DE: Sibear and Vauban Prime just revealed a very important problem in Warframe

[T7Alpha]

6 minutes ago, Bluejay235 said:

It's only a problem if you assume that new players are supposed to be able to get "All The Things".

I am a new player. I have been playing for about 3 weeks and just made MR5. I will not be able to get Vauban Prime. It's obvious to me that I am not intended to get Vauban Prime. I also don't care. There are plenty of things that I can get and more than enough gameplay for me to experience that not being able to get a few elite frames or weapons is not a concern.

From what I understand Vauban Prime isn't even a significant part of the later meta (maybe I am wrong?) so I don't even see how not getting this frame will affect my future game play.

There are SIGNIFICANT problems with this game for new players. Not having ANY clue what to do after finishing the first story quest is one. Not being able to progress in the main storyline because I can't unlock group missions on planets is another. Being given quests with no guidance that are almost impossible for new players to complete and that will actually hurt your game play (I am looking at you kubrows) is a third. Not being able to get EVERY SINGLE frame and weapon in the game is not a real problem.

You have more than a year before he disappears from the void; you can have vauban prime :) but you are correct, meta-abiding degenerates do not understand the complex and all-binding power of lord booben.
And after you finish the first quests you should hit the wiki and work toward second dream imo, then you can have focus powers and a reliable, loyal and cuddly sword to keep your foes tucked in at night.

I think the lack of inbuilt guidance is to make you want to explore; the same with the random rare mod drops in strange places; to reward you just for being lucky.

Edited May 19, 2016 by T7Alpha

[Necrius]

2 minutes ago, Bluejay235 said:

 

It's only a problem if you assume that new players are supposed to be able to get "All The Things".

Explain me HOW Vauban prime or Sibear are better than, say, Nova Prime and Jat Kittag? Only because they're new and vet farmers didn't trash them yet? New toys are a pain to both acquire and to craft for no real reason other than fake longevity or shoving Prime Access or "featured content" into players' face.

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

Would this type of topic exist if Sibear and Vauban Prime provide ZERO Mastery XP? Let's be honest here. Those that say they "really" want the Sibear, do you want it because you like it OR you're angry because it forces you to grind for the mastery fodder? 

[T7Alpha]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said:

Would this type of topic exist if Sibear and Vauban Prime provide ZERO Mastery XP? Let's be honest here. Those that say they "really" want the Sibear, do you want it because you like it OR you're angry because it forces you to grind for the mastery fodder? 

I believe you have struck the nail on the head; though I do not understand peoples need for mastery, it's not like we can become rank 69 :>.

[motorfirebox]

One thing Warframe really needs is persistent resource sinks, some kind of upkeep cost that puts a constant low-level drain on your store of materials. It would obviously have to be voluntary (not like Argon Crystals), or it'd end up being a source of huge frustration.

Something like this: if your rep with a syndicate is completely maxed out, you can donate X amount of resources every day. Every 30 cumulative days  you donate, you get something nice, like maybe a potato or an Exilus adapter. For each successive (not cumulative) day in a row that you donate, the donation 'cost' increases. So maybe Monday you donate 100 ferrite. Tuesday you donate donate 100 ferrite and 5 oxium. Wednesday you donate 200 ferrite and 10 oxium. Thursday it's 400 ferrite and 20 oxium. Friday it's 800 ferrite and 40 oxium and 10 cryotic. You decide to skip Saturday, so instead of increasing, the cost drops one level; Sunday, it's back down to 400 ferrite and 20 oxium. If you skip Sunday, too, on Monday the cost will be 200 ferrite and 10 oxium.

[kilerskull]

6 hours ago, SilvaDreams said:

...play maybe 4-5 hours a day at best.. and casual player if you would.

 

4 to 5 hours everyday is not frikkin casual gaming. Thats serious gaming, dam. Even 3 hours a day, everyday, for 5+ days a week is hitting the hard core catagory. This is my definition. I consider myself a casual gamer when it comes to warframe. I get maybe 5 to 10 hours a WEEK to play this game. So guess what? It will take me so many months to complete vauban that I probably wouldve left the game for another by then (for a few months, then return and see whats new and if its worth grinding for again. I left the game for a year becuse it got boring, I returned a few months ago.) You can also see that I almost never get the nitain alerts nor the catalyst or whatever alert on the weekend. I really thought those cat alerts were 24 hours on Sat or Sun.  

