"Death" before The Second Dream

[NekroArts]

Before The Second Dream, the Tennos are unaware of their true self and believed to be the Warframe. It made me wonder, before they knew the truth, what happens to themselves when their Warframe "dies" like what had happen to Excalibur in The Profit and Loki in the Second Dream cinematics.

• Do their minds reconnect immediately to a different Warframe or do they stay "dead" (coma)?
• If they do reconnect, do they suffer a bit of amnesia or do they retain all memories of their "death"?
• If they are "dead" and they came back, does it feel like reincarnation or do they experience a time gap like the video game SOMA?

[Aimop95]

Our best guess is that Tenno whom the Lotus had access too would probably play out with how our current revive system works. Either we revive, or we get extradited out, presumably unconscious due to the pain feedback (operator quotes mention that Transference does transfer pain, so imagine now if they didn't know they had a second body), and then business as usual.

[AM-Bunny]

Seems to be a confusing point - the lore from the Mirage and Limbo Quests certainly seem to imply that the Warframe suffering a fatal injury kills the Tenno, otherwise it wouldn't be a loss worth grieving over.

However, at the beginning of Second Dream, Hunhow mentions to Stalker that the Warframes continue to rise no matter how many times Stalker kills them, and that striking the Tenno themselves is the only way to permanently get rid of them.

Lot of unknowns at this time, it could be either one.

[YasaiTsume]

I read somewhere Oro allows the Warframe to be revived from Bleedout or "Death"

Maybe Mirage and Limbo just died repeatedly and ran out of Oro, then their sleeping bodies became vegetables after being unable to be awakened. 

[Repligon]

Sometimes developers have to put questionable and kind of lore-breaking mechanics in games to make them less punishing. Like in fantasy games we have healing potions that only players are aware of. Or revive stations in Borderlands that for some reason don't work if character was killed during cutscene (that's because new-you stations are actually non-canon).

Same goes for revives and returning to liset after mission fail in warframe. These things actually don't exist in warframe universe but we have them because starting from scratch after death is hardly fun.

[NinthAria]

8 minutes ago, Repligon said:

Sometimes developers have to put questionable and kind of lore-breaking mechanics in games to make them less punishing. Like in fantasy games we have healing potions that only players are aware of. Or revive stations in Borderlands that for some reason don't work if character was killed during cutscene (that's because new-you stations are actually non-canon).

Same goes for revives and returning to liset after mission fail in warframe. These things actually don't exist in warframe universe but we have them because starting from scratch after death is hardly fun.

But those things do exist. Lotus mentions trying to revive Mirage in Hidden Messages, and things like the Zanuka Hunter (and the special mission if you're captured by it), Zanuka itself, the Grustrag Bolt, and many other things imply or downright necessitate the existence of Tenno who failed missions.

[Repligon]

26 minutes ago, NinthAria said:

But those things do exist. Lotus mentions trying to revive Mirage in Hidden Messages, and things like the Zanuka Hunter (and the special mission if you're captured by it), Zanuka itself, the Grustrag Bolt, and many other things imply or downright necessitate the existence of Tenno who failed missions.

Ok. Revives exist, but it still doesn't mean that warframe just dies with operator when out of revives (or heavily damaged like mentioned excal).

Zanuka hunter doesn't kill you - it kidnaps you.

Grustrag Three only put bolt on you and throw out the airlock because they think that you are not a threat anymore.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Repligon

[SilvaDreams]

Well we know the operators feel the pain our frames do so there could be safety features in place that prevent it killing the operators... Though perhaps with Mirage's and Limbo it failed or the system wasn't in place yet.

 

Think of it like the Matrix, our brain is telling us we're dead so... We die. Sometimes even the revival system might not even be able to recover us from the trauma.

[Urlan]

The Grustag Bolt is placed on our warframe so it makes sense that our warframe would still have it afterward. Mirage, we don't know the manner of the warframe's destruction; perhaps the pain snapped the Operator in controls mind, perhaps the method of destruction gave fatal feed-back. Zanuka Hunter captures your warframe, you simply remote it from the holding cell and take back your stuff. The revive stations in Borderlands and especially Borderlands 2 are a different issue. Officially, they don't exist, but the story at times in both Borderlands 1 and 2 reference you using them and a quest in Borderlands 2 actually has Jack reference how you just offed yourself and he will totally kill you for real later. Borderlands 2 is weird plot pacing and writing wise.

[Pavelord]

The specifics of the transference process are still a mystery, from the events in the Profit video it can be seen that Tenno may not have the liberty to abandon the warframes as they see fit, transference could be a process that initially needs the surrogate in the proximity of the tenno. We know the tenno are transfering their minds into another body, in case of the destruction of the body, does the mind returns to the ship or does it travel at all?, the constant need to rescue the other frames kinds of points at that not being the case, otherwise the Tenno would just wake up or the mind travel to a new frame.

