U19 will be a turning point... or will not.

[matto]

Hi there.

Damn, I don't know about you guys, but it took me a while before falling asleep. First, the Vauban hype, then what I consider to be a new crisis in this community with all the threads about ressources requirements, void reward tables, etc. I've seen a lot of hard times on this forum and most people will tell me "give it some time, people will let it go as they usually do". But what's interesting here is how a PA access brought back all the matters that sometimes divide the community (payer vs grinder), or ignite it (alertium, drop chances). It's not one crisis that will focus on one problem at period t, but more about one that shows the entire state of the game at period t. And it's what is truly interesting. And this is why I feel like we are on the edge of the Falls. And this edge will be U19. Or will not, maybe. But my opinion is as stated.

Because after 3 years with this game, we finally saw a more aggressive logic behind PA. All the smoke screen won't hide it. It's buy your new shiny frame, or grind the hell out of it. Go through farming keys to grinding missions, to waiting for alertium to show up and finally farm an uncommon ressource. So people will say "it is the great Booben, it was supposed to be hard to acquire". I agree, really. But hum... I was expecting something else for Vauban. I don't know what (a void vortex appearing? a teaser of the void collapse?), but not your classic and intensified grind fest. But whatever. I would be ok with all the grind wall if a Prime frame wasn't limited in time. Because, yes with the vaulting system, it became limited. Or even unattainable for some without paying. That's what really saddens me the most. When I think about those players that won't get Frost Prime anytime soon, those players that don't even know if they'll be able to get it someday, I feel like things got too far from the fantastic and refreshing game policy I fell in love with a few years before. But hey, time to bring back the old promise : the void will collapse with the new starchart. Prime vault is just a temporary solution to the reward tables issue. Don't get me wrong, I don't trust it and have no hope. But that's specifically what will make U19 a turning point : will you keep your promise? Or will you fall even more into the F2P mechanics of a game that is self-assured enough to not even caring about hiding and easing those mechanics? The future of Warframe is here.

It is sad, and at the same time reassuring. Because some people just can't keep the "I told you so" anymore. Because some of us already tried to warn others about the Prime Vault or even the early stages of Prime Access, or alertiums, etc. The developers created, step by step, all the assets to get to this point. But you always have this voice inside you reminding you that when Warframe was launched, someone called Steve Sinclair said "The grind sucks, and I hate it. What I love, which is really damn close to 'grinding' is progression" (Steve, around U7). But Steve, if you are reading this, I don't blame you. Because I understand enough to be able to say "everything is not up to you". You created a game with a vision, an ideal, and I am truly thankful for all these years. People forget a lot of elements, from the recent share acquisition, to the headquarters remodeling etc. when they say that "you need to eat". There's a margin between standard PA policy, and even more PA policy. There's a difference between what your F2P model and idea was, and what we're seeing clearer and clearer. But that's another topic. People are naive anyway.

What happened the past hours must not be ignored. U19 being closer and closer, starchart 3.0 sooner and sooner, we will finally see if everything we were told will actually be implemented. What makes it critical is that a lot of players feel exhausted by all the grind we got lately. From events to prime items or stance or... well just too many things. I haven't seen people that tired of it in a long time. Just go farm sabotage void keys, and you'll see people complaining a lot in the squad chat. Tired... that's how we are, most of us. So, in the end, if you don't keep your promise, what we'll have left is playing the game as casuals, playing the game for what it is and nothing more. Maybe it will make us enjoy more its content. If only its content was interesting enough... A point, and my last one, that could balance the grind of the game. Challenge, fun would ease the pain if you're not willing to change anything.

So yeah, the stakes are as stated. Waiting for changes in the grind logic, the void, the reward tables or, if nothing along those lines happen, getting enough fun to enjoy the game for something else.

Anyway, good luck everyone. May we be heard.

 

Edited May 18, 2016 by matto

[Shreiko]

I mean no offense when I ask, is english your first language?

[matto]

3 minutes ago, Shreiko said:

I mean no offense when I ask, is english your first language?

Not at all, I'm French mate :) Why are you asking? Just curious. Sorry if I made some mistakes and if it's not clear enough.

[PrVonTuckIII]

2 minutes ago, Shreiko said:

I mean no offense when I ask, is english your first language?

What? His English is more or less perfect.

Anyways, I get what you mean, OP. Personally, I feel like VaubanP's reqs are far too high, especially when compared to other PWarframes. Hopefully U19 fixes this.

[Alanbot]

What's wrong with his English? And why does his English has anything to do with the topic?