[Zhoyzu]

7 minutes ago, Bluejay235 said:

 

It's only a problem if you assume that new players are supposed to be able to get "All The Things".

I am a new player. I have been playing for about 3 weeks and just made MR5. I will not be able to get Vauban Prime. It's obvious to me that I am not intended to get Vauban Prime. I also don't care. There are plenty of things that I can get and more than enough gameplay for me to experience that not being able to get a few elite frames or weapons is not a concern.

From what I understand Vauban Prime isn't even a significant part of the later meta (maybe I am wrong?) so I don't even see how not getting this frame will affect my future game play.

There are SIGNIFICANT problems with this game for new players. Not having ANY clue what to do after finishing the first story quest is one. Not being able to progress in the main storyline because I can't unlock group missions on planets is another. Being given quests with no guidance that are almost impossible for new players to complete and that will actually hurt your game play (I am looking at you kubrows) is a third. Not being able to get EVERY SINGLE frame and weapon in the game is not a real problem.

Truth. I was finally able to get my friend into warframe. Things that have been second nature or without thought over the past three years (that we had to learn ourselves) are still not properly represented in new games. The sheer amount of things i had to explain to my friend that i once thought trivial was pretty astounding. Theres a significant difference between hand holding and pointing you in the right direction. Strangely enough the games that try to hold your hands are the easiest to learn. The games that dont even really point you in a direction can be intimidating but they also dont have over complicated systems to learn. After recently picking up my first dark souls game (DS3) and being afraid to cross every threshold and turn every corner for fear of getting my face caved in Game of thrones style (lol best part) it was a most refreshing experience.

Warframe is unfortunately has not found the middle ground. The gameplay is pretty straight forward and needs next to no hand holding and barely an introduction. However, its initially over complicated mod system is excessively overwhelming and needs definite guidance.

These are actual problems with the game, not players being upset they have to grind a material they thought they'd never need again.

[Robm]

6 hours ago, Madway7 said:

As for the Sibear I would disagree if they roll back the changes made to excavation. Untill then, yes getting Cryotic just takes longer now for no good reason other than to take longer.

The reason why I haven't done it.

[Zhoyzu]

7 minutes ago, T7Alpha said:

I believe you have struck the nail on the head; though I do not understand peoples need for mastery, it's not like we can become rank 69 :>.

to be fair and to my knowledge there hasnt been a new hammer type weapon in the game since magister. and before that it was fragor. We have tons of swords but only a few hammers. getting a new weapon, and one thats not been over saturated is pretty exciting. I do like the way it looks but ive not the nitain for it. Fortunately my much awaited fragor prime has arrived. Reliving the glory days.

[taiiat]

it's the Players' fault if they're playing the game wrong (as most are, relying on popular AFKFarming Missions as their version of Gameplay) and then they can't do anything in the game.
if you play the game correctly, there are no shortages of anything.

which as always, entails playing a variety of Missions, meaning you get a variety of Resources and Rewards. and then you have plenty of everything. howbout that.

 

the problem, as always with these complaints - is Players that do not play a variety of things in the game, and only play things when they are in a spot where the next thing they want to do absolutely forces them to play a certain type of Mission or such.
and then complain that they can't afford something within 30 minutes of Gameplay because they're frantically rushing to makeup for their own shortcomings.
plan ahead, or don't and face the consequences.

6 hours ago, tizodd said:

I totally agree that the shear amount of resources is way too high for new or more casual players.

perfect. because the two items in question that everyone is complaining about, are items aimed specifically away from New Players.

[-.SP.-G43riel]

6 hours ago, Violetear said:

Hello, mi name is Violetear and I have been part of the Warframe community since last autumn, I have experienced The Second Dream, three Prime Access and a variety of other things, but of that last batch the two most important are the Sibear and Vauban Prime.

 

With an astronomical cost of 30,000 Cryotic units to build the Sibear and 7,000 Oxium for Vauban Prime a conceptual problem in Warframe has come to light: the “endgame”.

 

yeah sure congrats, you played for so so longer than anyone... you sure have a lot of good reasons...

Maybe, just maybe, those things just aren't for you if are complaining like that, maybe you're not really the veteran you like to think you are.
But then again it´s not really that hard to farm any of those if you really want them.  

