Dev Workshop Part 2: ...& more Warframe Changes.

[DuskLegendary]

11 minutes ago, Geraion said:

 

Then nerf enemy scaling as well. People have said this forever. But no, something else that's broken shouldn't be left that way, DE needs to listen to this complaint specifically. Or like someone else stated, change the way armor reduction works so we can scale up properly along with enemies. Having the threat of being murdered is fine, because then you have to play smarter the later in you get, which is fine, a challenge and skill required, good! But cheese mechanics should still be pruned. We just need either other universal mechanics (like different armor reduction etc) to scale with enemies, or their scaling needs to be capped in some areas.

 

2 wrongs don't make a right.

They really should fix this issue as soon as possible. How many times does enemy scaling have to be thrown around before something is to be done about it? How many complaints do we, as the player base, have to make about it before something is done and random nerfs that aren't really being asked for stop being passed around? Granted, Valkyr does need a few tweaks.

But do you have any idea how fast EB falls off even 50 minutes into a T3/T4 survival? It still does a lot of damage, sure it does. But guess what? Those mobs will 1 shot you at that point anyways. Blind Mirage? As cheesy as that is, we do need her for raids, especially during the second part. And now they want to nerf Trinity too? They want to nerf the only reliable healer in the game? She's needed on raids too to protect the entire team from getting one shot and dying. 

Look, I get it. When people are playing normal content, this stuff is just downright God like, very overpowered. But a lot of us don't just build for normal content, we go for end game. Locking down the map with one move isn't fun, but neither is getting one shot and having absolutely no defense against it at all besides cheese tacticts. So I ask, why is everyone so dang salty about these frames? They are not the core issue here, and many would agree.

I just feel like my words are falling on deaf ears here. I am not denying these things are a problem, I'm just saying that they're the product of a much much bigger problem that needs to be prioritized over these handful of broken abilities, then we wouldn't need these cheese tactics to begin with.

Edited May 27, 2016 by DuskLegendary

[Guest]

There are many more important stuff in this game that needs to be touched and fixed ASAP , other then pointless nerfing Mirage and Excalibur ... hands down

LIKE adding the actual servers for gameplay MAYBE ,IN 2016!!! ? instead of 1player hosting from god knows where ,and rest of my team suffer from high ping ...

Or fixing the DOORS that get players stuck ...maybe?

Or MASTERY RANKS purpose ,maybe?

Witcher 3 was in development for 3 years and it has everything

Warframe has kubrows  ...

AND so many potential geting wasted wasted

Edited May 27, 2016 by Guest

[Noteybook]

I hope these straight nerfs go along with enemies getting hard nerfed in the new starmap update, or I'm done playing. I've taken long breaks from Warframe before, but I'll just be done, because there is no point playing a game where a fun/useful aspect gets nerfed because we're supposedly running through missions too quickly.

 

Ash's bladestorm doesn't need touched. Blessing doesn't need touched. Prism didn't need touched, and functioned as needed for missions such as Law of Retribution. Exaulted blade functioned fine as is, and is actually fun to use, and gave me a reason to use Excal for just fun.

 

As usual, the core issue is not being touched, and just the loot caves are being touched. Why are people using this frames so often? Because they make missions easy, easier then other frames do. Why are people so desperate to be pigeonholed into frames that make things easier? Because of bad drop tables, and RNG that makes you do missions so often you see them in your sleep. I wish I could take the frames I wanted, but the game doesn't work like that. For X, Y, & Z high level/specific missions, I have to take certain frames, and have a certain team composition to make it work. Maybe instead of nerfing the ones that are useful, buff the ones that aren't used? 

 

As long as you avoid the problem DE, you will not make the community happy. Meet us in the middle. I'll take power nerfs if you can nerf enemies and fix drop-tables. Does that sound fair?

 

I'm sorry, but as a veteran player(Update 1, anyone?), starmap update really is make/break for me. I know a lot of people who feel the same way. DE, this is your chance to start to fix the huge, fundamental problems in your game.