That said, I agree with OP's point. At the moment me and my friend is considering taking a long hard break from the game since we're seriously burned out of all the grind. This game is becoming more of a chore for us than an actual game

 

[ranks21]

  calls the horns man, requests the burial  song.. yeah and I thought burnout from the grind was the core mechanics of this game, silly me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egrDn9Nj8_A 

Edited May 18, 2016 by ranks21

[Cloud]

Grind is bad. But you must consider they are selling the vauban set for real money. Already is hard for me to understand someone who buy something which can be freely obtained in the game.... but who do you think would ever buy a prime set which is easy to acquire? 

For prime vault, do you really belive they create it for prime parts dilution? Let's be clear, we have so many modes which have worst distribution possible of prime parts or useless items.... Why did they put vauban systems in surv 3 rotation c ? Why derelict runs are empty? Why I get in t4 tier keys useless sh*t as uncommon core, resources ,etc..?

All this is just an excuse for the introduction of Prime Vault. Which feed them with much more money, now they do not only gain on PA , but also on PV .... not talking about all the people who farm sets before PV and resell them for titanic prices on the trade. 

This model is extremely profitable, and for this reason will stay , even after u19 and starchart rework. 

[undernown]

I wholeheartedly agree that the starchart rework wil be a crucial change. It wil either show there is no way back, or show that this game wil be able to fix it's problems. For me it's gonna be the deciding factor if i'll keep playing this game after 3 years playing it.

No matter how enjoyable the game is, or how much fun i have with the community. Id the core issues don't get the attention hey need, my reasoning for playing this game wil dwindle down to nothing, i'll move on to the next game and likely stay away for good.

Damage 3.0 is another one, but is far behind starchart in terms of release.

[Guest]

It won't be a turning point.

U19 is already packed with stuff. Domestic Kavats, Volt and Mag reworks, starchart 3.0, and who knows when Excalibur Umbra is coming out. It'd be a miracle if Steve managed to add more progression into the game when everyone's been hyped about Vauban prime and new cosmetic items. Grinding was, is and will be a predominant aspect of Warframe as long as DE stop throwing out gimmicks and actually consider adding more depth to lore and gameplay. Plus, there are tons of things to fix already. Warframe abilities are now either game-breaking or borderline useless, enemy scaling is broken, and the maps are old. We should totally pay attention to how DE intends to blow up the void and scatter prime parts everywhere while we continue our core grind on Triton and Hieracon, MR grind on Draco and a 3 hour grind for Equinox. Good job.

[MillbrookWest]

I can kinda see the thinking behind Vauban prime's requirements, but then the short sightedness of that thinking is obviously clear, and shows a bit of a disconnect between Devs and player base.

Devs obviously want to gate items so that people can continue to play the game, otherwise everyone would be running around with Vauban Prime rendering playing the game moot, DE might as well just give everyone the frame post gratis. But the way they go about gating said gear is in direct opposition to what the players want.

Now, players never truly know what they want so it's DE's job to provide a system that compromises, one that allows the Devs to gate items, and addresses players complaints regarding the grind.

So for my 2c, i hope DE address the grind issues with U19, and the new Star Chart. If the marque addition to U19 is the cats, i for one will be sorely disappointed. I know there is a quest being added too, but this gets done in a weekend (or even a single sitting) and it's back to the same old gameplay. The same old gameplay people have been raising concerns over as time has passed.

Look at EVE, character progression is near constant. You level up even when you aren't playing. Players can set themselves a goal and work towards it. And when they sit down and play the game, they actually play the game. They know what they want, and they know they are taking steps towards that goal every time they sit down.

So yeah, i do hope U19 redresses the direction Warframe has been heading in as of late. The Grind is getting old. A little bit of grinding here and there is fine, but when the purpose of logging on is to grind for grinding sake, something is broken and needs fixing. Underneath the grind, Warframe is a genuinely fun game. DE should not lose sight of that.

[izzatuw]

14 minutes ago, Madho said:

It won't be a turning point.

U19 is already packed with stuff. Domestic Kavats, Volt and Mag reworks, starchart 3.0, and who knows when Excalibur Umbra is coming out. It'd be a miracle if Steve managed to add more progression into the game when everyone's been hyped about Vauban prime and new cosmetic items. Grinding was, is and will be a predominant aspect of Warframe as long as DE stop throwing out gimmicks and actually consider adding more depth to lore and gameplay. Plus, there are tons of things to fix already. Warframe abilities are now either game-breaking or borderline useless, enemy scaling is broken, and the maps are old. We should totally pay attention to how DE intends to blow up the void and scatter prime parts everywhere while we continue our core grind on Triton and Hieracon, MR grind on Draco and a 3 hour grind for Equinox. Good job.

Mag and Volt should be coming before U19. 

[matto]

8 minutes ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

Personally, I feel like VaubanP's reqs are far too high, especially when compared to other PWarframes. Hopefully U19 fixes this.