What I think is that without the help of the Lotus or other Tenno, the mind in the frame could be lost, and even though the body in the moon of in the orbiter doesn't die, it could remain in the dream state, that is practically a coma, rendering the Tenno lost. In this scenario there would be nobody near to save Mirage mind and the suit could be damage beyond help by the revive system, and also nobody would know where did Limbo mind ended off, leaving their Tenno essentially in a vegetative state.

 

[Hemmo67]

what make sense is that limbo and mirage never had the safety feature to pull operators mind out of them if the warframe happened to get destroyed which killed those operators but later lotus developed the technology to prevent from the same ever happening again perhaps limbo had beta  version of it and the transfer into 2nd real deactivated the system which lead into..well we all know what happened...

but as of now currently each warframe has the backup to pull operators out incase of emergency (some mental/physical injuries possible)

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

15 minutes ago, Hemmo67 said:

what make sense is that limbo and mirage never had the safety feature to pull operators mind out of them if the warframe happened to get destroyed which killed those operators but later lotus developed the technology to prevent from the same ever happening again perhaps limbo had beta  version of it and the transfer into 2nd real deactivated the system which lead into..well we all know what happened...

but as of now currently each warframe has the backup to pull operators out incase of emergency (some mental/physical injuries possible)

 

I think warframes can be killed ( like the originals... Where a warframe was a tenno in a suit...) Transference let a warframe die many times. Before transference existed, if a warframe died the tenno died with him

[NinthAria]

24 minutes ago, Repligon said:

Ok. Revives exist, but it still doesn't mean that warframe just dies with operator when out of revives (or heavily damaged like mentioned excal).

Zanuka hunter doesn't kill you - it kidnaps you.

Grustrag Three only put bolt on you and throw out the airlock because they think that you are not a threat anymore.

I wasn't trying to make a point about what happens when a warframe dies "for real," or what impact it has on the Operator when they do; just illustrating that revives are actually canon, as are mission failures. I mentioned the Zanuka Hunter and the Grustrag Three to illustrate the latter point, because it's clear from what they do (taking you to Alad V's facility and attaching a Grustrag Bolt and throwing you out, respectively) that the story is not simply reversed back to a pre-mission-failure "checkpoint" as a result of your defeat; you didn't die, but the mission also ended (forcibly in this case), which logically means that mission failures can be reasonably taken as a canon possibility, if not necessarily something that happens all the time.

[Currilicious]

Mirage ran out of revives. Space mom wasn't around to save her.

Limbo was negligent. Don't drink and rift. Space mom wasn't around to nag him.

[SilentMobius]

Hmm, I wonder if the problem with the Mirage and Limbo stories can be solved not by looking at the mechanics of Warframe "Death" but thinking about the location of the Tenno.

We each have a personal story that is unique to our Tenno, but it is also the same game play for every IRL player. So while there is only one Tenno who was forced to hijack an old liset, suffered the Ascaris, awakened Hunhow and ultimately saved the Tenno on the moon, that Tenno is always "my" Tenno (regardless which player I am)

Now the Orbiter we recover seems to be paired with the liset we liberate and that liset is old enough that Ordis thinks it should remember the Old War. It's not much of a stretch to assume that this lisete and orbiter pair were deployed during the war, right?

This orbiter had a transference chair in it! All this time.

Sure, the Lotus gathered up the Tenno and hid them on the moon but when did she do that? Could it have been that the Tenno operated from their orbiters when being deployed? If so then there is a new vulnerability for the Tenno.

The Mirage pilot we hear about was fighting Sentients, and was said to be "too far" for the Lotus to surge her revive systems. Could she have been in the system with the "alien blue star" referred to in the Mag Prime codex? If so, would her Orbiter have gone with her? If that's the case is it not possible that once the battle was lost and the Warframe's last ditch assault failed the Sentients could have swarmed the orbiter containing the helpless Tenno? Or maybe the Orbiter was hidden in the local Void of the (assumed) Tau system, slowly losing power, until the shield's failed and the Tenno was torn apart by the void storms mentioned in the previous Fusion Moa event, or maybe the fight in question was the Mirage pilot defending her lisete and orbiter. Either way, without a Warframe the Tenno herself could have been a sitting duck.

The Limbo pilot we know about was trying a massive rift-jump and ended up spread across the solar-system, could he have been trying to jump himself and his liset/orbiter back to the Origin system from Tau after being trapped there?

Maybe that's what turned the Tenno against the Orokin, we know the Pluto relay was destroyed and we know some Tenno went to another system (Mag Prime codex, presumably Tau) to fight.

What if the Orokin destroyed the return Rail while there were Tenno over there... Obviously not all of them, but enough. The first-and-only Limbo and Mirage pilots died. The Tenno back in the Origin system defeated the few Sentients who had made it through the rail (or so they thought) and then turned on the Orokin who had abandoned their brothers and sisters...

tl;dr Transference-via-orbiter may well have been a necessity for Tenno operating in Tau, it so it opens up a whole new level of vulnerability.