Also endgame is FashionFrame + Forums + Trademarket, there's no endgame.

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Don't see myself continuing this any further with you...

So, according to your logic, if anyone ever feels a build requirement is too high, then they are whiny and entitled and their opinion on the matter is nuts.  So, if DE makes the next frame need 400 Nitain (and there's a precedence set for that now, thanks Sibear) then you better agree that it's all fine and good or else you'll run afoul of your own rules.  Oh, and I appreciate that you think you know me and what I think better than I do.

I'll take those last words... Thank you kindly!

If you want an insight into my logic you should go and objectively read my first post. Expecting premium content to be easy/convenient to acquire is an unreasonable expectation.

Blaming others (DE or Vet players) for your hardship is "nuts". 

Ask yourself this: Are you blaming others for your plight? 

It's one thing to say, "Wow these material costs are really high!" "You think they could drop these some?"  as opposed to "It's (insert name here)'s fault these costs are so high... It's not fair!!!"

I haven't applied any other descriptors to the posts because that's personally demeaning. I have only asserted what I thought of the logic behind them.

14 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I'm glad that you have the ability to know everything I've said without actually looking at anything I've said.  Also, I'm not blaming DE in any sort of accusatory way.  I'm disagreeing with one of their choices.  It's funny how you try and frame things in a way to suit your agenda.

I don't have to have an insight into who you are or what you think. It's enough that you think you resemble the remark merely by virtue of the fact that you have chosen to take my opinion as a personal affront. You opted to be insulted at comments that were directed at a trend as opposed to any player or group of players in particular.

...Bless your heart.

15 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

No, it's not a double standard at all.  I've pointed out that your tactics are meant to silence.  Pointing out bad behavior is not as bad or worse than the bad behavior that led to it.

...Yes it is.  So you can harbor and spout an opinion but I don't have that right?  Double standard.

18 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

That's classic victim-blaming.  You have derided other tenno and it got pointed out.  Now, it's everyone else's fault because you can't figure out how to say things to others without being insulting?  No.

 Since my comments were directed at nothing other than the trend of posts on the forums. If you (whoever YOU are) got your feelings hurt by those comments, that is your problem. Not mine.

...This is because you personally and literally decided to take offense at something not directed at you... I can't control that.

I like how you played up the role of being a "victim" by separating those two lines though... That was cute.

32 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

It takes 15k and 4.5k to get halfway to Sibear and Vauban Prime respectively.  Not 3k.  So, no, you're wrong.

You could have funded the cryotic for half of both of them in the time you've be kvetching with just me.

...Go figure.

 

34 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Yes, and I do them.  I don't like the fact that it's the only way to obtain an item that is necessary in such large amounts.  Other resources require a location, but allow for a choice of mission type.  Cryotic does not.  And, I would take you up on the offer (not that I need help) but I'm on XB1 and I can tell that you're just being passive aggressive about it anyway.  If you were being conciliatory, that would have been a nice gesture, but you don't get to throw in a jibe while you're doing that and expect the other person to act like you're a saint now.

...See? I told you that you would take it as some sort of personal affront.

 

[T7Alpha]

2 minutes ago, -.SP.-G43riel said:

yeah sure congrats, you played for so so longer than anyone... you sure have a lot of good reasons...

Maybe, just maybe, those things just aren't for you if are complaining like that, maybe you're not really the veteran you like to think you are.
But then again it´s not really that hard to farm any of those if you really want them.  

Also endgame is FashionFrame + Forums + Trademarket, there's no endgame.

 

It's always so awkward when someone (you) blatantly misunderstands sarcasm.

[Serafim_94]

May I remind you that this is Vauban we are talking about. One of those pain-in-the-&#! to obtain frames. Some people can't get him after a few years of playing. Why would you think getting prime version should be easy?

[BlackCoMerc]

5 hours ago, DxAdder said:

 

7k Can be done just not in an hour, it takes time unless you already have the resources and right now finding farming groups right now isn't a problem.

As for the prime parts, you can grind for them or buy them for plat, would I buy them right now ? Nope there at there highest price right now but you could 

just go farm for other its that could be trade for plat then but what you want when the price drops.

 

 

Thanks for completely missing the point of my statement. 

If this were a matter of "just go farm" and eventually end up with what you want, I for one wouldn't mind. That was Warframe's guiding principle for a long while: Just play; the stuff you need will come in time. And that was fine, for a free to play game.