[Twistedsparkle]

what about excaliburs 3 radial javelin? its not in all honesty very good atm loses its effectiveness very early on
maybe if it would reduce armor for armored targets and cause bleed for fleshy targets? or cause enemies to be immobile for a few seconds? (this effect would be kinda cool augment)

also radial blinds effectiveness is very inconsistent :( 

also very sad to see mirages blind nerfed
this was invaluable tool for endgame content I seriously hope it will remain that way despite the nerf but doubtful seeing how radial blind turned out to be
little bit adjustments to line of sight rule first might help

valkyrs hysteria now okay this really does need changes that is for guaranteed
however the proposed changes still dont sound very good IMO
why do you insist upon invincibility?

when I think of berserker frame I think something like wolverine from x-men
you know? extreme rapid healing? anyone?

this is how I would personally love to see valkyr
increased healing and damage when valkyr takes damage,kills and scales gains additional benefits from combo counter
and when inflicting finishers while in hysteria you could gain additional armor for the rest of the duration of the ability

with this change the aura thing is would also no longer needed and people dont have to build negative range builds in order to mitigate the dmg effect

also I think the stance needs cleaning up
its hard to control and its just tons of swirls I cant tell the difference of one combo from another especially with high attack speeds

of course as always this is simply my opinion I dont enforce this upon anyone
but its something to think as an option if people would be interested in it

certainly would be way more active that way

[Casardis]

If the blind is going to cost energy, can we make its usage optional? Crouch + tap melee to regular spin attack; crouch + hold melee to radial blind spin attack?

[Morty2989]

4 minutes ago, Noteybook said:

I'm sorry, but as a veteran player(Update 1, anyone?), starmap update really is make/break for me. I know a lot of people who feel the same way. DE, this is your chance to start to fix the huge, fundamental problems in your game.

Yeah, this is exactly where I am at. It's been years and years and I'm honestly out of "come on guys it won't be that bad!"

I'm not angry, none of the above mentioned frames are favorites or anything but it sets the tone for the entire game. Where devs are at and what they want as opposed to us playing who are down in the space trenches just bored out of our minds waiting for a 0.5% chance crumb to drop. 

The game was always fun for it excess, if all we're going to do is make everything boring again, well, good luck. Heaven forbid the ninja have a neat ninja move or the healer be good at healing. You can't pigeonhole players on one hand then gimp the tools they use to compensate with the other. 

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, Geraion said:

Heh, if Valkyr got this, ooooh the fanboy war between her and Chroma... Popcorn-worthy.

So, wait...

The fanboys, will be welding a War?, while fighting?

 

....What?...

 

[wtrmlnjuc]

As an excal main, I really don't mind these changes. I like them, actually. I get sad (and bothered) when I see people use Excal for nothing but turret mode. Only problem I have with it is the EB-RB costing 25 energy for what little it gives.

[--Nef-Anyo--]

2 hours ago, TheTundraTerror said:

So, let me get this straight, DE? I put a bunch of Forma into my frame to unlock it's full potential. You put Forma into the game for the sole purpose of getting more money unlocking the full potential of our frames (and weapons). So, we do that. We put all the time, effort, and resources to bring our frames to their fully realized potential... and then it all goes to waste as you sodomize my frame because someone who only plays 20 minutes of Survival or 20 waves of Defense threw a fit.
 

After spending 5 Forma in Mirage and 3 Forma into Trinity (with another 5 planned for Excal) only to realize that DE are basically going to skullf*** my entire work, I have no desire to play the game. I'm sick and tired of being bent over and screwed by developers over and over and over. If DE actually goes through with this nonsense, I'm done. That's it.

To the people who are celebrating this because "Oh, now it won't trivialize content" that was already trivial to begin with, play more than 40 minutes of T4S. The only thing that scales in this game is cheese.

Unfortunately risk for rewards does not exist so there is no need to go further than what you state which is why I agree with your statement. I've spoken many times about this before with other higher end players and they all say the same thing. The funny thing is though, DE likes to bring out prime mods to make you spam/more powerful even though you're still essentially fighting the same enemy level each and every day. The logic behind DE amazes me every time. 

[weezedog]

I will say that these changes are probably needed and long overdue, but still a bitter pill to swallow. There are definitely abilities that are way over powered. Trina and Ash do need looked at, everyone hates Bladestorm because it takes you out of the fight and it's just watching a cut scene. At this point I'd rather it just send clones out and not involve Ash, or make it way more interactive (but able to be cancelled, cause no one likes being stuck on that Ancient Disruptor you just can't kill)

[Dobermann92]

The changes are fine, at least there is no heavy nerf this time. About Mirage: More damage to her prism....oh boy, she is already a DPS frame, so this is very nice. The obvious line of site balance is a thing I can agree with. Valkyr stays invicible which is nice and I would like to know how high the cap for energy drain on Hysteria will be. Excalibur changes are a bit worrysome, and I think that the cost on his built in RB isn't needed because one could accidentally tap the button and lose some energy and it has a very small radius anyway.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Dobermann92

[Technologic141]

Mirage prism changes:
+ good for normal maps (interception) where some players block whole gameplay but not that much how it sound now. Most Interceptions is open maps
- mirage become useless for raids (with LoS there is no longer reason take her)
opinion: add prism sphere augument = enemies affected by prism sphere have 100% chance be afected by radiation for 50% of power duration.
Sphere will fix LoS loose and Mirage stay good for raids and will be builded for duration (that will boost other mods).