Hmm, this has prompted thoughts about how everything might work together, I'll write this up in another post.

Edited March 29, 2016 by SilentMobius

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

I always thought the dream was a reference to their mind-control/memory wipes. So naturally after every "death" they would either be forced to not remember or simply pay it no mind as they had no sense of self till they were awoken.

[BornWithTeeth]

3 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

 

I think warframes can be killed ( like the originals... Where a warframe was a tenno in a suit...) Transference let a warframe die many times. Before transference existed, if a warframe died the tenno died with him

Where's this bit of information?

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Where's this bit of information?

When the original limbo/mirage died, we get their parts (and backstory) to rebuild piece by piece. Considering that when our warframe dies, We can revive them, It only makes sense that something is different between our warframes and them. We project our tenno powers into our warframe, They were probably fused to their warframes and is the reason they couldn't be revived. 

[SilentMobius]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

When the original limbo/mirage died, we get their parts (and backstory) to rebuild piece by piece. Considering that when our warframe dies, We can revive them, It only makes sense that something is different between our warframes and them. We project our tenno powers into our warframe, They were probably fused to their warframes and is the reason they couldn't be revived. 

I think that there are more plausible explanations that that one. You're creating a new mechanism and then giving no reason at all that the mechanism was changed, thats a lot of unsupported assertions, certainly not strong enough as a blanket assertion of truth.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

34 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

I think that there are more plausible explanations that that one. You're creating a new mechanism and then giving no reason at all that the mechanism was changed, thats a lot of unsupported assertions, certainly not strong enough as a blanket assertion of truth.

 

I have some logic behind it. The Neural Sentry essentially controls all the corrupted by some method that is probably identical to transference. The neural sentry is what controls Corrupted Vor and every other tower enemy. Vor is seemingly resurrected every time we kill him. This is probably because of the Neural Sentry using transference on him, Just like we can revive our warframe. If something in the past was different that allowed warframes to die... It seems logical that they didn't have transference and that the tenno died when the warframe died.

[BornWithTeeth]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

When the original limbo/mirage died, we get their parts (and backstory) to rebuild piece by piece. Considering that when our warframe dies, We can revive them, It only makes sense that something is different between our warframes and them. We project our tenno powers into our warframe, They were probably fused to their warframes and is the reason they couldn't be revived. 

Kind of an issue there: the Rhino Prime Codex shows us that Transference came before the Warframes. In other words, Transference was never somehow the thing which replaced Tenno-inside-suits. Transference came first. 

 

Ballas described the first generation of Tenno as "golems possessed by devil minds". He didn't say "devils in shining armour".

[Ibro156]

7 hours ago, AM-Bunny said:

Seems to be a confusing point - the lore from the Mirage and Limbo Quests certainly seem to imply that the Warframe suffering a fatal injury kills the Tenno, otherwise it wouldn't be a loss worth grieving over.

However, at the beginning of Second Dream, Hunhow mentions to Stalker that the Warframes continue to rise no matter how many times Stalker kills them, and that striking the Tenno themselves is the only way to permanently get rid of them.

Lot of unknowns at this time, it could be either one.

That's well and good but one of the quotes is "that hurt", when you take too much damage. It's possible that Limbo and Mirage's operator could have died from immense pain as they feel what frame feel. But question is how can they survive if Warframe gets a fatal blow?

[SilentMobius]

52 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

 

I have some logic behind it. The Neural Sentry essentially controls all the corrupted by some method that is probably identical to transference. The neural sentry is what controls Corrupted Vor and every other tower enemy. Vor is seemingly resurrected every time we kill him. This is probably because of the Neural Sentry using transference on him, Just like we can revive our warframe. If something in the past was different that allowed warframes to die... It seems logical that they didn't have transference and that the tenno died when the warframe died.

I'm sorry that just doesn't follow at all. There are so many alternate explanations of the Neural sentry, not least of which is the fact that Vor is seemingly of his own mind. I see no reason to conflate transference and the neural sentry. Especially when the Neural sentry was seemingly a known and integrated part of the Orokin Empire at the end of the old war (Eviscerator Synthesis) wheras the Tenno were perceived as an unstable-last-gasp against the unstoppable Sentients.

[BornWithTeeth]

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

 whereas the Tenno were perceived as an unstable-last-gasp against the unstoppable Sentients.

We also have tantalising glimpses that the Tenno were more than that. Through: Syandana as badges of rank, weapons such as the Karyst, Ballas explaining in his ultimately sexy voice how he designed Saryn to kill the Infestation.

 

These things tell us that the Tenno were used as assassins and bodyguards by the highest ranks of the Orokin, and deployed to specific purposes which were not fighting the Sentients.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

It's irrelevant, because ret-con!