But that has all changed now.

NOW we are FORCED to run missions may not even LIKE or enjoy. Over and over again. For Cryotic. I mean, Excavation could be a fun mission. Except...its not. Its basically Mobile Defense on a larger map, with exponentially more enemies. It BEGS for Crowd Control cheese. Nothing tactical or strategic; just constant CC to get more Cryotic. 

Of course, even after that, we need to run T3 Survival - long after we are sick and tired of it - hoping in vain for that one Prime Part. 

There's nothing FUN or COMPELLING about this. Most of us dont enjoy it. NO ONE actually, really LIKES the reward tables the way they are. NO ONE. 

THAT was the point I was trying to make: DE has a whole, necessary underpinning to their game that literally NO ONE is actually enjoying. Some justify it; some make their peace with it, then cheese missions as quickly as possible while inwardly groaning at the idea of doing yet another T3 Survival. But NO ONE really LIKES it.

And that wont last. Eventually, you will begin losing players. 

[TheMultitude]

I don't know if anyone has said this yet, since I haven't read all 8 pages of the thread but does anyone remember when Zephyr was a pain to get? You know, before oxium drops got the x10 treatment. It took tons to do the research and then craft it. Took a while, but the farm was worth it and I can't remember anyone complaining too much about that at the time. I wasn't a forums regular back then though. 

I haven't even started my vauban grind yet but I know that I have around 5k oxium sitting in my invent ready to be used, accumulated from just playing for a while without using much of it. 

[-Temp0-]

7 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

This is not a problem at all. People are making a mountain out of nothing as usual.

You shouldn't be able to get the latest stuff without some grinding if you want it bloody free, or the game would die very fast. And don't say the grind will kill the game. Wf has always been  grind heavy and it's more popular than ever

The game will die way faster when from f2play (as it was adversited) it evolves in free_to_grind_until_you_bleed vs paytowin.

Quote

 Took a while, but the farm was worth it

Worth how exactly? Especially considering that Zephyr is one of the most useless frames, only a little better than Oberon or Hydroid.

There's also a reason why they raised oxium drop rate. It was exactly this.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, T7Alpha said:

But let's say they both build this weapon; then two weeks later a new one is released with 50k cryotic required; this time there should be no difference in how much effort it takes either of them to obtain that amount, as they both will have spent it all on the previous weapon.
I do think the stockpile spending excuse is phony, but I don't really think the resource grind is, at least they aren't saying 200 neurodes... imagine the RNG.

I honestly want something that cost 200 neurodes.

Im tired of having stockpiles of resources and would like a challenge. I want rresource boosters to matter again.

[V45H]

resource farming is really all i have left to do most of the time .-. otherwise im just killing senslessly and that actualy can be more boring

[(XBOX)rexicomm]

Well, I don't know the game's system very well, but this is something that seems to appear in most MMOs. In my opinion, these kind of items are not a problem, it's a good thing for player who have lots of resources or who enjoy gathering them. The game just cannot make only these kind of items, it should have some diversity.

[Hypernaut1]

32 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Thanks for completely missing the point of my statement. 

If this were a matter of "just go farm" and eventually end up with what you want, I for one wouldn't mind. That was Warframe's guiding principle for a long while: Just play; the stuff you need will come in time. And that was fine, for a free to play game.

But that has all changed now.

NOW we are FORCED to run missions may not even LIKE or enjoy. Over and over again. For Cryotic. I mean, Excavation could be a fun mission. Except...its not. Its basically Mobile Defense on a larger map, with exponentially more enemies. It BEGS for Crowd Control cheese. Nothing tactical or strategic; just constant CC to get more Cryotic. 

Of course, even after that, we need to run T3 Survival - long after we are sick and tired of it - hoping in vain for that one Prime Part. 

There's nothing FUN or COMPELLING about this. Most of us dont enjoy it. NO ONE actually, really LIKES the reward tables the way they are. NO ONE. 

THAT was the point I was trying to make: DE has a whole, necessary underpinning to their game that literally NO ONE is actually enjoying. Some justify it; some make their peace with it, then cheese missions as quickly as possible while inwardly groaning at the idea of doing yet another T3 Survival. But NO ONE really LIKES it.

And that wont last. Eventually, you will begin losing players. 