Valkyr Hysteria changes:
+ No longer unlimited hysteria runs (endless rathuum)
- ancient disruptor/nullifier deactivate hysteria that is mean instant deat for player (doesnt matter what mods you have) even with maxed narrow minded, aura will be 6,8m and that is sure dead. valkyr become useless agains infested/corpus.
opinion: Better that make valkyr useless, boost warcry and paralysis  = warcry now become aura (that will slow enemies near to you), have 2,5% life steal for every melee kill (that will help for short game mods where is life strike useles, on long play life strike is a must anyway), warcry is reducet by 50% when you step in nullifier bubble (worst moment when you play void or against corpus with melee. Every 5 sec is nullifier what deactivate your warcry forcing you to play with guns) better that 50% reduction for every entry will be fair punishment,, paralysis = have 20% chance deal radiation damage, paralysis have 5% chance disarm enemies (only 5% to prevent paralysis spam)

Excalibur exalted blade:
+ fairly balanced
- nothing
opinion: Very good changes

[Guest]

Just now, Technologic141 said:

Mirage prism changes:
+ good for normal maps (interception) where some players block whole gameplay but not that much how it sound now. Most Interceptions is open maps
- mirage become useless for raids (with LoS there is no longer reason take her)
opinion: add prism sphere augument = enemies affected by prism sphere have 100% chance be afected by radiation for 50% of power duration.
Sphere will fix LoS loose and Mirage stay good for raids and will be builded for duration (that will boost other mods).
 

whats the max number of rounds in T4 I that you played? 

[TyrannosauRayz]

Excalibro nerf is meh~

I main excalibur since I started playing waframe. Users on excalibro will go down cuz of the eb nerf. Blind and rj is now the good/s on excalibro. 

 

RIP EXALTED BLADE. We won't forget you. 

[--Nef-Anyo--]

39 minutes ago, Noteybook said:

I hope these straight nerfs go along with enemies getting hard nerfed in the new starmap update, or I'm done playing. I've taken long breaks from Warframe before, but I'll just be done, because there is no point playing a game where a fun/useful aspect gets nerfed because we're supposedly running through missions too quickly.

 

Ash's bladestorm doesn't need touched. Blessing doesn't need touched. Prism didn't need touched, and functioned as needed for missions such as Law of Retribution. Exaulted blade functioned fine as is, and is actually fun to use, and gave me a reason to use Excal for just fun.

 

As usual, the core issue is not being touched, and just the loot caves are being touched. Why are people using this frames so often? Because they make missions easy, easier then other frames do. Why are people so desperate to be pigeonholed into frames that make things easier? Because of bad drop tables, and RNG that makes you do missions so often you see them in your sleep. I wish I could take the frames I wanted, but the game doesn't work like that. For X, Y, & Z high level/specific missions, I have to take certain frames, and have a certain team composition to make it work. Maybe instead of nerfing the ones that are useful, buff the ones that aren't used? 

 

As long as you avoid the problem DE, you will not make the community happy. Meet us in the middle. I'll take power nerfs if you can nerf enemies and fix drop-tables. Does that sound fair?

 

I'm sorry, but as a veteran player(Update 1, anyone?), starmap update really is make/break for me. I know a lot of people who feel the same way. DE, this is your chance to start to fix the huge, fundamental problems in your game.

Nicely said. I'll wait myself and decide whether to carry on or just quit entirely, especially when farming resources for plastids and neural sensors seem to drop less and less of late. I need alot of plastids as we run alot of raids and the resource costs are a joke. If I'm farming more resources for hours on end to build some keys then its bye bye anyway as there's only raids for me to play and sorties does not interest me in the slightest. 