I've read some players saying that the higher requirements of some recent items are meant to make veterans use all those unused ressources stockpiled with time. While I feel bad for new players if such a logic was behind those requirements, I'm wondering how veterans (or dedicated players, whatever they're called) will feel when their stocks will melt and another frame or weapon with high requirement will hit the game. Also, the first attempt to make it requiring 14.000 oxium (if someone dare to say it was a non-intended mistake...) clearly show the incentive and aggressive logic to make you buy PA.

13 minutes ago, Alanbot said:

This game is becoming more of a chore for us than an actual game

Exactly this. Devs must look at this comment and react.

13 minutes ago, LordCloud00 said:

. This model is extremely profitable, and for this reason will stay , even after u19 and starchart rework. 

That's also what I think, sadly.

9 minutes ago, undernown said:

I wholeheartedly agree that the starchart rework wil be a crucial change. It wil either show there is no way back, or show that this game wil be able to fix it's problems. For me it's gonna be the deciding factor if i'll keep playing this game after 3 years playing it.

Consciously or unconsciously, I think a lot of players will follow this reasoning.

7 minutes ago, Madho said:

It won't be a turning point.

U19 is already packed with stuff. Domestic Kavats, Volt and Mag reworks, starchart 3.0, and who knows when Excalibur Umbra is coming out. It'd be a miracle if Steve managed to add more progression into the game when everyone's been hyped about Vauban prime and new cosmetic items. Grinding was, is and will be a predominant aspect of Warframe as long as DE stop throwing out gimmicks and actually consider adding more depth to lore and gameplay. Plus, there are tons of things to fix already. Warframe abilities are now either game-breaking or borderline useless, enemy scaling is broken, and the maps are old. We should totally pay attention to how DE intends to blow up the void and scatter prime parts everywhere while we continue our core grind on Triton and Hieracon, MR grind on Draco and a 3 hour grind for Equinox. Good job.

Game is broken, we all agree (a large number of player at least).

 

I just hope they will read those comments guys. They chose the path of profit with the whole downward spiral it implies. I remember when people were proudly comparing Warframe to other F2P games that failed their community. We're getting closer to that point. We just have to look at all the abandoned content, abandoned ideas, and the state of this community right now at the release of U18.12. I'm sure somehow, if some of them read and process feedbacks, they'll not feel too proud. Must be hard to leave an ideal behind for a company's larger scheme. Just saying. This game chose to be published independant for reasons. I guess looking at where it went, it must be hard sometimes. At least they should be proud for the Universe they developped as it would have not be possible if not owning the game.

[GinKenshin]

13 minutes ago, LordCloud00 said:

 

All this is just an excuse for the introduction of Prime Vault. Which feed them with much more money, now they do not only gain on PA , but also on PV .... not talking about all the people who farm sets before PV and resell them for titanic prices on the trade. 

This model is extremely profitable, and for this reason will stay , even after u19 and starchart rework. 

This is what I thought all along, that PV is just another income, and won't be removed even after U19 

 

i mean, the 'void is too crowded' was an issue, but that's not what they created PV for, it's like '2 birds with 1 stone' thing 

 

also, if they really wanted to remove prime parts to make room for new ones, they would remove the prime weapons that didn't come in PA, but I don't think people will pay for a bunch of weapons (most of prime weapons are mid tier anyway) instead of a prime warframe. 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

the content will likely be great, but I'm going to be seeing what those build requirements for the new stuff will inevitably be. and if they're anything like the stuff we've had recently, then DE should expect a tidal wave of passive aggression, sarcasm and criticism from it's community, and DE will have shown their true colours. we will finally have confirmation that a grind reduction will never happen, only a further increase to punish those who don't buy plat for everything.

go on DE, show us that you only care about the money, and watch as your fans leave you. it's not too late to turn around though, the grind can still be reduced and made more bearable, but if it doesn't happen in U19, I will have lost faith in both DE and Warframe, and others may as well.

 

[T7Alpha]

The tenno grow tired... but that may not always be a bad thing.
 

Spoiler

Credit to Typod - deviantart.

 

[gluih]

I actually like that warframe is more honest about the fact that you have to grind a lot than other games, especially because grinding is actually made pretty easy overall. You can finish a lot of missions in less than 5 minutes, so it's not a huge time investment (for a single run) outside of endless missions.

What is important however is to make sure that you don't just do the same thing over and over again. Maybe this will be fixed with the new starchart, so there is no one most efficient way of getting something and instead the best way to get something will change. I would like to see 2 things, that probably won't be part of the starchart.

1. appropriate rewards for the different mission types- I don't get why the new sabotage missions can't at least reward us with a void key and there are a lot of other mission types that just don't give good rewards so we run the same maps over and over again.

2. more reworks for the mission types- the new sabotage missions are really cool, it's nice to run spy missions sometimes and I personally also have a lot of fun in excavations. But stuff like survival, defense and exterminate leaves a lot of room for improvement. This also includes more enemy types and bosses that can't just be killed by spamming the same abilities that deal with everything else.

