admit you wanted to nerf Saryn. 

 

I'm not even upset that you wrecked maisma, but I so pissed about toxic lash. Saryn's 3 was always useless and continues to be useless, just scrap that ability(why did you not substitute it for something new as in the excal rework of super jump?).

 

Please go back the drawing board because this is not an acceptable 'rework'.  

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ziggy1124

[Archwizard]

Next Steps:

The first round of tweaks are coming to Saryn in the next hotfix pending testing. 

1) Instead of just disappearing on enemy death, Saryn’s Spores will now detonate at a reduced spread distance if the target dies. You may have found yourself in the scenario where you Spore'd an enemy, didn't pop the spores, killed said enemy, only to see his Spores die with him instead of infecting nearby enemies.

2) Toxic Lash can now proc multiple times.

As always - things are subject to change. Keep an eye out for 17.10.1 in which the first round of tweaks will appear.

 

Oh hey, next day updates. That's neat.

[MaximusXVI]

I regret to say that I will no longer be playing Warframe after more than 2.5 yrs. Yesterday the DE nerfed Saryn my favorite frame. Before that they nerfed Mag, and before that Rhino. I like a frame with AOE and now there aren’t any left. I run clan and alliance, am a founder. You don't remember what fun this game used to be like. I dont want PVP or archwing or more intensity.....just fun.

[ThePredicament]

WE DID IT GUYS!

 

We spoke our minds about the mechanics of the skills and they are changing! Spores will now be much more reliable in the future.

 

Now all we need a small cast radius for Spores, invuln on the Molt, and aura and/or all weapons affect Lash. Step in the right direction. We just need to guide them towards the perfect Saryn!

[-cS-dalonico]

 

Spores (Rank 3) (U17.10.1)

• Base damage per second increased from 10  to 20 .
• Burst damage of 25  is unchanged but now has a 100% status chance.
• Initial spore count reduced from 6 to 3.
• Spread spore count reduced from 4 to 3.
• Burst damage from spread spores is now affected by power strength.
• Power duration reduced from 15 s to 12 s.
• Damage is dealt once per second as before, but there are no reduced damage ticks for non-integer durations (e.g., if Spores' duration is 18.6 seconds, there will be no extra damage tick for the final 0.6 seconds).
• Spread radius of 16 m is unchanged and is now affected by power range.
• Burst damage now spreads across the entire spread radius and is unaffected by falloff.
• Cast range of 60 m is unchanged.
• If a host is affected by a Toxin DoT, popping a spore on the host will increase the burst damage to 25 + 25% of the initial base damage that triggered the Toxin DoT as  Viral damage (affected by power strength) with a 100% status chance for both Viral and Toxin effects. The ensuing Toxin DoT will deal 50% of the burst damage per tick as  Toxin damage as usual. All toxin DoTs on the host are combined into a single DoT when transferred to surrounding enemies. Only one spore on the host can transfer Toxin damage until the host becomes affected by another Toxin DoT.
• Spores can be cast without interruption.
• Spores can be cast on Molt. Spore's damage will not be applied on Molt. When Molt explodes, all spores will burst simultaneously and affect enemies within the spread radius.
• With Toxic Lash activated, spores become easier to burst with melee strikes.

 

Burst damage on spread spores not being affected by power strength was an old bug that's been around for as long as I can remember. This mechanic along with the spread radius being affected by power range are good QoL improvements.

 

In the time that I've tested, I have noticed that I'm capable of spreading spores across the map with greater efficiency. I'm also noticing that enemies with AoE attacks are able to burst and spread spores on their own, including volatile runner explosions, bombard rockets, ground pounds from heavy units, and blast damage from boilers and their pods. I'm sure there are other examples.

 

Regarding Spores' capability of spreading Toxin damage, if I have a weapon that deals 100 base damage, and I have +165% bonus base damage from mods like Serration, let's assume I produce a Toxin DoT on an enemy. If I cast Spores on that enemy and pop one of the spores, the burst damage will inflict 25 + 0.25 x 100 x ( 1 + 1.65 ) = ~91 Viral damage within the spread radius with a 100% status chance for both Viral and Toxin effects. The proceeding Toxin DoT will deal 91 x 0.5 = ~46 Toxin damage per second (11 total ticks) over 10 seconds (+25% status effect duration from Saryn's passive).

 

If I produce 10 similar DoTs on an enemy and follow the same procedure, the burst damage will be equal to 25 + 0.25 x 100 x ( 1 + 1.65 ) x 10 = ~688 Viral damage, and ~344 Toxin damage per second will be dealt over the DoT's duration. Multiple Toxin DoTs on the host are combined into a single DoT when spread with Spores.