[Evanescent]

57 minutes ago, NightElve said:

DE has a problem from reading community feedback, correct me if im wrong but high ranked players are not fond of using Excal and Valkyr and if they happen to use it mostly then is to counter a broken scaling system, i actually perceived this frames were made for new or mid level players, to help them cope up with enemies as they level up, i personally don't use Valkyr and Excal(only on Draco) to some extent this changes were kind of uncalled for, (correct me if i'm wrong), and DE is better getting player feedback from the normal community Region chat, YouTube channels thats were pure honest reviews are spoken, without any bias-ness, Correct me if i'm wrong again, getting feedback from Forums seems damaging: Why? most players here are far... ranked up, and do seek endgame experience and challenges(topics here are far subjective), but the overall community should be brought into this to, it's like bagging 5 fruits and letting the other 40 roat.. ((my point there is a true contrast or preference gap to what goes in the Forums and the majority community)).

Not really.

You don't just have vets here, and contrary to what you think DE studies stats from the whole playerbase before making decisions.

Again, not really. Vets use whatever they feel like because they are mostly trying new builds, polishing old ones and sticking with the things they like while they wait for new updates. Granted, they have some frames they set aside for when they want to just get things over with, but that doesn't mean excalibur and valkyr are  always played the try-hard way. I don't know if you noticed, but vets use quite different builds on Excalibur and Valkyr than newer players going all auto on EB.  Valkyr has some powerful alternatives to her Hysteria as well.

I don't know where you got this idea that a vocal minority is "ruining Warframe" but I suggest you scrap it, pronto. That's just ignorant chatter.

[Urlan]

6 hours ago, ElGuirrix said:

So, basically on Mirage we lost trespassing walls, which makes sense for a blind, yet makes it be worth less than Radial Blind. That isn't a good idea.

Excalibur during EB just lost a reliable use of spin attack. I don't care about the blind. Spin attacks are a useful part of a combo with huge damage potential, now we're forced to spend extra energy for a core move and a blind that, if remains as weak as it is, will be worth nothing. If you impose 50% energy cost on it, give me a 50% effective Radial Blind. Not something less than 25% of it.

Valkyr, what to say, this wasn't a good way to go. Now you won't effectively be killing high level enemies in endless missions because you won't survive them face to face, and what's worse, running out of hysteria in an endless mission is now instant death if you take the damage, because enemies will be everywhere, and hiding won't be easy.

DE, you had a right idea on changing too OP skills, but this just limited those skills overall potential.

Radial Blind has had the same restriction since Viver was removed.

[Evanescent]

Just now, Evanescent said:

Not really.

You don't just have vets here, and contrary to what you think DE studies stats from the whole playerbase before making decisions.

Again, not really. Vets use whatever they feel like because they are mostly trying new builds, polishing old ones and sticking with the things they like while they wait for new updates. Granted, they have some frames they set aside for when they want to just get things over with, but that doesn't mean excalibur and valkyr are  always played the try-hard way. I don't know if you noticed, but vets use quite different builds on Excalibur and Valkyr than newer players going all auto on EB.  Valkyr has some powerful alternatives to her Hysteria as well.

I don't know where you got this idea that a vocal minority is "ruining Warframe" but I suggest you scrap it, pronto. That's just ignorant chatter.

Mistakenly posted. Continued:

These changes are very much called for: EB spam was getting obnoxious and I have actually heard a lot of people claim that Excalibur is not 'meant to be played as melee but for his range' which is fudging ridiculous. Excalibur is not an auto-turret. He is a swordsman, and these changes just make him more close-quarters. For players who already used him as a melee-frame, nothing changed.

Broken Scaling system it may be, but Valkyr's God-mode was just no-no. Now it's risk vs Reward, which makes her a more engaging frame than just press 4 and chill. 

[Slaviar]

18 minutes ago, TyrannosauRayz_13th said:

Excalibro nerf is meh~

I main excalibur since I started playing waframe. Users on excalibro will go down cuz of the eb nerf. Blind and rj is now the good/s on excalibro. 

 

RIP EXALTED BLADE. We won't forget you. 

Hey, slow down. I main Excalibur too and I'm against this nerf but we'll see how it turns out. Sure, he'll be weaker but he still may be able to kick &#!. Don't call priest just yet, he can still make it

[ensignvidiot]

So trinity is actually getting NERFED again.

 

She is literally a key component in all 3 trials because of her bless.

No other warframe or mod or ability can actually heal 8 Tenno as effectively. And no one else can buff damage resistance like she can.

 

The part I'm most angry about this, is that she alone will be nerfed, no healing frame will be buffed, and the problem that is enemy scaling will forever remain an unchanged issue.