That's funny- judging by WFs success I would say most people actually enjoy the game.

WF is successful,  and its because of decisions made by DE. 

It's sad how most of you dont realize the very impatience and passion you're displaying in your rants is the REASON why you love the game and keep coming back. In 2-3 weeks time when you suck it up and craft Vauban anyway (despite how much fun you're "not" having) it will feel that much more satisfying and will feed your addiction even more.  So much so that you'll be right back here making another rant post about the next frame you cant "bear to farm for"

Edited May 19, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[T7Alpha]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

That's funny- judging by WFs success I would say most people actually enjoy the game.

WF is successful,  and its because of decisions made by DE. 

It's sad how most of you dont realize the very impatience and passion you're displaying in your rants is the REASON why you love the game and keep coming back. In 2-3 weeks time when you suck it up and craft Vauban anyway (despite how much fun you're "not" having) it will feel that much more satisfying and will feed your addiction even more.  So much so that you'll be right back here making another rant post about the next frame you cant "bear tp farm for"

I bet you loved dark souls....
I did; it's the reason I love warframe too :) 

[-Temp0-]

6 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

That's funny- judging by WFs success I would say most people actually enjoy the game.

WF is successful,  and its because of decisions made by DE. 

It's sad how most of you dont realize the very impatience and passion you're displaying in your rants is the REASON why you love the game and keep coming back. 

The reason why people keep coming back is they wasted half of their lives on this b*****t. 500, 1000, 2000 hours and more, and some wasted equal amount of money on this. Don't fool yourself saying that people enjoy all of this. Decent part of the players are just refuses to give up on it because they wasted so much effort on it to just drop and forget, even when it no longer even "fun" or anything like that.

[Tesseract7777]

28 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

The game will die way faster when from f2play (as it was adversited) it evolves in free_to_grind_until_you_bleed vs paytowin.

What's your reasoning for your statement? I gave a long tl;dr for mine multiple times over. Your reasoning is "I'm right your wrong". Please, explain yourself fully. 

Can you give me a detailed reason why Warframe is pay to win or becoming it? Because even the most hardened anti-grind folks usually vehemently disagree with WF being P2W -- whatever WF's faults are, that is not one of them. 

Two, yes it's free to play, but some people seem to think that money and funding just falls from the sky. Free to play means you have the option to not pay, but anyone who knows even the most cursory economics (not even taking a class, but just from basic life observation), knows that a game has to get money somehow or it won't stick around. And you can't rely just on cosmetics alone or you won't last long. I'm not saying you don't know this, I am saying you are currently somewhat glossing over that fact because it's an inconvenient truth. 

WF has one of the best models because 1) It's not pay to win and 2) you can get anything if you are willing to put in the work. 

WF has become more grinder over time, and WF has also become more popular at the same time. If your initial statement were correct, the opposite would be true (WF would be getting less popular), but that isn't the case. That means that the argument that "more grind = less players" does not hold up to scrutiny. 

If you give the whales buyers remorse your game will die. 

The vast majority of more casual players aren't that bothered by some things being difficult to get anyways. They understand that in all games effort should equal reward. That vet who could build the Sibear right away still had to put in the work at some point to get that resource. Effort = reward. In a F2P game if you aren't going to pay, you need to put in a lot of effort and work. This is the fairest model everywhere. 

I see a lot of complaining, but I don't see anyone offering a real solution. How do you make stuff super easy to get in a game that costs nothing, and still convince whales to spend money on it? Can you give me a way to do that and still keep the game funded for the kind of production values WF currently has? Because I haven't heard a way to do both those things at once yet, and I certainly can't think of one. Economics doesn't work like that. At some point, a lot of money has to be thrown down by someone. 

 

 

[S0V3REiGN]

16 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

The reason why people keep coming back is they wasted half of their lives on this b*****t. 500, 1000, 2000 hours and more, and some wasted equal amount of money on this. Don't fool yourself saying that people enjoy all of this. Decent part of the players are just refuses to give up on it because they wasted so much effort on it to just drop and forget, even when it no longer even "fun" or anything like that.

Assuming we are all still here because of sunk-cost fallacy it's disingenuous at best. I still like this game and I have other games that I have sunk literally over 1,000 hours and a ton of money in yet I am here instead. If that is the reason why you are still around then I feel bad for you.

Edited May 19, 2016 by S0V3REiGN