 

Here's an example:

+165% base damage, +30% power strength, 

( 120 x ( 1 + 1.65 ) x 0.25 + 25 ) x 1.3 = 135 rounded down. Notice the double proc with Viral and Toxin as mentioned previously.

 

 

If I were to offer any suggestions regarding Spores, I would consider the following.

 

Some of the issues Venom had prior to the rework are still present with Spores: low-leveled (or low health) hosts often die too quickly before the player has a chance to destroy a spore which wastes a cast, and projectile weapons (particularly non-hitscan) still have some difficulty destroying spores without the use of punch-through mods.

 

- Consider allowing spores to remain on the host's corpse. Should the host disintegrate on death due to the damage it received, such as being killed by Miasma, the remaining spores could burst. (Resolved in Hotfix 17.10.1)

 

- Consider increasing the size of spore hitboxes to allow the player to have better control of popping spores with projectile weapons.

 

 

 

Hotfix 17.10.1

"Instead of just disappearing on enemy death, Saryn’s Spores will now detonate at a reduced spread distance if the target dies."

 

Well then...

 

^... or... even better... make  spore vailable to be casted on the ground only if close-enough (like a land mine) 

[RealPandemonium]

Some of the issues Venom had prior to the rework are still present with Spores: low-leveled (or low health) hosts often die too quickly before the player has a chance to destroy a spore which wastes a cast, and projectile weapons (particularly non-hitscan) still have some difficulty destroying spores without the use of punch-through mods.

Not that it matters much with the hotfix, but if you want a full radius spore spread even after the hotfix you can bullet jump off enemies to detonate their spores without killing them.  

[hammerheathen]

Don't know where all the complaints are coming from spore+molt is an amazing and devastating combo. I generally don't need to cast miasma. The spores has commonly spread to every enemy in a horde when on molt.

 

Not to mention that saryns can synergize with other saryns (which is GREAT) the kind of teamwork I've been looking forward to.

 

I've always had a duration based balanced build, so I was rather positively effected by this. Rage and regenerative molt are a great combo to keep her going for a while. She seems really well balanced for mainline content, haven't played with the overextension into ridiculous timeframes level of play, but then nothing really should be balanced FOR that in my opinion.

[Rikage]

If your car suddenly needed more fuel and took longer to reach the same speed than before what would you call that? An improvement? I think not.

If they fix the energy consumption we might come to terms and not call it a nerf but in its current state only an imbecile can not see the issue.

Still depends on how you look at it. Your car won't be improved, sure, but you may move onto a healthier life style by walking more and getting less stressed by traffic jams (i'm not convincing anyone, am I? still had to try)

5. Miasma:

Hate to be negative but this ability feels half hearted now. It's not really a nuke anymore, especialy with things like Monecular Prime still around. Even with strength increased a group of level 33 Moas now survive it, which she previously turned to molten soup. So it's room clearer quality seems to have gone.

It's not really much utility either, since the "in pain" effect is rather short. Which means you are not gonna get much time to escape from or finish a group of enemies around you with your more powerfull weapons.

Again i'm still gonna do some testing to see if it isn't more helpfull as escape tool now.

MP is not that great as nuke (except low lvs I guess), rather it's better as a damage increasing debuff. Anyways, I agree that they could add utility. Pure damage abilities are rather boring (my opinion anyway) and fall off hard as armor climbs. Maybe they could have miasma's reward for hitting procced enemies be about bonus dmg based on target max life (as finisher - will still be boring, but won't fall off much)... or maybe have them drain something like 15 base armor (not to be confused with the effective armor after accounting for level) per tick per proc that enemy had... adding a large slow/stun feels like a repetition of other ulties Edited November 6, 2015 by Rikage

[Phatose]

Wait.....a cat?  Really?  Cause I mean, the Hemlock helm alone made it crystal clear to me she was basically Poison Ivy from batman.

[AutumnBramble]

Honestly, if they BUILT her base stats with the intention of her having regenerative molt, then it should be baked into molt in the first place. Having a health decrease because "well everyone uses the mod" is the most insane thing I've ever heard of.

 

At least give us a dedicated augment slot like the exilus slot if it's expected to use regenerative molt. Augments are supposed to be like, not. Mandatory. Just stop having enemies drop energy orbs since they know we tend to have an EV trinity around too then.

I

just. I'm boggled by this. "Hey, everyone uses Regenerative Molt. Should be just make it part of the power?" "Nah. Let's decrease her health instead."

Edited November 6, 2015 by [DE]Danielle
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