 

[DuskLegendary]

3 minutes ago, ensignvidiot said:

So trinity is actually getting NERFED again.

 

She is literally a key component in all 3 trials because of her bless.

No other warframe or mod or ability can actually heal 8 Tenno as effectively. And no one else can buff damage resistance like she can.

 

The part I'm most angry about this, is that she alone will be nerfed, no healing frame will be buffed, and the problem that is enemy scaling will forever remain an unchanged issue.

 

Falling on deaf ears man. Everyone is just overjoyed about all of these nerfs, because apparently nobody here plays any end game content for the nerfs to really matter to them at all. Or at least, that's the vibe I'm getting, or they wouldn't be so happy about them. Why else would someone be happy about raids and nightmare raids becoming even harder than they already are? 

[Morty2989]

You know, at the end of the day between alertiam and all this talk about skimming through content too fast.. DE if I'm playing your game too much I can call the hundreds of dollars I have in this game a loss and go play something else.

[Multicom-EN-]

Have to say, the Exalted Blade change is very nice, and not really a nerf at all. Good balancing, hope it works out on release.

Looking good on the other things too.

[Noteybook]

Just now, DuskLegendary said:

Falling on deaf ears man. Everyone is just overjoyed about all of these nerfs, because apparently nobody here plays any end game content for the nerfs to really matter to them at all. Or at least, that's the vibe I'm getting, or they wouldn't be so happy about them. Why else would someone be happy about raids and nightmare raids becoming even harder than they already are? 

 

This pretty much.

I feel like I'm just like a grandparent that people are waiting for to die. Nothing I say matters, my thousands of hours playing don't matter, my input from a long-term perspective doesn't matter. I'm just being waited out so someone newer can take my spot, and so I can stop bothering everyone..

Sure, Bless seems OP in the starmap, but it's the only wait to make Raids or level enemy 60+ possible. Same for Prism. EB was fun as is, and made Excalibur, the poster boy of Warframe, actually fun to play.

I'm just saddened by the disconnect. Again and again Veteran players have reached out to DE with actual solutions to major game problems, but are ignored, and even ridiculed/banned. So what's the point of even saying anything, anymore. I'm going to be drowned out by people who don't play the game, who don't play these frames, and who won't hit the wall I've hit for another year or two minimum. And by then, more new people can take their place, and complain about how OP this or that frame is.. without having actual perspective of the game, from top to bottom.

[Zookes]

Mirage - Prism Changes
DE Proposed: LoS for Blind.
I recommend a change in Blind's overall usage in addition to LoS.
Perhaps make Blind into a controllable projectile (user is rooted, enemies are blinded) with a low energy cost that blinds everything in LoS while active, and damages enemies when deactivated (inverse of current operation). This will offer some utility and flexibility for mirage's blind, as opposed to being a less effective, more expensive, and longer cast version of Excal's.

I understand this nerf needs to happen for the sake of a playable T4I and to shake up trial meta, but what of the sleepfrog, Ivara?
Users are going to switch to her Sleep Arrow for spammable room-filling CC, and with the mirage Blind nerf, she could do it with fewer risks given Prowl and no LoS requirements. This will effectively bench Mirage except for simulor / tonkor spam, as Sleight of Hand and Eclipse are so situational as to be unattractive for any build's focus.
 

Valkyr - Hysteria Changes
DE Proposed: greater energy costs over time (ramp).
I recommend a gradual reduction of damage output instead.
I say let users have their invulnerable kitty mode for as long as they can sustain its predictable energy draw, but also let them become exhausted / deal less damage over time, which effectively reduces their energy replenishment capabilities without making the ability unwieldy.

The problem with higher energy costs, as opposed to lower damage output, is that the ability becomes volatile in its later stages and will be automatically disabled at inconvenient times in the fray (especially when fighting energy drain enemies). However, with lower damage output instead, the user could still maintain the ability's strongest aspect predictably (invulnerability), but they will still need to disengage and drop / recast hysteria to remain effective in combat. The timer still ticks down, but the behavior is more predictable. Predictability is important for user tools if you want them to be used at all.

Compare this to Wukong's Defy, which requires only marginally more maintenance by recasting every few "deaths" and offers an effective endgame god-mode in addition to usage of more effective weaponry (any primary, secondary, melee). Upon Valkyr being altered with greater energy costs, Tonkor Wukongs will simply take her place and the infinite god-mode cheese tactics will continue regardless.