The nice thing is, that the Devs are actually doing a lot to improve the game. Old frames are actually getting reworks, mission types get reworks, we get a lot of new warframes and weapons. It's actually quite annoying to see people complaining that vauban requires too much nitain, when the reason that they don't have it is probably that they simply ignored the alerts when they were there. The game is a lot more fun when you just focus on having fun with what you have and on small goals, instead of the one thing that is really hard to get.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

13 minutes ago, MillbrookWest said:

Look at EVE, character progression is near constant. You level up even when you aren't playing. Players can set themselves a goal and work towards it. And when they sit down and play the game, they actually play the game. They know what they want, and they know they are taking steps towards that goal every time they sit down.

EvE is the ULTIMATE grind game. There's no way to hurry up that skills training (someone did the math that it would take about 23 years to be skilled in everything ... years ago), and without those skills a pilot can't fly crap.

Each game has it's grind. I absolutely HATED Timeless Isle in WoW as I play a healer there. Can't kill crap with 1000000000000001 stuns and debuffs and addons making you the #1 chew toy, and especially trying to snipe a kill from DPS as a healer. That's horrible, horrible, horrible game design.

Warframe has a nice balance I like, and at any time can simply even take breaks and not be penalized for it. Get behind on the skill training in EvE woe your chances in flying anything but a destroyer within your lifetime!

Character progression is finding a purpose in playing the game. Some interest that keeps a player coming back. If the content is varied enough, there's niches that a player can dabble with to maintain interest (EvE's PI system is a great example of it. Easy to start with, but gets increasingly more complex for crafting -- heck, just watching the stat screen is something in itself). I simply enjoy blowing up Infested as the Paladin in me just loves to send the evil cancerous tumors back to it's maker!!!

[TheFalseEclipse]

Lets see how about... more and more grind for each new weapon? maybe.. seeing how it is atm.. disappearance of *token* from everysingle talk, and a lot more.

Though in content,improvement and etc it will happen (like ... some S#&$ turned into something useful perharps?)

Maybe with something a bit more.. different than some of our current meta will help the enjoyment

 

[xxswatelitexx]

1 hour ago, matto said:

Not at all, I'm French mate :) Why are you asking? Just curious. Sorry if I made some mistakes and if it's not clear enough.

Ignore him, your English is just fine.

The guy complains about language and then continues to make mistakes in his own sentence is not some one who is qualified to judge another persons language skills.

[DaftMeat]

tl;dr - Unless something changes, things will stay the same? I'm sorry to nit-pick, but that reads like something out of a fortune cookie.

 

1 hour ago, matto said:

It's buy your new shiny frame, or grind the hell out of it.

Well ... yeah. That's the incentive for players to put money into the game. So the company will thrive, and continue providing access to the game as well as introduce new content. If it's easy to get everything for free, who would pay for it? They would make a hell of a less money which would seriously impede development; that's a terrible business model.

Would you work at your job for free, just for fun?

Edited May 18, 2016 by DaftMeat

[matto]

2 minutes ago, DaftMeat said:

tl;dr

Such a shame.

If you had read it, you would have known that I'm not saying everything should be free or obtainable easily, but that there's a difference between what was the PA logic, and the aggressive turn it took.

But again, you didn't read so... I won't blame you, it's really long. You could get a Nitain extract in that time.

[Hypernaut1]

Just setting yourselves up for disappointment. 

After u19, this will be more or less the same game you've always been playing.

Therr will always be the grind. DES philosophy on how much you should play to earn items wont change...and you'll love it, yet still come here to complain. 

[h41pa]

Well i hope U19 change all:) 

I hyped for Lunaro !:)

[DJ_Vauban]

Let's be honest, DE is a business and of course they want money, but who the hell doesn't? The difference, in my opinion, between DE and other devs is, they actually TRY to make their game better, make their players have more fun, etc etc. Sometimes it's just not easy to make the right decisions everytime you do something which is also a good thing because imperfection makes you perfect. You do something wrong, you learn to make it better next time and that is what DE is doing. Just look at starchart 2.0, even Steve isn't happy with it but what does he do? He doesn't sit there shrugging and maybe thinking to himself "well that system sucks &#!...oh well, I got other things to work on". No, he works on a new chart for months to replace it in an attempt to make it better WHILE working on other things like Archwing. I'm no programmer but I bet whatever he is doing is a hell of a lot of work.

What I mean is, don't use the "they only want money" thing as an excuse. Everyone wants money, even you. owo

[CapAllan]

Thought I'd just drop this here.

 

Anyway, I agree with the OP. I've been playing for only a few months and I am already pretty much burned out. My PC can no longer take the strain and nor can my personal life. I understand that you guys got to eat, but please. Ease this burden a bit. We all love this game and I don't want to let it go like this.